Twilight Matriarch is overperforming

ecru

Aedaryl wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Well done OP, that pet is B R O K E N this recent few patches. No other burst heal in the game has basicly a built in Overwhelming Surge. Its free damage as if the magsorc needed more damage not to mention a meat shield and an insane burst heal. I believe removing the damage altogether is in line with other abilities where you choose between a heal or damage morph.

How a heal costing 2 slots and that can be killed with a cast time on a class with no healing passives can be balanced ?

And yes, magsorc need a strong dot to be competitive. The heal from twilight isn't insane : sorc have no healing passive and skills like coagulating blood, HoTD, ect heal for more. The heal is good, but not close to what other class in their respective healing toolkit can have.

Matriarch got buffed by about 30%. Before, no one used it. How remove comepletly the damage will make it balanced when 30% less damage made the skill unwanted ?

Note that in eylswer sorc using deadric prey got matriarch nerfed by 15%.

It's not a heal that costs two slots, it's a heal that costs one slot and the best dot in the game that costs another.

Dalsinthus

ecru wrote: »

Two ability slots for the best group heal and best/most consistent single target dot in the game doesn't really seem like something you should be complaining about.

I wasn’t complaining.

Undefwun

The issue with PvE/PvP balance is a problem...

I do both PvP and vet trial level PvE, before anyone drops the "PvPer always want nerfs... "...

I think ZOS should have:
a) balanced skills separately via Battle Spirit
b) balanced based on PvP from the get go, because then it would have been the standard and normal for this game.

I say that because if any ability is great for PvE no one cares, we all are on the same team there. No one is gonna come to the forum and complain their guildie is pulling their weight in a trial. "Oh man Timmy was a great with his pets, please nerf".. yeah nah..

If something over performs in PvP it is very noticeable fast. See how ppl flock to classes/builds when they over perform in PvP, often you can tell the shift a certain way within a week or so.
In general ppl are flops and all about the easiest path to kills and wins, even if it is unbalanced overall.

The Destro/SnB Matriarch pet build is one of the strongest builds out there right now. Watch some of the good players 1vX not just potatoes on those. The heals are very strong, the pets put out a ton of free damage (2-4k or more on squishies, is not uncommon per zap), never mind the free stealth detection they have for no good reason.

I was running a ward-less, pet-less mag sorc before this patch (resto ulti change has made it tough now), but my damage output was crazy, you land that combo well and pop goes the opponent. Combine that output with the much easier play style of the high resistance, high heal, high free damage builds that sorcs are running now and mag sorc is definitely close to if not the top dog in PvP atm.

In the absence of ZOS separating PvE and PvP balance, IMO the Matriarch morphs should be either heal or damage, not both. For high end content you have your healers (inc sorc healers), so your dps should not suffer (pet sorc should be a viable DPS class) and in PvP it would be less over powered class.

Aedaryl

ecru wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Well done OP, that pet is B R O K E N this recent few patches. No other burst heal in the game has basicly a built in Overwhelming Surge. Its free damage as if the magsorc needed more damage not to mention a meat shield and an insane burst heal. I believe removing the damage altogether is in line with other abilities where you choose between a heal or damage morph.

How a heal costing 2 slots and that can be killed with a cast time on a class with no healing passives can be balanced ?

And yes, magsorc need a strong dot to be competitive. The heal from twilight isn't insane : sorc have no healing passive and skills like coagulating blood, HoTD, ect heal for more. The heal is good, but not close to what other class in their respective healing toolkit can have.

Matriarch got buffed by about 30%. Before, no one used it. How remove comepletly the damage will make it balanced when 30% less damage made the skill unwanted ?

Note that in eylswer sorc using deadric prey got matriarch nerfed by 15%.

It's not a heal that costs two slots, it's a heal that costs one slot and the best dot in the game that costs another.

I was reacting to the player asking to remove complety the damage from matriarch.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Just do what they did to funnel, half the damage of the healing morph. Simple.

