Seriously, this game is too easy and the overworld needs to be buffed heavily.

Browiseth

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Then I would suggest they go play one of the hundreds of games that have you feeling like a "badass" one shotting mobs in previous zones. This is a game designed around horizontal progression where that isn't supposed to happen. Horizontal progression is great because when implemented correctly, all content is viable at end game and it's not just mindless eradication of zones like I'm playing Path of Exile or Dynasty Warriors. Unfortunately this, Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are the only games with this structure and if I were to leave, I'd only have one modern alternative.

This is contradictory game design in action and there's no way in hell this is what the developers intended when they introduced scaling mechanics and a gear cap that never raised beyond 160. The fact that they've stopped raising champion point levels until they've figured out what to do with the system is evidence of this.

@AlexanderDeLarge well i would suggest you go play one of the hundreds of games that have you feeling like a "loser" being one shot by mobs in previous zones.

when will eso players realise that telling someone who disagrees with them to go and play something else doesn't mean anything or contribute to the discussion?

MartiniDaniels

CaptainVenom wrote: »

You should try Vet HM Fang Lair, then...

I suppose Overland content may be easy (most of the time) so casuals can enjoy a light and fun game.

I don't get it how group content (majority of which I completed like 100 times ofc) will help me to explore Tamriel, expand my knowledge and immersion etc in overland?

AlexanderDeLarge

Browiseth wrote: »

@AlexanderDeLarge well i would suggest you go play one of the hundreds of games that have you feeling like a "loser" being one shot by mobs in previous zones.

when will eso players realise that telling someone who disagrees with them to go and play something else doesn't mean anything or contribute to the discussion?

There's a difference between disliking an element of a game and disliking the entire foundation that a game was built upon. This is one of the three MMORPGs with a horizontal progression system in place. It was implemented wrong and clearly the developers agree seeing as they're halting their progression system until they "figure it out".

I think it's extremely reasonable to say that if someone wants to feel like a badass one shotting level 2 enemies that they should go play a leveled game instead of defending a flawed scaling system created by developers that at no point in the last five years since the game launched that they're interested in power creep.

Browiseth

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

@AlexanderDeLarge well i would suggest you go play one of the hundreds of games that have you feeling like a "loser" being one shot by mobs in previous zones.

when will eso players realise that telling someone who disagrees with them to go and play something else doesn't mean anything or contribute to the discussion?

There's a difference between disliking an element of a game and disliking the entire foundation that a game was built upon. This is one of the three MMORPGs with a horizontal progression system in place. It was implemented wrong and clearly the developers agree seeing as they're halting their progression system until they "figure it out".

I think it's extremely reasonable to say that if someone wants to feel like a badass one shotting level 2 enemies that they should go play a leveled game instead of defending a flawed scaling system created by developers that at no point in the last five years since the game launched that they're interested in power creep.

@AlexanderDeLarge well...no.

if i want to feel like a badass one shotting level 2 enemies i can just play this game

Lord-Otto

Play Oblivion on the highest difficulty. You'll learn very fast how tedious it is running into a ten-minute-fight every ten meters. It ruins the flow of exploring the world, doing quests, etc.. There's plenty of challenge in vet dungeons and trials. Or if you desperately want to die to overland mobs, go to Cyrodiil.

AlexanderDeLarge

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Play Oblivion on the highest difficulty. You'll learn very fast how tedious it is running into a ten-minute-fight every ten meters. It ruins the flow of exploring the world, doing quests, etc.. There's plenty of challenge in vet dungeons and trials. Or if you desperately want to die to overland mobs, go to Cyrodiil.

False equivalency. Not an MMO, janky, bad animations, terrible scaling mechanic, had almost no reactive combat scenarios. You realize there's a median between babby's first MMO and Sekiro right? Striking a balance in difficulty is always a good thing. Especially when it's opt-in as most suggestions have proposed.

MikaHR

And you are asking them to waste time on something you can very easily do yourself by not using CPs and adjusting your gear right now.

Hallothiel

Is there any other mmo that has different difficulty levels for players? Just curious as to exactly how this could realistically be implemented. Emphasis on the realistically - so actual workable solutions not wishful thinking from people who don't understand game design.

barney2525

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Nimrhys wrote: »

No, I like it as it is thank you.

Why the hell do you like one shotting mobs of enemies at endgame? I was able to two shot the overwhelming majority of delve bosses at CP300 without BiS gear or optimal build and I think the fact that it's widely recommended to wait until CP500 for vMA because it allows you to trivialize mechanics is evidence that power creep is a problem.

Back when I was leveling my Warden for the first time with my CP enabled I remember not even having time to use my subterranean assault in most encounters because everything was dying so quick.

