PTS Update 22 - Feedback Thread for Necromancer

Contraptions

Sigh, where to begin.

Let me just preface this post by stating that I have been waiting for Necromancers to be added to ESO since beta back in 2014. I have always tried to play as a necromancer/summoner type character in most RPGs including Skyrim/Torchlight 2/Diablo 3/Path of Exile etc. and other MMOs like RIFT. And based on what I have experienced so far, I can only say that I am very VERY disappointed and underwhelmed.

I am not going to focus on the numerical power aspect of Necromancers, since numbers and balancing can always be tweaked in future patches, and min/maxing and number crunching isn't really my kind of thing. I am instead going to focus on the overall feel of Necromancers as a class on the whole and general class skill synergy.

What are your favorite and least Necromancer abilities, and why?

I honestly don't like any of the necromancer skills except maybe the undead summoning skills. Summoning the skeletal mage/ wraith healer in combat was perhaps the only time I felt somewhat like a necro. The rest of the skills felt like generic and less effective versions of other skills that are already present in game. Some of the skills also have effects that don't make any sense in context.

For example, Life amid Death is a area based heal over time that requires corpses to be truly effective, if none are present then it's a laughable AOE instant heal. Compare that to Healing Springs, a true staple of any endgame healer build. Healing Springs is an AOE, stackable, restores magicka to the healer, can synergise with the Master's Resto staff to restore stamina, and casting it is quick and simple with no conditional requirements. LAD can consume corpses to extend the duration, but in most combat scenarios in PVE and especially in PVP you're going to be constantly moving around and repositioning, thus the extra duration granted by corpse consumption is completely pointless. Given both HS and LAD have the same radius HS is going to be the superior choice always.

Another example: Skeletal Mage deals shock damage and explodes when effect ends dealing Shock damage around it. A RANGED pet standing far away from enemies deals damage AROUND ITSELF when it dies. See the problem yet?

I am very disappointed at the lack of any sort of permanent undead pet or follower. It is the one defining feature of practically every necromancer in other RPGs and it is sadly missing here.

As for least favourite skills, the three corpse siphon skills just seem so clunky to use currently and feel really lackluster. The Shock Siphon skill for example, I generally can't control where corpses are going to appear in combat given how pet and enemy AI just does whatever it wants, so unlike practically every other damage AOE skill in game I can't control where and when the AOE is going to be placed. Also, the corpse consumption mechanic means that I have to wait for specific conditions to be met before I can actually cast the skill, and again if the corpse is in a bad place, the skill is COMPLETELY USELESS. Yes I know I can move myself to reposition the damage tether (but not the shock pool) but compared to other AOE damage skills, where the damage appears exactly where I want it at exactly the moment I need it, why would I even bother with this skill at all in ANY CIRCUMSTANCE? I really don't like the corpse consumption mechanic in general, will elaborate on that later.

I don't want to go around critiquing each skill one by one, but all of this ties to my general problem with the necromancer currently. The class skills feel like an incoherent mishmash with no central identity. Take a look at the damage types for example, Sorcs focus on dealing shock and magic damage, DKs use flame, Wardens use frost and magic, NBs use magic etc. Currently, on the magicka necro side, the Flesh Colossus and Boneyard deal frost damage, the mage and siphon deal shock damage, Flame Skull and Blastbones deal flame damage, and the scythe deals magical damage. What the hell?

Lorewise, the playstyle that would fit a magicka necro the best would be a frost and magical DOT class that focuses on debuffing and wearing enemies down over time with the help of undead pets. I understand that kind of overlaps with warden, but it's better than this weird rojak of damage types we have now.

Do the Necromancer’s visuals and themes feel unique compared to other classes?

Kind of, but slapping skulls and bones and scythes on skill effects and spell projectiles isn't going to make them feel more necromancer like by themselves, those are just visual effects. To put it in context, I felt more like a necromancer in RIFT back in 2013 lobbing generic green and black blobs and summoning green pools of dark magic at enemies than here in ESO. Most of the necro class skills like Flesh Colossus, Bone Atro transformation, Life amid Death look really flashy to the point of being obnoxious but again, it's all style over substance.

I can offer some visual effect critiques like how the LAD sigil effect is REALLY BRIGHT and obscures the green glow of corpses. The three opaque tombstones in Boneyard just seem so out of place and I think the Boneyard skill should just use the Grave Grasp visual effects instead. I could also mention how casting most class skills causes your weapon to disappear, and how the Flame Skull animation looks kinda like a recoloured Mend Wounds from Psijic Order. But changing them doesn't change the fact that the skill effects themselves are really mediocre.

Do the Necromancer’s abilities and playstyle feel unique compared to other classes?

No, at this moment necro feels like an totally inferior Sorceror or Warden with a clunky corpse mechanic tacked onto most of its skills making them annoying to use.

Did you enjoy the Necromancer’s corpse generation/corpse spending gameplay?

Overall, no. I don't like how necromancer skills in general have too much of a reliance on the corpse consumption mechanic and I think this system should just be removed. It makes it such that corpses become a fourth resource that needs to be balanced in addition to health, stamina and magicka. Frankly in combat there is no good way to count the number of corpses you have available to you on the fly. Most corpses also disappear by themselves, which complicates things. In addition, enemies that disintegrate into ash piles due to flame/shock damage do not count as corpses. The corpse system just doesn't work well in combat, since like I've mentioned earlier you can't control when and where they appear.

