Should sorcs hiding behind their pets be considered a targeting exploit?

Bam_Bam

Bouldercleave wrote: »

nryerson1025 wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

nryerson1025 wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Strategic positioning. No different than hiding behind a tree or rock.

to be fair, that's incorrect. you can't target a tree or rock

To be fair, you get my point.

i don't actually. the targetting issue is about incorrectly targetting the pets. so at its very foundation, your analogy is not right. you are not incorrectly targetting a rock when someone los'es behind one

Jesus Christ. <snip>

Yes, my child?

Universe

This is not an exploit.
Though Pet Sorcerers are OP in PVP 1v1 and small scale, I hope ZOS will nerf them in Elsweyr update.
I can't wait to read the patch notes on PTS forum section today, the classes are going to have some major changes!

JobooAGS

No

SpacemanSpiff1

It's tactics, not an exploit. That word is losing it's meaning with how much stuff it gets applied to.

StormeReigns

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

It's tactics, not an exploit. That word is losing it's meaning with how much stuff it gets applied to.

Moar pets I say! Need fodder for my Inevitable Detonation spam! 😈

Rarely used it before, now that ball and zoo metas are a thing, i can sit back 28+ meters in relative safety watching blue nukes go off and them trying to scatter, but in the end, they turn to crackling piles of ash.

Wildberryjack

We should be able to target through all pets for everything. I'm so tired of them being in the way of crafting tables, loot boxes, nodes, and when at WBs half the time I can't even target the adds or boss because of pets being in the way.

SpacemanSpiff1

SkerKro wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

It's tactics, not an exploit. That word is losing it's meaning with how much stuff it gets applied to.

Moar pets I say! Need fodder for my Inevitable Detonation spam! 😈

Rarely used it before, now that ball and zoo metas are a thing, i can sit back 28+ meters in relative safety watching blue nukes go off and them trying to scatter, but in the end, they turn to crackling piles of ash.

that's awesome

OwnerOfSuccuby

Need to give sorc abbility to breeding with its pets - to make even more pets. Untill all tamriel becomes full of pets like 20 pets on 1 meter.

redlink1979

Kill the pets, kill the sorc as he/she tries to bring pets back.

OwnerOfSuccuby

redlink1979 wrote: »

Kill the pets, kill the sorc as he/she tries to bring pets back.

Do you try to kill it ? It metigates 90% damage !

Better really give more nice looking pet to sorc and abbility to breeding and we will have a deal - i will play breeding farm on it will not be interested in my main any more. Just will come to pvp with ten hundreds pets with me after a year

karekiz

I don't get how it goes from Morrowind release nobody complaining to now. Nothing really changed. Is it just FOTM syndrome?

OtarTheMad

Undefwun wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Just when pets became useful, now here come the nerf threads lol. Why would anyone call it an exploit? Why not create a thread that says: "Need help countering pet sorcs"

Ok... 5Medium/2Heavy 2H/DW stam sorc approaching pet sorc.. 2 pets out.

Can't crit rush cos he's hiding behind 1 pet the second he saw you approaching.

You are already being zapped by the flappy pet and sorc is casting daedric prey then heavy attacks, sicking 2 pets on you.

You might be in melee range now, cos either you are quick or just crit rushed pet just to get close.

You land a shot or so ,pet sorc realises you may be an issue, levels to stage 3 and drops atro and starts breaking LoS. Now have you 3 pets zapping away, boosted by DP, but no target.
Your attacks are hitting pets (not by choice) and they are protected by ward and even without it they are not a 1 or 2 shot.

Time to start healing cos your health is dropping, and the sorc does nothing but hold down left mouse button for that lightning heavy, and is moving around behind and basically inside the atro so you can't target them.

By now the pet sorc reaches his final form, the full blown cancer ZOO sorc as Maw of the Infernal procs and now you have 4 pets on you, you still haven't done any meaningful damage, wasting GCDs on heals and and you either GTFO if you haven't left it too late or go for broke and drop DBoS and hope you got them while ward is down and you can land something while they go down for a second.

