ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

Chaos2088

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

D0PAMINE

Universe wrote: »

This tool will only increase the already high elitism which exists in ESO.
I can imagine many group leaders request the use of this tool as mandatory.

Do you mean players with great but not top tier dps will be affected to a greater degree?

freespirit

Invasive

Yet more reasons to not do group content...….

For a MMO they seem to want to make "group" play a negative experience!

MissBizz

Useful

VaranisArano wrote: »

If "Anonymous" becomes the default option, without needing to be selected or creating an ESO Logs account to claim your characters, I will unhesitatingly say that its "Useful."

Otherwise, it is certainly "Useful" and quite possibly ALSO "Invasive" and almost certain to cause a number of "Wait, why is my character name being posted with these logs? How do I stop it?" situations.

I am very much so pro logging tool, but I do agree that anonymous needs to be the default option.

Tyrobag

Invasive

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

Flares

Useful

The tool is the best thing to ever happen to ESO.As a big fan of FFlogs and Warcraftlogs(same developer) I am happy it is now a part of the game. It would certainly revitalize the endgame community to go for more score pushes and analyze how to perform better.

Anyone can use it to improve their gameplay. It shows how many deaths each dungeon, how many revives you did, and interrupts. Complaining about it is like complaining about how other people in your workplace receive a public contribution metric to see how they can get paid more and then being worried they'll discovered you are skating by by contributing nothing to company, but browsing Reddit. How you should use the tool is the better yourself as a player and not be a bother to the group

Tyrobag

Invasive

MissBizz wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If "Anonymous" becomes the default option, without needing to be selected or creating an ESO Logs account to claim your characters, I will unhesitatingly say that its "Useful."

Otherwise, it is certainly "Useful" and quite possibly ALSO "Invasive" and almost certain to cause a number of "Wait, why is my character name being posted with these logs? How do I stop it?" situations.

I am very much so pro logging tool, but I do agree that anonymous needs to be the default option.

And they need to redefine what "anonymous" means, the current plain is not anonymity.

MissBizz

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

@Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

Tyrobag

Invasive

MissBizz wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

@Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

I'm fully aware that it isn't real time, that in no way changes that fact that as it is currently designed everybody can be forced to share their data without consent.

I'm sure you have a different view of things than I do, being a streamer you're clearly much more comfortable putting your information in the public eye. But I'd hope you can understand that not everybody wants to do do this, and not everybody is comfortable with it.

All I'm asking for is a real 100% opt-out. You can use the function as you like, and I can use it as I like. So long as nobody's privacy is being invaded without consent I wouldn't have an issue with this.

redspecter23

Useful

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

Tyrobag

Invasive

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

Skallolf

Invasive

MissBizz wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

@Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

This is true, but the purpose of the system is to refine what skills are best where. This could lead to you joining a random dungeon and being kicked because you don't have a certain skill that a player has previously determined is the meta for that dungeon. It doesn't matter if the player is still unlocking skills, or whether the player is competent at all. Potentially they might queue and be kicked multiple times for not having something that until now has not been "needed".

I expect to see a lot more "Hey healer do you have barrier" or "hey stam dps do you have caltrops" type questions at the start of a run from this being implemented.

redspecter23

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

redspecter23

Useful

Skallolf wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

@Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

This is true, but the purpose of the system is to refine what skills are best where. This could lead to you joining a random dungeon and being kicked because you don't have a certain skill that a player has previously determined is the meta for that dungeon. It doesn't matter if the player is still unlocking skills, or whether the player is competent at all. Potentially they might queue and be kicked multiple times for not having something that until now has not been "needed".

I expect to see a lot more "Hey healer do you have barrier" or "hey stam dps do you have caltrops" type questions at the start of a run from this being implemented.

Those questions can still be asked right now without this tool. If someone asks for barrier and will kick you for not having it, you can't really fake your way through it. You can't show a fake barrier to them even right now.

Tyrobag

Invasive

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not.

I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form gives someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

redspecter23

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not. I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form give someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

We will disagree then. If I'm in a group with people, my opinion is that I have the right to know if they are pulling their weight. You are of course welcome to disagree. I don't expect everyone to share the same thoughts. If you don't like people knowing how you're performing in a dungeon, this new tool will make it very uncomfortable to pug. That much I can agree with. I find it very uncomfortable to pug right now... due to players that can't pull their weight in random groups. So one persons problem is another persons solution.