Currently, the base versions of most skills that require corpses are just inferior if you cast them with no corpses around. In my opinion, consuming corpses when casting spells should trigger a bonus condition, not like the current system where players are punished for casting spells without corpses around. A reduction in the number of skills that actually need corpses would also be nice, flavour wise only summoning undead should consume corpses, no reason for heals or the siphon skills to use corpses as well.

As an example, here's how one skill could be reworked. Skeletal Mage: now a permanent summon. Activating this skill again when near a corpse will consume it to summon an additional temporary Skeletal Mage that deals more damage. Leaves behind a corpse when effect ends.

In that example, the base skill is already powerful and useful, and consuming a corpse allows you to summon a stronger version of the skill as a bonus.

Did you receive a bounty for using “Criminal Act” Necromancer abilities in towns? If so, what are your thoughts on the experience?

Yes, and not just in towns either, I've gotten bounties while questing also where combat takes places near friendly NPCs. I am going to be brutally honest here: I absolutely hate this system.

Yes, lorewise, I get why this system was added. Necromancy is illegal, the Worm Cult is bad, blah blah blah. But if you look at the bigger picture, so many other lore inconsistencies come up if you're going to use lore as a defense. We have werewolves and vampires walking around town with no reaction from NPCs. We have duels going on in town, where two people LITERALLY TRY TO MURDER EACH OTHER IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, and no reaction from the guards. We have Sorcerors conjuring Daedra in the middle of town and no reaction from the gurards. As I play through the story content as a necromancer, I will be able to join the Psijic Order and reach top rank with them (you know, the group which famously expelled Mannimarco for necromancy), I'm going to become top rank with the Mages Guild (you know, the group led by Vanus Galerion who famously opposed Mannimarco in the first place), I'm going to become the champion of Meridia (you know, the Daedric prince which famously hates undead). Using lore as a defense for this system is utter ***.

There is absolutely no gameplay benefit or lore justification for making necro skills, or any sort of skill in general illegal unless it's being used to explicitly do illegal things like attack NPCs. Remove the bounties and illegal reactions from NPCs completely. Necro skills are already pretty bad, don't give people more reasons to not play a necro in the first place.

Were you aware certain Necromancer abilities were considered “Criminal Acts” prior to using these abilities in towns?

Yes.

Does the Necromancer feel faithful to established lore and themes in The Elder Scrolls?

As mentioned earlier, there are many possible lore issues with playable necromancers. But I am willing to ignore them if the gameplay feels good, if the necromancer feels like a true minion master class. And at this point, it doesn't. It just doesn't. My Sorceror, with its ability to conjure permanent combat pets, active pets skills and pet synergy, feels more like a necromancer than the necromancer itself. I am overall very disappointed with the necromancer as it currently is.

Do you plan on playing a Necromancer as your new “main” character when Update 22 goes live?

It pains me to say this, but no.

Do you have any other general feedback?

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Since you're in charge of class balance now that Wrobel is gone, I think pinging you is appropriate. Here are some concepts from the RIFT necromancer that I really liked, and if adapted to ESO would help make necromancers feel more thematic and fun to play as a true minion master.

1. Strong synergy between the necromancer and the undead minion. Neither the pet or the necro themselves were very powerful, but together they could put out some real damage. The pet had skills that applied stacks of debuffs that the necro could consume to deal damage, the debuffs made targets take more damage etc. The necro could cast AOEs that made enemies take more damage from pets. Undead pets in RIFT had their own skills that the necro could control, here in ESO the pets are nothing more than glorified DOTs. The only synergy skill present in ESO now is the Empowering Grasp which buffs the pet slightly.

2. More variety of minions, and minions that last permanently. In RIFT you could choose between three permanent skeleton minions, a melee DPS, a melee tank, or a ranged mage DPS (only one active at a time). Here in ESO there is no permanent pet, and no melee or tank based minions. In RIFT once enough debuff stacks were accumulated, an ultimate ability that summoned temporary versions of the melee DPS and ranged mage DPS pet could be cast, giving you up to three powerful minions for a time being. Reworking one of the current necro ultimates to summon a powerful yet temporary pet like the Sorceror's storm atronach would be nice.

3. Siphon/tether style skills to be cast on enemies directly. In RIFT, the siphon equivalent was a channeled beam spell that would deal damage over time to the enemy while healing the necromancer and the minion. Changing the ESO siphon skills to target enemies instead of corpses would feel better overall, alleviate positioning concerns, and feel more thematic (i.e. cursing enemies with DOTs, siphoning their health directly).

4. Reduce reliance on the corpse mechanic to cast skills. As mentioned earlier, the corpse mechanic isn't very fun in practice.