Because that is Exactly what you are supposed to BE.

You are supposed BE Aragorn, who can push a tower ladder into the center of 1000 orcs and fight his way out of it. You are supposed to BE Legolas who can kill 5 orcs in 5 shot in 5 seconds. You are supposed to BE Gimli who can swing an axe and kill 3 orcs at once.

The focus of the game is NOT overland. Overland is Flavor. Overland is nuissance. The whole point of the game is to become as big and badarse as you can so you can defveat REAL challenges. Well guess what. If you GET big and badarse enough to defeat REAL challenges, then Overland SHOULD be a cakewalk.

Icy_Waffles

Honestly it doesn’t bother me. I play overland for quests etc for when I want story or a break from other group content. I’m okay with the difficulty.

That being said, having difficulty options would be cool too. I’m not sure how it would implement as different people could potentially be in the same place fighting the same thing with different difficulties...

MikaHR

barney2525 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Nimrhys wrote: »

No, I like it as it is thank you.

Why the hell do you like one shotting mobs of enemies at endgame? I was able to two shot the overwhelming majority of delve bosses at CP300 without BiS gear or optimal build and I think the fact that it's widely recommended to wait until CP500 for vMA because it allows you to trivialize mechanics is evidence that power creep is a problem.

Back when I was leveling my Warden for the first time with my CP enabled I remember not even having time to use my subterranean assault in most encounters because everything was dying so quick.

Because that is Exactly what you are supposed to BE.

You are supposed BE Aragorn, who can push a tower ladder into the center of 1000 orcs and fight his way out of it. You are supposed to BE Legolas who can kill 5 orcs in 5 shot in 5 seconds. You are supposed to BE Gimli who can swing an axe and kill 3 orcs at once.

The focus of the game is NOT overland. Overland is Flavor. Overland is nuissance. The whole point of the game is to become as big and badarse as you can so you can defveat REAL challenges. Well guess what. If you GET big and badarse enough to defeat REAL challenges, then Overland SHOULD be a cakewalk.

No no no, you are supposed to be a wimp that gets demolished by ladybug if he steps outside of town without full raid group....you know....old school.

Lord-Otto

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Play Oblivion on the highest difficulty. You'll learn very fast how tedious it is running into a ten-minute-fight every ten meters. It ruins the flow of exploring the world, doing quests, etc.. There's plenty of challenge in vet dungeons and trials. Or if you desperately want to die to overland mobs, go to Cyrodiil.

False equivalency. Not an MMO, janky, bad animations, terrible scaling mechanic, had almost no reactive combat scenarios. You realize there's a median between babby's first MMO and Sekiro right? Striking a balance in difficulty is always a good thing. Especially when it's opt-in as most suggestions have proposed.

Oh, it's a near-perfect comparison. Overland is designed to give you the Elder Scrolls experience. Explore stuff. There is content specifically for challenging gameplay. Normal dungeons for the medium challenge, then veteran ones for more experienced players. Lastly, challenge runs and leaderboards for the veterans. You really can't complain about ESO not having a variety of PvE content.

Combat system is bad in both, Oblivion and ESO. Oblivion might be super dated, but it had spellcrafting, making for interesting effects. ESO handles better due to the engine, but it still has targeting and LoS issues. And the skills you use are quite boring, to be fair.

idk

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

@AlexanderDeLarge well i would suggest you go play one of the hundreds of games that have you feeling like a "loser" being one shot by mobs in previous zones.

when will eso players realise that telling someone who disagrees with them to go and play something else doesn't mean anything or contribute to the discussion?

There's a difference between disliking an element of a game and disliking the entire foundation that a game was built upon. This is one of the three MMORPGs with a horizontal progression system in place. It was implemented wrong and clearly the developers agree seeing as they're halting their progression system until they "figure it out".

I think it's extremely reasonable to say that if someone wants to feel like a badass one shotting level 2 enemies that they should go play a leveled game instead of defending a flawed scaling system created by developers that at no point in the last five years since the game launched that they're interested in power creep.

I think you lack some basic understanding of the foundation in this game.

First of all, the horizontal progression system you refer to , assuming it is PvP, is an extremely small part of power creep in this game and what you are complaining about. That 30 CP increase in the cap we used to get every quarter amounted to not much more than a rounding error in the math of things due to the steep diminishing returns in the CP system. That should be obvious.

Despite the added CP every quarter not providing any significant boost to our dps and resistance we still managed to get stronger every update due to changes Zos made directly to the game. Pretty much every quarter, including the one where Zos nerfed CP heavily, we became stronger due to changes Zos made.