All they have done is cast 1 skill, plus maybe ward and held down LMB. If you are really unlucky, they'll hit you with lightning reach in between and you get stunned. Then you might as well get ready to respawn

It's basically a 1v5 and it's constant incoming damage and they have 10k+ crit burst heals of the flappy. How is this fine? My vigor and FM/Rally can't heal like that. That is a zero skill, cowardly (since I can't use the p word on the forums) play style

No one is asking to 1 shot pet sorcs (well I am not), but I'd like to have a fighting chance, even if the odds are not stacked in my favor. I am quite happy to engage a DK on my magsorc or magblade, even with the wings in their current state. I still have a shot and it's an actual fight against another player, they are actually doing stuff.

I been in a BG or 2 where there was 2 zoo sorcs just holding hands the whole time. That's EIGHT pets... doing free damage and providing cover.

Maybe I will take the advice and try to find someone and try and practice in private... but at the moment the W/L ratio is definitely not in my stam sorcs favor... especially when add in my average 300-350 ping in BGs

Put pressure on... like heavy, don't be afraid to spam abilities, be a ***. Crit rush immediately? Nope, dodge roll past the pets and then try. Stam sorc? Use clannfear, also use Defensive Rune as well. The mag sorc will not have the stamina to break this a ton of times, most likely you will catch him at least once where he is stuck in it. What is your back bar weapon? DW? Use Steel Tornado (good AOE) or Rending (Bleed and slows). Use dizzying swing as well. Also push him when he drops atro on you... he is not melee so odds are you can push him out of his atro's aggro range. Need an ult? Charge it on his pets as well. If you are aggressive enough you can dictate the fight even if the sorc has a lot of burst, also use terrain to your advantage, you can dodge roll... he can't. Also pets are morons, the pet sorc most likely does not use the target system and just relies on the pets staying on you but that is unreliable which is why clannfear on your side might actually keep them busy.

The issue is pet sorcs are new sort of, not many ran with them. You have to approach the fight like the player wronged your life, be aggressive but not overly confidant. Don't give him breathing room.

Aurielle

karekiz wrote: »

I don't get how it goes from Morrowind release nobody complaining to now. Nothing really changed. Is it just FOTM syndrome?

People didn’t stack pets in BGs (at least, not that I noticed) up until a few months ago. If you do a forum search, you will see that numerous threads have been created about targeting issues related to premade pet groups over the past year.

Again, the problem is not one sorcerer with a matriarch; it’s four sorcerers in a premade group each with 2-4 pets active at any given time, resulting in 8-16 active pets for the group as a whole.

Emma_Overload

OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

Need to give sorc abbility to breeding with its pets - to make even more pets. Untill all tamriel becomes full of pets like 20 pets on 1 meter.

This is the best idea I've heard in weeks. Can't wait to shack up with my Twilight... might have to get on a stool, though, because she never seems to land!

Ozby

You cant be serious OP?

Itzmichi

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Pets do need a nerf tho. In all realism. It is not balanced AT ALL. None of them.

No you need a nerf.

CatchMeTrolling

Fixed an issue where pets were only having their Healing Received from Battle Spirit reduced by 50, rather than 50%.
Fixed an issue where pet shield sizes were not being properly reduced by Battle Spirit.

Off topic put I thought this was interesting

Cathexis

They should replace the clanfear with a daedroth, or something else large and cool.

Juhasow wrote: »

Not an exploit just bad game design.

This mentality is the problem this game is facing. People want to pigeon hole gameplay styles, by steamrolling any elements of the game that challenge them outside their box.

Ideas like pet los DIVERSIFY combat, and that is the essence of creating unique, dynamic, and engaging gameplay experiences.

If you keep nerfing everything, the whole game will just be light attacks.

Cathexis

VaranisArano wrote: »

Should LOS behind a rock or tree or another player be considered a targeting exploit?

No, its not.

Its cheese, not cheating.

I find it hilarious that PVP pet sorcs went from being useless to the target of complaints once someone figured out how to make pets actually useful.

Pets have been this way forever.
Literally 0 things have changed.
People just can't handle sorcs who fight back so they fuel their forum steam roller full up with tears and start the engine.