I know that with Elsweyr coming out in just a few weeks it's too late to make any major redesigns to the class skills, but hopefully changes can be made in the future to make necromancer more appealing and more thematic, instead of an "ignominious corpse-herder" like it currently is. Fingers crossed.

wheem_ESO

Contraptions wrote: »

For example, Life amid Death is a area based heal over time that requires corpses to be truly effective, if none are present then it's a laughable AOE instant heal. Compare that to Healing Springs, a true staple of any endgame healer build. Healing Springs is an AOE, stackable, restores magicka to the healer, can synergise with the Master's Resto staff to restore stamina, and casting it is quick and simple with no conditional requirements. LAD can consume corpses to extend the duration, but in most combat scenarios in PVE and especially in PVP you're going to be constantly moving around and repositioning, thus the extra duration granted by corpse consumption is completely pointless. Given both HS and LAD have the same radius HS is going to be the superior choice always.

While I think Healing Springs is generally pretty bad for PvP, the AOE Necromancer heal also has issues, as you point out. The cleanse on one of the morphs is theoretically really great, but needing to have a corpse + your team all crammed into a particular area at the exact moment you need the heal + cleanse just isn't realistic in most cases. This is especially true once we take into account the super short duration of corpses, and the fact that 3 out of the 4 class abilities that generate corpses will try to put them at your feet, instead of wherever your teammates are. Even then, 2 out of those 3 abilities will sometimes leave corpses well out of position if you're moving around a lot, and the one ability that doesn't try to leave the corpse next to the caster is Blastbones, which will also often end up in the wrong place because of the target's movement.

Contraptions wrote: »

Another example: Skeletal Mage deals shock damage and explodes when effect ends dealing Shock damage around it. A RANGED pet standing far away from enemies deals damage AROUND ITSELF when it dies. See the problem yet?

The self-explosion of the Skeletal Arcanist was removed before PTS started, and instead the direct shock damage cast itself is a (very small) AOE. In PvP, this actually makes the skill worse than it would be if you didn't morph it at all; the very weak, unreliable (as its target can't be chosen) damage will be further reduced by Stamina builds that are running Major Evasion, and it won't be able to do anything worthwhile to enemy pets, either.

Contraptions wrote: »

As for least favourite skills, the three corpse siphon skills just seem so clunky to use currently and feel really lackluster. The Shock Siphon skill for example, I generally can't control where corpses are going to appear in combat given how pet and enemy AI just does whatever it wants, so unlike practically every other damage AOE skill in game I can't control where and when the AOE is going to be placed. Also, the corpse consumption mechanic means that I have to wait for specific conditions to be met before I can actually cast the skill, and again if the corpse is in a bad place, the skill is COMPLETELY USELESS. Yes I know I can move myself to reposition the damage tether (but not the shock pool) but compared to other AOE damage skills, where the damage appears exactly where I want it at exactly the moment I need it, why would I even bother with this skill at all in ANY CIRCUMSTANCE? I really don't like the corpse consumption mechanic in general, will elaborate on that later.

Yea, Mystic Siphon seems like a downright terrible ability to me. It might be pretty decent for AOE grinding while you level up, but since it's the final skill in the tree it honestly isn't even very good in that capacity. The cost-to-resource-return ratio excludes it from being used as a sustain mechanic, and the narrow beam + small AOE around a corpse makes the damage impossible to land in PvP (and in some PvE situations too, I suppose). 'Course, even if you do get it to land, the damage is quite lackluster.

Contraptions wrote: »

I don't want to go around critiquing each skill one by one, but all of this ties to my general problem with the necromancer currently. The class skills feel like an incoherent mishmash with no central identity. Take a look at the damage types for example, Sorcs focus on dealing shock and magic damage, DKs use flame, Wardens use frost and magic, NBs use magic etc. Currently, on the magicka necro side, the Flesh Colossus and Boneyard deal frost damage, the mage and siphon deal shock damage, Flame Skull and Blastbones deal flame damage, and the scythe deals magical damage. What the hell?

I'm actually OK with the idea of damage types being fairly spread out, since that's sort of an "identity" all its own. Sure, it would seem to make certain damage sets - like Netch's Touch - unattractive, but I'm OK with that. 'Course, in practice, a Necromancer's PvP damage is basically all fire-based. The only worthwhile non-Ultimate offensive abilities are Blastbones and Ricochet Skull, which are both fire; everything else is either too weak, too hard to actually land, or both.

Contraptions wrote: »

Did you enjoy the Necromancer’s corpse generation/corpse spending gameplay?

Overall, no. I don't like how necromancer skills in general have too much of a reliance on the corpse consumption mechanic and I think this system should just be removed. It makes it such that corpses become a fourth resource that needs to be balanced in addition to health, stamina and magicka. Frankly in combat there is no good way to count the number of corpses you have available to you on the fly. Most corpses also disappear by themselves, which complicates things. In addition, enemies that disintegrate into ash piles due to flame/shock damage do not count as corpses. The corpse system just doesn't work well in combat, since like I've mentioned earlier you can't control when and where they appear.

I'm not a huge fan of the corpse mechanic either, but I seriously doubt ZOS would just remove it at this point. The best we can probably hope for is longer corpse durations, and perhaps some specific ability tweaks...Like perhaps Life Amid Death being able to consume a corpse that's near the caster in order to trigger the effect at the target location, or Mystic Siphon's damage triggering in an AOE around the caster and/or applying the effect as a DOT to any target it touches.

