Are the "Dragon's " in Elsweyr miss identified ?

xxthir13enxx

If the Dragons want to identify as Miss...than that is their right and their business

Who are you to check their junk and argue about it?

Osteos

Dragons come in a variety of shapes and sizes in ESO

ZonasArch

They are dragons. Wyvern isn't s thing in this game. Get. Over. It. Mythical creatures aren't science. If they call them dragons, they be dragons.

ArchangelIsraphel

ZonasArch wrote: »

They are dragons. Wyvern isn't s thing in this game. Get. Over. It. Mythical creatures aren't science. If they call them dragons, they be dragons.

It appears they have gotten over it, given that they stopped replying to the thread several days ago and bowed out with grace, but the community persists in continuing to brow beat him days after the fact when he was actually quite cordial about the entire issue.

Conduit0

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

They are dragons. Wyvern isn't s thing in this game. Get. Over. It. Mythical creatures aren't science. If they call them dragons, they be dragons.

It appears they have gotten over it, given that they stopped replying to the thread several days ago and bowed out with grace, but the community persists in continuing to brow beat him days after the fact when he was actually quite cordial about the entire issue.

The OP of this specific thread may have bowed out gracefully but the fact is this same argument has been continuously brought up since the release of Skyrim nearly 8 years ago so I think its perfectly fine for people to dog pile on to reinforce the message that, no that is not how fiction works, you can not take a generic fictional thing like dragons and declare, "it can be this and only this".

Michae

Aenthel wrote: »

@Michae

I think you also missed the part that where I said the issue with all these arguments is that the creator can call it whatever he/she wants?

I never said one is wrong and other is right, it is simply a family of species that are named distinctively. And the issue with dwarves is that the "shortness" of dwarves only came after Tolkien, according to nordic lore, they are more like old men with beard and really good at fighting/smithing and all that. Nothing about height. Which coincidentally is actually quite like dwemers instead. They are just depicted as "man of the earth" kinda vibe.

And as for trolls, which are once again more nordic/scandinavian origin, have different shapes/types depending on their locations. It was basically translated as demons/fiends or something like that, again, an overarching class, not a subclass. There are various trolls, forest trolls, ice trolls etc., giving birth to various depictions.

So if you argue for the vibe then the point with dragons is the same. Ask anyone what a dragon is. What will they probably say? A giant flying reptile breathing fire, eating virgins and brave knights. Nothing about a number of legs. What are TES dragons? A giant flying reptile breathing fire, eating virgins(I mean I'm sure some of those Whiterun guards had trouble getting laid) and brave knights. They give off the right vibe, same as with dwarves and trolls and they don't have to be exactly the same as in other media. So yes, they are rightfully called dragons in game.

bearbelly

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

They are dragons. Wyvern isn't s thing in this game. Get. Over. It. Mythical creatures aren't science. If they call them dragons, they be dragons.

It appears they have gotten over it, given that they stopped replying to the thread several days ago and bowed out with grace, but the community persists in continuing to brow beat him days after the fact when he was actually quite cordial about the entire issue.

You and I didn't read the same posts from OP, apparently.
His attitude was not cordial nor graceful in any of his responses in this thread.
He insulted everyone who didn't agree with him.

lassitershawn

I feel like the more important difference is that wyverns don't breathe fire and dragons do...? In any event a quick adventure on wikipedia yielded these:


The first has four legs AND two pairs of wings but is still considered a dragon, and the second only has four limbs in total, which you argue should be called a wyvern.

The wikipedia article "Wyvern" states that "Wyverns are very similar to dragons, and in many languages, cultures and contexts no clear distinction is made between the two. Since the sixteenth century, in English, Scottish, and Irish heraldry, the key difference has been that a wyvern has two legs, whereas a dragon has four. However, this distinction is not commonly observed in the heraldry of other European countries, where two-legged dragon-like creatures being called dragons is entirely acceptable." It is definitely worth noting that the most important culture related to dragons in ESO is Nord culture, or Scandinavian culture as a close real life analog. Not English, Scottish, or Irish culture to be sure.

Uryel

The problem I have with dragons is that they don't seem hostile at all.

I mean, I watched my wife play on PTS, and she arrived at some farm where a Dragon had landed. The Dragon was peacefully resting in the field, not even bother the peasant that was laboring a few meters away. At that distance, it would have been entirely possible the khajiiti farmer and the dragon were having a pleasant conversation while working the fields.

