Twilight Matriarch is overperforming
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Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭A skill which functioned similarly, but received a rework, is the Path of Darkness skill and its morphs from the Nightblade toolkit. Previously, one of the things that made Magblades outperform was the fact that one of their skills provided both high damage as well as healing (not only for themselves, but for their group). The skill has now been reworked so that Magblades have to choose between a morph that will either 1) Provide damage or 2) Provide healing. Not both.
This comparison is overly simplified though.
When ZOS took a pass at magblade healing, they had an incredible 3 skills providing healing essentially for free since they were part of a normal dps rotation. 2 out of those 3 skills were actually group heals. For no extra cost and without changing anything in their rotation, magblades were pumping out significant group healing. Refreshing path in particular was a strong AOE DoT and HoT costing 1 cast and occupying 1 bar slot - quite obviously overloaded.
In comparison, twilight Matriarch is a single target DoT taking up 2 bar slots with a burst heal that requires a separate cast. You have to lose dps and resources to cast the heal, it's not just attached for free like with refreshing path. From a high level, it is not obviously overloaded. And unlike magblades, sorcs don't have other abilities with built in heals. Yes, power surge exists, but due to sorcs limited bar space you have to drop other important abilities to slot it. This is a problem that magblades don't have.3 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@WrathOfInnos the pets damage being only 9% is not the most surprising thing on that CMX, it is the fact that someone is using domihaus, what is up with that.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on June 20, 2019 4:53PM1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@WrathOfInnos the pets damage being only 9% is not the most surprising thing on that CMX, it is the fact that someone is using domihaus, what is up with that.
Good eye @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO, apparently it works pretty well in vSS because the ring hits the dragons reliably. I have not tried it myself, but it seems to be performing slightly better than Ilambris or mixed crit.0 -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Good eye @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO, apparently it works pretty well in vSS because the ring hits the dragons reliably. I have not tried it myself, but it seems to be performing slightly better than Ilambris or mixed crit.
Grothdarr hits the reliably as well...assuming the group is stacked properly.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
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curse reach frag and fury... all the essentials of sorc burst (the same if you ran pet less) fit comfortably on the front bar even with double barring the matriach. Pelican one of the strongest mag sorcs on PC NA who was (afaik but i could be wrong) one of the earliest adopters of this build doesn't even bother to slot fury (you can find his build vid on YT).
I am not saying nerf the damage or nerf the heal.. I am saying one morph for each and you PICK.... one or the other... just you don't get to have both. For PvE doesn't matter, overland is a joke and in difficult content you have a healer, your dps will be fine. In PvP you don't need the extra dmg from the pet. The heal alone will make it worth it.
Also most sorcs won't just let you stroll up and kill their pet... usually if you target the pet they'll hit you with the above combination of skills while you are hacking away at the ward protecting the pet.
So it's either "broken and OP" or "nothing", balance not of interest, got it... smh
Are you really saying that mag sorcs can't push out plenty damage without the free damage from the matriach?
They just fixed Incap and Surprise Attack and rightly so, and all the SaltBlades said the class is now dead, guess what still plenty strong Stamblades out there packing people up.
Will point a few things out. Curse, reach, frag, fury by themselves will never kill a good player. Yes it's a potent burst if you get them all to hit, but without pressure from pets, you wont kill a good player with the most telegraphed combo in the game.
But lets say you run those with double pets, you have 2 skills left, one of which almost has to be a shield. Which basically means you have one skill for mobility, some sort of passive heal, your major resistances, perhaps snare removal, major sorcery, etc. In other words, you are going to likely leave a lot on the table. Bars are not only cramped due to pets, they are cramped because the bread and butter burst combo takes 4 skills.
I dont care about overland, which should NEVER even be a factor in a balance equation. But if you did as you suggested (make the morphs one or the other) in PVE true end game, sorcs would vanish from groups.
If the twilight matriarch did no DPS, then templar would be the clear BIS ranged DPS by a freaking mile. Generally speaking, in most trials you stack as many stam DPS as you can and you have ranged magic to handle mechanics. This often requires a self heal, which practically means, most sorcs run matriarch unless they are parsing on a dummy. If that morph did no damage, ALL ranged mag DPS would be templar with higher DPS and BOL.
Templar right now is barely behind a one pet sorc with Tormentor, and almost dead even with one using matriarch. Templar is objectively an easier rotation. They dont have a proc based skill to worry about, more of their rotation is static (3 skills have Identical durations), and the buffs the do juggle are longer duration. They also have an execute rotation that a three year old could do.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
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Grothdarr hits the reliably as well...assuming the group is stacked properly.