Contraptions wrote: »

Did you receive a bounty for using “Criminal Act” Necromancer abilities in towns? If so, what are your thoughts on the experience?

Yes, and not just in towns either, I've gotten bounties while questing also where combat takes places near friendly NPCs. I am going to be brutally honest here: I absolutely hate this system.

Yes, lorewise, I get why this system was added. Necromancy is illegal, the Worm Cult is bad, blah blah blah. But if you look at the bigger picture, so many other lore inconsistencies come up if you're going to use lore as a defense. We have werewolves and vampires walking around town with no reaction from NPCs. We have duels going on in town, where two people LITERALLY TRY TO MURDER EACH OTHER IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, and no reaction from the guards. We have Sorcerors conjuring Daedra in the middle of town and no reaction from the gurards. As I play through the story content as a necromancer, I will be able to join the Psijic Order and reach top rank with them (you know, the group which famously expelled Mannimarco for necromancy), I'm going to become top rank with the Mages Guild (you know, the group led by Vanus Galerion who famously opposed Mannimarco in the first place), I'm going to become the champion of Meridia (you know, the Daedric prince which famously hates undead). Using lore as a defense for this system is utter ***.

There is absolutely no gameplay benefit or lore justification for making necro skills, or any sort of skill in general illegal unless it's being used to explicitly do illegal things like attack NPCs. Remove the bounties and illegal reactions from NPCs completely. Necro skills are already pretty bad, don't give people more reasons to not play a necro in the first place.

Preach.

Ashamray

I have several major problems with Necromancer's gameplay.

Visual pollution
Shocking siphon, Life amid Death and Restoring tether - all of them are too bright and flashy. It annoys my eyes and I don't even want to see how it will look like when different Necromances use them.

Clunky blastbones
No need to slow down the summoning! ESO is a fast game, the fastest I've ever played. Blastbone skeleton slowly appears, then it waits, then it runs (and gets snares from players). Sometimes it doesn't use its leaps, sometimes it can't avoid rock or another small terrain obstacle and just waits. Very frustating.

Poor CC
With Blastbones' delayed mechanic Necromancer looks like a Warden. Poor CC choice leads to sword and shield for stamina and Master's staves for magicka. Poor deversity.

Goliath
It is a pure abuse. 30k hp is horrible idea. It leads to broken numbers (Scythe heal becomes plain broken, Ravenouse Goliath morph is literally a Devouring Swarm ultimate on steroids, etc).

Tethers
I personally dislike idea of tethers. Visuals are weak and dirty, super bright and flashy. Crossing tethers from several players add even more graphic pollution. Connection between character model and tether poorly designed and looks unfinished.

Summons
While Spirit Mender both morphs look interesting, Archer and Arcanist skeletons are flat and boring. They are DoT's. I expected something different to be honest.

Savos_Saren

The Necromancer's tanking CC is very underwhelming.

Now that immunities are going to be abundant in PVP- could you add a small DOT or direct damage to Ghostly Embrace? It would be good to put it on par with Dark Talons or Gripping Shards.

Grisemn

I really like the necromancer, but i do think the animations should show your weapons, as right now they go away with every skill you use and it really dosent look that good, atleast have the weapons sheated if making them show up during the animation would be to much work

Vercingetorix

Please tie both morphs of Shocking Siphon to a resource return for each morph. It's so weird that stamina Necromancers get the shaft on sustain because it is misplaced somewhere else on the class tree under a HEALING ability. Why? Also, Shocking Siphon and its morphs are a net loss in resources despite attempting to return resources and also balanced by requiring a corpse - so why not tune the spell cost down and make it worth slotting?

Revokus

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Please tie both morphs of Shocking Siphon to a resource return for each morph. It's so weird that stamina Necromancers get the shaft on sustain because it is misplaced somewhere else on the class tree under a HEALING ability. Why? Also, Shocking Siphon and its morphs are a net loss in resources despite attempting to return resources and also balanced by requiring a corpse - so why not tune the spell cost down and make it worth slotting?

Also this skill for magicka isn’t worth slotting in pvp. The damage is almost nonexistent and it should also damage around the caster like the healing tether morph that heals around the caster.

wheem_ESO

Revokus wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Please tie both morphs of Shocking Siphon to a resource return for each morph. It's so weird that stamina Necromancers get the shaft on sustain because it is misplaced somewhere else on the class tree under a HEALING ability. Why? Also, Shocking Siphon and its morphs are a net loss in resources despite attempting to return resources and also balanced by requiring a corpse - so why not tune the spell cost down and make it worth slotting?

Also this skill for magicka isn’t worth slotting in pvp. The damage is almost nonexistent and it should also damage around the caster like the healing tether morph that heals around the caster.

Agreed - I've suggested that for Mystic Siphon before. Or, alternatively, have it apply the effect as a DOT to anyone touched by the beam or corpse-centered AOE. Actually landing this ability in PvP, beyond a few extremely low damage ticks here and there, just isn't realistic right now. The only real use for Mystic Siphon in PvP is the +3% damage while slotted...which just isn't worth the bar space.

