ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Invasive

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

Um, no they don’t have the right to see everything I do. Even though I don’t touch dungeons or trials, even I know that’s a bit too invasive.

Gythral

Invasive

More garbage taking up time and resources that could be deployed to FIX the real issues
like the absolutely horrendous servers, support and communication instead of providing elitists with more muck to spread!

woe

Useful

People who think a text file containing numbers about dps being invasive are just dumb.

Alienoutlaw

Invasive

deflorate wrote: »

People who think a text file containing numbers about dps being invasive are just dumb.

i suggest you watch the Twitch feed from last night and see what that file actually does once uploaded

D0PAMINE

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

the Elite players and guild in the game already have CMX for dps why they need a break down of every button press, sneeze, boi break, fart or ass scratch is beyond me.
i can see this tool not only increasing the gap between the 1% and everyone else just trying to play the game (half the content pushed to far away for the casual player to obtain)
but also it has a very sinister side, you can only opt out at the time of the log being started as yet nothing has been said about being warned a log has been started so potentially you would never know, with that in mind said log could be made public without your knowledge or informed consent, secondly the information gathered could be used to "blacklist players who dont meet some hidden requirements by a group of ppl you will never meet, whilst the majority of players would not do this the potential for abuse is still there.
if ZOS want this to go live changes need to be made 1st and the most important is to make it an opt in function not an opt out as current

So, i'd like to explain something because the end of your post decended into full blown paranoia. Yes, there are likely blacklists of toxic, rude, scummy players to help keep the environment progressive and friendly. You are never going to be booted and put on a blacklist just because your combat data is not top tier. Any Guilds serious about running content use that data to help players enter that realm. We need more raid groups and the only way to keep em' commin is to make sure tools are available in game (not just addons) to allow for that. This is for players who want to improve with the help of players who wan't to teach them.

Anyone who would decide to use this tool to shame, embarass, mock, etc are not elite players, they're literally a POS.

Svenja

Useful

Very Useful.

To the people who are concerned they won't be taken into trials anymore if they opt out of this tool:

The groups who will want you to use this tool in the future are the ones that want you to post your dps after every boss fight now. (And this is not an issue in any organised group!)
You are not running with them either way.

Gythral

Invasive

GDPR ???

I do not give permission for my data to be available on a 3rd party website.

And I have no control over data uploaded by others, from which my DATA can be interpolated (Group Boss fights where someone did not turn it off etc)

Neoealth

I wish people would include more details in their op's. You ask about logs, but logs are you talking about? Just a little detail for people who are not aware please.

I can't vote because I have no idea what logs it is you're referring to.

Neyane

Invasive

You want it? Fine. You use it? Fine. You force me to use it? Bye f**king bye.

I play the game for fun, believe it or not, I have no time for elitism in this game.

FierceSam

Invasive

Clearly they are BOTH useful (for the individual) and MASSIVELY invasive

Have I just unknowingly given permission for every PUG player to see (and comment on) my performance? Or for them to record my performance without my knowledge or consent? Or for them to stick my performance data online without my permission? I don’t think I am at all happy about any of that.

Like all personal data it’s handy for the user and I’m all for that, but simply throwing it out to the community like it’s confetti is really unforgivable and unacceptable. I’d be super happy to have this work for MY data for ME alone to see, but allowing other people to see it should be MY choice.

I can see this being MASSIVELY abused to single out and bully/humiliate players both in game, in guild and online. Which is something ZOS should be really concerned about.

I can also see it being a huge disincentive for PUGs. I can see enough posts about players feeling they don’t want to join PUGs because they fear being bullied by other players. And you only have to look at the forums to see an endless stream of toxic elitists complaining that their group’s dps wasn’t as large as their egos to know that this will happen. So now rather than anonymising their victims they’ll post the stats in full. But now with added chart data. And that’s not a good look.

You only have to look at the effect invasive add ons like loot peaker have had to know this isn’t going to end well. Without loot peaker, you get players offering up gear they are happy to give at the end of a run (which is super cool), with loot peaker you get greedy whispers from players during the run for loot you’ve picked up but might not even have looked at. I did not sign up for that either.

This is a bad idea badly implemented and forced onto the community. It will not end well.

How do I NOT give permission for this.

Jhalin

Useful

Gythral wrote: »

GDPR ???

I do not give permission for my data to be available on a 3rd party website.

And I have no control over data uploaded by others, from which my DATA can be interpolated (Group Boss fights where someone did not turn it off etc)

[edit] No one’s coming after “your” data from combat actions in a video game, which you do actually give ZOS permission to distribute by agreeing to the TOS. Your account isn’t even technically yours.