If they are such a threat, make tham ostensibly hostile. Make them KILL the peasant and yol-toor-shul the farm or something. Just having the Dragon peacefully resting near the farmer doing nothing does littlke to give us a sense of threat...

dannymcgr81b14_ESO

"4 legs good, 2 legs better!"

ZonasArch

bearbelly wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

They are dragons. Wyvern isn't s thing in this game. Get. Over. It. Mythical creatures aren't science. If they call them dragons, they be dragons.

It appears they have gotten over it, given that they stopped replying to the thread several days ago and bowed out with grace, but the community persists in continuing to brow beat him days after the fact when he was actually quite cordial about the entire issue.

You and I didn't read the same posts from OP, apparently.
His attitude was not cordial nor graceful in any of his responses in this thread.
He insulted everyone who didn't agree with him.

Thank you!

ZonasArch

Partieplayin wrote: »

Well I guess dolphins are sharks according to the logical responses I've seen so far and why is that because someone says it's so lol. Ignorance is bliss

Partieplayin wrote: »

People say that dragons are mythical creatures because no evidence has been found of there existence yet almost every culture around the know world has some form of flying serpent in there lore I find that a bit strange consider golbal communication supposedly wasn't a thing. Just like all the ancient megalithic structures were built with chisels and hammers right

Partieplayin wrote: »

I have to admit I was not aware this was a long debated thing. I didn't play Skyrim when it first came out so I missed all that debate stuff, but have personally noticed in recent years the original ideal of a dragon has changed and the visual difference between a Wyvren and a Dragon literally means nothing anymore because people choose it to be.

@ArchangelIsraphel so very gracefully! 😂 Seriously though... Pedant, arrogant, know it all behavior. Stubborn little precious snowflake behaving as if his own understanding if the subject is the only one that matters, when everyone else said that none of it matters. When he finally saw how bad this was, he just cowardly went away. He? She? Doesn't matter. Ran from the conversation because they don't want to be brought down from their podium. This isn't cordial or elegant or whatever you described it to be. Sorry.

Jamdarius

Partieplayin wrote: »

It seems to me there are allot of misconceptions and miss identifications of Dragons in today's modern age . Simply put Dragons have 4 legs and wings whereas Wyvren's which is the artists rendition in the expansion have 2 legs and wings attached to the arms making them Wyvren's . Historically or mythologically ESO's classification of the creatures are incorrect.
Why don't we call carnotaurus a tyrannosaurus? Because they are not the same creature and identifying one as the other is incorrect.

I think this should be changed asap younger people who are ignorant of the fact or people may just not know the difference or the truth. I think misleading people into thinking these are dragons and not wyverns is not right. Please just call them as they are "Wyvrens" or design actual Dragons for the game please and thank you.

Just so you know, depending on country or region in our world you have different look of dragons and stories about them.
For example Chinese Loong dragons do not even have wings and are more similar to snakes with legs. So you could say even Smaug from Hobbit was not a dragon, just a flying reptilian who talked if you come from China going by your logic.

The clear distinction you have in mind between the Dragons and Wyverns started mostly due to the RPG's influence.
Even now in some fantasy settings Wyverns are subspecies of Dragons, let's say cousins just a bit less intelligent, smaller and without ability to speak.

GoT also has Dragons which are not dragons. It is just a matter of perspective.

Jamdarius

Michae wrote: »

Aenthel wrote: »

@Michae

I think you also missed the part that where I said the issue with all these arguments is that the creator can call it whatever he/she wants?

I never said one is wrong and other is right, it is simply a family of species that are named distinctively. And the issue with dwarves is that the "shortness" of dwarves only came after Tolkien, according to nordic lore, they are more like old men with beard and really good at fighting/smithing and all that. Nothing about height. Which coincidentally is actually quite like dwemers instead. They are just depicted as "man of the earth" kinda vibe.

And as for trolls, which are once again more nordic/scandinavian origin, have different shapes/types depending on their locations. It was basically translated as demons/fiends or something like that, again, an overarching class, not a subclass. There are various trolls, forest trolls, ice trolls etc., giving birth to various depictions.

So if you argue for the vibe then the point with dragons is the same. Ask anyone what a dragon is. What will they probably say? A giant flying reptile breathing fire, eating virgins and brave knights. Nothing about a number of legs. What are TES dragons? A giant flying reptile breathing fire, eating virgins(I mean I'm sure some of those Whiterun guards had trouble getting laid) and brave knights. They give off the right vibe, same as with dwarves and trolls and they don't have to be exactly the same as in other media. So yes, they are rightfully called dragons in game.