As for the foundation you do not like, tiered difficulty levels going from overland/quest to dungeons to trails, etc, that is pretty common in MMORPGs of today's day and time.

I realize these are inconvenient truths, but it is how it is.

AlexanderDeLarge

MikaHR wrote: »

No no no, you are supposed to be a wimp that gets demolished by ladybug if he steps outside of town without full raid group....you know....old school.

Nice strawman argument you got there.

Chilly-McFreeze

Hallothiel wrote: »

Is there any other mmo that has different difficulty levels for players? Just curious as to exactly how this could realistically be implemented. Emphasis on the realistically - so actual workable solutions not wishful thinking from people who don't understand game design.

SWTOR

MikaHR

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Is there any other mmo that has different difficulty levels for players? Just curious as to exactly how this could realistically be implemented. Emphasis on the realistically - so actual workable solutions not wishful thinking from people who don't understand game design.

SWTOR

No it doesnt.

VaxtinTheWolf

Personally, I would like them to test what the game would be like if players were only scaled to Lv50 stats instead of Lv50(CP160) and see how that goes.

Neoealth

It really is way too easy. The world PVE is pretty much a snore fest in terms of challenge.

MikaHR

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Personally, I would like them to test what the game would be like if players were only scaled to Lv50 stats instead of Lv50(CP160) and see how that goes.

Stats are the same. Sans CP obviously.

First and foremost solution that also deals with power creep that has spiraled out of control is to remove CPs and nerf top end gear heavily (50% reduction on ALL set bonuses) as well as disabling monster sets outside of dungeons/trials.

Smasherx74

SirAndy wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

...

You joined in April of 2014.

Do you remember how easy the game was for you back then?
How you could beat everything blindfolded, naked and with one arm tied to your back?

Right,. You got 5 years on those people who are truly starting fresh, not just a new character for someone who's been up and down this road a thousand times.

Back then everything wasn't scaled. If I was lvl 14 and went to Windhelm or Rifter I'd get my ass kicked, and it actually gave me an incentive to complete all the quests in my zone outside of a completionist thing. ZOS has made this game progressively easier. There was a point where I remember I was attacking some enemy that would just heal it's self and since I was a healer myself we were in a loop, so comprehensive balancing to fix those sorts of issues are just fine. But reducing everythings health, scaling, etc... really made everything too easy. There was a point in time when you would group up with the other players in a delve to kill the final boss instead of speeding past each other to see who can burn everything the fastest.

tinythinker

This link's been getting a heavy workout lately. Lots of ideas have been suggested for this issue, no word from ZOS on it, but they are certainly aware. Time will tell if, like other content/features, the long drumbeat over some type of challenge mode will result in an addition to the game

Rex-Umbra

I wont buy anything else until we get a difficulty slider. Like us scale difficulty/rewards like take 10x dmg and do 1/10th damage for 200% more gold/xp.

Kalgert

Bekkael wrote: »

For the sake of brand new players, I’m glad if overland leans more toward easy than hard.

Funny one would surmise this, thinking that players will stay and keep playing, because the game is easier than girls in... Saucy videos.

While yes, people are likely to finish things without much struggle. That does, however, breed players in to a certain playstyle that, surprisingly enough, doesn't mix well with anything harder than Normal difficulty in dungeons.

Also not to mention that I've played during the period in which WoW was a one-shot fest of mediocrity. Sure it was fast, easy and quick to level up, but... It really did not help matters (On top of the leveling process in that game is absolutely dreadful)

I had to switch to Tank just so I can play Veteran Dungeons without feeling like killing myself, because in the open world I can one-shot things with a well-placed Wrecking Blow. Different story when it comes to beating up the Target Skeleton, or actually doing Veteran Dungeons though...

A copy-past from another thread:
The best solution I can think of, that could make everyone happy, while not separating playerbases or "Taxing the servers" through phasing... Include a buff/debuff called "Undaunted Wanderer" or something fancy like that. Put an NPC in the Undaunted camps that challenges you to take on the world, and then applies a debuff that increases damage taken or damage dealt, or something like that, while also improving the drop and quality of loot.

Can't see anything wrong with that.

I can even think of some dialogue the NPC might have: "Ah, I see you there! *inhales* Aaaah, can you smell that? I can see it in your eyes, you lust for adventure, to see the world and battle monsters of all shapes and sizes? But I see the spark in your eyes that yearns for more. So tell you what, take this scroll and read it out loud, and you will find yourself facing beasts that may very well leave you gasping for air. And if you wish to revert the scroll's magic, come to me and I shall cleanse you of its effect... For a fee. Hahah, just pulling your leg!"