NordSwordnBoard

I'd like to see some adjustments to the mechanics before any nerfs. Fix how they teleport when the Sorc streaks or changes heights drastically. If you stun a pet, it sits there CC'd then disappears if the sorc gets a certain distance from it. I know there were pathing problems in the past, but what to do with a pet that's left behind? Stunning the Matriarch can deny heals for a small window, the (unintentional?) counter to that should not be causing it to teleport to safety despite being under CC.

Make the Matriarch smaller. Bigger than a Nixad, but smaller than current. If it's smaller, it could create open space to target the Sorc between the Scamp below and the Matriarch above. The LOS issues are a crutch that needs to be tossed aside before any nerfs. Imagine if Wardens could hide behind a big fat jellyfish that covered 2/3 of their hit box in addition to the bear.

Please change the mechanics before nerf attempts so PvP and PvE don't blame each other and builds don't get shelved.

Undefwun

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Just do what they did to funnel, half the damage of the healing morph. Simple.

What about path though, they made one healing, one damage...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Undefwun wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Just do what they did to funnel, half the damage of the healing morph. Simple.

What about path though, they made one healing, one damage...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument

first off, twilight does damage in all morphs, ulike path. path is a just speed buff first, unmorphed. then you can choose to add damage or healing to it. Strife is closer to the morph options of the twilight.

now that i think about it, a more apt comparison is Stonefist, the base morph does damage. all morphs do damage but the healing version does much less then the extra damage morph.

karekiz

Simple fix:
Tormentor:
Increases your damage done against enemies by 1% for every 10% current Health they have.

Non active purely passive.

Lets face it Tormentor is a Clunky AF skill. You hit when the mob is over 50% hp then never bother hitting it again. Just make it passive, buff the damage a tad more than "50" and more sorcs would use it.

Or rework the tormentor all together.

WrathOfInnos

KurtAngle2 wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

In a world of 30k every half second necrobashes, we still want to nerf sorc... SMH

The calls for nerfs are endless here. I wish it would stop, but I know it won't.

This was not a call for nerfs, but for a re-balance of an overperforming skill. And if you would read the post you would see that it would in fact be a buff to Sorcerer healers.

I read your post several times before I posted.

I play a pet sorc as one of my most frequently played characters and have for several years, through updates where pets were strong and updates where pets were weak. You say you'd like a "re-balance" but this would be a nerf to my character.

The twilight is a good skill that gives some damage, a nice heal, and draws some enemy fire. It also takes two of my 10 skill slots and costs a lot of magic to cast. It's the only heal I have on my dps - I literally can't afford any other skill slots for healing and the sorc kit doesn't offer much else. I pvp and run dungeons where healers are not always reliable; without twilight (and with my heavily nerfed shields), my character is going to die a lot.

The "re-balance" you are calling for comes on top of a dizzying number of changes that have come to this class in the recent past. I'm tired of the changes and tired of the constant calls for nerfs on these forums.

So I understood your post just fine, but I strongly disagree with your point.

1) Some damage is more like 20/25% of your total damage done for free with no attention whatsoever.
2) Costs a lot of magic to cast: 3510 Magicka, Breath of Life is a much worse skill now and yet costs 4590 Magicka
3) It's the only heal I have on my dps sure (as if Stamina players have many more heals othen than Vigor and Rally for Major Brutality mostly), but you're discounting Streak, Shields AND Targeting issues.

Accept the fact that Matriarch has no reason to have such a huge damage AND huge healing, choose one.

I disagree with point 1. For an end-game Sorc build, the Matriarch does less than 10% of DPS. And this is with the buff from Daedric Prey, with Haunting Curse, the Matriarch is caps out around 7%. If anyone is seeing 20-25% from the pet, then it is likely a problem with the rest of their build, and they should be happy that it is helping to raise the DPS floor.

Now by using Daedric Prey, you are casting Curse every 6s instead of every 12s, so effectively you are adding one additional skill into the rotation every 12s (requiring some attention), as well as taking up two bar slots (call it one for a heal, and one for a DoT). If given the option, I would gladly trade the Matriarch for Vamp Bane and Breath of Life.

norrisnick

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Just do what they did to funnel, half the damage of the healing morph. Simple.