That is true, and Grothdarr can potentially do about 35% more fire damage than Domi, and could have added around 340 DPS on top of the 965 shown in that parse. However, Domi also give 200 Spell Damage while active, which works out to nearly 2% damage gain, or in this case about 1.5k DPS. So net gain from Domi is a little over 1k compared to Grothdarr.1 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If I had it my way I would just remove the damn pets altogether and replace with some other skills. Let Warden and Necro be the summoner classes and give Sorc something more unique which also has a damn Stamina morph since Stam Sorcs have hardly any Stam morphs in their kit.0 -
Deloth_Vyrr✭✭✭As a diehard Petsorc in PVE and PVP I agree that the Matriarch currently does a little too much, but we can't look at this without at the same time acknowledging that the Tormentor does too little.
My thoughts are, bring the damage of the base Twilight skill down by about 20%.
Have the Matriarch morph add the heal ability, while keeping the same reduced damage of the base version.
Give the Tormentor morph a passive damage boost (reverting the 20% damage loss) to bring it up to current Twilight damage levels. And then make the Tormentor active ability not trash, there have been dozens of suggestions given over the past years which could all be viable options - but do something because the current ability is garbage.Edited by Deloth_Vyrr on June 20, 2019 6:48PM<Twin-Moons Covenant> PC NA
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
Voice of Reason
Shadow Breaker
Flawless Conqueror1 -
Undefwun✭✭✭✭✭@Emma_Overload @Oreyn_Bearclaw I am talking about guys like this... yes it's a montage but there is also at least 1 or 2 streamers I watch who run this build and they tear it up on the regular..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ipmlSdsUg
Well this weekend I am starting to farm for gear and my ward-less pet-less sorc is getting the inferno/SnB matriarch treatment.with resto ulti getting major protection removed ... it's 'oh crap' turning point mechanic got gutted.
Done with trying to play niche builds and just join in.... of course i will suck much more than that... but should be easier to play than what my sorc was trying to do....Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC
Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP
Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD1 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@WrathOfInnos the pets damage being only 9% is not the most surprising thing on that CMX, it is the fact that someone is using domihaus, what is up with that.
It is my parse, I use domihaus because zaan does not work at at 60-66% uptime the SD buff should outweigh the extra proc damage from ilambris or groth and maw unfortunately has 1pc HP which is unnecessary in this fight. It isn't my highest though, I have 64 single w/o slayer and 66 with but I haven't seen much higher from any mag classes atm (not like people are playing them anyways they are so bad rn XD), while I've seen stamcros reaching 79k single with more group utility and stamblades reaching 80k single (very good players but still). Mag is honestly trash compared to stam rn and the fact that people would want to nerf one of the better performing mag specs is ridiculous. Ask for buffs to magcros/magdens or something smfh.
EDIT: As a side note, I've seen veli do nearly 5k single target on that fight. #balanceEdited by lassitershawn on June 20, 2019 8:31PMWilliam Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x22 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I’m okay with the matriarch doing some damage and being a heal, the damage is a little high though.
Idk how they could do it, but best would be to turn the matriarch doing damage into an ability to cast just like the heal. Two slot, two abilities. Maybe they could change pet abilities depending on what weapon you have equipped.Edited by Iskiab on June 20, 2019 8:43PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
@ecru I still maintain that there is significant opportunity cost in running the pet, 2 bar slots and casting Curse twice as often. There’s a large difference in the complexity of a rotation with Curse every 6s (lining up with nothing else) vs Curse every 12s (lining up with Liquid Lightning).
You’re right about the pet being able to DPS while the Sorc is rezzing, but I don’t think we should be balancing classes around the ability to effectively rez allies. Otherwise Templar and Necro would be considered the best, and everyone would wear Kagrenacs.
Personally I don’t see the Matriarch doing more than 10% in PVE, but I suppose it could happen if events interrupt the rotation and prevent use of other skills. We’re getting to the point of debating within a couple % how much damage it can do, but I’ll post the best example I’ve seen. AFAIK this it the highest Mag Sorc single target on Yolnakriin HM. The Matriarch was 9.0% of his single target at 5740 DPS, and around 8% of overall AoE damage.
And for your final point, I don’t really see any group pressure to force all Magicka DPS onto pet Sorc. In my groups at least, they want everyone to be playing Stamcro. And I’m now the only one playing any form of Mag DPS.