Tessitura

I think with the changes to Blastbones, and the already janky behavior of the skeleton, the magicka version needs a rework, cause firing that skill off from a distance really has become a lot less viable. What if you removed the damage increase based on time traveled, and instead gave it a dot that works like Poison Injection did. The dot's damage would increase once their health drops below a certain threshold. It would fix any of the pathing issues but it would make it more on par with defile, allowing you to gain full benefit regardless of distance. It would also give magicka a very much needed execution skill, and give it some finishing power like the defile morph does.

JXNwarrior

I like the class as a whole. Seems fun and the corpse mechanic is very cool.

My only real qualms are the duration of corpses and the current iteration of Ruinous Scythe.

Corpse durations are currently 3 seconds, which is essentially long enough to do a bar switch and use one ability before they disappear. And besides Blastbones, corpse creating abilities take 16-20 seconds to summon a new corpse. Making the duration of a summoned corpse around 6-8 seconds would add some flexibility to the timing of consuming a corpse, without allowing one to stack so many that it becomes trivial.

Ruinous Scythe was, imo, overtuned before the 5.0.2 change and was in need of adjustment. The problem is, the adjustment rendered this morph relatively useless. what it does now, is done better by both the DW and 2h aoe skills. The reason it was spammed was because of the heal absorbtion effect, which was removed. But the replacement effect was given based on the fact that it will be continued to be spammed. The stam morph is not, imo, meant to be a spammable, as we have a class spammable already, and the aoe component is weaker than the DW or 2h aoe. I think that if the off-balance effect from ruinous Scythe was removed in favor of a stun, or something else that the class is currently missing, it would see some consistent use in the upcoming launch. The fact that it has a stam morph mean it is meant to be used by stam dps (as tanks generally use magicka morphs and save stam for block/ransack/heroic). And imo it currently has no place in PvP or PvE, which is a shame considering how incredibly great the animation looks.

Ankael07

Some of my suggestions and reasons why;


Animate Blastbones (Reanimate's morph) should be an offensive morph



Reason:This morph will be underused because other morph's 5k stamina and magicka per resurrection is too good to pass up in both PVE and PVP. Also its every Necromancer's dream to unleash a horde of undead and its only fitting that an ultimate should do this.

Suggestion:

- Only 1 player is resurrected
- Range is reduced to 20 meters centered around the caster
- Cost is reverted back to 185 or less since Blastbones are easy to counter (see below)




Blastbone needs more freedom (without compromising from its weaknesses)

Reason: Its situational and easy to counter (as it should be) but preventing the Necro from casting again is too punishing.

The skill already doesnt work against targets below or above the wall (or most uneven terrain), it will die easily in crowded keep fights because of sieges firing everywhere ( only 7k hp), it can be snared, rooted or stunned (even during 2.5 seconds of assembly time) and most people have a tool for these

Dual Wield and Medium armor has Evasion to reduce damage by 25%

Bow has Magnum Shot

Magicka players have destruction staff (Frost Blockade or Destructive Reach)

Magicka Sorcerers can even root 6 Blastbones at the same time with Encase and Daedric Mines


Suggestion:
- Recasting should trigger the explosion immediately and resummon the Blastbone.
- We shouldnt need to target someone to summon a Blastbone
- Allow us to manually command Blastbones to attack different targets





The class needs a fast and reliable PVP stun against mobile targets


Reason: One of the reasons why Warden felt lacking at launch was that it didnt have a stun at will. Too many people feel forced to use a Master's Destruction staff for this reason. While Flesh Atro and Bone Totem are useful skills theyre also situational (useful in tight spaces against stationary targets)


Suggestion:

- Recasting Skeletal Arcanist/Archer stuns its target(s) if we can control who the target is
- Or have Bone Totem work the same way Nightblade's Fear does. Active after 2 seconds but stun the first X number of enemies who enter the area

drakeos99

Please FIX Magika Necromancers or least give us some decent buffs so it's kinda balanced for PvErs (Planning to Main Magika Necro) but since been hearing all bad stuff making me want to give up

DisgracefulMind

Magicka Necro is trash. This team should be ashamed that they're investing so much time into NB, the most developed class in ESO, and wasting weeks of PTS testing whilst neglecting Necromancer. It's going to go live in such an awful and incomplete state. Push the release of the class back if you have 0 intentions of investing any time into it right now.

TheBonesXXX

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

From my testing last night, the Necromancer abilities feel really good to use/weave. The animations look great. There is a ton of diversity in abilities and what they can do/provide, so much so that I'm constrained on bar space as to what to use for PvP and that's saying something considering I'm testing a Stamina Necromancer. I really like the the various Necromancer abilities that have stamina morphs or are useful for a stamina Necromancer. This is in stark contrast to the StamSorc that I main.

Qbiken wrote: »

General feedback:
Major vulnerability shouldn´t exist in game. It´s a way too strong buff for PvE. This is one of those things that will cause immense powercreep and make certain bossfights (looks at 3rd boss in vHoF) even easier to burst down without taking much consideration to mechanics.


Rethink major vulnerability

Rethinking it should be how to handle it for PvE as to not create the problems you're listing. However, for PvP Major Vulnerability is a direct counter to a Wardens AoE Major Protection.

Templars have Major protection, there are sets with major protection.

There's ways to stack major and minor protection.

I agree, Major Vuln is plenty balanced in PvP.