They didn't have the trouble getting laid, they got arrow to the knee after all!

Glurin

Uryel wrote: »

The problem I have with dragons is that they don't seem hostile at all.

I mean, I watched my wife play on PTS, and she arrived at some farm where a Dragon had landed. The Dragon was peacefully resting in the field, not even bother the peasant that was laboring a few meters away. At that distance, it would have been entirely possible the khajiiti farmer and the dragon were having a pleasant conversation while working the fields.

If they are such a threat, make tham ostensibly hostile. Make them KILL the peasant and yol-toor-shul the farm or something. Just having the Dragon peacefully resting near the farmer doing nothing does littlke to give us a sense of threat...

Well what do you expect? They just woke up after all. Haven't even had time to get their morning coffee yet, so they're still half asleep. Which also explains why they're so grouchy when you do go try to have a conversation with them.

Michae

Jamdarius wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Aenthel wrote: »

@Michae

I think you also missed the part that where I said the issue with all these arguments is that the creator can call it whatever he/she wants?

I never said one is wrong and other is right, it is simply a family of species that are named distinctively. And the issue with dwarves is that the "shortness" of dwarves only came after Tolkien, according to nordic lore, they are more like old men with beard and really good at fighting/smithing and all that. Nothing about height. Which coincidentally is actually quite like dwemers instead. They are just depicted as "man of the earth" kinda vibe.

And as for trolls, which are once again more nordic/scandinavian origin, have different shapes/types depending on their locations. It was basically translated as demons/fiends or something like that, again, an overarching class, not a subclass. There are various trolls, forest trolls, ice trolls etc., giving birth to various depictions.

So if you argue for the vibe then the point with dragons is the same. Ask anyone what a dragon is. What will they probably say? A giant flying reptile breathing fire, eating virgins and brave knights. Nothing about a number of legs. What are TES dragons? A giant flying reptile breathing fire, eating virgins(I mean I'm sure some of those Whiterun guards had trouble getting laid) and brave knights. They give off the right vibe, same as with dwarves and trolls and they don't have to be exactly the same as in other media. So yes, they are rightfully called dragons in game.

They didn't have the trouble getting laid, they got arrow to the knee after all!

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

Nope Nope Nope NOPE

How...!? Why....!?
What is people’s obsession with this distinction between Wyverns and Dragons!?

Guess we should rename this lil fella too

Yo is that a Wyvernfly? Sick!

Conduit0

ZonasArch wrote: »

Partieplayin wrote: »

Well I guess dolphins are sharks according to the logical responses I've seen so far and why is that because someone says it's so lol. Ignorance is bliss

Partieplayin wrote: »

People say that dragons are mythical creatures because no evidence has been found of there existence yet almost every culture around the know world has some form of flying serpent in there lore I find that a bit strange consider golbal communication supposedly wasn't a thing. Just like all the ancient megalithic structures were built with chisels and hammers right

Partieplayin wrote: »

I have to admit I was not aware this was a long debated thing. I didn't play Skyrim when it first came out so I missed all that debate stuff, but have personally noticed in recent years the original ideal of a dragon has changed and the visual difference between a Wyvren and a Dragon literally means nothing anymore because people choose it to be.

@ArchangelIsraphel so very gracefully! 😂 Seriously though... Pedant, arrogant, know it all behavior. Stubborn little precious snowflake behaving as if his own understanding if the subject is the only one that matters, when everyone else said that none of it matters. When he finally saw how bad this was, he just cowardly went away. He? She? Doesn't matter. Ran from the conversation because they don't want to be brought down from their podium. This isn't cordial or elegant or whatever you described it to be. Sorry.

I love that he actually brings up the fact that every culture has dragons in their mythology but completely misses the fact that depictions of dragons varied wildly across cultures.

rfennell_ESO

Conduit0 wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Partieplayin wrote: »

Well I guess dolphins are sharks according to the logical responses I've seen so far and why is that because someone says it's so lol. Ignorance is bliss

Partieplayin wrote: »

People say that dragons are mythical creatures because no evidence has been found of there existence yet almost every culture around the know world has some form of flying serpent in there lore I find that a bit strange consider golbal communication supposedly wasn't a thing. Just like all the ancient megalithic structures were built with chisels and hammers right

Partieplayin wrote: »

I have to admit I was not aware this was a long debated thing. I didn't play Skyrim when it first came out so I missed all that debate stuff, but have personally noticed in recent years the original ideal of a dragon has changed and the visual difference between a Wyvren and a Dragon literally means nothing anymore because people choose it to be.

