Faction lock is not fair
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
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Great so you know what our Guild and a number of other would do. Stop complaining and go with your buddies to the 7 day campaing and prove your point to ZOS.
Ah but You know what number of other people and guilds think ? Come on You're just subjectivly presenting Your point of view same as everyone here on both sides when saying about majority of people because there is no reliable data to say what majority of people thinks so dont try to make Yourself smarter then others.
Also side question. If ZoS would make 7 days campaign faction locked and leave both 30 days campaign non laction locked or even made 7 days CP and no CP faction locked campaignss and left 30 days campaign non faction locked do You think that 7 days faction locked campaigns would become populated and those 30 day campaigns would start to loose popularity ?Edited by Juhasow on August 29, 2019 2:39AM1 -
LarsS✭✭✭✭✭
Ah but You know what number of other people and guilds think ? Come on You're just subjectivly presenting Your point of view same as everyone here on both sides when saying about majority of people because there is no reliable data to say what majority of people thinks so dont try to make Yourself smarter then others.
Also side question. If ZoS would make 7 days campaign faction locked and leave both 30 days campaign non laction locked or even made 7 days CP and no CP faction locked campaignss and left 30 days campaign non faction locked do You think that 7 days faction locked campaigns would become populated and those 30 day campaigns would start to loose popularity ?
I know people in Guilds who are one faction only on all Alliances, so I know what I am speaking about.
May main point though is that zos looks at hard facts, for a long time there was no choises, now people can chose, locked or unlocked and the result is obvious. If you want to prove otherwise go populate the unlocked Campaign.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭The lady mundus stone is the most popular one, so clearly it must be the strongest one. "Hard facts".
Statistics can only tell you about the state of something, but nothing about the "why".Edited by Rianai on August 29, 2019 9:27AM5 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
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There is a number of guilds incuding ours who are one faction only, those would go to the locked campaigns, so your argument is incorrect.
Agreed, I will play where the game type that suits me is.
I'm done with Faction hopping cheats so will follow the lock, but for CP 7 day would be my preference if I had a choice.
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
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I know people in Guilds who are one faction only on all Alliances, so I know what I am speaking about.
May main point though is that zos looks at hard facts, for a long time there was no choises, now people can chose, locked or unlocked and the result is obvious. If you want to prove otherwise go populate the unlocked Campaign.
Sorry but You admitted Yourself You dont know what You're speaking about and what majority of people thinks. You just know what some people in some guilds thinks and that is not the same. You just suspect what majority of people may think but that is pure guessing on Your side based on Your point of view which is obviously biased towards certain playstyle and since You get to talk with people preffering that playstyle more often You'll get more often answers that match Your point of view but that doesnt mean those answers represent vast majority of playerbase.
Your point is very flawed then. We cannot speak about "hard facts" If there was no real comparision of certain solutions. Yes we have a choice but it is still limited because we dont know how opposite solution would work since there was never similar choice for both solutions but instead 1 solution was pushed on everyone. Result is not obvious and if You think it is that is delusion on Your side. Fact that currently 30 days campaigns are more populated then 7 days one does not instantly mean people preffer faction locks more because even before faction locks were implemented populations were excatly the same. That strongly suggest faction locks may not be main factor keeping people in 30 days campaigns but something else is.
That brings us back to my question which You havn't answered. If ZoS would make 7 days campaign faction locked do You think there would be massive shift of people from 30 days non faction locked campaigns to 7 days faction locked ones to the point 30 days campaigns would become underpopulated ?Edited by Juhasow on August 29, 2019 4:28PM1 -
dtsharples✭✭✭✭✭You have been given a campaign purely to cater to how you want to play, and yet you don't take it - what gives?
I used to play all different campaigns depending how I wanted to play that evening, and what our group was doing.
Now I play solely Kaal, as I prefer CP and I prefer faction lock.
The only issue here is that people won't break from the norm to go and fill up the unlocked campaign. And I presume a lot of that has to do with many people who want to play unlocked aren't actually all that social - i.e. don't have a large friend / acquaintance group in game who they can sway to follow them to unlocked.
If they did it would be flooded with like minded people by now, happily enjoying swapping to their hearts content - But that clearly is not the case, and you need to ask yourself why.
Maybe we can make some sort of poll where you can ask who would come to 7 day unlocked and you can invite the people who vote yes?
