ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

jainiadral

Invasive

Flares wrote: »

The tool is the best thing to ever happen to ESO.As a big fan of FFlogs and Warcraftlogs(same developer) I am happy it is now a part of the game. It would certainly revitalize the endgame community to go for more score pushes and analyze how to perform better.

Anyone can use it to improve their gameplay. It shows how many deaths each dungeon, how many revives you did, and interrupts. Complaining about it is like complaining about how other people in your workplace receive a public contribution metric to see how they can get paid more and then being worried they'll discovered you are skating by by contributing nothing to company, but browsing Reddit. How you should use the tool is the better yourself as a player and not be a bother to the group

I'll just put this here as a comment on public metrics in the workplace. TL;DR: they're a horrible idea.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90260703/the-dark-side-of-gamifying-work

ManwithBeard9

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not.

I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form gives someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

You don't have privacy in ESO, you have that up when you agreed to the ToS. It's not your data that's being shared, it's ESO's data ESO is sharing. It's not your data because it in no way confers to your individual person.

FleetwoodSmack

Invasive

Tyrobag wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

52% of the votes are running some derp build and don't want people to know lol

Or care about the privacy of themselves and others. Your childish response should be all the proof that ZoS needs to see that this function will be misused in its current form.

^This.

Just because we voted that it was intrusive doesn't mean we have 'terrible' builds. It's that we respect people's right to privacy. That'd be like me saying that everyone who said that it was 'useful' would totally be okay if they restructured Alexa to you know... Not have an opt out while it listens to your conversations.

Edit; For the record, I could care less if someone see's my parsing data. I'm not here to impress anyone because they don't impress me. Oh you have 60k DPS? That's nice. Do you have a personality?

Mathius_Mordred

Useful

As a long term user of combat log parsers for Star Trek Online, I am really surprised at the negativity here towards a tool that can be exceptionally useful to help you fine-tune your build, or to allow others to show you how to improve. In 9 years of parsing data in STO I have never once come across a situation where a team member was kicked because of poor parse stats. Think about it for a moment. You are in a random dungeon with a pug, are you really going to start looking up details on each member and spending time analysing whether or not they are suitable for your pug run? Of course not.

The parser is used usually in guild events, to help train players, to help wring every last ounce of performance from your DPS, heal or tanking abilities. In our 9 fleets (guilds) in STO, we used the data to create a scoring system, people who achieved certain scores received handsome prizes, and it was quite often those that played the most and not those who played best who walked off with the prizes. If you are interested you can see it here on our website. Look for MRP Calc and Leaderboards https://www.srs-fleet.net/srs

Not once, in thousands of events, did anyone ever state that it violated their privacy, in fact, it was the opposite, players soon realised how incredibly useful it could be and usually started to work with it themselves. We never bothered using it in pug runs of course, other than to see our own personal data, the other people in pug runs were unknown to us and therefore their data was irrelevant, in any case, it was pretty obvious even without a parse that they were either brilliant, average or awful.

I need to see how this would work with ESO, but if it's what I expect it can be a fantastic addition to the game and to be honest I'm really surprised it wasn't here from the start, after all, if a mediocre MMO like STO has had it for 9 years why wouldn't a AAA MMO like ESO have something similar?

TL/DR Nothing to worry about, a very useful tool indeed to help everyone polish their builds.

Tyrobag

Invasive

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not.

I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form gives someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

You don't have privacy in ESO, you have that up when you agreed to the ToS. It's not your data that's being shared, it's ESO's data ESO is sharing. It's not your data because it in no way confers to your individual person.

Oh? Offline mod doesn't exist? Silly me.

It is a recording of my personal decisions and capabilities, whether they reflect well or poorly on me is irrelevant, it my data because its about me. It is my decision with whom I share this data. Also, ZoS isn't collecting the data, individual players are. The information is stored directly on your computer.

WickidMexican

This is only for pc right? Not console?

Ydrisselle

Flares wrote: »

The tool is the best thing to ever happen to ESO.As a big fan of FFlogs and Warcraftlogs(same developer) I am happy it is now a part of the game. It would certainly revitalize the endgame community to go for more score pushes and analyze how to perform better.

Anyone can use it to improve their gameplay. It shows how many deaths each dungeon, how many revives you did, and interrupts. Complaining about it is like complaining about how other people in your workplace receive a public contribution metric to see how they can get paid more and then being worried they'll discovered you are skating by by contributing nothing to company, but browsing Reddit. How you should use the tool is the better yourself as a player and not be a bother to the group

And it will mean for many people that they won't participate in any group activity. I think it will cause many people to leave some of their guilds, and it will kill some guilds. I prepared the popcorn...

Wolfkeks

Invasive

WickidMexican wrote: »

This is only for pc right? Not console?

Yes, this will for pc atm.

