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ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Uhm, I think I may have missed an important part of the news or something. Which logs? Without even knowing the situation, I'm not very keen on anything that collects data, unless you can completely opt out of it.
I think it's fine if people are okay with it, and want to send data to help improve a service. But you MUST be able to disable it if you wish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2qkhRk20Q
This is yesterday stream. Skip to the part where they talk about ESO Logs.
Ah cool, thanks. It's not what I thought it was going to be.
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FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvasiveMLGProPlayer wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.
So wrong in so many ways.
It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.
If I want you to know I will tell you.
That's exactly how it works though.
No it isn’t.
Once activated by a single player, it secretly records all the data from your group irrespective of whether you ask or tell the others that you are doing this. It allows YOU to secretly view my performance without my permission and then do anything you want with my performance data.
It neither informs me that this is being done, nor provides me with any way of viewing, amending or deleting my data.
It then squirrels the data away on a third party website, allowing THEM to gather data on all players and do whatever they please with it.
If that doesn’t worry you to some extent I politely suggest you haven’t thought it through.
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UsefulUseful. If you make yourself anonymous then the people seeing on the website won't know it's you
And if people in your group know you're the only anonymous one and they are rude about it, let's be real, do you even want to play with them anyways? No.
I'm very excited for our progression team who regularly takes cmx screenshots and makes spreadsheets to have this tool make our lives easier tho.
It is impossible to play ESO without playing with elitists. If I refused to play with any group that had elitists in it I wouldn't be able to play trials.
Good thing I don't do Trials.
Which is great for you if you don't care about that content, but may of us like trials.
Its not even that I personally expect to get much flack from this addition (my dps is reasonably good), but I know it will be misused to promote toxicity. I also don't like the idea of people looking at my data without my consent. Whats next, the ability to check someone's gear/ability set up? Their rotation? If I want you to know these things I'd tell you when you ask.
Like I said in the poll.
While I don't really want my DPS to be public knowledge usually, when it comes to group content, particularly for Trials, it could certainly serve a valuable purpose.
Of course, it also opens up an awful lot of opportunities for abuse, but, hey, if you're doing trials and you're not qualified (which I'm not), maybe your teammates actually deserve to be warned, eh?
Which is what a polite request for a dps parse is for.
Some players post fake parses, or use cheese to inflate their DPS. In-content metrics are important to progression groups.3 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UsefulMLGProPlayer wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.
So wrong in so many ways.
It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.
If I want you to know I will tell you.
That's exactly how it works though.
No it isn’t.
Once activated by a single player, it secretly records all the data from your group irrespective of whether you ask or tell the others that you are doing this. It allows YOU to secretly view my performance without my permission and then do anything you want with my performance data.
It neither informs me that this is being done, nor provides me with any way of viewing, amending or deleting my data.
It then squirrels the data away on a third party website, allowing THEM to gather data on all players and do whatever they please with it.
If that doesn’t worry you to some extent I politely suggest you haven’t thought it through.
It doesn't let anyone view your performance if you are set to anonymous.4 -
Wolfkeks✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvasiveAs far as I understand it works similar to the wow logs.
And here is a good video of how these wow logs work, how they look like etc if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf3cFvU1bCI
(Warning though, it takes more that 40 min
)
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - FadomaiFormer Emperor, Grand Overlord, vAA hm, vHelRa hm, vSO hm, vMoL hm, vHoF hm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSS hm, vKA, vRG, Flawless Conquerer, Spirit Slayer6 -
FleetwoodSmack✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvasiveMLGProPlayer wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.
So wrong in so many ways.
It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.
If I want you to know I will tell you.
That's exactly how it works though.
No it isn’t.
Once activated by a single player, it secretly records all the data from your group irrespective of whether you ask or tell the others that you are doing this. It allows YOU to secretly view my performance without my permission and then do anything you want with my performance data.
It neither informs me that this is being done, nor provides me with any way of viewing, amending or deleting my data.
It then squirrels the data away on a third party website, allowing THEM to gather data on all players and do whatever they please with it.
If that doesn’t worry you to some extent I politely suggest you haven’t thought it through.
I'll say this. If it doesn't have/track;- PvP areas
- Set data
- Resource regen
I might be less against it. But since there's no confirmation either way (that I've seen and I'm not able to watch the stream atm)? Yeah, it's a nope.
Note; Even if it doesn't track PvP areas, the other two I'm still noping on.Edited by FleetwoodSmack on April 13, 2019 11:53AMTell me lies, tell me sweet little lies!2 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvasiveGDPR ???