If they made the matriarch like funnel and the tormentor like swallow soul (more dmg but only heal you). I'd be more than thrilled.

SupremeRissole

Aedaryl wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Well done OP, that pet is B R O K E N this recent few patches. No other burst heal in the game has basicly a built in Overwhelming Surge. Its free damage as if the magsorc needed more damage not to mention a meat shield and an insane burst heal. I believe removing the damage altogether is in line with other abilities where you choose between a heal or damage morph.

How a heal costing 2 slots and that can be killed with a cast time on a class with no healing passives can be balanced ?

And yes, magsorc need a strong dot to be competitive. The heal from twilight isn't insane : sorc have no healing passive and skills like coagulating blood, HoTD, ect heal for more. The heal is good, but not close to what other class in their respective healing toolkit can have.

Matriarch got buffed by about 30%. Before, no one used it. How remove comepletly the damage will make it balanced when 30% less damage made the skill unwanted ?

Note that in eylswer sorc using deadric prey got matriarch nerfed by 15%.

I have no issue with the heal it encourages group play,sorc healers and most importantly it gives sorc the burst heal it needs.
The issue is the damage, yes it takes up two slots, but realisticly its free damage its not a dot that needs to be tracked it, its not like if the opponent dodges the zap you lose the magicka you spent casting the ability because its free damage.
If you think magsorc needs a strong dot to be competitive in pvp then you arent playing a magsorc right.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

norrisnick wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Just do what they did to funnel, half the damage of the healing morph. Simple.

If they made the matriarch like funnel and the tormentor like swallow soul (more dmg but only heal you). I'd be more than thrilled.

i would like to reframe the discussion and make it about comparing stone fist and the twilight, they are much close in function.

Evito

Matriarch is fine, it's the Tormentor that's weak..

I'll just take a guess though: ZOS will nerf the matriarch and leave the tormentor as it is - a useless 'dummy parse only" morph...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.

Strider__Roshin

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.

I think pets need a massive damage nerf. The fact that the two strongest builds are also the two most mindless ones is ridiculous. I'm referring to the necro bash and pet sorc builds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Daus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.

I think pets need a massive damage nerf. The fact that the two strongest builds are also the two most mindless ones is ridiculous. I'm referring to the necro bash and pet sorc builds.

If the nerf is massive, then nobody will be able to justify the bar space. I agree that double pet builds are very strong in PVP, but there are certainly ways to deal with them. A sorc running double pets just doesnt have a lot of space left on their bars.

In PVE, almost nobody runs 2 pets despite the fact that it is technically BIS magic DPS. 1 pet sorc is basically on par with magplar, and magplar rotation is objectively easier. Other than the mini trials, sorcs are there as a backup healer or a mechanic monkey. Sorcs are perhaps slightly overtuned in PVE, but its pretty slight.

ecru

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KurtAngle2 wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

In a world of 30k every half second necrobashes, we still want to nerf sorc... SMH

The calls for nerfs are endless here. I wish it would stop, but I know it won't.

This was not a call for nerfs, but for a re-balance of an overperforming skill. And if you would read the post you would see that it would in fact be a buff to Sorcerer healers.

I read your post several times before I posted.

I play a pet sorc as one of my most frequently played characters and have for several years, through updates where pets were strong and updates where pets were weak. You say you'd like a "re-balance" but this would be a nerf to my character.

The twilight is a good skill that gives some damage, a nice heal, and draws some enemy fire. It also takes two of my 10 skill slots and costs a lot of magic to cast. It's the only heal I have on my dps - I literally can't afford any other skill slots for healing and the sorc kit doesn't offer much else. I pvp and run dungeons where healers are not always reliable; without twilight (and with my heavily nerfed shields), my character is going to die a lot.

The "re-balance" you are calling for comes on top of a dizzying number of changes that have come to this class in the recent past. I'm tired of the changes and tired of the constant calls for nerfs on these forums.

