Fixing "too easy" and "no incentive" to replay

tinythinker

{Please don't necro, quote-copy to another thread if you want to share/bring up stuff from this post. Don't want this thread to be locked even if it is current/relevant and technically not "out of date"}

So these two issues -- scaling players with 300+ CP and good to awesome gear/players who've done it all -- regularly appear on the forums. I am going to offer an idea, but if you haven't read my posts before be warned... I try to say a lot in a relatively short space. (That is, compared to how much text it would otherwise take to fully explain.)

ISSUES

1. Many players get bored running the same content over and over with no additional incentive even though they love the game and want to keep playing ("no incentive"). This was true before I wrote this post in the summer of 2017 and people are still positing regularly about this issue in 2019 or whenever you may be reading this from 2020 and beyond after following a link to this thread or finding it through the forum search feature. However you cam here this issue may not be relevant to you, which is fine, but it is to other players.

2. Level-scaling characters as opposed to content upward and tuning the game to brand new no CP players with little no or crafted gear and limited MMO experience makes basic world content "too easy" for more experienced players with high CP.

3. This applies to leveling alts as well as going back to do repeatable quests located in the original base-game zones. So having a *fun option* to up the challenge would extend the interest and playtime for those players who hit the "overland in a faceroll" plateau. Those who don't want extra challenge in overland would not have to use the option, so nothing changes for them.

Craglorn and the unreleased Murkmire were supposed to be harder content meant for groups or bored players but the former was made solo-friendly and the latter never released. At that time, circumstances such as total available content, the mix of new-to-MMO single player TES fans and drifting MMO vets, and the arduous task of leveling up the original version of the Veteran Rank post-50 progression system made Craglorn appealing to too few people, especially when XP grinding spots were nerfed. The game wasn't ready for challenge zones. The emphasis at that time needed to be more on new content explorable by most if not all players, so eventually Craglorn was heavily nerfed. It made good business sense.

They updated many mob abilities and gave them cc immunity but that doesn't do much for experienced players with high CP.


POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS

Solution Type #1: Some players have suggested having an unadorned/lore-free difficulty toggle, maybe turn off or lower CP to a smaller cap, for example. But, only a handful of players would use this, even many who claim to be bored or lack challenge, if that's all that was offered. Solutions like "run stuff naked" misses the point, often intentionally. There have also been suggestions for a difficulty slider, though personally I am concerned that the server load from everyone having a different spot on a slider in the same area could be be bad. I can't say for sure though as I'm not a gaming software engineer or IT person.

Now, if they put something in with a new NPC where you equipped some item or toggled some button to amount to what is a challenge mode for some lore-friendly story reason and allowed players to earn something or some things of value that might work. This option would be available only at something like CP 300 or 400 and over.

For example:

*undaunted (or some other group, some master teacher, etc.) challenge to fight drunk, or while poisoned
*challenge by some daedric prince to get stronger by being afflicted or taking a mark that weakens you
*same as the one right above but you do it to earn favor not to get stronger
*same as above but to help power or charge something, maybe repairing the damage from the soulburst
*same as some of the above but working for a divine or the divines through an intermediary
*similar to others but for some npc group from the Elder Scrolls universe not yet added to the game (Psijic Order for example) or a previously unheard of group

The rewards could be many. Not just more experience points/champ points because no, that is too simple and potentially exacerbates the issue. Points for a different non-combat customization system? Unlocking and leveling up subclasses/subraces? Unlocking and leveling up a skill line that would take tons and tons of investment in this new system (with additional skill lines added every 12-16 months)? Slowly earning gear or other types of tokens? Or, or, or... there are dozens of different possibilities that could be plugged in here. I've recently taken a shine to tokens that can give temporary buffs that have cool-downs to prevent exploiting them by having them up 2/47. But whatever, people can discuss and debate what suitable cool but reasonably limited rewards would be available, whether just RP based or also character ability based.

Solution Type #2: The advantage of a Type #1 solution is that once set in place, you can just let it go. No special phasing. No new zones "just for" those who want harder content. You can group up with anyone for overland with the challenge mode on or fight next to random strangers side by side, get your extra difficulty and some minor RP and/or temporary character buff or whatever as per above, and no one even knows who has challenge mode on and who doesn't. Clean. Simple (well, comparatively so...)