Supportic

Necromancer needs a reliable way to pull adds manually. There are several situations where I don't want to pull specific adds but I cannot avoid that when I wear the necro armor buff.

Also on bosses the time frame to target my dead minions is a bit too small. It's hard, at least out of tank perspective, to keep up either Mortal Coil or Deaden Pain in a complex fast paste boss fight. I would suggest to increase the "dead target" timer from 4-5 seconds to maybe 10 seconds otherwise it's hard to keep up a reliable stam regen source like mortal coil and focus on the fight simultaneously.

Ankael07

I just thought of a fun little interaction between Necro skills. Since Necro could use a reliable stun what if ...

Raising a blastbone or skeleton arcanist/archer while inside the Boneyard empowers your minion making its first attack stun the enemy.

This would fit perfectly with the overall Necromantic feeling of the class too

Gnozo

Bone armor creating a corpse when the effect ends is cool but it should also create a corpse when you cast the skill while it still being active. Maybe only If you have 5 seconds left cause every good player will maintain a 100% uptime on bone armor and how its now, He will never get a corpse when he recast it before it expires.

Vercingetorix

Ankael07 wrote: »

I just thought of a fun little interaction between Necro skills. Since Necro could use a reliable stun what if ...

Raising a blastbone or skeleton arcanist/archer while inside the Boneyard empowers your minion making its first attack stun the enemy.

This would fit perfectly with the overall Necromantic feeling of the class too

I always felt an idea like yours would have been a better and more reliable way to empower your minions rather than waste magicka casting Ghostly Embrace at the floor. If I want to combo and empower my minions at least tie a GOOD damage ability to it!

wheem_ESO

Ankael07 wrote: »

I just thought of a fun little interaction between Necro skills. Since Necro could use a reliable stun what if ...

Raising a blastbone or skeleton arcanist/archer while inside the Boneyard empowers your minion making its first attack stun the enemy.

This would fit perfectly with the overall Necromantic feeling of the class too

Might sound cool in a thematic sense, but wouldn't be very practical at all for PvP. It would require two global cooldowns, specific positioning for the caster, and either; 1) no other target being closer to the Necromancer (since your Skeletal Arcanist would target them instead), or 2) dealing with the travel time of the Blastbones, plus the possibility that it either wouldn't connect at all or would get blocked.

Gnozo wrote: »

Bone armor creating a corpse when the effect ends is cool but it should also create a corpse when you cast the skill while it still being active. Maybe only If you have 5 seconds left cause every good player will maintain a 100% uptime on bone armor and how its now, He will never get a corpse when he recast it before it expires.

Any ability which generates a corpse when it expires will also trigger one if it's re-cast with <= half the duration remaining (except for the Blastbones, which can't be resummoned while active).

I'm also pretty disappointed in the current state of the (Magicka) Necromancer, especially since I gave some feedback on Battlegrounds PvP very early on in this PTS cycle, and things have gotten worse since then, rather than better.

DeathStalker

I don't understand the logic and hope and request that you @ZOS_BrianWheeler can explain it to me. Warden now has a heal that costs Stamina in Soothing Spores and a heal in Nature's grasp that scales off highest offensive stats. So why is it so wrong or unbalanced to do the either of these with spirit mender for Necromancer?

wheem_ESO

DeathStalker wrote: »

I don't understand the logic and hope that you ZOS can explain it to me. Warden now has a heal that costs Stamina in Soothing Spores and a heal in Nature's grasp that scales off highest offensive stats. So why is it so wrong or unbalanced to do the either of these with spirit mender for Necromancer?

Because Magicka builds don't need choices stripped away from them in order to give more and more options and PvP-power to Stamina. Especially since Stamina-based heals wouldn't be completely shutdown by Negate or the 5.0.4 version of Incap.

DeathStalker

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I don't understand the logic and hope that you ZOS can explain it to me. Warden now has a heal that costs Stamina in Soothing Spores and a heal in Nature's grasp that scales off highest offensive stats. So why is it so wrong or unbalanced to do the either of these with spirit mender for Necromancer?

Because Magicka builds don't need choices stripped away from them in order to give more and more options and PvP-power to Stamina. Especially since Stamina-based heals wouldn't be completely shutdown by Negate or the 5.0.4 version of Incap.

How would having Spirit mender's heal Scaling off highest stats strip anything from Magicka? The skill would still even cost Magicka like Nature's grasp still does.

Vercingetorix

Probably too late, but I'd like to drop this off for the devs to maybe see. Corpse consumption is cool as an aesthetic, but tying it to the corpse's location on the ground is incredibly limiting and clunky. I'd address this issue with the following quick fixes:

If Siphon was based on simply consuming a nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allowing you to choose your target for the effect, the ability would actually be pretty good. Similar to Zaan or Malubeth, a beam would form between you and the target, dealing damage to them and those who cross the beam. While it holds, you'd gain magicka or the stam morph would cause the target to have an explosion (like Daedric Curse).

As for Tether and its morphs, you could consume a corpse as an additional cost and then you simply get the effects applied to you for the duration. Simple and still thematic in line with a Necromancer without the clunky corpse-aim-on-the-ground limitation that currently exists. The code for the "radial corpse consumption mechanic" already exists in the game code so implementing these two changes would be relatively easy on the devs.