Skallolf

Invasive

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skallolf wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

@Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

This is true, but the purpose of the system is to refine what skills are best where. This could lead to you joining a random dungeon and being kicked because you don't have a certain skill that a player has previously determined is the meta for that dungeon. It doesn't matter if the player is still unlocking skills, or whether the player is competent at all. Potentially they might queue and be kicked multiple times for not having something that until now has not been "needed".

I expect to see a lot more "Hey healer do you have barrier" or "hey stam dps do you have caltrops" type questions at the start of a run from this being implemented.

Those questions can still be asked right now without this tool. If someone asks for barrier and will kick you for not having it, you can't really fake your way through it. You can't show a fake barrier to them even right now.

Yes they can, and elitist jerks do. All i am saying is that this will lead to more of that. I never said otherwise.

redspecter23

Useful

Skallolf wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skallolf wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

@Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

This is true, but the purpose of the system is to refine what skills are best where. This could lead to you joining a random dungeon and being kicked because you don't have a certain skill that a player has previously determined is the meta for that dungeon. It doesn't matter if the player is still unlocking skills, or whether the player is competent at all. Potentially they might queue and be kicked multiple times for not having something that until now has not been "needed".

I expect to see a lot more "Hey healer do you have barrier" or "hey stam dps do you have caltrops" type questions at the start of a run from this being implemented.

Those questions can still be asked right now without this tool. If someone asks for barrier and will kick you for not having it, you can't really fake your way through it. You can't show a fake barrier to them even right now.

Yes they can, and elitist jerks do. All i am saying is that this will lead to more of that. I never said otherwise.

Jerks are jerks, tool or not. I don't see this turning otherwise good people into elitist jerks. I feel that the kind of people using this tool as an excuse to be a jerk would do it anyway. They might say someone is getting kicked because the tool gave results they didn't like, but without it, maybe they would have kicked them even earlier (just to be safe). It could work the other way and players you might have removed immediately get a chance to prove themselves.

Tyrobag

Invasive

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not. I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form give someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

We will disagree then. If I'm in a group with people, my opinion is that I have the right to know if they are pulling their weight. You are of course welcome to disagree. I don't expect everyone to share the same thoughts. If you don't like people knowing how you're performing in a dungeon, this new tool will make it very uncomfortable to pug. That much I can agree with. I find it very uncomfortable to pug right now... due to players that can't pull their weight in random groups. So one persons problem is another persons solution.

Except that your "solution" comes at the cost of other's right to privacy. The option to have the function off or on gives the option to those who want it, and stops the privacy of those who don't from being invaded.

I'm not asking for the function to be removed, I'm asking for a middle ground. You are asking for an extreme.

mairwen85

Invasive

In a data set where everything is public save for one anonymous element, anonymous =/= anonymous.

We've all finished comprehensive school... Find the value of X etc... C'mon... Even Facebook comes under fire for this, with millions of anonymous elements.

Sylvermynx

Invasive

mairwen85 wrote: »

In a data set where everything is public save for one anonymous element, anonymous =/= anonymous.

Exactly.

redspecter23

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not. I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form give someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

We will disagree then. If I'm in a group with people, my opinion is that I have the right to know if they are pulling their weight. You are of course welcome to disagree. I don't expect everyone to share the same thoughts. If you don't like people knowing how you're performing in a dungeon, this new tool will make it very uncomfortable to pug. That much I can agree with. I find it very uncomfortable to pug right now... due to players that can't pull their weight in random groups. So one persons problem is another persons solution.

Except that your "solution" comes at the cost of other's right to privacy. The option to have the function off or on gives the option to those who want it, and stops the privacy of those who don't from being invaded.

I'm not asking for the function to be removed, I'm asking for a middle ground. You are asking for an extreme.

They could have loads of other ways to implement it that would have been better. It may have been a good idea to just turn it off completely during any group finder run. If the idea is to use it to refine runs on a high level, what is the point of even allowing it in group finder runs? They aren't even remotely streamlined. That would probably be a good solution.

jainiadral

Invasive

Sylvermynx wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

This actually reminds me of the forced "everyone on your friends list knows when you're online" that WoW and then later RIFT did years back. That was one of the major reasons I left both games. It's no one's business when I'm online.... not even (or maybe especially) my family. I play games to get AWAY from them!

GW2 has something similar, except people can choose to "follow" you without your consent. Go offline and you can't use map chat, which is super-annoying when you're trying to do one of the map event dailies.