A Type #2 solution is more involved. It asks for more. More coding. More phasing. Or even new zones. I personally am not opposed to this, and one could make a case that the game can now support the old adventure zone concept. Not sure how far that case would get, but having some place (either in a new zone or as part of another zone) where things are harder is definitely a way to add challenge. We know for example in Craglorn you still get warnings flashing that you are entering a harder but of content when you get close to that zone's version of World Bosses. That seems more likely than an entire adventure zone of extra challenge, though having one such zone that can be slowly added to over time could also work. ZOS designers have mentioned that early on in ESO's development, they considered adding some kind of mega-dungeon/mini-zone that would take days to complete. This idea never made it into the original game. Something like that could be added with a great story but also buffed difficulty, similar to how people save their progress in veteran Maelstrom Arena. Or, it could just be a stand-alone mini-zone, potentially with new areas added every so often.

Another suggestion that has made the rounds isn't a new zone, mini-zone, extended instanced content, or a challenge area of a larger, chapter-sized zone. It involves phasing. This would separate players who choose to turn on challenge mode, much like in Battle for Azeroth those who turn on War Mode are sharded only with other people who have also toggled on War Mode. In this version of "added challenge", mobs in such phasing would cast much quicker and hit much harder. However, just like for the Type #1 solutions, this would not apply for private instanced content, battlegrounds, or open world PvP areas like Cyrodiil and Imperial City.


CONCLUSION

Anyway, the idea is to give a lot of players an extra incentive or an additional reason to keep playing and to offer an *option* play with more challenge.

Whether or not ZOS would ever see sufficient reason to invest in any kind of challenge mode or system is for them to decide, just like it was for creating One Tamriel, the Housing System, a Necromancer class, and so on, despite the reasons some players gave why these types of things would not be worth their time. This is about what such a system could look like and whether you would use such a system, not what you or I think ZOS will or won't do.

Would you accept this challenge mode or new zones/zone areas? For what kinds of rewards?

Story/lore fans, what should the plot be for this?

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EDIT: Changes from original June 2017 in blue. Last edited in May 2019.
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Yshaar

I like these ideas. WoW had something when the players were working towards the opening of Anh Quirai gates. All had to gather wood and other stuff to open it up. This wasnt implemented very glorious but I like thinking along these lines in an MMO.

KerinKor

tinythinker wrote: »

This option would be available only at something like CP 300 or 400 and over.

I likely wouldn't use this option but I'm not against it but wonder why you think 300 CP is some sort of achievement that would reward this .. CPs are simply ground out by playing for 'n' hours, they indicate nothing about a player beyond the fact they can spend weeks and weeks in a video game.

Artemiisia

in other mmo, they made so you could enter some of the zones, and get nightmare versions of the places instead

SilverWF

tinythinker wrote: »

Would you accept this challenge mode?

NOT.

Make a poll.

JR_Returns

At the moment ZOS seem to making it possible to get to high CP with less and less effort.

That means new players get to end game quicker and once there with nothing left to do most of them will leave.

There is a desperate need for some form of progression for high level player. Personally I don't think a selectable hard mode is the answer. but something needs to be done otherwise the game will loose lots of high level players.

tinythinker

KerinKor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

This option would be available only at something like CP 300 or 400 and over.

I likely wouldn't use this option but I'm not against it but wonder why you think 300 CP is some sort of achievement that would reward this .. CPs are simply ground out by playing for 'n' hours, they indicate nothing about a player beyond the fact they can spend weeks and weeks in a video game.

All progression can be described that way. Level. Alliance rank. Achievements. CP 300 is a starting point for people who have put a certain amount of time on the game. It could be 330. The exact number isn't the issue. I am specifically addressing an issue for people who start finding content too easy because of their number of CP and those who want to have more replay value. Those at 300+ are more likely to qualify. And even for those who don't find things too easy or redundant there would be a new optional advancement of some kind to give a new challenge and new achievements/sense of accomplishment.

tinythinker

Artemiisia wrote: »

in other mmo, they made so you could enter some of the zones, and get nightmare versions of the places instead

Except ZOS wants all basic zone content available to all players and their friends from install. Hence the Craglorn nerf. More likely that they would add an option for each player to benefit from having their power reduced to some degree than splitting up the player-base.

tinythinker

JR_Returns wrote: »

At the moment ZOS seem to making it possible to get to high CP with less and less effort.

That means new players get to end game quicker and once there with nothing left to do most of them will leave.

There is a desperate need for some form of progression for high level player.

Yup. And something optional to provide new challenge and unique benefits that reuses existing content is a good starting premise. Doesn't have to be a challenge mode but that options hits two birds with one stone. Other ideas providing new challenges and benefits with existing content are very welcome if anyone wants to share.

Garrick

For single player content, like leveling a new toon, I would be all for a difficulty toggle. I already make a point to not assign cp to characters under 50, only use gold the character earns, and only use found equipment: and it's still too easy.