@ArchangelIsraphel so very gracefully! 😂 Seriously though... Pedant, arrogant, know it all behavior. Stubborn little precious snowflake behaving as if his own understanding if the subject is the only one that matters, when everyone else said that none of it matters. When he finally saw how bad this was, he just cowardly went away. He? She? Doesn't matter. Ran from the conversation because they don't want to be brought down from their podium. This isn't cordial or elegant or whatever you described it to be. Sorry.

I love that he actually brings up the fact that every culture has dragons in their mythology but completely misses the fact that depictions of dragons varied wildly across cultures.

"varied wildly" might somehow be a understatement.

In the USA I'd gather most would describe "a dragon" with Gigantic, Scaled, Winged and Breathes Fire.

ArchangelIsraphel

Conduit0 wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

They are dragons. Wyvern isn't s thing in this game. Get. Over. It. Mythical creatures aren't science. If they call them dragons, they be dragons.

It appears they have gotten over it, given that they stopped replying to the thread several days ago and bowed out with grace, but the community persists in continuing to brow beat him days after the fact when he was actually quite cordial about the entire issue.

The OP of this specific thread may have bowed out gracefully but the fact is this same argument has been continuously brought up since the release of Skyrim nearly 8 years ago so I think its perfectly fine for people to dog pile on to reinforce the message that, no that is not how fiction works, you can not take a generic fictional thing like dragons and declare, "it can be this and only this".

bearbelly wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

They are dragons. Wyvern isn't s thing in this game. Get. Over. It. Mythical creatures aren't science. If they call them dragons, they be dragons.

It appears they have gotten over it, given that they stopped replying to the thread several days ago and bowed out with grace, but the community persists in continuing to brow beat him days after the fact when he was actually quite cordial about the entire issue.

You and I didn't read the same posts from OP, apparently.
His attitude was not cordial nor graceful in any of his responses in this thread.
He insulted everyone who didn't agree with him.

ZonasArch wrote: »

Partieplayin wrote: »

Well I guess dolphins are sharks according to the logical responses I've seen so far and why is that because someone says it's so lol. Ignorance is bliss

Partieplayin wrote: »

People say that dragons are mythical creatures because no evidence has been found of there existence yet almost every culture around the know world has some form of flying serpent in there lore I find that a bit strange consider golbal communication supposedly wasn't a thing. Just like all the ancient megalithic structures were built with chisels and hammers right

Partieplayin wrote: »

I have to admit I was not aware this was a long debated thing. I didn't play Skyrim when it first came out so I missed all that debate stuff, but have personally noticed in recent years the original ideal of a dragon has changed and the visual difference between a Wyvren and a Dragon literally means nothing anymore because people choose it to be.

@ArchangelIsraphel so very gracefully! 😂 Seriously though... Pedant, arrogant, know it all behavior. Stubborn little precious snowflake behaving as if his own understanding if the subject is the only one that matters, when everyone else said that none of it matters. When he finally saw how bad this was, he just cowardly went away. He? She? Doesn't matter. Ran from the conversation because they don't want to be brought down from their podium. This isn't cordial or elegant or whatever you described it to be. Sorry.

*shrugs* See it as you will, we all have our own point of view when it comes to how we see the words of others, especially on the internet. Even though I disagree with him, I hardly blame him for leaving the thread once some posts became abusive and nonsensical rather than a discussion. The tone of some of the posts here might be seen as far more negative than his were. I honestly didn't see the insult, nor feel insulted by him while speaking with him.

Certainly he was opinionated, but we all are aren't we?

The fact of the matter is, people don't actually have to stick around to be debased by others. If you or anyone else felt insulted by him, it's okay for you to leave the thread as well- I certainly wouldn't think less of you for doing so as I don't expect you stick around if the things he said made you feel bad either!

Call that what you will. The great thing about being human and having choices is being at the liberty to leave a thing well enough alone regardless of what others might think of you for doing so. That isn't cowardice in my book. In the long run, it's a momentary thing that will pass.

Either way, I would have liked to have a decent discussion about mythology with him had he stuck around. He did make some observations that were interesting.

