A skill which functioned similarly, but received a rework, is the Path of Darkness skill and its morphs from the Nightblade toolkit. Previously, one of the things that made Magblades outperform was the fact that one of their skills provided both high damage as well as healing (not only for themselves, but for their group). The skill has now been reworked so that Magblades have to choose between a morph that will either 1) Provide damage or 2) Provide healing. Not both.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@WrathOfInnos the pets damage being only 9% is not the most surprising thing on that CMX, it is the fact that someone is using domihaus, what is up with that.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@WrathOfInnos the pets damage being only 9% is not the most surprising thing on that CMX, it is the fact that someone is using domihaus, what is up with that.
Good eye @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO, apparently it works pretty well in vSS because the ring hits the dragons reliably. I have not tried it myself, but it seems to be performing slightly better than Ilambris or mixed crit.
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I am torn on this. It is definitely a very powerful skill, and it arguably overperforms, BUT.... It takes two bar slots, which is not trivial or insignificant. Also, sorc heals outside of this skill are a complete joke and the pet can be killed. Honestly, if this is nerfed more than a hair, it needs reworked from the ground up to be a one bar skill.
curse reach frag and fury... all the essentials of sorc burst (the same if you ran pet less) fit comfortably on the front bar even with double barring the matriach. Pelican one of the strongest mag sorcs on PC NA who was (afaik but i could be wrong) one of the earliest adopters of this build doesn't even bother to slot fury (you can find his build vid on YT).
I am not saying nerf the damage or nerf the heal.. I am saying one morph for each and you PICK.... one or the other... just you don't get to have both. For PvE doesn't matter, overland is a joke and in difficult content you have a healer, your dps will be fine. In PvP you don't need the extra dmg from the pet. The heal alone will make it worth it.
Also most sorcs won't just let you stroll up and kill their pet... usually if you target the pet they'll hit you with the above combination of skills while you are hacking away at the ward protecting the pet.Emma_Overload wrote: »The fact that people are complaining about pets in PvP means that they are finally working correctly after 5 years of mediocrity. If you nerf pets now, I don't even want them at all. Re-work the Daedric Summoning line or give us something else completely different!
So it's either "broken and OP" or "nothing", balance not of interest, got it... smh
Are you really saying that mag sorcs can't push out plenty damage without the free damage from the matriach?
They just fixed Incap and Surprise Attack and rightly so, and all the SaltBlades said the class is now dead, guess what still plenty strong Stamblades out there packing people up.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@WrathOfInnos the pets damage being only 9% is not the most surprising thing on that CMX, it is the fact that someone is using domihaus, what is up with that.
Good eye @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO, apparently it works pretty well in vSS because the ring hits the dragons reliably. I have not tried it myself, but it seems to be performing slightly better than Ilambris or mixed crit.
Grothdarr hits the reliably as well...assuming the group is stacked properly.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@WrathOfInnos the pets damage being only 9% is not the most surprising thing on that CMX, it is the fact that someone is using domihaus, what is up with that.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »KurtAngle2 wrote: »Dalsinthus wrote: »Dalsinthus wrote: »
This was not a call for nerfs, but for a re-balance of an overperforming skill. And if you would read the post you would see that it would in fact be a buff to Sorcerer healers.
I read your post several times before I posted.
I play a pet sorc as one of my most frequently played characters and have for several years, through updates where pets were strong and updates where pets were weak. You say you'd like a "re-balance" but this would be a nerf to my character.
The twilight is a good skill that gives some damage, a nice heal, and draws some enemy fire. It also takes two of my 10 skill slots and costs a lot of magic to cast. It's the only heal I have on my dps - I literally can't afford any other skill slots for healing and the sorc kit doesn't offer much else. I pvp and run dungeons where healers are not always reliable; without twilight (and with my heavily nerfed shields), my character is going to die a lot.
The "re-balance" you are calling for comes on top of a dizzying number of changes that have come to this class in the recent past. I'm tired of the changes and tired of the constant calls for nerfs on these forums.
So I understood your post just fine, but I strongly disagree with your point.
1) Some damage is more like 20/25% of your total damage done for free with no attention whatsoever.
2) Costs a lot of magic to cast: 3510 Magicka, Breath of Life is a much worse skill now and yet costs 4590 Magicka
3) It's the only heal I have on my dps sure (as if Stamina players have many more heals othen than Vigor and Rally for Major Brutality mostly), but you're discounting Streak, Shields AND Targeting issues.