Theres a tonne of polls and posts about reversing lock, yet none about trying to get groups together for the unlocked campaign.
It seems there is a fundamental issue that people who want to play unlocked are not admitting to. So I'll ask again, what Gives?
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Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are not enough players to fill more than 2 campaigns at primetime and not enough to fill even one outside of those few hours. And even if there were, the amount of organisation that would be needed to get everyone to swap at the same time - across all alliances and playtimes! - is not realistic.
Also there is no unlocked noCP campaign (and no, adding one isn't going to solve anything).
Nobody, who is against the locks wants to play on an unlocked campaign just for the sake of having no locks (unlike pro faction lock people it seems). No matter how you look at it, the 7-day campaign is not an alternative for players who want actual PvP and not just PvDoor, so please stop bringing it up as an argument.4 -
Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
✭dtsharples wrote: »You have been given a campaign purely to cater to how you want to play, and yet you don't take it - what gives?
I used to play all different campaigns depending how I wanted to play that evening, and what our group was doing.
Now I play solely Kaal, as I prefer CP and I prefer faction lock.
The only issue here is that people won't break from the norm to go and fill up the unlocked campaign. And I presume a lot of that has to do with many people who want to play unlocked aren't actually all that social - i.e. don't have a large friend / acquaintance group in game who they can sway to follow them to unlocked.
If they did it would be flooded with like minded people by now, happily enjoying swapping to their hearts content - But that clearly is not the case, and you need to ask yourself why.
Maybe we can make some sort of poll where you can ask who would come to 7 day unlocked and you can invite the people who vote yes?
Theres a tonne of polls and posts about reversing lock, yet none about trying to get groups together for the unlocked campaign.
It seems there is a fundamental issue that people who want to play unlocked are not admitting to. So I'll ask again, what Gives?
The more I see the endless back and forth about faction locks the more it reinforces my opinion about those that don't like them. It's not really about "playing with friends" or "playing all of their characters". It's really about being able to farm the noobs with their friends on all of their characters. They don't want to go to the 7 day unlocked campaign and fight each other, because that's not what excites them. Running 5vX around a resource tower against hordes of bad players does, and these bad players are by far more numerous on the 30-day campaign. And when the tide of noobs flowed from one alliance to another, because the casual players tended to jump to the dominant alliance for easier AP, the l33t players could flip to an opposing alliance and continue to farm them on a different toon.
I think ZOS locked the 30-day to protect these noob players from getting mercilessly farmed, tbagged and griefed, which was giving their game bad publicity. New players don't want to step into Cyrodiil when they hear from others how frustrating it can be against the highly-skilled small man groups.
I don't fault these players for hating faction locks. It took away a form of gameplay that used to be allowed and that they enjoyed, but everyone should be honest about why they like or hate faction locks, if only to themselves. I like them because I hated the scroll stealing, emp trading, zone griefing shenanigans, and I hated seeing pug herders flip the map yellow or red, only to have them miraculously log in to DC as our last scroll was being taken to "take the map back".4 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭If faction locks are supposed to allow noobs to PvDoor in peace, why not just lock the 7-day campaign, where most PvDoor (and emp/scroll trading/map flipping) takes part anyway?
And ofc stacking on an overpopulated faction isn't going to provide good fights, so turning against those pvdooring "noobs" - your words - is part of the fun, and helps balancing out the population, which is usually something beneficial for anyone but those who only want to pvdoor. And those can just go to the dead campaign, no matter whether it would be locked or not.3 -
LarsS✭✭✭✭✭It seems that some dont know the history of the game, some 3 years ago there was only cp campaigns, people asked for non-cp campaigns and got it. Our old campaign became non-cp so we move to the cp campaign one, together with other guilds after having discussed with them. I the end slighly more selected cp over non cp, but both playing styles were popular and still is. My point is, if the same were true for non-faction locked pvp there would be a decent population on the 7 days campagin.
So zos will never belive those of you who dont want the faction lock, since you complain but dont play on the campaign which is unlocked, or possibly there is only a small minority who want to play that way. Numbers are hard to argue against.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭I indeed don't play the game for that long but still, you really want to tell me you filled a whole campaign solely via organisation? No random players going there? And with the population of 1 active campaign you were suddenly able to fill 2? Yea no, that's not what happened right?