As for Beckoning Armor, its cooldown is very limiting to the point of uselessness. Lowering the cooldown to 1.5 secs is reasonable since the player still has to manually initiate a taunt on the pulled target. I think the devs over-estimated the strength of the Armor's pull effect and put a detrimental cooldown on it as a result. In PvP, the pull effect's range could be limited to prevent issues with large scale fights - we wouldn't want 20+ folks being pulled like a bungee cord between the field of battle, right?

wheem_ESO

DeathStalker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I don't understand the logic and hope that you ZOS can explain it to me. Warden now has a heal that costs Stamina in Soothing Spores and a heal in Nature's grasp that scales off highest offensive stats. So why is it so wrong or unbalanced to do the either of these with spirit mender for Necromancer?

Because Magicka builds don't need choices stripped away from them in order to give more and more options and PvP-power to Stamina. Especially since Stamina-based heals wouldn't be completely shutdown by Negate or the 5.0.4 version of Incap.

How would having Spirit mender's heal Scaling off highest stats strip anything from Magicka? The skill would still even cost Magicka like Nature's grasp still does.

Scaling from offensive stats wasn't the only option you mentioned, but I'm still against giving most Stamina builds even better self-healing than they currently have, especially if the combination of RAT + Rally in heavy armor becomes common.

Stamina Necromancer already looks to be pretty strong for PvP, and I don't really think it needs better survivability, especially if Magicka Necromancer - which is quite bad for PvP offense - doesn't get some improvements along the way. Launching Stamina Necromancer with an offensive-stat scaled Spirit Mender + Vigor + the rest of the Stamina toolkit would probably just result in getting Magicka nerfed, as happened repeatedly to Magicka Warden (due to Stamina Warden being so strong).

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the change to the "Spiderman Vine" scaling from offensive stats.

DeathStalker

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I don't understand the logic and hope that you ZOS can explain it to me. Warden now has a heal that costs Stamina in Soothing Spores and a heal in Nature's grasp that scales off highest offensive stats. So why is it so wrong or unbalanced to do the either of these with spirit mender for Necromancer?

Because Magicka builds don't need choices stripped away from them in order to give more and more options and PvP-power to Stamina. Especially since Stamina-based heals wouldn't be completely shutdown by Negate or the 5.0.4 version of Incap.

How would having Spirit mender's heal Scaling off highest stats strip anything from Magicka? The skill would still even cost Magicka like Nature's grasp still does.

Scaling from offensive stats wasn't the only option you mentioned, but I'm still against giving most Stamina builds even better self-healing than they currently have, especially if the combination of RAT + Rally in heavy armor becomes common.

Stamina Necromancer already looks to be pretty strong for PvP, and I don't really think it needs better survivability, especially if Magicka Necromancer - which is quite bad for PvP offense - doesn't get some improvements along the way. Launching Stamina Necromancer with an offensive-stat scaled Spirit Mender + Vigor + the rest of the Stamina toolkit would probably just result in getting Magicka nerfed, as happened repeatedly to Magicka Warden (due to Stamina Warden being so strong).

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the change to the "Spiderman Vine" scaling from offensive stats.

I play mainly pve and I'm speaking to that regard. I'm simply asking for the exact same thing stam warden has. Besides to slot 2 heals would mean the loss of a dps skill and therefore dps.

DeathStalker

DeathStalker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I don't understand the logic and hope that you ZOS can explain it to me. Warden now has a heal that costs Stamina in Soothing Spores and a heal in Nature's grasp that scales off highest offensive stats. So why is it so wrong or unbalanced to do the either of these with spirit mender for Necromancer?

Because Magicka builds don't need choices stripped away from them in order to give more and more options and PvP-power to Stamina. Especially since Stamina-based heals wouldn't be completely shutdown by Negate or the 5.0.4 version of Incap.

How would having Spirit mender's heal Scaling off highest stats strip anything from Magicka? The skill would still even cost Magicka like Nature's grasp still does.

Scaling from offensive stats wasn't the only option you mentioned, but I'm still against giving most Stamina builds even better self-healing than they currently have, especially if the combination of RAT + Rally in heavy armor becomes common.

Stamina Necromancer already looks to be pretty strong for PvP, and I don't really think it needs better survivability, especially if Magicka Necromancer - which is quite bad for PvP offense - doesn't get some improvements along the way. Launching Stamina Necromancer with an offensive-stat scaled Spirit Mender + Vigor + the rest of the Stamina toolkit would probably just result in getting Magicka nerfed, as happened repeatedly to Magicka Warden (due to Stamina Warden being so strong).

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the change to the "Spiderman Vine" scaling from offensive stats.

I play mainly pve and I'm speaking to that regard. I'm simply asking for the exact same thing stam warden has. Besides to slot 2 heals would mean the loss of a dps skill and therefore dps.

Let me add this. I am asking for stam warden in regards to healing and the changes on this pts cycle become the rule for all stamina classes and Stamina warden not be the exception when it comes to the ability to heal. Also, If it was that much of a problem then why hasn't there been anything said about it on the forums? Especially as strong as Stamina warden dps is right now.

