No history = crippled trade guilds

doomette

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Iarao wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

This is just ridiculous. This is crippling to running guilds, especially trade guilds. Is ZoS truly this hellbent on destroying communities?

I also thought it was VERY INTERESTING that they dropped the world premiere of the trailer at EXACTLY trader flip. Like, to the second.... thanks. So much.

Who knew that'd be the nicest thing they did to trade guilds this week? I sure didn't.

I actually was screaming at my monitor. "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO US?! DO YOU EVEN KNOW WE EXIST?!"

I mayyyy have issues.

hmm doomity, look at ur name. no MAY about it :P

Well, ya know how I roll!

Well I for one think name is excellent, and obviously a sign of greatness

Moloch1514

Jhalin wrote: »

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

We have removed some comments from this thread that were inappropriate. Please keep your posts civil and constructive. I can understand being upset but that does not justify violating the Forum Rules.

This is not helpful in any way nor does it leave a good impression of management when we NEVER get any actual responses to these concerns. ZOS broke a MAJOR part of guilds. They broke, apparently permanently, in-guild sales tracking addons (which should be inbuilts across all platforms anyway). They point the finger at guild history and addons when both are COMPLETELY UNRELATED to chat lag, the alliance war, or friends lists.

Send this feedback to your bosses, this game is getting worse and worse by the day. It doesn't deserve any of the money it gets right now

Amen!

D0PAMINE

This issue is even bigger now that a lot of guilds are filling up quicker with the Guild Finder tool.

StabbityDoom

doomette wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Iarao wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

This is just ridiculous. This is crippling to running guilds, especially trade guilds. Is ZoS truly this hellbent on destroying communities?

I also thought it was VERY INTERESTING that they dropped the world premiere of the trailer at EXACTLY trader flip. Like, to the second.... thanks. So much.

Who knew that'd be the nicest thing they did to trade guilds this week? I sure didn't.

I actually was screaming at my monitor. "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO US?! DO YOU EVEN KNOW WE EXIST?!"

I mayyyy have issues.

hmm doomity, look at ur name. no MAY about it :P

Well, ya know how I roll!

Well I for one think name is excellent, and obviously a sign of greatness

You have great taste

StabbityDoom

D0PAMINE wrote: »

This issue is even bigger now that a lot of guilds are filling up quicker with the Guild Finder tool.

Which is also broken as heck.

Ardan147

StabbityDoom wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

They cannot check donations, raffle purchases, guild dues. They cannot even use master merchant to help with pricing, because no history. Please understand how dire this is. I NEVER complain like this on the forums. But you are killing us.

Do you have Excel on your computer?

What i'm talking about is all of the lost data NOW. Such as taxes from guild sales, or if someone donated and didn't know of this bug.

Let's just hope that this data is still being saved and exists somewhere on the server and that it's just that they've disabled access to it for some reason. As any guild store purchase results in multiple database actions that must be performed in a single transaction - remove the gold from the buyer's inventory, remove the item from the guild store listing, generate mails containing the item to be sent to the buyer and the gold to be sent to the sender - that have to be done in a single transaction, one would think that writing a record of the sale would simply be just one more step. So it would stand to reason that this data should still exist. But then again this is ZOS we're talking about, so knows what they're actually doing.

rsantijw13

I like my traders location I sell enough to pay for it. Cry me a river that this is happening. Maybe it will give us a good guild trader shake up. Would love to see a mad dash for spots. ATT is more lightweight than MM. Try using that.

Pevey

rsantijw13 wrote: »

I like my traders location I sell enough to pay for it. Cry me a river that this is happening. Maybe it will give us a good guild trader shake up. Would love to see a mad dash for spots. ATT is more lightweight than MM. Try using that.

So many misunderstandings evident in this statement.

Hold on, let me get some popcorn...