Besides that, nothing about a combat encounter can give real life info. It’s not telling people your email, or telling them your full legal name, or sharing addresses, or telling them your shopping habits. What are you worried someone is going to find in these logs?

It’s for endgame players, and really any players who wants to perform their role better will find use in it. Everyone else will see no difference in their gaming experience. [edit]

[edited for flaming comments]

FierceSam

Invasive

Oh and ALL the data will be stored online in a site not run by ZOS, allowing the site owners to do ANYTHING THEY LIKE with it

No [edit] way have I consented to this.

[edited for profanity]

FierceSam

Invasive

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So wrong in so many ways.

It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.

If I want you to know I will tell you.

FierceSam

Invasive

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

the Elite players and guild in the game already have CMX for dps why they need a break down of every button press, sneeze, boi break, fart or ass scratch is beyond me.
i can see this tool not only increasing the gap between the 1% and everyone else just trying to play the game (half the content pushed to far away for the casual player to obtain)
but also it has a very sinister side, you can only opt out at the time of the log being started as yet nothing has been said about being warned a log has been started so potentially you would never know, with that in mind said log could be made public without your knowledge or informed consent, secondly the information gathered could be used to "blacklist players who dont meet some hidden requirements by a group of ppl you will never meet, whilst the majority of players would not do this the potential for abuse is still there.
if ZOS want this to go live changes need to be made 1st and the most important is to make it an opt in function not an opt out as current

So, i'd like to explain something because the end of your post decended into full blown paranoia. Yes, there are likely blacklists of toxic, rude, scummy players to help keep the environment progressive and friendly. You are never going to be booted and put on a blacklist just because your combat data is not top tier. Any Guilds serious about running content use that data to help players enter that realm. We need more raid groups and the only way to keep em' commin is to make sure tools are available in game (not just addons) to allow for that. This is for players who want to improve with the help of players who wan't to teach them.

Anyone who would decide to use this tool to shame, embarass, mock, etc are not elite players, they're literally a POS.

And there are many examples of their output on these very forums.

This is not going to end well

Kel

Invasive

I posted this in the main thread, but I'll ask here as well....


Does this track all data? Including PvP?

I think that'll be hilarious, especially if down the road this does come to console. So many players running "secret" PvP builds...easy to tell the gear set up from a damage parse. Might be bad if you're trying to keep that OP build to yourself.

Might make PvP a little more...copy pasted (I dont know a good term to use at the moment...carbon copy gear wise) than it already is now.

Edit: Let me ask in another way.
How many players, who might not view the forum, are going to want to test their burst against live players, (with resists and such, not like a test dummy) either in Cyrodiil or BG's, will upload their data not knowing they are basically putting their build on display for all to see?
This WILL change PvP in ESO.

Jhalin

Useful

FierceSam wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

the Elite players and guild in the game already have CMX for dps why they need a break down of every button press, sneeze, boi break, fart or ass scratch is beyond me.
i can see this tool not only increasing the gap between the 1% and everyone else just trying to play the game (half the content pushed to far away for the casual player to obtain)
but also it has a very sinister side, you can only opt out at the time of the log being started as yet nothing has been said about being warned a log has been started so potentially you would never know, with that in mind said log could be made public without your knowledge or informed consent, secondly the information gathered could be used to "blacklist players who dont meet some hidden requirements by a group of ppl you will never meet, whilst the majority of players would not do this the potential for abuse is still there.
if ZOS want this to go live changes need to be made 1st and the most important is to make it an opt in function not an opt out as current

So, i'd like to explain something because the end of your post decended into full blown paranoia. Yes, there are likely blacklists of toxic, rude, scummy players to help keep the environment progressive and friendly. You are never going to be booted and put on a blacklist just because your combat data is not top tier. Any Guilds serious about running content use that data to help players enter that realm. We need more raid groups and the only way to keep em' commin is to make sure tools are available in game (not just addons) to allow for that. This is for players who want to improve with the help of players who wan't to teach them.

Anyone who would decide to use this tool to shame, embarass, mock, etc are not elite players, they're literally a POS.

And there are many examples of their output on these very forums.

This is not going to end well

No there’s not many examples. I can think of maybe one in the last few weeks of threads that could be considered shaming underperforming players.

You’ll see people complain about bad dps and people not performing their roles. If you think these logs will “expose” you, then chances are you’re not actually pulling your weight in a group.

And again, maybe you weren’t paying attention, but these aren’t live report systems. They’re an upload-for-review system for players who want to find ways to improve. A pug is gonna know if you’re decent or trash by the time you kill the first boss. They don’t even need any addons for that.