So I understood your post just fine, but I strongly disagree with your point.

1) Some damage is more like 20/25% of your total damage done for free with no attention whatsoever.
2) Costs a lot of magic to cast: 3510 Magicka, Breath of Life is a much worse skill now and yet costs 4590 Magicka
3) It's the only heal I have on my dps sure (as if Stamina players have many more heals othen than Vigor and Rally for Major Brutality mostly), but you're discounting Streak, Shields AND Targeting issues.

Accept the fact that Matriarch has no reason to have such a huge damage AND huge healing, choose one.

I disagree with point 1. For an end-game Sorc build, the Matriarch does less than 10% of DPS. And this is with the buff from Daedric Prey, with Haunting Curse, the Matriarch is caps out around 7%. If anyone is seeing 20-25% from the pet, then it is likely a problem with the rest of their build, and they should be happy that it is helping to raise the DPS floor.

Now by using Daedric Prey, you are casting Curse every 6s instead of every 12s, so effectively you are adding one additional skill into the rotation every 12s (requiring some attention), as well as taking up two bar slots (call it one for a heal, and one for a DoT). If given the option, I would gladly trade the Matriarch for Vamp Bane and Breath of Life.

It's like ~20% in a lot of pvp situations. 10% in pve is huge too, since the matriarch does it's thing without you doing anything or having to use any abilities. No other class gets that.

When I look at the parses from a petsorc in my guild, who IMO is one of the best if not the best petsorc in the game (in pve), they're like 7-11% from the matriarch. It might be less on a target dummy, but what makes it so good in an actual trial is the fact that the matriarch doesn't ever stop. If for some reason you can't dps (have to res, shield, heal, move, whatever), the pet is still doing it's thing. If you traded the matriarch for either of those, you'd be losing a substantial amount of dps.

I don't really have a solution and don't really want to see anyone nerfed (in pve), but no other magicka class can really compete due to that permanent uptime on the matriarch zap. If petsorc is the intended ceiling for magicka dps, no one else can really get close in an actual trial situation, which really sucks for everyone who isn't a petsorc/wants to play magicka, since it puts them in a tough situation where if they want to be as valuable to their group as possible, they'd be playing a petsorc.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

ecru wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KurtAngle2 wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

In a world of 30k every half second necrobashes, we still want to nerf sorc... SMH

The calls for nerfs are endless here. I wish it would stop, but I know it won't.

This was not a call for nerfs, but for a re-balance of an overperforming skill. And if you would read the post you would see that it would in fact be a buff to Sorcerer healers.

I read your post several times before I posted.

I play a pet sorc as one of my most frequently played characters and have for several years, through updates where pets were strong and updates where pets were weak. You say you'd like a "re-balance" but this would be a nerf to my character.

The twilight is a good skill that gives some damage, a nice heal, and draws some enemy fire. It also takes two of my 10 skill slots and costs a lot of magic to cast. It's the only heal I have on my dps - I literally can't afford any other skill slots for healing and the sorc kit doesn't offer much else. I pvp and run dungeons where healers are not always reliable; without twilight (and with my heavily nerfed shields), my character is going to die a lot.

The "re-balance" you are calling for comes on top of a dizzying number of changes that have come to this class in the recent past. I'm tired of the changes and tired of the constant calls for nerfs on these forums.

So I understood your post just fine, but I strongly disagree with your point.

1) Some damage is more like 20/25% of your total damage done for free with no attention whatsoever.
2) Costs a lot of magic to cast: 3510 Magicka, Breath of Life is a much worse skill now and yet costs 4590 Magicka
3) It's the only heal I have on my dps sure (as if Stamina players have many more heals othen than Vigor and Rally for Major Brutality mostly), but you're discounting Streak, Shields AND Targeting issues.

Accept the fact that Matriarch has no reason to have such a huge damage AND huge healing, choose one.

I disagree with point 1. For an end-game Sorc build, the Matriarch does less than 10% of DPS. And this is with the buff from Daedric Prey, with Haunting Curse, the Matriarch is caps out around 7%. If anyone is seeing 20-25% from the pet, then it is likely a problem with the rest of their build, and they should be happy that it is helping to raise the DPS floor.