StabbityDoom

rsantijw13 wrote: »

I like my traders location I sell enough to pay for it. Cry me a river that this is happening. Maybe it will give us a good guild trader shake up. Would love to see a mad dash for spots. ATT is more lightweight than MM. Try using that.

Rsanti - ATT uses the same data MM does. It also won't work.

The rest, whatever.

Treat

Not gonna lie, this feels like a needless punishment. If you really don't think we use this data on a day-to-day and weekly basis, you're absolutely wrong. The further out of date my data becomes the harder it becomes for me to price things for auction and the longer it takes for me the more disgruntled I'm going to be. Many of us spend many HOURS a week doing back end management for these very large guilds. I really don't want to add another hour or two just because I have to chase down pricing for every little thing.

Treat

ZoS made the system, we're just trying to live in it the best we can with whatever tools we can find (which means addon's because ngl, I wouldn't even attempt it consoles.)

Pevey

If you look at the top forum topics from any day for the past several weeks (months?) The most discussed topics are not what you would usually see on a studio’s game forum. Overshadowing all other types of posts are posts about serious performance issues. SERIOUS issues that are really surprising from any game studio, but especially a AAA one.

I know how hard game developers and other studio personnel work. It is brutal. I know they are not twiddling their thumbs. And yet we are where we are. Which tells me that some people high up the chain are cutting costs and are cutting muscle instead of fat. And anything on the roadmap that does not directly generate revenue, immediately, is being cut.

Come on, Bethesda. Don’t be so short-sighted. It’s time to invest some resources in a game that has steadily become a bigger and bigger hit.

Rexlupis

ZOS ZOS'd it up again.

Here's to hoping this is resolved within a couple of days so that it doesn't have a massive effect on this week's guild events.

Of course, if this problem persists until after Sunday, then all the issues brought up in this thread become exacerbated, even more-so the longer the history is unavailable. Much longer than that and it makes their service untenable and running a trade guild in a reasonable manner impossible.

I'm not comfortable assigning a "guild treasurer" to deal with all the guild's finances. The potential for abuse in such a scenario is extreme, let alone the issue of human error.

Maintaining a large trade guild is already an overwhelming task. Making it even more-so is not an acceptable alternative. I've endured the role for years; I dealt with the conflict of trader flip during maintenance hours, the increasing inflated economy, the lack of support for GMs, then finally "supporting" GMs with the release of the guild finder tool being botched beyond belief... But this might be the straw that broke the camel's back, for me. If this isn't resolved shortly, I can't say I'd have any desire to continue to retain this responsibility.

Just please resolve this quickly (IE: within a few days)... Take down the servers for a short time for emergency maintenance if you have to... But, to me, this state of affairs aggravates what already feels like an abusive relationship with ZOS as a trade guild GM.

IzzyStardust

redspecter23 wrote: »

A much bigger immediate issue needs to be addressed that is connected directly to the lack of history and this has been long standing. There is no way to turn off the ability to deposit gold into guild banks. Let that sink in for a moment. People are still depositing gold into the banks, possibly for legit raffles. There is zero record of this transaction. Even if the tracking is turned back on, will be be able to see these older deposits? 5 days? Once turned back on, if the history will only go back 5 days, you can't do a weekly raffle. The first two days will be cut off.

Please ZOS, enable the ability to turn off guild gold deposits while this stopgap is in place. Players are throwing gold into a void with no record. That's unacceptable.

Yes thankfully LEGIT DECENT trade guilds are spamming this and MOTDing it.

Eventually some responsibility MUST be on the Guild mate.

Also: it says ADD ONS cannot read history but Guild History should still show in bank or?
Holy ***.

Anslay wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

This is just ridiculous. This is crippling to running guilds, especially trade guilds. Is ZoS truly this hellbent on destroying communities?

I also thought it was VERY INTERESTING that they dropped the world premiere of the trailer at EXACTLY trader flip. Like, to the second.... thanks. So much.