IMO Magplar and Magsorc are actually pretty balanced right now, both in damage and utility. The only reason I don’t bring Magplar to more raids is the lack of Minor Prophecy. I do agree that the other Mag classes need some help though, and I don’t think nerfing Sorc pets would benefit them at all. More likely it would only make the Stam meta more mandatory.
Well I'm definitely not pressured by my group to play anything other than what I want to play, but my guild isn't the type to do that. Others might be though. I still provide decent group utility as mag necro in vSS HM in the form of aoe fracture/a synergy with boneyard and major vuln, but at times I still feel like I'm holding my group back because my dps is low in comparison to that ceiling that I can never hit.
The thing with the matriarch doing things while you're not, I feel like ressing was probably the worst example. Shielding yourself or doing something like kiting the storm in vAS+2 would maybe be a better example of a situation where you can expect outgoing damage while you're not doing anything but playing defensively/making sure you don't die, or shielding/healing yourself (and maybe the other person down there with you) in the portal in vCR+3. Your matriarch is still zapping a crystal even while you're doing that. The ability to continue doing damage while you're doing these things ends up making a really substantial difference at the end of a 10-15 minute fight. I know it can be argued that good players/good raid groups never have to stop and shield or heal themselves because the healers are doing 100% of that, but that accounts for such a small percentage of usually score oriented groups that I don't feel like it matters.
Like I said, I don't want to see sorcs nerfed (in pve, in pvp the pet should clearly be adjusted because the constant outgoing pressure makes a much bigger difference), I'd just like to see other mag dps to be able to reach that high ceiling petsorcs have set for all other mag dps in an actual trial scenario, not a dummy parse. Right now there's just too big of a disparity IMO.Edited by ecru on June 20, 2019 9:58PMGryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer0 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
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Actually non-pet sorcs basically do not exist anymore in endgame PVE because of how strong they made pets. There are exceptions but if they took away the strength of pets without a buff somewhere else they would likely dip below MagDen in terms of damage and have reliability issues in dealing even that much.
Say what? My main Mag Sorc is a Non Pet Sorc. I've run all Vet DLC content with it just fine. I rarely see other Mag Sorcs in my Guilds with Pets.0 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yet another "Nerf Sorc" thread. Say it isn't but the end result is just that. Enough of these nerf threads. Geezus....2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd just like to see other mag dps to be able to reach that high ceiling petsorcs have set for all other mag dps in an actual trial scenario, not a dummy parse. Right now there's just too big of a disparity IMO.
@ecru I could not agree more with your statements here. Seems like too often the only proposed solution is nerfing Sorcs. We should just buff Magdens and such to the current Sorc level.0 -
IonicKai✭✭✭✭Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »
Say what? My main Mag Sorc is a Non Pet Sorc. I've run all Vet DLC content with it just fine. I rarely see other Mag Sorcs in my Guilds with Pets.
To be clear I wasn't saying that it is impossible but why work so much harder when even slotting the Matriarch (either morph) will give you a DPS boost and better consistency.0 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭For the record, I do not play sorc. That said, I do not think that one morph should provide a hot. Perhaps lowering the damage for the halong morph would suffice in making the damage morph more attractive. I do think they should either buff or give a quality of life fix for the damage morph. An active ability on a summon that only works at enemies over 50% hp seems off.0
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It's truly sad to see sorcs defending the current state of the Matriarch Morph. Hardly if anyone, used to have an issue with the Matriarch in the past even when it had it's heal buffed to match and imo outperform Breathe of Life from templars. Sorcs would also heavily rely on Healing Ward for the burst healing they needed without taking up 2 bar slots.
So with that in mind what really has people upset over the Matriarch is it's damage ever since all pets scale with the users stats the Matriarch became a devastating dot and frankly it's overkill. So simply put the main thing that needs to be reduced on Matriarch is the damage and rightfully so it's far to strong on the damage end for what it provides in healing and how it's done.
On the flip side Tormentor needs slight changes to also have players bother picking it as an option. As it stands it really isn't as crucial because for "max" damage tormentor is taken in pve anyway. However it would be nice to have the tormentor function similar to the reworked passive sorcs received with "Amplitude" that scales the damage instead of falling off entirely after a certain % like it currently does for Tormentor.2 -
Transairion✭✭✭✭✭Twilight Tormentor is still terrible no matter how good the scaling simply because it provides zero utility while also having no active ability once the 50% HP threshold is passed.
It absolutely sucks outside extremely organized PvE Trial groups, so until they rework it Matriarch will always be better. Why have better DPS half the time (and the same DPS the rest of the time) when I can have utility all the time?Edited by Transairion on June 21, 2019 7:31AM1 -
Betty_Booms✭✭✭vesselwiththepestle wrote: »I don't agree that the Matriarch is too strong.