My guess is you swapped from azura to trueflame and the latter had always been the more populated one as far my knowledge goes, so you didn't actually had to organize players to revive a completely dead campaign. And you didn't swapped to a campaign with a different rule-set. The only thing that changed was the name of the campaign. There were also more players overall, so filling multiple campaigns was easier.
How does this compare to filling a completely dead campaign, that has been dead since way before the locks, most likely because of it's less popular 7-day format?
Fact is, i play on a locked campaign, but not because of the lock. Fact is, i don't play on the unlocked campaign for many reasons that have nothing to do with locks. Fact is, i'm not the only one. And fact is, the locks are the reason i'm not playing the game right now and instead typing those pointless words.
But yea, you seem to be that kind of player who would belive the lady mundus is op, because "numbers are hard to argue against". I hope ZOS has a bit more brain, tho i don't have much faith.
Edited by Rianai on August 29, 2019 11:42PM4 -
Elara_Northwind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So ZOS will allow us to purchase skill lines now, and skyshards, change race, but not alliance? It makes zero sense. Even if it were a one time thing, like, each character is only allowed to change alliance once in order to stop any foul play, that would be great! I only ever play AD myself, that is all I have played for as long as this game has been alive, but I recently made a DC and will be making an EP too afterwards, to get the pvp achievements to place in our multi-alliance guild hall. I have fallen in love with my little DC, I don't want to delete her, I would love to change her to AD once this is over....
Edited by Elara_Northwind on August 29, 2019 11:49PMSorcerer, Templar, Wolf Collector, Housing Addict!
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Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
✭If faction locks are supposed to allow noobs to PvDoor in peace, why not just lock the 7-day campaign, where most PvDoor (and emp/scroll trading/map flipping) takes part anyway?
And ofc stacking on an overpopulated faction isn't going to provide good fights, so turning against those pvdooring "noobs" - your words - is part of the fun, and helps balancing out the population, which is usually something beneficial for anyone but those who only want to pvdoor. And those can just go to the dead campaign, no matter whether it would be locked or not.
Faction locks also prevent the casuals from flipping to the dominant campaign easily. Each individual player now has to make a decision at the start of campaign which alliance they’ll play, which makes it basically impossible to follow the herd.
As for balancing out populations, flipping to the underdog to farm noobs at a resource may have drawn part of the zerg away for awhile, but most noobs eventually got tired of being farmed and would would end up idling at a front line keep waiting for the next pug zerg to potato to a keep. That part hasn’t changed.
As for locking only a 7 day campaign, it really wouldn’t make a difference to me. I’ll go wherever the lock is as long as there’s consistent action. I tend to bounce between the 30 and 7 day camps, depending on how active they are and how bad the lag is. Since the player pool is so small now, ZOS should prob drop it down to 2 campaigns, one locked and one open. As for CPs, they should probably decide whether or not CPs are going to stay or not and make both camps either CP or no CP. we just don’t have the numbers to make 3 camps active except during weekend prime time anymore.1 -
dtsharples✭✭✭✭✭There are not enough players to fill more than 2 campaigns at primetime and not enough to fill even one outside of those few hours. And even if there were, the amount of organisation that would be needed to get everyone to swap at the same time - across all alliances and playtimes! - is not realistic.
Also there is no unlocked noCP campaign (and no, adding one isn't going to solve anything).
Nobody, who is against the locks wants to play on an unlocked campaign just for the sake of having no locks (unlike pro faction lock people it seems). No matter how you look at it, the 7-day campaign is not an alternative for players who want actual PvP and not just PvDoor, so please stop bringing it up as an argument.
If all you want to do is to be able to swap whenever you like, you don't need a pop-locked campaign.
Hell, please take a bar of the Kaal population to 7 day so maybe Kaal actually plays reasonably well without a tonne of lag.
Personally I'd be much, much happier with a map where all 3 factions had just 3 bars and not pop-locked.
Imagine if ZOS decided to delete that campaign entirely, there would be uproar about people not having a choice.
Well, at this current time they do have a choice, but people are just refusing to take it.
If that campaign remains empty for much longer, don't be surprised if it gets deleted.
Someone needs to give a good, valid reason as to why people who want to play unlocked, are not playing in the unlocked campaign - made specifically for them. Not once have I seen or heard a reasonable explanation.
It's like being given an option of football or swimming.