Alienoutlaw

Invasive

the Elite players and guild in the game already have CMX for dps why they need a break down of every button press, sneeze, boi break, fart or ass scratch is beyond me.
i can see this tool not only increasing the gap between the 1% and everyone else just trying to play the game (half the content pushed to far away for the casual player to obtain)
but also it has a very sinister side, you can only opt out at the time of the log being started as yet nothing has been said about being warned a log has been started so potentially you would never know, with that in mind said log could be made public without your knowledge or informed consent, secondly the information gathered could be used to "blacklist players who dont meet some hidden requirements by a group of ppl you will never meet, whilst the majority of players would not do this the potential for abuse is still there.
if ZOS want this to go live changes need to be made 1st and the most important is to make it an opt in function not an opt out as current

MrGraves

Invasive

I would like to be able to fully opt out. Otherwise I feel like for myself and alot of others this will just make people not want to play with other players much. which is something that should be encouraged not discouraged. and for many ppl just going with friends isn't an option. and even friends can be toxic.

I think the tool can be useful but only if it's really an option and not something you can't completely opt out of.

Alienoutlaw

Invasive

just an FYI they have a similar system in Destiny it gives you data on all the players in your raid group how many times they have attemped it how many clears average clear time ect ect, whats to stop someone joining a random group then searching the log site for the other players and then kicking ppl to optimise the group before you even start? it happens in Destiny and that was just a "reference" tool also

Sylvermynx

Invasive

Eh, my builds are likely terribad. And with mega ping I don't group anyway. BUT - as privacy goes, it's a horrible precedent. Y'all need to read the entirety of the article @jainiadral linked:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90260703/the-dark-side-of-gamifying-work

ManwithBeard9

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not.

I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form gives someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

You don't have privacy in ESO, you have that up when you agreed to the ToS. It's not your data that's being shared, it's ESO's data ESO is sharing. It's not your data because it in no way confers to your individual person.

Oh? Offline mod doesn't exist? Silly me.

It is a recording of my personal decisions and capabilities, whether they reflect well or poorly on me is irrelevant, it my data because its about me. It is my decision with whom I share this data. Also, ZoS isn't collecting the data, individual players are. The information is stored directly on your computer.

In offline mode are you unseen in the world, not just in a list? People can still see your character. You can still get mailed things. You. Have.No. Privacy. In. Game. "Your" account isn't yours. It belongs to ZOS, they let you use it under their T&C. All of the data you produce in game belongs to ZOS. The only data that's yours, is your payment and connection info.

mairwen85

Invasive

Simply put, as per the eu gdpr regulation, unless opt in, recording of individual data which may expose an individual must be anonymized. Whatever the motivation, regardless, an individual's personal right to be anonymous must be respected unless explicitly permitted by the individual and agreed to ahead of time with full disclosure of intent by determined usage and relevance. That is the law in europe; failure to comply without eula and individual permit is, simply, unlawful... Equally, said data must be presented to the individual on request and scrubbed if permission is revoked. Big deal currently in Europe... And many providers facing law suits since it became enforced last year.

Edit for context
Vs Facebook and Google for non compliance to gdpr.

Pevey

Invasive

I think this is very useful and also very invasive. Opt-Out needs to be the default, for sure. There is a big difference between having data accessible in the game by your group members and having it accessible online. I don't want anything connected to my username to be accessible by other people online without my consent. Same concept as Steam profiles being visible only to friends. There is a reason reputable companies over time have added much-needed privacy tools and make all user data private by default.

mairwen85

Invasive

Just one more thing, as a customer of zenimax, I am not a public asset, but a private entity... Why should my interaction with any of their products be publicly open data. It is their responsibility as data controller to maintain my anonymity, not to expose as available resource unless they have asked me to opt in for known/agreed relevance of product continuity.

... And breathe.

Cpt_Teemo

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not.

I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form gives someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

You don't have privacy in ESO, you have that up when you agreed to the ToS. It's not your data that's being shared, it's ESO's data ESO is sharing. It's not your data because it in no way confers to your individual person.

Oh? Offline mod doesn't exist? Silly me.

It is a recording of my personal decisions and capabilities, whether they reflect well or poorly on me is irrelevant, it my data because its about me. It is my decision with whom I share this data. Also, ZoS isn't collecting the data, individual players are. The information is stored directly on your computer.

In offline mode are you unseen in the world, not just in a list? People can still see your character. You can still get mailed things. You. Have.No. Privacy. In. Game. "Your" account isn't yours. It belongs to ZOS, they let you use it under their T&C. All of the data you produce in game belongs to ZOS. The only data that's yours, is your payment and connection info.

EU personal data might not belong to ZoS anymore though.

Alienoutlaw

Invasive

mairwen85 wrote: »

Just one more thing, as a customer of zenimax, I am not a public asset, but a private entity... Why should my interaction with any of their products be publicly open data. It is their responsibility as data controller to maintain my anonymity, not to expose as available resource unless they have asked me to opt in for known/agreed relevance of product continuity.

... And breathe.

think the clue is in the way they refer to us as "fans" not customers

Dragneel1207

Invasive

what good will this do?

Jhalin

Useful

It’s got no live feedback. It won’t cause “elitism” (aka, having standards) any more than you get from just watching someone play.