For group content I think you have some good ideas here. I think the rewards could just be achievements, although I realize many people won't do optional things unless there is a character improving reward. Skins or costumes or titles are a nice compromise. I can see people going for those.

Good ideas.

tinythinker

Garrick wrote: »

For single player content, like leveling a new toon, I would be all for a difficulty toggle. I already make a point to not assign cp to characters under 50, only use gold the character earns, and only use found equipment: and it's still too easy.

For group content I think you have some good ideas here. I think the rewards could just be achievements, although I realize many people won't do optional things unless there is a character improving reward. Skins or costumes or titles are a nice compromise. I can see people going for those.

Good ideas.

Achievements should definitely be part of the deal, and collectibles are good for instanced content, but something you can build up over time would be good for overland content in both PvE and PvP zones.

MLGProPlayer

JR_Returns wrote: »

At the moment ZOS seem to making it possible to get to high CP with less and less effort.

That means new players get to end game quicker and once there with nothing left to do most of them will leave.

There is a desperate need for some form of progression for high level player. Personally I don't think a selectable hard mode is the answer. but something needs to be done otherwise the game will loose lots of high level players.

I'm almost 900 hours into the game and I'm only CP 560. It takes a VERY long time to reach the cap.

The real problem is how powerful CP makes you. The passives are insanely strong and make most content trivial.

MLGProPlayer

I really like the ideas OP. They'd make sense lore-wise (like Cadwell's gold/silver) while achieving a gameplay purpose. I would definitely use something like that.

Kamatsu

JR_Returns wrote: »

There is a desperate need for some form of progression for high level player. Personally I don't think a selectable hard mode is the answer. but something needs to be done otherwise the game will loose lots of high level players.

Some games have shown that an optional hard mode can work wonders - take a look at the original Guild Wars game. They added in a 'Hard Mode' to the game where combat/exploring/questing instances were turned into a much harder version (high hp, more damage done, better skill selection, etc) and the players absolutely loved it. I remember how well people took it when it was done... allowing people to go in and face tougher & harder challenges. It was also completely optional, so people who didn't want to face challenge but still get the story could do so - in fact you had to have finished the PvE game at least once to even unlock hard mode.

Having it as an optional component, especially if it effects open-world gameplay, is the *only* way to successfully keep both challenge-adverse and challenge-seekers happy. If you make forced hard/group-only content everywhere... the game will turn into what Craglorn was at first - empty except the few challenge-lovers and farmers.... and that would likely spell the end of ESO (as I doubt ZOS would keep up a game that's likely not profitable at that point).

And if all you do is add dungeons that are super-hard... that brings it's own complaints. Challenge-adverse players will complain they are being constantly locked out of combat, while challenge-seekers will still complain that over-land & questing is still too easy. So while more harder dungeons would be a good thing, it's not really the answer either.

Of all the idea's I've seen to make ESO harder, so far I'm loving the OP's thoughts the most. Trying to make it an lore based optional challenge is great. Lets people who don't want challenge to play the game as normal, while those who want challenge get the chance to switch it on.

Lore reason? Maybe could make it like a pact with one of the Deadric Princes... so have a shrine that ppl can easily get to, accept it's blessing and suddenly go into an optional hard mode scaling... so your personal scaling is a effected differently to how everyone else' is. Or something like that.

I think the key points to any kind of difficulty scaling is:

1. It has to be optional, else you run a huge risk of loosing a huge portion of the player base.
2. It can't be done via a separate instance. This would split the player base up, and likely add to the lag & other issue's... and ZOS has shown no real competence in dealing well with that. I'd say a different server/instance would be fine if enough players were for it... and ZOS could fix the lag issue's associated with that (and Cyrodil shows they haven't yet).

Kali_Despoine

I think they should release new content more often.
This would fix the "I'm bored, too easy" players
I guess now that they are releasing Chapters and DLC I hope they release content faster.
Though I think that releasing DLC content within a chapter would be a bad idea.
I have this feeling...
... this is what they plan to do to force subs into buying chapters.

TheShadowScout

tinythinker wrote: »

Some players have suggested having a difficulty toggle, maybe turn off or lower CP to a smaller cap, for example. But, only a handful of players would use this, even many who claim to be bored or lack challenge, if that's all that was offered.

Now, if they put something in with a new NPC where you equipped some item or toggled some button to amount to what is a challenge mode for some lore-friendly story reason and allowed players to earn something or some things of value that might work.