Jeremy

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Mrsinister2 wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Sounds like good footwork

This is probably true some sorcs have there zoo and it don't seem to help at all while other sorcs are almost untouchable.

I got killed earlier by a sorc with 4 pets and all he used for an attack was curse

4 pets? How do you get that many? One must have been an equipment proc.

Many of them do use equipment procs for more pets. Werewolves like to run around with a kennel as well.

CatchMeTrolling

Cathexis wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Should LOS behind a rock or tree or another player be considered a targeting exploit?

No, its not.

Its cheese, not cheating.

I find it hilarious that PVP pet sorcs went from being useless to the target of complaints once someone figured out how to make pets actually useful.

Pets have been this way forever.
Literally 0 things have changed.
People just can't handle sorcs who fight back so they fuel their forum steam roller full up with tears and start the engine.

People have complained about pets, engine guardian and ww wolves. It has nothing to do with sorcs fighting back but about the targeting system. Sorcs didn’t just run around with pets at the same rate as they do now, so obviously there’s going to be more complaints about pets and targeting. So yes things did change, more pets are being used. And theyre absolute cancer in environments like bgs, if anyone can’t see that then they’re willfully ignorant and don’t care to see the issue.

Cathexis

Gilvoth wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

the only problem i see with it, is that they can kill you, while you heavily struggle to hit them or do damage to them.
it is still possible to damage them, but it is very restricted.

good players are exploiters

that term "Good Players"
was created by people teaching exploits and training others that those exploits are not exploits, but instead call the exploits "skills" or "being skilled" when infact those actions are exploits and require no skill at all.

the only "skill" that is taking place during those exploits is the skill in committing a constant flow of various forms of the exploits and making an art form of the exploits much the same way we witness Lawyers protect the guilty.

This is just so much backwards thinking I don't even know where to begin. The entire premise of engaging with a videogame is an act of exploitation. When you pick up an item, that's exploiting the game's item-picking-up-and-using mechanic.

It is in no way the same as lawyers protecting the guilty -- this is a videogame, not someone breaking the law. No one is harmed (generally) in a virtual environment through interacting with a videogame. The law cannot be express patched. Anything released in an active title of a game is, in the context of the current release version, fair play, just as anything within the boundaries of the law is legal.

Now, there may be a consequence for exploits laid out by the governing body of the game, and then it is cheating. Exploits may also severely need to be addressed to ensure that they are closed with patches. Ideally, you ensure that other players are then compensated by adjusting the value of an exploit in the patches that follow (in some capacity). Ideally.

That is no guarantee. But how a company deals with an exploit is a reflection of how it appreciates it's player base. The responsibility is on the development to ensure that an exploit is fixed. But otherwise the state of the game is as it is.

It is on you how you react to that, to continue to play or to stop, to advocate for change or to not.

And with that in mind returning to the point about exploits being skill - yes, exploiting is a form of skill in gameplay, it is developing an understanding of the mechanics of the game at a deeper level and employing them to be a better player.

Just as you learn to loot a sword and equip it, you also learn that zerging players down is super-effective. Is it unfair and extremely imbalanced to a point of stupidity and exploiting a player to render them mathematically defenseless? Absolutely. Is it considered a staple dynamic of the game? You bet.

The same thing applies to line of sight.

Just because you think it is unfair doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong.

As many great eso players have said (and some not so great ones as well) "Disce Play" which is Latin for "Learn to Play"

Cathexis

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Should LOS behind a rock or tree or another player be considered a targeting exploit?

No, its not.

Its cheese, not cheating.

I find it hilarious that PVP pet sorcs went from being useless to the target of complaints once someone figured out how to make pets actually useful.

Pets have been this way forever.
Literally 0 things have changed.
People just can't handle sorcs who fight back so they fuel their forum steam roller full up with tears and start the engine.

People have complained about pets, engine guardian and ww wolves. It has nothing to do with sorcs fighting back but about the targeting system. Sorcs didn’t just run around with pets at the same rate as they do now, so obviously there’s going to be more complaints about pets and targeting. So yes things did change, more pets are being used. And theyre absolute cancer in environments like bgs, if anyone can’t see that then they’re willfully ignorant and don’t care to see the issue.