You hate swimming but the pool is full of people and it looks like fun, so you go there.
In comparison there are only 9 people on the football pitch and they're kinda listless and not doing very much.
So you sit in the pool and sulk, and complain that you don't like swimming - splashing water in the faces of the people who do enjoy swimming and trying to ruin their enjoyment.
Meanwhile, if you had gone to the football pitch you could have made 2 5-A-Side teams and be enjoying yourself doing what you actually love.
Edited by dtsharples on August 30, 2019 9:42AM3 -
Cerotonin✭✭✭I try to divide my toon’s among all three factions and I’m picky about what i want to play. I currently have 7 AD, 2 EP, and 2 DC. I only really play 1 AD toon actively for PvP LOL. I play a healer too, but I get so bored. I do need more slots though.0 -
josh.lackey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭dtsharples wrote: »Someone needs to give a good, valid reason as to why people who want to play unlocked, are not playing in the unlocked campaign - made specifically for them. Not once have I seen or heard a reasonable explanation.
Because it's EMPTY. There is nothing to do there. That explanation is given multiple times in every thread.5 -
Tsuriel✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Because it's EMPTY. There is nothing to do there. That explanation is given multiple times in every thread.
Trust me, they won't get it no matter how many times you repeat it. Their whole purpose at this point is to drag out the debate as much as possible. Cyrodiil is done anyway.5 -
dtsharples✭✭✭✭✭"It's empty" is not a valid argument!!! It's just the main one that losers have been using to avoid giving a real answer.
That is easily fixed if you just stop filling up Kaal - where apparently you are miserable - get off your lazy asses and go to the unlocked campaign.
WHY ARE YOU NOT GOING TO THE UNLOCKED CAMPAIGN? Give a real answer. I'll even accept "Because I want to farm potatoes"....but I don't presume that you'll be that honest or forthcoming, even to yourself
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Zevrro✭✭✭✭dtsharples wrote: »"It's empty" is not a valid argument!!! It's just the main one that losers have been using to avoid giving a real answer.
That is easily fixed if you just stop filling up Kaal - where apparently you are miserable - get off your lazy asses and go to the unlocked campaign.
WHY ARE YOU NOT GOING TO THE UNLOCKED CAMPAIGN? Give a real answer. I'll even accept "Because I want to farm potatoes"....but I don't presume that you'll be that honest or forthcoming, even to yourself
I'm not going to spend hours of my life in an empty campaign hoping that other players will do the same long enough for it to become known as a populated campaign. I'm just going to go to the one that is already populated like everyone else. This game doesn't have enough players to fill another campaign. I've actually found a fair amount of pvp on the unlocked campaign but its usually short lived and I end up switching back to the locked campaign because I can't find fights.
Regardless of which campaigns are locked and which aren't locked, the 7 day is probably always going to be the dead campaign.@Zevrro PC-EU
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>156m AP6 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Regardless of which campaigns are locked and which aren't locked, the 7 day is probably always going to be the dead campaign.
It wasn't always that way. 7 day used to be good for running small groups. Then population declined and the abuse of 7 Day to flip emp for gold and other campaign killers got to be too much and it died.
I was one of the last 7 Day evangelists to give up and leave for 30 day. It's just dead now. It's not even a farm campaign now -- even baby Cyro is better for farming emp.2 -
dtsharples✭✭✭✭✭They just don't want to admit that they get their kicks killing newbies to cyro.
No newbies are going to join 7 day, hence they won't move to 7 day.
Once they own up and admit it to themselves everyone will be in a better state.
Until then they will keep filling up the forum with whiny crying because they can't kill people in Kaal3 -
Zevrro✭✭✭✭dtsharples wrote: »They just don't want to admit that they get their kicks killing newbies to cyro.
No newbies are going to join 7 day, hence they won't move to 7 day.
Once they own up and admit it to themselves everyone will be in a better state.