You are not so important that someone is going to parse through an entire dungeon’s worth of data just to stick you on an imaginary list of people they will avoid grouping with forever.

DyingIsEasy

Useful

You have a setting that allows you to be anonymous in these logs.

Ratzkifal

Invasive

Tough question. I'm leaning more on the invasive side, but I'm not denying how useful that is. I'm actually really glad that this is a thing now because it gives more accurate dps data to those that aren't using a lot of addons and I always wondered how my dps compares to others.
HOWEVER, I think it would be problematic if the feature would be active on default rather than disabled on default and active on demand.

Just because I felt like it, I looked up what the German data protection law has to say about this.
The basic jist of it is "prohibition with reservation of permission". You are not allowed to collect personal or person-related data (which is specifically mentioned to also apply to pseudonyms like online usernames and situations were no name is stated but you can still determine who the person is) UNLESS the law specifically allows it or the affected person gives explicit consent.
I'd interpret that as the feature must be put on annonymous on default. Also, it's not enough for ZOS to put the agreement in their ToU as consent must be explicitly given yadda yadda yadda. ToU won't hold up in court.

Alucardo

Uhm, I think I may have missed an important part of the news or something. Which logs? Without even knowing the situation, I'm not very keen on anything that collects data, unless you can completely opt out of it.
I think it's fine if people are okay with it, and want to send data to help improve a service. But you MUST be able to disable it if you wish.

Tommy_The_Gun

Invasive

Alucardo wrote: »

Uhm, I think I may have missed an important part of the news or something. Which logs? Without even knowing the situation, I'm not very keen on anything that collects data, unless you can completely opt out of it.
I think it's fine if people are okay with it, and want to send data to help improve a service. But you MUST be able to disable it if you wish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2qkhRk20Q
This is yesterday stream. Skip to the part where they talk about ESO Logs.

MLGProPlayer

Useful

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

And if people in your group know you're the only anonymous one and they are rude about it, let's be real, do you even want to play with them anyways? No.

You're missing the point.

a·non·y·mous
/əˈnänəməs/
adjective
(of a person) not identified by name; of unknown name.
"the donor's wish to remain anonymous"
synonyms: unnamed, of unknown name, nameless, incognito, unidentified, unknown, unspecified, undesignated, unacknowledged, mystery; More
having no outstanding, individual, or unusual features; unremarkable or impersonal.
"the anonymous black car waiting to take him to the airport"
synonyms: characterless, unremarkable, nondescript, impersonal, faceless, colorless, gray
"an anonymous London housing estate"
used in names of support groups for addicts of a substance or behavior to indicate the confidentiality maintained among members of the group.

If they can identify you, you're not anonymous. Period. People don't want to share their data. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Teams will kick you if you don't share the data anyway. It'll be mandatory for all progression guilds, and for good reason, it's a super useful resource.

MLGProPlayer

Useful

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

NOOOOO! this is an invasive feature that I want no part of. This will hurt casual players who just want to do group and trial contant. I can see this being misused it's just what people do. I can see incorporating some addon features to the base game but for personal use only. This will be abused.

There is no way for it to be misused since you can choose to hide your identity.

MLGProPlayer

Useful

Svenja wrote: »

Very Useful.

To the people who are concerned they won't be taken into trials anymore if they opt out of this tool:

The groups who will want you to use this tool in the future are the ones that want you to post your dps after every boss fight now. (And this is not an issue in any organised group!)
You are not running with them either way.

This.

You wouldn't be able to get into progression guilds anyway without decent DPS. And if you posted fake parses to get in and you're afraid this feature will expose you, that's your problem.

heng14rwb17_ESO

NO 50K DEEPS NO TALK !

MLGProPlayer

Useful

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

And if people in your group know you're the only anonymous one and they are rude about it, let's be real, do you even want to play with them anyways? No.

You're missing the point.

a·non·y·mous
/əˈnänəməs/
adjective
(of a person) not identified by name; of unknown name.
"the donor's wish to remain anonymous"
synonyms: unnamed, of unknown name, nameless, incognito, unidentified, unknown, unspecified, undesignated, unacknowledged, mystery; More
having no outstanding, individual, or unusual features; unremarkable or impersonal.
"the anonymous black car waiting to take him to the airport"
synonyms: characterless, unremarkable, nondescript, impersonal, faceless, colorless, gray
"an anonymous London housing estate"
used in names of support groups for addicts of a substance or behavior to indicate the confidentiality maintained among members of the group.

If they can identify you, you're not anonymous. Period. People don't want to share their data. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Teams will kick you if you don't share the data anyway. It'll be mandatory for all progression guilds, and for good reason, it's a super useful resource.