You don’t need numbers to see if someone isn’t pulling their weight. Likewise people who don’t pull their weight in the name of “not being a meta sheeple” wouldn’t even run in consistent groups that care about their build anyway. Pugs aren’t gonna go back and look at your whole history for a normal dungeon. Pugs may go check your history in vet DLCs, where it would be appropriate to know what sort of group support you’ll be getting.

But on the whole, this is a tool for coordinated groups looking to improve, and people trying to better themselves. Some “pro” going back in retrospect to say “haha! I did more dps than that newbie!” is just not going to happen near enough to even be a concern.

If you’re fulfilling your role, no one in a pug is going to give two solitary shts about your build. 9 times out of 10, once you clear the dungeon or trial, you’ll never hear another peep from the group. Your spite of the meta is not a concern to anyone as long as you can actually perform your role.

If you aren’t performing your role, then it’s not this tool that’s going to tip them off.

Banana

Invasive

Im glad I play solo

Starlock

Invasive

This is another example of the 21st century trend towards lack of privacy. Better consumer protections cannot come quickly enough.

Tasear

Invasive

So many privacy concerns....
So many chances at absue...

I don't see it going well.

wishlist14

Invasive

🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🦄🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐏🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑

Analysing data for me is like counting sheep while trying to find the stealthed unicorn Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Itzmichi

Useful

Useful definitely. I mean it will be interesting within a group anyway so I couldn't care less if "Mrs X" and "Mr. Y" just pulled Z amount of damage or had W uptime of a specific skill. CMX will tell me the difference already, so it's not like it's a secret anyway.


People who are pugging anyways know the risks of having a not so good group. I and probably 95% of the community wouldn't bother finding yourself on eso logs just to confirm something which is already obvious.

Mr_Walker

Will likely be toxic. These things always end up that way.

Darlon

Useful

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not.

I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form gives someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

You don't have privacy in ESO, you have that up when you agreed to the ToS. It's not your data that's being shared, it's ESO's data ESO is sharing. It's not your data because it in no way confers to your individual person.

Oh? Offline mod doesn't exist? Silly me.

It is a recording of my personal decisions and capabilities, whether they reflect well or poorly on me is irrelevant, it my data because its about me. It is my decision with whom I share this data. Also, ZoS isn't collecting the data, individual players are. The information is stored directly on your computer.

In offline mode are you unseen in the world, not just in a list? People can still see your character. You can still get mailed things. You. Have.No. Privacy. In. Game. "Your" account isn't yours. It belongs to ZOS, they let you use it under their T&C. All of the data you produce in game belongs to ZOS. The only data that's yours, is your payment and connection info.

EU personal data might not belong to ZoS anymore though.

Nope. That doesn’t apply to in game data like character performance etc. That’s all data that can’t be related to you as a person. Apart from that, the data is not yours, so it doesn’t apply anyways... all data in eso, even ‘your’ account is not yours, it is all owned by zenimax.

Ogou

Useful

mairwen85 wrote: »

Simply put, as per the eu gdpr regulation, unless opt in, recording of individual data which may expose an individual must be anonymized. Whatever the motivation, regardless, an individual's personal right to be anonymous must be respected unless explicitly permitted by the individual and agreed to ahead of time with full disclosure of intent by determined usage and relevance. That is the law in europe; failure to comply without eula and individual permit is, simply, unlawful... Equally, said data must be presented to the individual on request and scrubbed if permission is revoked. Big deal currently in Europe... And many providers facing law suits since it became enforced last year.

Edit for context
Vs Facebook and Google for non compliance to gdpr.

The EU GDPR regulations only apply to personal data. Unless you can prove that this data can be used to identify the real person behind the account this is totally irrelevant.

Parrot1986

Useful

Great tool and I’m confused at the uproar since you have an option to remain anonymous, albeit not to prevent your anonymous data from being uploaded. I do agree ZoS should set the default to opt out and you select an opt in option in settings.

Guilds can already ask for parses before allowing you to trial as well as post DPS after every boss using combat metrics and I don’t see the same uproar against that. In 4 man content I already know what the other DD is doing anyways as well.

This is a great tool for “elite” guilds yes but let’s face it most of the population of the game will never play at that level (myself included) but it’s also a great tool for progression guilds who want to do vMol HM, vCR +1 etc.

Over the last few patches we’ve seen content be nerfed into the ground because of completion rates being so low. Whilst tools like this won’t fix it, they can help as identifying areas where DPS can be increased is a huge benefit in such a DPS centric game. From what I’ve seen from screenshots there’s also damage taken options, healing options so it has group wide benefits as well.

Having more data and knowing more about what went well and what didn’t is crucial for any sort of progression in completing harder content, which this tool is best utilised for.

MaxJrFTW

Useful

I'm very familiar with this after using warcraftlogs for years. Esologs seems to be made by the same people? because it looks and works the same way. It's a tool aimed at players who want to be as good as possible, and want to perfect their performance. If that's not you, then look the other way.