Now by using Daedric Prey, you are casting Curse every 6s instead of every 12s, so effectively you are adding one additional skill into the rotation every 12s (requiring some attention), as well as taking up two bar slots (call it one for a heal, and one for a DoT). If given the option, I would gladly trade the Matriarch for Vamp Bane and Breath of Life.

It's like ~20% in a lot of pvp situations. 10% in pve is huge too, since the matriarch does it's thing without you doing anything or having to use any abilities. No other class gets that.

When I look at the parses from a petsorc in my guild, who IMO is one of the best if not the best petsorc in the game (in pve), they're like 7-11% from the matriarch. It might be less on a target dummy, but what makes it so good in an actual trial is the fact that the matriarch doesn't ever stop. If for some reason you can't dps (have to res, shield, heal, move, whatever), the pet is still doing it's thing. If you traded the matriarch for either of those, you'd be losing a substantial amount of dps.

I don't really have a solution and don't really want to see anyone nerfed (in pve), but no other magicka class can really compete due to that permanent uptime on the matriarch zap. If petsorc is the intended ceiling for magicka dps, no one else can really get close in an actual trial situation, which really sucks for everyone who isn't a petsorc/wants to play magicka, since it puts them in a tough situation where if they want to be as valuable to their group as possible, they'd be playing a petsorc.

I wonder if the solution is to lower the base damage, but perhaps buff the Prey magnifier. Keep the peak damage the same, but make it so you are penalized more severely for poor Prey uptime.

You could even shorten the duration of Prey (probaly nerf the boom at the end a bit), so its more difficult to keep up. Although, sorcs already have a proc skill to juggle. Probably wouldnt be welcomed by the those near the floor, that is for sure. That also might feel like a buff in PVP which would be an issue.

satanio

ecru wrote: »

At the high end, where player skill is going to have the least amount of variance, petsorcs are basically in a class of their own. Petsorc was already the best dps in Murkmire, and then it was.. buffed in Elsweyr? Why? And why were other magicka classes left behind? And why is magicka necromancer so far behind? Again, I don't care how much absolute dps petsorcs are doing, I care that other magicka dps are getting the short end of the stick and dragging down their.

Pets in general are bugged. They are not affected by some “increase dmg by %” passives. For example: temporary pets(archer, bbones, atronach) are not affected by Ancient Knowledge passive from Destro skill line. Same goes for DW/2h sword passive.

Next, All types of pets are not affected by bloodthirsty jewellery.

And maybe there are more...

So there, mag necro dps can get some boost just with PET fixes.

Massacre_Wurm

Yup , being able to work as healer in dungeons just using matriarch on dd toon is lame.

So.....BUFF breath of life ))

BNOC

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.

I think pets need a massive damage nerf. The fact that the two strongest builds are also the two most mindless ones is ridiculous. I'm referring to the necro bash and pet sorc builds.

If the nerf is massive, then nobody will be able to justify the bar space. I agree that double pet builds are very strong in PVP, but there are certainly ways to deal with them. A sorc running double pets just doesnt have a lot of space left on their bars.

In PVE, almost nobody runs 2 pets despite the fact that it is technically BIS magic DPS. 1 pet sorc is basically on par with magplar, and magplar rotation is objectively easier. Other than the mini trials, sorcs are there as a backup healer or a mechanic monkey. Sorcs are perhaps slightly overtuned in PVE, but its pretty slight.

Nobody good will be able to justify the bar space, as in, nobody that can produce their own damage without pets.

Weaker players that can't deal their own damage or simple positioning etc will still benefit from the used bar space, they just won't be getting as much for so little.

Genuinely good sorcs will carry on being very competitive.

Emma_Overload

BNOC wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.

I think pets need a massive damage nerf. The fact that the two strongest builds are also the two most mindless ones is ridiculous. I'm referring to the necro bash and pet sorc builds.