Who knew that'd be the nicest thing they did to trade guilds this week? I sure didn't.

Rright? Trying to find a way to manage through this fresh hell is a challenge that I never wanted to add to my life. Please remedy this at high priority; it's a nightmare.

I reckon many smaller trade guilds will pack up.

IzzyStardust

rsantijw13 wrote: »

I like my traders location I sell enough to pay for it. Cry me a river that this is happening. Maybe it will give us a good guild trader shake up. Would love to see a mad dash for spots. ATT is more lightweight than MM. Try using that.

lol. Small guilds who do not have this kind of time to manage them will fold; large guilds will remain.

rsantijw13

I was saying that if MM is causing such huge issues with the servers a lighter weight addon might be better. I know its not useful now I am talking about the future, and I have seen plenty of big guilds fold. Smaller guilds medium guilds large guilds they all have the same chances to last as long. I enjoy the chaos this is causing to the larger guilds. So glad that my guild diversified on how we generate positive cash flow. So my medium sized guild will move onward with or without history or data and heck even raffles and auction to pull in more gold. To each their own but I still must say this is hilarious to watch.

KMarble

You have a weird sense of humor. You're also forgetting that guild officers are still guild members who, like very single person inside the servers should be able to play and enjoy the game.

Right now the guild officers of the trading guilds I'm a part of are spending their time trying to keep members up to date, sending mail and saving info any way they can. As long as this situation continues, this is pretty much all they'll be able to do when they log in.

it disrupt more than selling. Many of the group activities we enjoyed will have to be postponed because the officers will be too busy monitoring the situation - pledges, WBs, dungeons, group PVP, killing dragons...

Jeremy

Maxx7410 wrote: »

But now the game runs much better!!! maybe the functions from MM should be provided by ZOS?

They should.

That's one of the reasons I don't care for addons. Developers tend to rely on them for important features instead of implementing themselves.

The Guild Store fiasco has come a long way since it's initial disaster. Slowly but surely it's turning into a tried and true MMO auction house. But it still has a few steps to go. One of those is an in-game price history.

VaranisArano

rsantijw13 wrote: »

I was saying that if MM is causing such huge issues with the servers a lighter weight addon might be better. I know its not useful now I am talking about the future, and I have seen plenty of big guilds fold. Smaller guilds medium guilds large guilds they all have the same chances to last as long. I enjoy the chaos this is causing to the larger guilds. So glad that my guild diversified on how we generate positive cash flow. So my medium sized guild will move onward with or without history or data and heck even raffles and auction to pull in more gold. To each their own but I still must say this is hilarious to watch.

As I understood it, MM isn't causing the problem.

Rather, the Guild History that MM and other addons rely on had to be reduced and then turned off entirely in order to stop-gap address the actual problem.

Any guild that used Guild History to track donations, raffles, or sales is struggling to handle the backend paperwork that Guild History did automatically right now, and honestly that's been every trading guild I've been in.

Certainly reducing the guild history to 5 days is better than none, but that's still a lot of extra work for Guild officers to manually track the extra several days.

StabbityDoom

rsantijw13 wrote: »

I was saying that if MM is causing such huge issues with the servers a lighter weight addon might be better. I know its not useful now I am talking about the future, and I have seen plenty of big guilds fold. Smaller guilds medium guilds large guilds they all have the same chances to last as long. I enjoy the chaos this is causing to the larger guilds. So glad that my guild diversified on how we generate positive cash flow. So my medium sized guild will move onward with or without history or data and heck even raffles and auction to pull in more gold. To each their own but I still must say this is hilarious to watch.