I have yet to fight a sorc using pets that has caused me any serious issue to such an extent that I feel cheated. If a pet sorc beats me, it's because they played well. Instead of being mad because you have a hard time with pet sorcs, you should adjust your play style to account for counters to pet play.

CatchMeTrolling

Cathexis wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Should LOS behind a rock or tree or another player be considered a targeting exploit?

No, its not.

Its cheese, not cheating.

I find it hilarious that PVP pet sorcs went from being useless to the target of complaints once someone figured out how to make pets actually useful.

Pets have been this way forever.
Literally 0 things have changed.
People just can't handle sorcs who fight back so they fuel their forum steam roller full up with tears and start the engine.

People have complained about pets, engine guardian and ww wolves. It has nothing to do with sorcs fighting back but about the targeting system. Sorcs didn’t just run around with pets at the same rate as they do now, so obviously there’s going to be more complaints about pets and targeting. So yes things did change, more pets are being used. And theyre absolute cancer in environments like bgs, if anyone can’t see that then they’re willfully ignorant and don’t care to see the issue.

I have yet to fight a sorc using pets that has caused me any serious issue to such an extent that I feel cheated. If a pet sorc beats me, it's because they played well. Instead of being mad because you have a hard time with pet sorcs, you should adjust your play style to account for counters to pet play.

When did I say beat or they’re hard ? Yeah like talking to a wall.

MartiniDaniels

Rejoice! hard to kill pets were a bug, and not a feature and will be heavily nerfed ^^

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468599/pts-patch-notes-v5-0-0#latest
Fixed an issue where pets were only having their Healing Received from Battle Spirit reduced by 50, rather than 50%.
Fixed an issue where pet shield sizes were not being properly reduced by Battle Spirit.

Omg, despite torned away wings and strange changes to magblade, overall new PVP direction looks awesome, they actually are trying to nerf cancerous builds or at least make them more skill and tactics dependent.

Undefwun

karekiz wrote: »

I don't get how it goes from Morrowind release nobody complaining to now. Nothing really changed. Is it just FOTM syndrome?

Pets got several buffs in recent patches, also after shield changes people looked for new ways to play before the community figured out how to successfully shield stack again.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Put pressure on... like heavy, don't be afraid to spam abilities, be a ***. Crit rush immediately? Nope, dodge roll past the pets and then try. Stam sorc? Use clannfear, also use Defensive Rune as well. The mag sorc will not have the stamina to break this a ton of times, most likely you will catch him at least once where he is stuck in it. What is your back bar weapon? DW? Use Steel Tornado (good AOE) or Rending (Bleed and slows). Use dizzying swing as well. Also push him when he drops atro on you... he is not melee so odds are you can push him out of his atro's aggro range. Need an ult? Charge it on his pets as well. If you are aggressive enough you can dictate the fight even if the sorc has a lot of burst, also use terrain to your advantage, you can dodge roll... he can't. Also pets are morons, the pet sorc most likely does not use the target system and just relies on the pets staying on you but that is unreliable which is why clannfear on your side might actually keep them busy.

The issue is pet sorcs are new sort of, not many ran with them. You have to approach the fight like the player wronged your life, be aggressive but not overly confidant. Don't give him breathing room.

My friend, where do I start with this reply. When I talk about fights i am talking about competent players, not someone who doesn't know how to play the game. Very few will let them selves be pushed out of atro range, since they are circling behind and through the atro basically.

I also understand pressure, my stam sorc is a pressure build, but 4 pets + sorc doing damage + the matriarch heal against a medium build, with limited healing (in comparison), there isn't much pressure.

Personally I have no idea where to find the room for clanfear and defensive rune on my bars.

Dizzy swing in general against good players is very average as they know how to easy counter it with movement and that is on an optimal connection. Add to that my ping (300-350 in a BG, can go higher in cyro) and it's highly unreliable and pretty much useless against anyone but newish players. I still keep trying to use it on my stamDK and the hit rate is low.