Good idea.
I for one would not link it to CP tho, but to general ability... like a "handicap" (fight at only 90% of your stats, or at ¾, or whatever), and balance it with increased chance of something -decent- dropping. Motiv pages. Blueprints. Rare stuff.

Also, we did have some of the things in story missions... fight drunk, fight poisoned... those could make for interesting daily missions. Kill a dozend enemies while drunk (and having a 10& chance to miss every attack for it). Fight through a mob of monsters while poisoned (greatly reducing your power). Clean out the dwelve while using only a broom and wearing a bucket helmet! (although, those are pay to loose... ;p)

It would make a -great- deal of sense if we had religion in tamriel, suffering some of those handicaps to show your devotion to this or that diety...

tinythinker

TheShadowScout wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Some players have suggested having a difficulty toggle, maybe turn off or lower CP to a smaller cap, for example. But, only a handful of players would use this, even many who claim to be bored or lack challenge, if that's all that was offered.

Now, if they put something in with a new NPC where you equipped some item or toggled some button to amount to what is a challenge mode for some lore-friendly story reason and allowed players to earn something or some things of value that might work.

Good idea.
I for one would not link it to CP tho, but to general ability... like a "handicap" (fight at only 90% of your stats, or at ¾, or whatever), and balance it with increased chance of something -decent- dropping. Motiv pages. Blueprints. Rare stuff.

Also, we did have some of the things in story missions... fight drunk, fight poisoned... those could make for interesting daily missions. Kill a dozend enemies while drunk (and having a 10& chance to miss every attack for it). Fight through a mob of monsters while poisoned (greatly reducing your power). Clean out the dwelve while using only a broom and wearing a bucket helmet! (although, those are pay to loose... ;p)

It would make a -great- deal of sense if we had religion in tamriel, suffering some of those handicaps to show your devotion to this or that diety...

Yeah a shorter more refined version was recently added to someone else's thread, but same essential concept of reduced healing/damage done and increased healing received by a toggle (either in your character screen or preferable some shrine.)

jedtb16_ESO

if you love the game and want to keep playing isn't that incentive enough?

maltinkilic

This is the second necro today. What's going on?

Aebaradath

maltinkilic wrote: »

This is the second necro today. What's going on?

Nothing? This is just the ordinary day on the ESO forum.

Stinkyremy

A new "max CP only" random daily and activity finder would be a god send to this game. So would an increased difficulty, max CP only version of all the dungeons.
A lot of the max CP players I see in dungeons don't even know the mechanics of the dungeon because they grinded their levels and did the dungeons at max CP where you skip over most of the mechanics.

temjiu

It would definitely be an interesting idea. They could even put stages of challenge quests and events. one at cp160, one at cp300, one at cp500, etc. that way you would have things to look forward to during the entire progression, not just once you hit "cap" which for many can be a long road.

I've even toyed with the thought of role specific challenges, things that not only push you based on your role, but help teach valuable raid/vet based skill sets. Take the challenge idea and meld it with increasing less experienced players learning curves.

NordSwordnBoard

Each Daedric "challenge" could give you three choices at the end:

20k gold (or the equivalent of spending that time farming for gold)

A Hat or Costume

A Home Furnishing

If you acquire all three, you get a title. Not wanting a grind, make it quick, but difficult.


They could see who was naked for the holiday cold water jump achievement, they could make you fight some things naked.

OmniDo

World of Warcraft had something called "The Proving Grounds", where a player would test their mettle as a DPS, Tank, or healer. There were various achievements from Bronze, to Silver, to Gold, to "Endless" ranks that got increasingly more difficult until attrition defeated the player.
They even required at one time that all players successfully complete at least a Silver-level challenge before being able to participate in Heroic (equivalent to veteran) dungeon content, thus preventing carries and successfully separating the skilled from the unskilled.

The community response?
It was a disaster.
As it turned out, there were not surprisingly far greater unskilled players than skilled players, and so a vast majority felt as though they were deliberately excluded from content (which they were, and rightfully so) that other, more skilled and tenacious players could access.
The requirements were later removed and only remained as bragging rights, with titles being the only worthwhile reward.

This will always happen within a society, whether its virtual or actual.
There will always exist those who demonstrate superior ability, either from intrinsic affinity or hard-earned refinement, most of which will also suffer from the downside of said superiority complexes like Superior Ambition.
Historically, the droves of mediocrity will attempt to drown them out with their self-entitlement and appropriation, and since Z0$'s goal is profit, then pandering to the largest audience: the lowest common denominator, will result.
Nothing you can do about it really.
Its amazing that this trend hasnt spilled over into the Olympic games...yet.