So sayeth Ingrid the Wandered. A Nord Woman Soul Shriven (Let's say that she is Cadwell's cousin that only you can see)

ApostateHobo

I see new players struggling with overland and delve mobs all the time, so I think their difficulty is fine as it is now.

Zardayne

Bekkael wrote: »

By bad, I mean new, naked account, like a first time player to the game would experience. Starting out is tough for a new player, and if things are too hard they will quit. I left the game several times when I was leveling my first character. I died to a gust of wind for quite a while, and that just isn’t fun.

For the sake of brand new players, I’m glad if overland leans more toward easy than hard. Experienced players can get their jollies with harder content in other areas of the game, and leave questing alone. New players need to be enticed to stay, not driven away by a Dark Souls type of gameplay.

Just my opinion.

Just to begin, this is no attack on you I've just heard the same thing before so I wanted to use your post as a starting point.

You say starting out is tough on a new player yet 80-90% of all of the game's content is questing in overland and delves on easy mode. I've heard it thrown around that overland is supposed to be easy, it's for learning. Really? So over 3/4 of the game is for training? This is the only MMO I've played in over 20 years that had this much hand holding for training. Then ZOS keeps pumping out more expansions and expecting myself and other veteran players to keep shelling out $40 on a lot of content that isn't even made for us. I don't think many of the people who have been asking for a difficulty increase for years are wanting Dark souls difficulty. That's too extreme and for a niche crowd. We'd just like to feel like a hero. When you overcome difficulty to emerge victories you have a sense of accomplishment. In overland questing now my main accomplishment is overcoming boredom.

I personally think that mobs need to use more tactics and use more CC. I mean think about some of the harder elements in game where mobs knock you down, stun you, or poison you. (like poison in maelstrom). It throws you off your game. Even if your a bad ass and fighting 4 lesser mobs, when your laying on your back getting beat on, you get a little worried. Another thing that drives me nuts and could make things interesting if it was tweaked is every monster of the same type is the same difficulty. Say you attack a party of 3 mobs. 1 is a mage, 1 a fighter type in heavy armor and shield, and the other is an archer. These mobs all go down at the same time. The mage doesn't shield or teleport away, the fighter never uses his shield to reflect or block and his armor doesn't make him any more durable, and the archer just stands there and takes it without rolling and/or switching to melee. As it is now they all fall over and die at the same time within seconds. This game is also one of the firsts I've ever played that doesnt mix in some stronger captain type mobs among groups of same type mobs or have them roaming about. So maybe I'd like to see it a bit harder and more engaging in combat. I know they can do it because a few mobs in various expansions show signs of using some tactics.

Lastly, as I've mentioned before I think adding difficulty levels to delves and such. We definitely don't want to go back to total vet zones. Even though I enjoyed the difficulty those fractured the community. Part of playing an MMO is seeing other players running all over giving the sense your not alone and the game has a healthy population. With that that said though, as a veteran who loves doing good quests and enjoys exploring crypts and caves, I expect some challenge from the denizens of the deep. A lot more than the insert name here highwaymen outside. I also expect when I get to the end of a quest and Korax the Murderer of Worlds, is standing there waiting for me laughing maniacally , that our fight is going to go a few rounds as he pulls tricks out of his hat and it doesn't end like a Tyson 8 second fight. Unfortunately once you get a few CP, can bar swap, and have 2 or three aoes the latter is how it ends most of the time.

IMO these would help the difficulty quite a bit and most importantly make the game more interesting.

Chilly-McFreeze

MikaHR wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Is there any other mmo that has different difficulty levels for players? Just curious as to exactly how this could realistically be implemented. Emphasis on the realistically - so actual workable solutions not wishful thinking from people who don't understand game design.

SWTOR

No it doesnt.

It's been a while but wasn't there a button that let's you change difficulty (story, veteran etc.)? Or was that just for Flashpoints?

Kiralyn2000

Hallothiel wrote: »

Is there any other mmo that has different difficulty levels for players? Just curious as to exactly how this could realistically be implemented.

City of Heroes & Star Trek Online (both designed by Cryptic) have a settable difficulty level. On the other hand, they both had/have almost entirely instanced content (and I believe the difficulty level only applied to those - so when you go into one of the rare multiplayer 'adventure' zones, it didn't apply)


That said...

Can anyone tell me a (modern) MMO where the Overland/Zone content is at all 'challenging' for top-end players? The type who raid/trial/top leaderboards?

Because WoW certainly wasn't, back when I played it. A new expansion came out with an increased level cap - and the overland content was balanced to be playable by the folks who'd just leveled through the previous zones, with blue/purple gear. Raiders who had 2+ tiers of gold gear, with vastly higher gearscore, cakewalked through it all, frequently not starting to find any gear upgrades until they were at the new level cap & getting new purples.