Iccotak

the term Wyvern just means snake
Dragon also just means snake

That's why most cultures have a "Dragon" in their mythology; because most places had serpents, or large reptiles, whether they lived on land or in the water.

They're the same thing.

"Wyverns" in their Mythological origin are essentially dragons as they didn't have any 6-limbed dragons in their mythos.

By the by, mythologies are an ever changing and evolving thing. The dragon with six limbs is actually pretty recent in comparison to most depictions of dragons, which most of the time is a snake... that sometimes has limbs.

The definition of Wyvern that was presented in the video didn't say they were 'cousins' or a 'distant relative'. It said it was a dragons that is depicted with 2 wings and 2 legs.

Jamdarius wrote: »

The clear distinction you have in mind between the Dragons and Wyverns started mostly due to the RPG's influence.
Even now in some fantasy settings Wyverns are subspecies of Dragons, let's say cousins just a bit less intelligent, smaller and without ability to speak.

GoT also has Dragons which are not dragons. It is just a matter of perspective.

THIS

Iccotak

@lassitershawn

"WeLl AcTualLY (pushes glasses up ) I would like to note that one of the pictures shows a beast with four wings and four legs, please let it be noted that is not a dragon"

Iccotak

Partieplayin wrote: »

@skerkro when I grew up Dragons were drangons and Wyvrens were Wyvrens .

It has only recently come to my attention that the younger generation cares not which is Ture but which they care to believe is true. If you have any sense you will discover all the falsities in our history all the *** we are taught to be Ture when our minds were young like a spung
For example : "Christopher Columbus was the first one to discover America"
-- if you believe this your are the most ignorant person I have ever met.

What worries me the most is that no one seems to care anymore, this is why history will repete itself because no one cares . Not that this is as improtant part of our history .But I digress I really don't care to discuss this subject any further because there are far to many ignorant people that I don't have the time or energy to educate .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Brrrofski

As someone who's country has a dragon on their flag I feel like I have authority on the matter.....

I don't really care...

If anyone is from Bhutan feel free to contribute your opinion as someone who also has authority to talk on the matter.

Fermian

From my point of view wyverns are more beast like. And dragons are magical and more developed creatures. The shape is not relevant to me, dragons have lots of different designs.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

dannymcgr81b14_ESO wrote: »

"4 legs good, 2 legs better!"

I thought that was an animal far reference

barney2525

Partieplayin wrote: »

People say that dragons are mythical creatures because no evidence has been found of there existence yet almost every culture around the know world has some form of flying serpent in there lore I find that a bit strange consider golbal communication supposedly wasn't a thing. Just like all the ancient megalithic structures were built with chisels and hammers right

Just means hallucinogens are prevalent around the world.

barney2525

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Partieplayin wrote: »

People say that dragons are mythical creatures because no evidence has been found of there existence yet almost every culture around the know world has some form of flying serpent in there lore I find that a bit strange consider golbal communication supposedly wasn't a thing. Just like all the ancient megalithic structures were built with chisels and hammers right

Seen this guy on TV a few times.

I can't believe anyone takes anything he says seriously.

ManwithBeard9

Y'all getting played.

Quaesivi

Dragons, overall, did come to describe various overpowered creatures. In some cases there were times when krakens and leviathans were also classified under dragons. So in the end, they all did come under the same classification as dragons, it is both the name of a species and also a family. Same as lions/tigers being in the cat family, yet also having a separate animal called cat, same with dogs and wolves.

Not to forget, technically, chickens are dinosaurs, there is also that.

Main classification did come down to, eventually, to legs (not including wings). 4 legs are dragons (yes, including chinese dragons, obviously), 2 legs, wyverns, wyrms are mostly serpents. Only drakes are a bit ambigious as they are used interchangeably with dragons, and also with anything under dragon class but not under wyvern/wyrm and so on.

This is all, of course, the mythological classification over many years.

The creator of a lore can call a creature whatever he/she wants and within that lore, it will be right. It is just that modifications on existing lores into unwanted forms (mainly the GoT wyverns being utterly useless creatures that lacks any sanity, which contradicts dragons being ridiculously powerful and intelligent) that *** people off most of the time. At least TES dragons are powerful, and have the brains to match, so that never truly bothered me.

Think of it this way, if someone created a lore where dogs/cats or any beloved house pets were the given names to creatures who were utterly vile, despicable and outright hateful, it would cause an outrage. It is basically the same thing, but mostly amongst "nerds".