Accept the fact that Matriarch has no reason to have such a huge damage AND huge healing, choose one.
I disagree with point 1. For an end-game Sorc build, the Matriarch does less than 10% of DPS. And this is with the buff from Daedric Prey, with Haunting Curse, the Matriarch is caps out around 7%. If anyone is seeing 20-25% from the pet, then it is likely a problem with the rest of their build, and they should be happy that it is helping to raise the DPS floor.
Now by using Daedric Prey, you are casting Curse every 6s instead of every 12s, so effectively you are adding one additional skill into the rotation every 12s (requiring some attention), as well as taking up two bar slots (call it one for a heal, and one for a DoT). If given the option, I would gladly trade the Matriarch for Vamp Bane and Breath of Life.
It's like ~20% in a lot of pvp situations. 10% in pve is huge too, since the matriarch does it's thing without you doing anything or having to use any abilities. No other class gets that.
When I look at the parses from a petsorc in my guild, who IMO is one of the best if not the best petsorc in the game (in pve), they're like 7-11% from the matriarch. It might be less on a target dummy, but what makes it so good in an actual trial is the fact that the matriarch doesn't ever stop. If for some reason you can't dps (have to res, shield, heal, move, whatever), the pet is still doing it's thing. If you traded the matriarch for either of those, you'd be losing a substantial amount of dps.
I don't really have a solution and don't really want to see anyone nerfed (in pve), but no other magicka class can really compete due to that permanent uptime on the matriarch zap. If petsorc is the intended ceiling for magicka dps, no one else can really get close in an actual trial situation, which really sucks for everyone who isn't a petsorc/wants to play magicka, since it puts them in a tough situation where if they want to be as valuable to their group as possible, they'd be playing a petsorc.
@ecru I still maintain that there is significant opportunity cost in running the pet, 2 bar slots and casting Curse twice as often. There’s a large difference in the complexity of a rotation with Curse every 6s (lining up with nothing else) vs Curse every 12s (lining up with Liquid Lightning).
You’re right about the pet being able to DPS while the Sorc is rezzing, but I don’t think we should be balancing classes around the ability to effectively rez allies. Otherwise Templar and Necro would be considered the best, and everyone would wear Kagrenacs.
Personally I don’t see the Matriarch doing more than 10% in PVE, but I suppose it could happen if events interrupt the rotation and prevent use of other skills. We’re getting to the point of debating within a couple % how much damage it can do, but I’ll post the best example I’ve seen. AFAIK this it the highest Mag Sorc single target on Yolnakriin HM. The Matriarch was 9.0% of his single target at 5740 DPS, and around 8% of overall AoE damage.
And for your final point, I don’t really see any group pressure to force all Magicka DPS onto pet Sorc. In my groups at least, they want everyone to be playing Stamcro. And I’m now the only one playing any form of Mag DPS.
IMO Magplar and Magsorc are actually pretty balanced right now, both in damage and utility. The only reason I don’t bring Magplar to more raids is the lack of Minor Prophecy. I do agree that the other Mag classes need some help though, and I don’t think nerfing Sorc pets would benefit them at all. More likely it would only make the Stam meta more mandatory.
Dalsinthus wrote: »It's the only heal I have on my dps - I literally can't afford any other skill slots for healing and the sorc kit doesn't offer much else. I pvp and run dungeons where healers are not always reliable; without twilight (and with my heavily nerfed shields), my character is going to die a lot.
But that isn't true, the Sorcerer toolkit does offer two class heals: Power Surge and Dark Conversion. Power Surge + Ward/Absorb Magicka provides enough healing to get you through any content in the game.
Non-pet sorcs do just fine endgame without the Matriarch. If you're worried about survivability in dungeons/trials that is a healer problem, not a self-healing problem.
Sorcerers can handle themselves just fine in both PvE and PvP without the Matriarch, so re-balancing the Matriarch would not be a nerf to the class.
Actually non-pet sorcs basically do not exist anymore in endgame PVE because of how strong they made pets. There are exceptions but if they took away the strength of pets without a buff somewhere else they would likely dip below MagDen in terms of damage and have reliability issues in dealing even that much.
I'd just like to see other mag dps to be able to reach that high ceiling petsorcs have set for all other mag dps in an actual trial scenario, not a dummy parse. Right now there's just too big of a disparity IMO.
Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »Dalsinthus wrote: »It's the only heal I have on my dps - I literally can't afford any other skill slots for healing and the sorc kit doesn't offer much else. I pvp and run dungeons where healers are not always reliable; without twilight (and with my heavily nerfed shields), my character is going to die a lot.
But that isn't true, the Sorcerer toolkit does offer two class heals: Power Surge and Dark Conversion. Power Surge + Ward/Absorb Magicka provides enough healing to get you through any content in the game.
Non-pet sorcs do just fine endgame without the Matriarch. If you're worried about survivability in dungeons/trials that is a healer problem, not a self-healing problem.
Sorcerers can handle themselves just fine in both PvE and PvP without the Matriarch, so re-balancing the Matriarch would not be a nerf to the class.
Actually non-pet sorcs basically do not exist anymore in endgame PVE because of how strong they made pets. There are exceptions but if they took away the strength of pets without a buff somewhere else they would likely dip below MagDen in terms of damage and have reliability issues in dealing even that much.
Say what? My main Mag Sorc is a Non Pet Sorc. I've run all Vet DLC content with it just fine. I rarely see other Mag Sorcs in my Guilds with Pets.
vesselwiththepestle wrote: »I don't agree that the Matriarch is too strong.
It's the Tormentor which is too weak.
Betty_Booms wrote: »vesselwiththepestle wrote: »I don't agree that the Matriarch is too strong.
It's the Tormentor which is too weak.
This. Balance the matriach by buffing the tormentor...stop calling for nerfs...
Yet another nerf sorc thread...so sick of them...
Oh and stop comparing the skill to other skills that only require 1 slot...
You want to stop the damage on the matriach.. make it a 1 slot heal skill with the heal aspect only. That doesn't require summoning or cant be targetted...cause they are very easy to kill these days. They only have to be in aoe and they die...
Betty_Booms wrote: »vesselwiththepestle wrote: »I don't agree that the Matriarch is too strong.
It's the Tormentor which is too weak.
This. Balance the matriach by buffing the tormentor...stop calling for nerfs...
Yet another nerf sorc thread...so sick of them...
Oh and stop comparing the skill to other skills that only require 1 slot...
You want to stop the damage on the matriach.. make it a 1 slot heal skill with the heal aspect only. That doesn't require summoning or cant be targetted...cause they are very easy to kill these days. They only have to be in aoe and they die...
What do you reckon about buffing the Templar's heal Breathe of Life by giving it a damage component, removing the directional based restrictions, increasing the overall heal, adding a LOS component so Templars can free cast from a distance (albeit with a weaker ranged arsenal) and finally reducing the cost to cast it by ~25%?
Betty_Booms wrote: »Betty_Booms wrote: »vesselwiththepestle wrote: »I don't agree that the Matriarch is too strong.
It's the Tormentor which is too weak.
This. Balance the matriach by buffing the tormentor...stop calling for nerfs...
Yet another nerf sorc thread...so sick of them...
Oh and stop comparing the skill to other skills that only require 1 slot...
You want to stop the damage on the matriach.. make it a 1 slot heal skill with the heal aspect only. That doesn't require summoning or cant be targetted...cause they are very easy to kill these days. They only have to be in aoe and they die...
What do you reckon about buffing the Templar's heal Breathe of Life by giving it a damage component, removing the directional based restrictions, increasing the overall heal, adding a LOS component so Templars can free cast from a distance (albeit with a weaker ranged arsenal) and finally reducing the cost to cast it by ~25%?
Make it tied to a pet that takes 2 slots, is easly killed and has a 1+ second summon time that is detrimental if you need to heal and it dies...it comes with risk..sure.. have at it. Im curious what other skill are you sacrificing for this?
1) The difference in DPS between the Matriarch and Tormentor morphs is marginal (especially considering the Tormentor is only useful for targets above 50% health).
2) The burst heal from the Matriarch is one of the best in the game as it affects 2 targets, with a 360 degree hitbox, and can crit as high as 20k+ on non-healer builds.
Iron_Blurr wrote: »No it's not overpowered.
It takes up 2 bar slots. If you want to make the pet 1 bar slot fine make it a heal only then. You cant compare it to the dragonknight cauterize skill because that only takes up 1 bar slot.
If you want to take away its damage then you have to give it something in return to justify it needing to be slotted on both bars while things like breath of life do not need to be double barred.