It's the Tormentor which is too weak.
This. Balance the matriach by buffing the tormentor...stop calling for nerfs...
Yet another nerf sorc thread...so sick of them...
Oh and stop comparing the skill to other skills that only require 1 slot...
You want to stop the damage on the matriach.. make it a 1 slot heal skill with the heal aspect only. That doesn't require summoning or cant be targetted...cause they are very easy to kill these days. They only have to be in aoe and they die...Edited by Betty_Booms on June 21, 2019 12:57PM1 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Betty_Booms wrote: »
This. Balance the matriach by buffing the tormentor...stop calling for nerfs...
Yet another nerf sorc thread...so sick of them...
Oh and stop comparing the skill to other skills that only require 1 slot...
You want to stop the damage on the matriach.. make it a 1 slot heal skill with the heal aspect only. That doesn't require summoning or cant be targetted...cause they are very easy to kill these days. They only have to be in aoe and they die...
What do you reckon about buffing the Templar's heal Breathe of Life by giving it a damage component, removing the directional based restrictions, increasing the overall heal, adding a LOS component so Templars can free cast from a distance (albeit with a weaker ranged arsenal) and finally reducing the cost to cast it by ~25%?
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yea it would be cool if they changed/buffed the tormentor in a way so it becomes competitive with the matriarch.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Betty_Booms✭✭✭
What do you reckon about buffing the Templar's heal Breathe of Life by giving it a damage component, removing the directional based restrictions, increasing the overall heal, adding a LOS component so Templars can free cast from a distance (albeit with a weaker ranged arsenal) and finally reducing the cost to cast it by ~25%?
Make it tied to a pet that takes 2 slots, is easly killed and has a 1+ second summon time that is detrimental if you need to heal and it dies...it comes with risk..sure.. have at it. Im curious what other skill are you sacrificing for this?1 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Betty_Booms wrote: »
Make it tied to a pet that takes 2 slots, is easly killed and has a 1+ second summon time that is detrimental if you need to heal and it dies...it comes with risk..sure.. have at it. Im curious what other skill are you sacrificing for this?
Not easy to kill a matriarch that can teleport away from you while its stunned back to its master. That and LOS issues are mechanical things that could be fixed or changed before they really need to nerf anything.Fear is the Mindkiller0 -
Konstant_Tel_Necris✭✭✭✭✭So again PvP players calls nerf of already crippled by removal of third bar sorcerer healer, how about no?2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1) The difference in DPS between the Matriarch and Tormentor morphs is marginal (especially considering the Tormentor is only useful for targets above 50% health).
2) The burst heal from the Matriarch is one of the best in the game as it affects 2 targets, with a 360 degree hitbox, and can crit as high as 20k+ on non-healer builds.
This comparison is totally faulty. OP even states they are ignoring a significant part of one skill which in itself discredits the OP.
Take this a step further that OP is compares the skill to another skill that is hardly like it yet tries to claim their are similar.
OP may have a good point but offers nothing of value to support their claims and as such it just seems like a baseless rant.0 -
Daedric_NB_187✭✭✭✭✭So because your NB ability was nerfed, you want to nerf Sorc? And yes. This is a nerf thread.2
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Iron_Blurr✭✭✭✭No it's not overpowered.
It takes up 2 bar slots. If you want to make the pet 1 bar slot fine make it a heal only then. You cant compare it to the dragonknight cauterize skill because that only takes up 1 bar slot.
If you want to take away its damage then you have to give it something in return to justify it needing to be slotted on both bars while things like breath of life do not need to be double barred.1 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭Iron_Blurr wrote: »No it's not overpowered.
It takes up 2 bar slots. If you want to make the pet 1 bar slot fine make it a heal only then. You cant compare it to the dragonknight cauterize skill because that only takes up 1 bar slot.
If you want to take away its damage then you have to give it something in return to justify it needing to be slotted on both bars while things like breath of life do not need to be double barred.
Basically this. Sorc bar space is tight af with double-barred pet and aegis being almost completely necessary. Having the heal lets you get away without running a shield because you still have a good defensive ability, if they took away the heal BUT made it single-barred, I'd be ok with it because then I could slot surge or a shield as a defensive ability without nuking my barspace. Even worse if you play 2x petsorc (I don't, personally I find 1x pet much more versatile and bursty in real content, way easier to swap targets, plus you don't make your tanks want to murder you with that *** delayed stun).William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20