Where did I mention kicks in my post? Literally, please quote me.

Hint; I didn't.

Where did I say you did?

You mentioned kicking while replying to me. What I had said has literally nothing to do with what you're trying to argue.

You said "People don't want to share their data. It's not a difficult concept to understand". I said it doesn't matter if they don't because they won't last on any serious team.

This feature is for serious raiders. It won't affect casuals in any way. Serious raiders have absolutely no reason to hide their data. Doing so means they lied about their parses.

XiDiabolismiX

Useful

Wow, I’m assuming everyone who thinks it’s invasive are people who like to be carried through content...

People are way too soft nowadays. What is the likelihood of you being called out if you’re a casual player, honestly. This is going to be a good tool to help with progression raid teams get better by delving in depth to why they’re aren’t progressing. And if it’s because of a potato player, they can make the correction.

Honestly, stop whining about something that will probably not affect 90% of you..

Arciris

Invasive

Gythral wrote: »

More garbage taking up time and resources that could be deployed to FIX the real issues
like the absolutely horrendous servers, support and communication instead of providing elitists with more muck to spread!

I don't agree much with the wording but I do agree that this offers only a slight upgrade to already existing tools and will only be useful to a very small minority of people (not talking about forum people, forum people is already a minority population of people who care enough to be here), while raising legitimate concerns in a majority of other folks.

I completely agree that the way the use of resources is prioritized seems really off, when breaking free, bar swapping and even skills firing (especially ultimates) are now RNG based and need an urgent fix - just to give a few examples that are affecting a very large number of people and impacting heavily their enjoyment of the game.

Also, I don't see how this will improve Accessibility of harder content but i can definitely see how this new tool could lower that same Accessibility.

Addressing the issue of Accessibility seems to go the same direction of "upping the floor/lowering the ceiling": result in the exact opposite of the original intent.

FleetwoodSmack

Invasive

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

And if people in your group know you're the only anonymous one and they are rude about it, let's be real, do you even want to play with them anyways? No.

You're missing the point.

a·non·y·mous
/əˈnänəməs/
adjective
(of a person) not identified by name; of unknown name.
"the donor's wish to remain anonymous"
synonyms: unnamed, of unknown name, nameless, incognito, unidentified, unknown, unspecified, undesignated, unacknowledged, mystery; More
having no outstanding, individual, or unusual features; unremarkable or impersonal.
"the anonymous black car waiting to take him to the airport"
synonyms: characterless, unremarkable, nondescript, impersonal, faceless, colorless, gray
"an anonymous London housing estate"
used in names of support groups for addicts of a substance or behavior to indicate the confidentiality maintained among members of the group.

If they can identify you, you're not anonymous. Period. People don't want to share their data. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Teams will kick you if you don't share the data anyway. It'll be mandatory for all progression guilds, and for good reason, it's a super useful resource.

Where did I mention kicks in my post? Literally, please quote me.

Hint; I didn't.

Where did I say you did?

You mentioned kicking while replying to me. What I had said has literally nothing to do with what you're trying to argue.

You said some people don't want to share the data. I said it doesn't matter if they do or don't because they won't last on any serious team.

This feature is for serious raiders. It won't affect casuals in any way.

That's nice? Look, you're entitled to your opinion but I'm not the one, mama.

MLGProPlayer

Useful

Arciris wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

More garbage taking up time and resources that could be deployed to FIX the real issues
like the absolutely horrendous servers, support and communication instead of providing elitists with more muck to spread!

I don't agree much with the wording but I do agree that this offers only a slight upgrade to already existing tools and will only be useful to a very small minority of people (not talking about forum people, forum people is already a minority population of people who care enough to be here), while raising legitimate concerns in a majority of other folks.

I completely agree that the way the use of resources is prioritized seems really off, when breaking free, bar swapping and even skills firing (especially ultimates) are now RNG based and need an urgent fix - just to give a few examples that are affecting a very large number of people and impacting heavily their enjoyment of the game.

Also, I don't see how this will improve Accessibility of harder content but i can definitely see how this new tool could lower that same Accessibility.

Addressing the issue of Accessibility seems to go the same direction of "upping the floor/lowering the ceiling": result in the exact opposite of the original intent.

It helps progression guilds progress. It will drastically increase accessibility.

It doesn't affect casuals in any way, shape, or form so you statement of "while raising legitimate concerns in a majority of other folks" is complete nonsense.

thedovahmon

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

what are logs?

Tree Corpses that are used in Crafting and Construction. Followers of the Green Pact hate it when people do that.