(And even ignoring well geared players, the difference between "new player" and a vet who knows WTH they're doing with the game systems is huge. Especially in this game, with weaving & similar things. So even when a vet wears white gear & has no CP assigned, they're still much stronger than an actual new player. And let's not forget how the One Tamriel scaling gives new level 1's a massive stat boost, so those 'vets' who are playing no CP/no gear, are still working off inflated stat pools.)

Kalgert

barney2525 wrote: »

Snip for length.

I've been playing the game for a long time. So really, I have a lot of resources at hand.... But I don't use them. So really, outside of using or not using Champion Points, all my new characters function as "Fresh Account" characters with no resources.

AND EVEN THEN... The game's objectively not that challenging. Even playing as a tank character where DPS is very low, it's not challenging. I'd have to be really reckless to even come close to dying (Which happened once, because I didn't have any self-healing abilities slotted).

So begone with this notion that the game is challenging for new players with absolutely no resources, when it obviously ain't the case.

Chilly-McFreeze

Kalgert wrote: »

So begone with this notion that the game is challenging for new players with absolutely no resources, when it obviously ain't the case.

I think most of the "no hardmode for you" sayers really underestimate the ordinary player. Actually, I find it kinda nasty to deny them any skill - bc overland content (except world bosses) is anything but difficult since 1T.

Zardayne

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Is there any other mmo that has different difficulty levels for players? Just curious as to exactly how this could realistically be implemented.

City of Heroes & Star Trek Online (both designed by Cryptic) have a settable difficulty level. On the other hand, they both had/have almost entirely instanced content (and I believe the difficulty level only applied to those - so when you go into one of the rare multiplayer 'adventure' zones, it didn't apply)


That said...

Can anyone tell me a (modern) MMO where the Overland/Zone content is at all 'challenging' for top-end players? The type who raid/trial/top leaderboards?

Because WoW certainly wasn't, back when I played it. A new expansion came out with an increased level cap - and the overland content was balanced to be playable by the folks who'd just leveled through the previous zones, with blue/purple gear. Raiders who had 2+ tiers of gold gear, with vastly higher gearscore, cakewalked through it all, frequently not starting to find any gear upgrades until they were at the new level cap & getting new purples.


(And even ignoring well geared players, the difference between "new player" and a vet who knows WTH they're doing with the game systems is huge. Especially in this game, with weaving & similar things. So even when a vet wears white gear & has no CP assigned, they're still much stronger than an actual new player. And let's not forget how the One Tamriel scaling gives new level 1's a massive stat boost, so those 'vets' who are playing no CP/no gear, are still working off inflated stat pools.)

As an old COH/COV player myself thats why I think overland itself needs to stay as is for the most part but delves in overland need to be instanced so that they scale and get harder depending on how many you are grouped with or better yet allow the choice of difficulty when you you enter. I remember being able to do missions alone but later join a team and enter the same place only to be greeted with tougher and more mobs all over. It became a warzone and it was great! You can see my post above for more ideas on the matter but I enjoyed COH. I also enjoyed the harder zones where I could go in and see just how well I could do. It also let me duo with a friend and have some great times. Unfortunately in ESO, short of doing a dungeon or pvp, my friends and I that are left never group up. There's no need for it at all.

Edit:
I wanted to also add I played WOW upon launch and it had quite a bit of difficulty back then. One thing WoW wasn't afraid to do was mix in elite leveled mobs among other type mobs in the zones and caves. I mean I remember distinctly entering ogre caves in Stranglethorn that were mixed with regular and elite ogres. Of course every zone was for certain levels and if you were within that range you could get in there and get into trouble, especially if they spawned behind you. Wow also wasn't scared to add wandering bad asses like the big earthshaker thing that came with the second expansion (I think). That thing would scare the ll out of you when it snuck up on you and killed me many a time. EQ2 did the same thing.

Also those raid/trial/leaderboard folks are a such a very low portion of the population and they are mainly satisfied with doing the content that is competitive. My guess is the could care a less about regular questing and delves. So no I've never played an MMO that tries to cater to those folks. Of course I'd wager those of us that would like the option of a bit of challenge also are not mainly raiders and such. We're the ones that want the quests to have meaning and a sense of accomplishment for us veteran gamers while still enjoying the vast amount of content that is continuously created in overland. After 20+ years of MMOs maybe it's time to innovate and offer MMO gamers more difficulty options to their general questing and exploring crowd, especially when they keep adding tons of it.