It isn't MM that's doing it, or any other addon. It's on their end. As for enjoying other people having a hard time, well, that's nice.

rsantijw13

so this issue would have happened if no one had MM at all. Interesting, and as for my sense of humor maybe I am more grounded and realize that in the end its just a game. All the chatter and activity you would think they got hit by an EMP. I also find it funny and hilarious that the act is being defended. Guild events that rake in cash are the only ones effected, you dont need the guild history to run trials, pvp, rp or many other things. I learned early life doesnt give a crap about your feelings you want straight forward with no pillow talk then your looking at it. Life with out the filter is so much easier. You know there was a way we did things back in '14 believe it was called google docs, heck some used pen and paper. imagine that. This isnt crippling guilds its adding to the work load but not crippling.

rsantijw13

IzzyStardust wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

A much bigger immediate issue needs to be addressed that is connected directly to the lack of history and this has been long standing. There is no way to turn off the ability to deposit gold into guild banks. Let that sink in for a moment. People are still depositing gold into the banks, possibly for legit raffles. There is zero record of this transaction. Even if the tracking is turned back on, will be be able to see these older deposits? 5 days? Once turned back on, if the history will only go back 5 days, you can't do a weekly raffle. The first two days will be cut off.

Please ZOS, enable the ability to turn off guild gold deposits while this stopgap is in place. Players are throwing gold into a void with no record. That's unacceptable.

Yes thankfully LEGIT DECENT trade guilds are spamming this and MOTDing it.

Eventually some responsibility MUST be on the Guild mate.

Also: it says ADD ONS cannot read history but Guild History should still show in bank or?
Holy ***.

Anslay wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

This is just ridiculous. This is crippling to running guilds, especially trade guilds. Is ZoS truly this hellbent on destroying communities?

I also thought it was VERY INTERESTING that they dropped the world premiere of the trailer at EXACTLY trader flip. Like, to the second.... thanks. So much.

Who knew that'd be the nicest thing they did to trade guilds this week? I sure didn't.

Rright? Trying to find a way to manage through this fresh hell is a challenge that I never wanted to add to my life. Please remedy this at high priority; it's a nightmare.

I reckon many smaller trade guilds will pack up.

Does me not spamming this and putting it in my MoTD make my guild and I not legit or decent? [snip]

[edited for baiting comment]

yodased

Lol i can't believe I am actually going to so this, but....

a global auction house would alleviate all these concerns while making being in let alone being GM of a trading guild worthless.

Jaraal

StabbityDoom wrote: »

rsantijw13 wrote: »

I was saying that if MM is causing such huge issues with the servers a lighter weight addon might be better. I know its not useful now I am talking about the future, and I have seen plenty of big guilds fold. Smaller guilds medium guilds large guilds they all have the same chances to last as long. I enjoy the chaos this is causing to the larger guilds. So glad that my guild diversified on how we generate positive cash flow. So my medium sized guild will move onward with or without history or data and heck even raffles and auction to pull in more gold. To each their own but I still must say this is hilarious to watch.

It isn't MM that's doing it, or any other addon. It's on their end. As for enjoying other people having a hard time, well, that's nice.

What I don't understand is, instead of them saying, "Wait, our new code is not working, let's revert back to what we had that previously (kinda) worked, until we can figure out what's wrong and fix it before releasing it to live we send it to the test server for actual testing", rather than just dumping untested code onto live and then disabling user functionality and telling people to 'get used to it' until they get around to fixing it.

Why even have a test server, if you're just going to bypass it and use the paying customers as guinea pigs?

hope0burns

Hopefully this is one of the first steps in killing trade guilds and the trade system as it is and replacing it with a mega-server wide global trade system. No more ridiculous "raffles," no more "dues," no more need for addons to try to figure out where you can find something you're looking for.

Though, I'll be the first to admit that is super unlikely. This seems like something that wasn't intentional and will eventually get fixed so things can go back to normal for everyone. That's generally ok, though. I've had excellent luck selling and buying via Nirn Auction House without dues, raffles, or any other silliness like that so even if that doesn't change I'll be able to continue being an independant dealer. It's nice to be beholden only to myself without the worries of essentially having yet another job, but this one in a game world. Worries like having to meet quotas or getting kicked from an organization I contributed to due to inactivity caused by my interests temporarily shifting and I started playing a new release or some other game for while or something similar.