If the nerf is massive, then nobody will be able to justify the bar space. I agree that double pet builds are very strong in PVP, but there are certainly ways to deal with them. A sorc running double pets just doesnt have a lot of space left on their bars.

In PVE, almost nobody runs 2 pets despite the fact that it is technically BIS magic DPS. 1 pet sorc is basically on par with magplar, and magplar rotation is objectively easier. Other than the mini trials, sorcs are there as a backup healer or a mechanic monkey. Sorcs are perhaps slightly overtuned in PVE, but its pretty slight.

Nobody good will be able to justify the bar space, as in, nobody that can produce their own damage without pets.

Weaker players that can't deal their own damage or simple positioning etc will still benefit from the used bar space, they just won't be getting as much for so little.

Genuinely good sorcs will carry on being very competitive.

The fact that people are complaining about pets in PvP means that they are finally working correctly after 5 years of mediocrity. If you nerf pets now, I don't even want them at all. Re-work the Daedric Summoning line or give us something else completely different!

BNOC

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.

I think pets need a massive damage nerf. The fact that the two strongest builds are also the two most mindless ones is ridiculous. I'm referring to the necro bash and pet sorc builds.

If the nerf is massive, then nobody will be able to justify the bar space. I agree that double pet builds are very strong in PVP, but there are certainly ways to deal with them. A sorc running double pets just doesnt have a lot of space left on their bars.

In PVE, almost nobody runs 2 pets despite the fact that it is technically BIS magic DPS. 1 pet sorc is basically on par with magplar, and magplar rotation is objectively easier. Other than the mini trials, sorcs are there as a backup healer or a mechanic monkey. Sorcs are perhaps slightly overtuned in PVE, but its pretty slight.

Nobody good will be able to justify the bar space, as in, nobody that can produce their own damage without pets.

Weaker players that can't deal their own damage or simple positioning etc will still benefit from the used bar space, they just won't be getting as much for so little.

Genuinely good sorcs will carry on being very competitive.

The fact that people are complaining about pets in PvP means that they are finally working correctly after 5 years of mediocrity. If you nerf pets now, I don't even want them at all. Re-work the Daedric Summoning line or give us something else completely different!

What's wrong with mediocre though? That what balanced is, right?

What's wrong with it is that most players aren't interested in mediocrity; they're interested in getting the most rewards for the least effort and right now, pet's are arguably at the forefront of that again.

BoL/ HtD for example is a mediocre heal but I'd swap out any ability on my front bar to double bar it if it summoned a golden knight that offered me (sometimes broken) LOS, could be triggered for multiple direction-ignoring heals and done the same damage as a 5 piece proc set like OS from range, because that would be silly strong, especially if I had the ranged burst damage potential of a free casting sorc.

I'm by no means opposed to a rework but I can't agree with "working correctly".

Beardimus

Dalsinthus wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

In a world of 30k every half second necrobashes, we still want to nerf sorc... SMH

The calls for nerfs are endless here. I wish it would stop, but I know it won't.

Dalsinthus wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

In a world of 30k every half second necrobashes, we still want to nerf sorc... SMH

The calls for nerfs are endless here. I wish it would stop, but I know it won't.

Dalsinthus wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

In a world of 30k every half second necrobashes, we still want to nerf sorc... SMH

The calls for nerfs are endless here. I wish it would stop, but I know it won't.

Agree. You get a lull, then boom they are back. And generally about sorcs. The more recent flavour is people who 'play' sorcs, or hoped in a Battleground for the first Time on a sorc and became chuck Norris, or who had sorc for ten minutes and became emperor thus they need a Nerf.

Etc etc

The last lot of calls to Nerf sorc didn't work out so well for the Nerf sorc crue, wards critting in essence made us less glass cannon because of the forced adjustment

At this point i just yawn. And to be fair to this OP it's less Nerf sorc more adjust morphs.

But saying Tormentor doesn't add damage is incorrect, its juicey burst in PvP (looking at you @Emma_Overload!) and certain adds DPS to my dummy runs. Can't be using it right

The_Lex

If ZOS would revert the healing ward nerf, I would drop the Matriarch in PvP in a hot second.