Yeah, I noticed that when I first took a look at GW2. Was my LAST look at GW2....

You're smarter than I am I never noticed it until I randomly poked around the interface one day about six months in my second go-round with the game. Tried to figure out how to turn it off, couldn't, shrugged and gave up. Then again, I'm pretty bland, inoffensive, and silent in-game *shrug*

This logging crap is a whole different kettle of fish. I've seen what DPS meters can do when released into the general population (Queen's Gauntlet last year in GW2). Talk about toxic Do we really need more of that crap in the gaming universe?

Sylvermynx

Invasive

jainiadral wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

This actually reminds me of the forced "everyone on your friends list knows when you're online" that WoW and then later RIFT did years back. That was one of the major reasons I left both games. It's no one's business when I'm online.... not even (or maybe especially) my family. I play games to get AWAY from them!

GW2 has something similar, except people can choose to "follow" you without your consent. Go offline and you can't use map chat, which is super-annoying when you're trying to do one of the map event dailies.

Yeah, I noticed that when I first took a look at GW2. Was my LAST look at GW2....

You're smarter than I am I never noticed it until I randomly poked around the interface one day about six months in my second go-round with the game. Tried to figure out how to turn it off, couldn't, shrugged and gave up. Then again, I'm pretty bland, inoffensive, and silent in-game *shrug*

This logging crap is a whole different kettle of fish. I've seen what DPS meters can do when released into the general population (Queen's Gauntlet last year in GW2). Talk about toxic Do we really need more of that crap in the gaming universe?

Absolutely, we do NOT.

Dragneel1207

Invasive

what are logs?

Minno

Useful

52% of the votes are running some [edit] build and don't want people to know lol

[edited for flaming comment]

MissBizz

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

I'm fully aware that it isn't real time, that in no way changes that fact that as it is currently designed everybody can be forced to share their data without consent.

I'm sure you have a different view of things than I do, being a streamer you're clearly much more comfortable putting your information in the public eye. But I'd hope you can understand that not everybody wants to do do this, and not everybody is comfortable with it.

All I'm asking for is a real 100% opt-out. You can use the function as you like, and I can use it as I like. So long as nobody's privacy is being invaded without consent I wouldn't have an issue with this.

All good! To be honest I wouldn't care if people who chose to opt out could fully opt out. Of course, if you are the *only* person who opts out, your data in theory could be figured out from totals etc. But I also don't plan on caring about anyones combat info outside of the progression group I lead (which we already require everyone to post cmx parses so we can math it all out ourselves).

Skallolf wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Wouldn't say yay or nay to this as im here to play the game for fun, not count numbers for days. But hey some people will like it.

You're here to have fun, which I would guess would mean that if you play any group content you wouldn't like people looking into your data and saying "change or gtfo"? Because that's what happens when something like this is implemented with no actual opt out. Some people will like it, and I understand those reasons (the good and bad). But many people will not like it, and those people should have the option not to be part of it.

Tyrobag Do you realize that a player must start the log, end the log, and upload it to a website before they can see anything from it? It's not real time. For small scenarios (dungeons) you already get a good idea of dps from your groupmates by looking at the % of group damage you are doing yourself. I don't mean to start an argument I just wanted to be sure you knew it wasn't real time.

This is true, but the purpose of the system is to refine what skills are best where. This could lead to you joining a random dungeon and being kicked because you don't have a certain skill that a player has previously determined is the meta for that dungeon. It doesn't matter if the player is still unlocking skills, or whether the player is competent at all. Potentially they might queue and be kicked multiple times for not having something that until now has not been "needed".

I expect to see a lot more "Hey healer do you have barrier" or "hey stam dps do you have caltrops" type questions at the start of a run from this being implemented.

@Skallolf to be fair, it's actually easier to use tools we already have available from that, plus our eyes, than this logging tool for those purposes. I actually think using this logging tool would be more difficult for that... It won't lead to *more* of it, because it's actually adding a *more difficult* way of getting that information. If people aren't willing to use the easier way to determine that already, they certainly wont put in more effort to figure it out.

Wolfkeks

Invasive

@Dragneel1207
they explained everything here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

Dojohoda

I don't know all of the details about this, so I haven't formed an opinion.

Tyrobag

Invasive

Minno wrote: »

52% of the votes are running some derp build and don't want people to know lol

Or care about the privacy of themselves and others. [edit]

[edited for flaming comment]