Until then they will keep filling up the forum with whiny crying because they can't kill people in Kaal
Plently of the players in the 7 day campaign are newbies. Mostly because the players who want pvp instead of taking empty keeps will move to the populated campaigns.@Zevrro PC-EU
CP 1200+
Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/Bahlokdaan
Magicka Nightblade
AD | Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR43 |
AD | Zevrro II | Magicka Nightblade | AR50 | 09-02-2019 |
DC | Not Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR33 |
EP | Ževrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR14 |SpoilerOther PvP Characters
AD | Zevrro VII | Stamina Warden | AR33 |
AD | Zevrro XII | Magicka Warden | AR22 |
DC | Not Zevrro II | Magicka Warden | AR14 |
DC | Necrotic Zevrro | Magicka Necromancer | AR17 |
EP | Real-Skyice | Stamina Warden | AR10 |
>156m AP1 -
Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
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Plently of the players in the 7 day campaign are newbies. Mostly because the players who want pvp instead of taking empty keeps will move to the populated campaigns.
Not from my experience. Whenever I’m there there’s always newbies asking how to exit Cyrodiil and switch campaigns. They seem to want the big zergs that allow them to survive long enough to get credit for a few kills, which the 7 day camps rarely have.0 -
josh.lackey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭dtsharples wrote: »"It's empty" is not a valid argument!!! It's just the main one that losers have been using to avoid giving a real answer.
That is easily fixed if you just stop filling up Kaal - where apparently you are miserable - get off your lazy asses and go to the unlocked campaign.
WHY ARE YOU NOT GOING TO THE UNLOCKED CAMPAIGN? Give a real answer. I'll even accept "Because I want to farm potatoes"....but I don't presume that you'll be that honest or forthcoming, even to yourself
It's 100% valid. I don't log into Cyrodiil to fight guards.6 -
josh.lackey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭dtsharples wrote: »They just don't want to admit that they get their kicks killing newbies to cyro.
No newbies are going to join 7 day, hence they won't move to 7 day.
Once they own up and admit it to themselves everyone will be in a better state.
Until then they will keep filling up the forum with whiny crying because they can't kill people in Kaal
What does killing newbies have to do with faction lock? You can do that just as easily with or without it.
But I think this is an important accusation. It gets to the heart of the matter. You see multi-faction as a proxy for the underlying issue, which is players who are better than you that kill you.
You imagine faction lock as a way to "punish" them since you can't compete with them in PvP.5 -
Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
What does killing newbies have to do with faction lock? You can do that just as easily with or without it.
But I think this is an important accusation. It gets to the heart of the matter. You see multi-faction as a proxy for the underlying issue, which is players who are better than you that kill you.
You imagine faction lock as a way to "punish" them since you can't compete with them in PvP.
Killing newbies is related to faction locks because without locks, newbies tend to jump to the alliance that is dominating, where it's much easier for them to get kills with extra buffs and masses of other players that also jump to the dominant faction. The AP farmers know this and then jump to one of the underdog factions to farm said noobs, which is their bread-and-butter. All the 1-5vX pros thrive on the noobs, even if they won't admit it. Everyone says they want "good fights", when most of them really mean "wins", plus it looks really cool in their Twitch streams to win vs. superior numbers, and I'm sure the fawning comments from their fans can be a real ego boost.4 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since when is balancing out the population by swapping to the underdog faction a bad thing? And don't confuse noobs with newbies. The vast majority of those "noobs" is playing since years.
Good players are often fighting those noobs because that's simply what most players in PvP are and if they would only fight each other they would end up fighting the same few players over and over again, which can get boring after a while. Doesn't mean those fights don't happen and aren't welcome. But why would anyone want to avoid an estimated 95% of Cyrodiil's population? It is not like you have to specifically look out for noobs, it is inevitable to run into those. Or get run over by them ...
Just because you are less likely to see the noobs winning on youtube montages doesn't mean, they never do. And considering the enthusiasm and persistence they show when chasing solo/small scale players arround, it has to be fun for them too, no?Edited by Rianai on September 2, 2019 9:32PM2 -
Hashtag_✭✭✭✭✭
Killing newbies is related to faction locks because without locks, newbies tend to jump to the alliance that is dominating, where it's much easier for them to get kills with extra buffs and masses of other players that also jump to the dominant faction. The AP farmers know this and then jump to one of the underdog factions to farm said noobs, which is their bread-and-butter. All the 1-5vX pros thrive on the noobs, even if they won't admit it. Everyone says they want "good fights", when most of them really mean "wins", plus it looks really cool in their Twitch streams to win vs. superior numbers, and I'm sure the fawning comments from their fans can be a real ego boost.
Are you pc NA? I see a DC tabard, want to 4v4 or 5v5 me and all my faction hopping friends? I mean faction loyalist are the best players obvious1