Tessitura

Magicka necro is a mess, after many weeks of talking and testing, I have come to the conclusion you guys didn't even build with magicka in mind for anything but healing. The damage seems to be distance and aoe based, yet all it's defenses require it to stand still, and they are not even good enough to do that, it's one of the most counter intuitive things I have ever seen. Its has nothing to kite with and keep that distance except a horribly slow ground based cc that is easily avoided. Not to mention its horrible slow moving projectiles that are easy to dodge or even destroy, ground based aoe that requires a corpse doesn't do anywhere near enough damage for how long it takes to either get up or keep it on the target, ( Also, unlike what you said, no siphen is not a good area denial ability, it doesn't cc, or slow, or do any real damage. the magicka morph barely gives a return on resources. You were just plain wrong about it. ) And a passive that increases dot damage of which magicka has little to choose from thats any good or times well with other dots.

In short, you made a huge mess of this and I think you failed this class.

wheem_ESO

DeathStalker wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

I don't understand the logic and hope that you ZOS can explain it to me. Warden now has a heal that costs Stamina in Soothing Spores and a heal in Nature's grasp that scales off highest offensive stats. So why is it so wrong or unbalanced to do the either of these with spirit mender for Necromancer?

Because Magicka builds don't need choices stripped away from them in order to give more and more options and PvP-power to Stamina. Especially since Stamina-based heals wouldn't be completely shutdown by Negate or the 5.0.4 version of Incap.

How would having Spirit mender's heal Scaling off highest stats strip anything from Magicka? The skill would still even cost Magicka like Nature's grasp still does.

Scaling from offensive stats wasn't the only option you mentioned, but I'm still against giving most Stamina builds even better self-healing than they currently have, especially if the combination of RAT + Rally in heavy armor becomes common.

Stamina Necromancer already looks to be pretty strong for PvP, and I don't really think it needs better survivability, especially if Magicka Necromancer - which is quite bad for PvP offense - doesn't get some improvements along the way. Launching Stamina Necromancer with an offensive-stat scaled Spirit Mender + Vigor + the rest of the Stamina toolkit would probably just result in getting Magicka nerfed, as happened repeatedly to Magicka Warden (due to Stamina Warden being so strong).

And for the record, I'm not in favor of the change to the "Spiderman Vine" scaling from offensive stats.

I play mainly pve and I'm speaking to that regard. I'm simply asking for the exact same thing stam warden has. Besides to slot 2 heals would mean the loss of a dps skill and therefore dps.

Let me add this. I am asking for stam warden in regards to healing and the changes on this pts cycle become the rule for all stamina classes and Stamina warden not be the exception when it comes to the ability to heal. Also, If it was that much of a problem then why hasn't there been anything said about it on the forums? Especially as strong as Stamina warden dps is right now.

Stamina Warden shouldn't have gotten a healing boost, and other Stamina builds certainly don't need one. We don't need dedicated Stamina healers running around in PvP being able to ignore Negates and keep their premade group alive while dominating the other premade group(s) that are utterly crippled by the very same silencing mechanic that they can safely ignore.

And what would the PvE benefit be, in tradeoff for ruining all semblance of Stamina/Magicka balance in PvP? You get a little more convenience or safety net when running VMA or something? There are already plenty of options for Stamina self-healing in PvE, and I don't just mean for Stamina Wardens.

Revokus

Tessitura wrote: »

Magicka necro is a mess, after many weeks of talking and testing, I have come to the conclusion you guys didn't even build with magicka in mind for anything but healing. The damage seems to be distance and aoe based, yet all it's defenses require it to stand still, and they are not even good enough to do that, it's one of the most counter intuitive things I have ever seen. Its has nothing to kite with and keep that distance except a horribly slow ground based cc that is easily avoided. Not to mention its horrible slow moving projectiles that are easy to dodge or even destroy, ground based aoe that requires a corpse doesn't do anywhere near enough damage for how long it takes to either get up or keep it on the target, ( Also, unlike what you said, no siphen is not a good area denial ability, it doesn't cc, or slow, or do any real damage. the magicka morph barely gives a return on resources. You were just plain wrong about it. ) And a passive that increases dot damage of which magicka has little to choose from thats any good or times well with other dots.

In short, you made a huge mess of this and I think you failed this class.

What a shame necromancers are supposed to be casters first..Stamnecro clearly has all the juicy stuff.

Ozby

wheem_ESO wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

2.) Increase Spirit Guardian to at least 30 sec: When doing solo or small-group content, I've found that this skill is the best option I have for a continuous self-heal. Unfortunately, it only lasts 16 sec. However, Power Surge--a similar self-heal skill used by mag Sorcs--lasts 33 sec. Suffice it to say, mag Necros have to recast their continuous self-heal--and bar swap--more often than mag Sorcs. So I hope ZOS considers adjusting this skill to 1) reduce the number of bar swaps needed and 2) make the duration of Spirit Guardian consistent with other similar skills in the game (e.g., Power Surge).

The problem with this idea is that one can generate corpses with the Necromancer "pets" by either waiting for them to expire, or resummoning them once they reach the halfway point of their duration. So the longer the duration, the fewer corpses one can generate, which I don't think ZOS wants to happen.

Just re cast it early , still creates a corpse.