Undefwun

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.

curse reach frag and fury... all the essentials of sorc burst (the same if you ran pet less) fit comfortably on the front bar even with double barring the matriach. Pelican one of the strongest mag sorcs on PC NA who was (afaik but i could be wrong) one of the earliest adopters of this build doesn't even bother to slot fury (you can find his build vid on YT).

I am not saying nerf the damage or nerf the heal.. I am saying one morph for each and you PICK.... one or the other... just you don't get to have both. For PvE doesn't matter, overland is a joke and in difficult content you have a healer, your dps will be fine. In PvP you don't need the extra dmg from the pet. The heal alone will make it worth it.

Also most sorcs won't just let you stroll up and kill their pet... usually if you target the pet they'll hit you with the above combination of skills while you are hacking away at the ward protecting the pet.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

The fact that people are complaining about pets in PvP means that they are finally working correctly after 5 years of mediocrity. If you nerf pets now, I don't even want them at all. Re-work the Daedric Summoning line or give us something else completely different!

So it's either "broken and OP" or "nothing", balance not of interest, got it... smh
Are you really saying that mag sorcs can't push out plenty damage without the free damage from the matriach?

They just fixed Incap and Surprise Attack and rightly so, and all the SaltBlades said the class is now dead, guess what still plenty strong Stamblades out there packing people up.

yodased

Everyone is saying noone else gets something that passively damages but everyone is forgetting about flames of oblivion.

Same exact thing but single barred with a passive spell crit and then you get a damage morph or a heal morph.

The only difference is you can't kill my little fireball, it doesn't count as a summon and it doesn't block my hitbox.

I think the biggest issue with pet sorcs is the fact that they can hide behind them, thats really it.

The skills themselves are properly tuned in my opinion, you have to make significant choices to run a petsorc, and you are beholden to those pets, so they again, in my opinion, should be stronger than a single bar skill.

DPS doesn't really matter in pvp, like if you are parsing in pvp its for epeen. You pop or you don't in this game, long drawn out fights are very few and far between, mostly going to get interrupted by other players or other external factors.

If you could somehow remove the ability to path behind the pets, maybe make the pets not tab targetable so only the player can be or something, but not everyone tab targets an that would screw console.

I think if they could reduce that, get rid of hide-n-seek with pets, there would be a lot less complaining in pvp.

It's just so frustrating to fight a double pet sorc who is tagging you and running behind their pets then they get a proc summon and you get 3 or 4 pets to deal with while they giggle because you can't get to them.

Keep your pets, thats fine, but every single one of you know that being able to path behind them is not a fair fight.

Emma_Overload

I'd be fine with making them untargetable, BUT... they need to do the same thing to the Werewolf dogs, too!

@Undefwun People are grossly exaggerating the damage the Twilight does compared to other builds. There are plenty of other specs that do more continuous damage than a Pet Sorc and are tankier, too. Even with my dedicated Zap build using the Tormentor Twilight morph, if I stand toe to toe with a Master's Axe Stamplar and we both unload at the same time, I'm gonna die before he does. Mag Sorcs are wearing light armor, remember? It's over 2 seconds between zap, BTW. There are Stamblades running around that can kill any Sorc in less time than that.

WrathOfInnos

ecru wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KurtAngle2 wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

In a world of 30k every half second necrobashes, we still want to nerf sorc... SMH

The calls for nerfs are endless here. I wish it would stop, but I know it won't.

This was not a call for nerfs, but for a re-balance of an overperforming skill. And if you would read the post you would see that it would in fact be a buff to Sorcerer healers.

I read your post several times before I posted.

I play a pet sorc as one of my most frequently played characters and have for several years, through updates where pets were strong and updates where pets were weak. You say you'd like a "re-balance" but this would be a nerf to my character.