Ryath_Waylander

I see some smugness from people that think this Zos induced chaos is amusing. This doesn't just hurt big trading guilds and power traders. It hurts casual traders too. I am a casual trader, I got into trading because I needed to save millions of gold to buy an in game house. I'm not some rich kid that can just swipe a credit card to pay more RL money for an imaginary house than I paid for the base game. Addons made this process user friendly and I bought my house after 2 months. The trading habits and farming that I learnt in that time stuck and I continued to trade and farm. Now I'm just not a hardcore trader that will stick with trading as it has immediately become work and not play. I will leave my trading guild and change focus to activites that don't include farming (motifs/patterns/mats etc) I feel sorry for my trade guild as, even though they are a big guild, they were fair and their requirements were reasonable. I hope they don't lose too much income from "subsistance" traders like me.

Acrolas

Jaraal wrote: »

Why even have a test server, if you're just going to bypass it and use the paying customers as guinea pigs?

Things are tested internally. But test servers aren't the live server. Even on a cloned copy of a live server, test servers lack population. It's the actions of thousands and thousands of users that reveal problems and vulnerabilities.

No use playing the victim. There's always some risk in a frequently-patched product, as anything not on the live server is a best-approximation simulation. Errors are statistically going to happen. They're not intentional; that's why they're errors.

Dont_do_drugs

StabbityDoom wrote: »

rsantijw13 wrote: »

I like my traders location I sell enough to pay for it. Cry me a river that this is happening. Maybe it will give us a good guild trader shake up. Would love to see a mad dash for spots. ATT is more lightweight than MM. Try using that.

Besides, the addon swiped Philgo's code without permission or credit.

Thats a lie. The ATT code is completely handmade, without any use of Philgos Code, especially since ATT is requesting and processing the data else than MM, to secure better performance. Arkadius is no noob, he dooesnt need anyone to provide him code from other addons, especially no broken code.

Rygonix

hope0burns wrote: »

Hopefully this is one of the first steps in killing trade guilds and the trade system as it is and replacing it with a mega-server wide global trade system. No more ridiculous "raffles," no more "dues," no more need for addons to try to figure out where you can find something you're looking for.

This will likely cause irreversible damage that the game will not recover from. Just about every mmo I've played or heard of that decided to up and change something that many people cherish just to appease a minority has ended up with one of two fates -
*Staying alive but realizing just how bad they screwed up and decide to open legacy servers set at a time when they didn't drop the ball so hard and move on from there
*The project being cancelled entirely
You can't stuff a genie back in its bottle, so be weary what you wish for.

Dracheimflug

Rygonix wrote: »

hope0burns wrote: »

Hopefully this is one of the first steps in killing trade guilds and the trade system as it is and replacing it with a mega-server wide global trade system. No more ridiculous "raffles," no more "dues," no more need for addons to try to figure out where you can find something you're looking for.

This will likely cause irreversible damage that the game will not recover from. Just about every mmo I've played or heard of that decided to up and change something that many people cherish just to appease a minority has ended up with one of two fates -
*Staying alive but realizing just how bad they screwed up and decide to open legacy servers set at a time when they didn't drop the ball so hard and move on from there
*The project being cancelled entirely
You can't stuff a genie back in its bottle, so be weary what you wish for.

When there is a global system, new sellers can see what prices are set to by those top sellers and set their own prices accordingly. And if those top sellers buy the goods from the lower priced sellers in an attempt to 'corner the market' those lower priced sellers still get paid what they were asking. And if the market sets the price too high then no one buys. Anyone trying to corner the market still has a demand curve to deal with. Even monopolies have limits on where they can successfully set prices.

Plus are you absolutely certain that it is the minority that have an issue with the current system, rather than you actually being part of a minority benefiting from the current system?