Besides that you are completely ignoring the crux of mine and the general argument being made against pets, you CAN NOT target the sorc.

Also staff heavy attack is the attack command. Might have been a recent change but I seen it tested in a video. When sorc changes targets with their heavy attack, pets follow to that target. So them sitting in their zoo and holding down left mouse button is what is keeping the pets on 'me'/target.

And also pets are broken on live, from the new patch notes:
Fixed an issue where pets were only having their Healing Received from Battle Spirit reduced by 50, rather than 50%.
Fixed an issue where pet shield sizes were not being properly reduced by Battle Spirit.
They are way to tanky right now....

Wandering_Immigrant

Undefwun wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Just when pets became useful, now here come the nerf threads lol. Why would anyone call it an exploit? Why not create a thread that says: "Need help countering pet sorcs"

Ok... 5Medium/2Heavy 2H/DW stam sorc approaching pet sorc.. 2 pets out.

Can't crit rush cos he's hiding behind 1 pet the second he saw you approaching.

You are already being zapped by the flappy pet and sorc is casting daedric prey then heavy attacks, sicking 2 pets on you.

You might be in melee range now, cos either you are quick or just crit rushed pet just to get close.

You land a shot or so ,pet sorc realises you may be an issue, levels to stage 3 and drops atro and starts breaking LoS. Now have you 3 pets zapping away, boosted by DP, but no target.
Your attacks are hitting pets (not by choice) and they are protected by ward and even without it they are not a 1 or 2 shot.

Time to start healing cos your health is dropping, and the sorc does nothing but hold down left mouse button for that lightning heavy, and is moving around behind and basically inside the atro so you can't target them.

By now the pet sorc reaches his final form, the full blown cancer ZOO sorc as Maw of the Infernal procs and now you have 4 pets on you, you still haven't done any meaningful damage, wasting GCDs on heals and and you either GTFO if you haven't left it too late or go for broke and drop DBoS and hope you got them while ward is down and you can land something while they go down for a second.

All they have done is cast 1 skill, plus maybe ward and held down LMB. If you are really unlucky, they'll hit you with lightning reach in between and you get stunned. Then you might as well get ready to respawn

It's basically a 1v5 and it's constant incoming damage and they have 10k+ crit burst heals of the flappy. How is this fine? My vigor and FM/Rally can't heal like that. That is a zero skill, cowardly (since I can't use the p word on the forums) play style

No one is asking to 1 shot pet sorcs (well I am not), but I'd like to have a fighting chance, even if the odds are not stacked in my favor. I am quite happy to engage a DK on my magsorc or magblade, even with the wings in their current state. I still have a shot and it's an actual fight against another player, they are actually doing stuff.

I been in a BG or 2 where there was 2 zoo sorcs just holding hands the whole time. That's EIGHT pets... doing free damage and providing cover.

Maybe I will take the advice and try to find someone and try and practice in private... but at the moment the W/L ratio is definitely not in my stam sorcs favor... especially when add in my average 300-350 ping in BGs

Well if you're fighting a 2h/DW stamsorc and he starts doing lighting staff heavy attacks that might be an exploit. I'd report.

DeadlyRecluse

It certainly could be considered a targeting problem, but hardly a targeting exploit.

Aurielle

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

It certainly could be considered a targeting problem, but hardly a targeting exploit.

It depends on the intention, IMO. If a group of pet sorcs band together with the explicit purpose of being untargetable, then I would argue that “exploit” would apply in their case. Any time you abuse a mechanic or bug that is overperforming, or use it in a way that is unintended, you’re exploiting. I really doubt ZOS intended for BGs to be 4v4v20 (which is, essentially, what stacked pet groups are). With the buffs pets received, they can hit pretty hard in no CP and, based on the patch notes, were bugged re: their tankiness on top of it all.

Edited for autocorrect mishaps...

Sylvermynx

Okay, genuine confuzzled question here: why do you people not post stuff like this on the pvp forum? That's why you HAVE a pvp forum, right?

Why are all y'all flooding general discussion with a bajillion pvp posts?