The twilight is a good skill that gives some damage, a nice heal, and draws some enemy fire. It also takes two of my 10 skill slots and costs a lot of magic to cast. It's the only heal I have on my dps - I literally can't afford any other skill slots for healing and the sorc kit doesn't offer much else. I pvp and run dungeons where healers are not always reliable; without twilight (and with my heavily nerfed shields), my character is going to die a lot.

The "re-balance" you are calling for comes on top of a dizzying number of changes that have come to this class in the recent past. I'm tired of the changes and tired of the constant calls for nerfs on these forums.

So I understood your post just fine, but I strongly disagree with your point.

1) Some damage is more like 20/25% of your total damage done for free with no attention whatsoever.
2) Costs a lot of magic to cast: 3510 Magicka, Breath of Life is a much worse skill now and yet costs 4590 Magicka
3) It's the only heal I have on my dps sure (as if Stamina players have many more heals othen than Vigor and Rally for Major Brutality mostly), but you're discounting Streak, Shields AND Targeting issues.

Accept the fact that Matriarch has no reason to have such a huge damage AND huge healing, choose one.

I disagree with point 1. For an end-game Sorc build, the Matriarch does less than 10% of DPS. And this is with the buff from Daedric Prey, with Haunting Curse, the Matriarch is caps out around 7%. If anyone is seeing 20-25% from the pet, then it is likely a problem with the rest of their build, and they should be happy that it is helping to raise the DPS floor.

Now by using Daedric Prey, you are casting Curse every 6s instead of every 12s, so effectively you are adding one additional skill into the rotation every 12s (requiring some attention), as well as taking up two bar slots (call it one for a heal, and one for a DoT). If given the option, I would gladly trade the Matriarch for Vamp Bane and Breath of Life.

It's like ~20% in a lot of pvp situations. 10% in pve is huge too, since the matriarch does it's thing without you doing anything or having to use any abilities. No other class gets that.

When I look at the parses from a petsorc in my guild, who IMO is one of the best if not the best petsorc in the game (in pve), they're like 7-11% from the matriarch. It might be less on a target dummy, but what makes it so good in an actual trial is the fact that the matriarch doesn't ever stop. If for some reason you can't dps (have to res, shield, heal, move, whatever), the pet is still doing it's thing. If you traded the matriarch for either of those, you'd be losing a substantial amount of dps.

I don't really have a solution and don't really want to see anyone nerfed (in pve), but no other magicka class can really compete due to that permanent uptime on the matriarch zap. If petsorc is the intended ceiling for magicka dps, no one else can really get close in an actual trial situation, which really sucks for everyone who isn't a petsorc/wants to play magicka, since it puts them in a tough situation where if they want to be as valuable to their group as possible, they'd be playing a petsorc.

@ecru I still maintain that there is significant opportunity cost in running the pet, 2 bar slots and casting Curse twice as often. There’s a large difference in the complexity of a rotation with Curse every 6s (lining up with nothing else) vs Curse every 12s (lining up with Liquid Lightning).

You’re right about the pet being able to DPS while the Sorc is rezzing, but I don’t think we should be balancing classes around the ability to effectively rez allies. Otherwise Templar and Necro would be considered the best, and everyone would wear Kagrenacs.

Personally I don’t see the Matriarch doing more than 10% in PVE, but I suppose it could happen if events interrupt the rotation and prevent use of other skills. We’re getting to the point of debating within a couple % how much damage it can do, but I’ll post the best example I’ve seen. AFAIK this it the highest Mag Sorc single target on Yolnakriin HM. The Matriarch was 9.0% of his single target at 5740 DPS, and around 8% of overall AoE damage.



And for your final point, I don’t really see any group pressure to force all Magicka DPS onto pet Sorc. In my groups at least, they want everyone to be playing Stamcro. And I’m now the only one playing any form of Mag DPS.

IMO Magplar and Magsorc are actually pretty balanced right now, both in damage and utility. The only reason I don’t bring Magplar to more raids is the lack of Minor Prophecy. I do agree that the other Mag classes need some help though, and I don’t think nerfing Sorc pets would benefit them at all. More likely it would only make the Stam meta more mandatory.