I do not give permission for my data to be available on a 3rd party website.
And I have no control over data uploaded by others, from which my DATA can be interpolated (Group Boss fights where someone did not turn it off etc)
Please get over yourself. No one’s coming after “your” data from combat actions in a video game, which you do actually give ZOS permission to distribute by agreeing to the TOS. Your account isn’t even technically yours.
Besides that, nothing about a combat encounter can give real life info. It’s not telling people your email, or telling them your full legal name, or sharing addresses, or telling them your shopping habits. What are you worried someone is going to find in these logs?
It’s for endgame players, and really any players who wants to perform their role better will find use in it. Everyone else will see no difference in their gaming experience. Chill the hell out
Stop saying “my account isn’t mine” you sound like a broken record.
Secondly: some people actually BOUGHT the physical disc of ESO. Shocker. So is it not their property then?7 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvasiveAlienoutlaw wrote: »the Elite players and guild in the game already have CMX for dps why they need a break down of every button press, sneeze, boi break, fart or ass scratch is beyond me.
i can see this tool not only increasing the gap between the 1% and everyone else just trying to play the game (half the content pushed to far away for the casual player to obtain)
but also it has a very sinister side, you can only opt out at the time of the log being started as yet nothing has been said about being warned a log has been started so potentially you would never know, with that in mind said log could be made public without your knowledge or informed consent, secondly the information gathered could be used to "blacklist players who dont meet some hidden requirements by a group of ppl you will never meet, whilst the majority of players would not do this the potential for abuse is still there.
if ZOS want this to go live changes need to be made 1st and the most important is to make it an opt in function not an opt out as current
So, i'd like to explain something because the end of your post decended into full blown paranoia. Yes, there are likely blacklists of toxic, rude, scummy players to help keep the environment progressive and friendly. You are never going to be booted and put on a blacklist just because your combat data is not top tier. Any Guilds serious about running content use that data to help players enter that realm. We need more raid groups and the only way to keep em' commin is to make sure tools are available in game (not just addons) to allow for that. This is for players who want to improve with the help of players who wan't to teach them.
Anyone who would decide to use this tool to shame, embarass, mock, etc are not elite players, they're literally a POS.
full blown paranoia or not, that fact remains it is open to just that type of abuse, it already happens in other games that use similar "tools" and the fact you acknowledge the fact ppl may use it for such purposes only goes to further my point, whilst i agree done correctly and with adequate privacy assurences it will be a useful tool for guilds7 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭UsefulPeople worry about not getting picked up to random parties? We can already tell if someone is a "bad" player. No need for a log. This is to analyse and optimise raid groups.
Casuals worry about nothing that doesnt even affect them. Every time I go into a vet pledge and see I have 75+% group dps, I already know that the other DPS is not that great.
No need for logs. Yet most people keep going. Because in dungeons etc it doesnt matter.
But when you want to reach higher cores etc in vet hardmode trials, Content casuals will likely not do. There it matters. or could matter.
Stop worrying. It wont affect the majority of players in any way.5 -
Bc_bmx✭✭✭To be honest, I just want something like combat metrics on console... If this starts that process im all for it.1 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »Secondly: some people actually BOUGHT the physical disc of ESO. Shocker. So is it not their property then?
No, it isn't.
You pay for access to a service.
The physical disc really means nothing.
You get exactly, and only, what you agreed to in the TOS.5 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.
So wrong in so many ways.
It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.
If I want you to know I will tell you.
That's exactly how it works though.
No it isn’t.
Once activated by a single player, it secretly records all the data from your group irrespective of whether you ask or tell the others that you are doing this. It allows YOU to secretly view my performance without my permission and then do anything you want with my performance data.
It neither informs me that this is being done, nor provides me with any way of viewing, amending or deleting my data.
It then squirrels the data away on a third party website, allowing THEM to gather data on all players and do whatever they please with it.
If that doesn’t worry you to some extent I politely suggest you haven’t thought it through.
It doesn't let anyone view your performance if you are set to anonymous.
That is not the case.
The data IS collected.
Just the anonymous player's name is removed. Their performance is still collected.4 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvasiveMLGProPlayer wrote: »More garbage taking up time and resources that could be deployed to FIX the real issues
like the absolutely horrendous servers, support and communication instead of providing elitists with more muck to spread!
I don't agree much with the wording but I do agree that this offers only a slight upgrade to already existing tools and will only be useful to a very small minority of people (not talking about forum people, forum people is already a minority population of people who care enough to be here), while raising legitimate concerns in a majority of other folks.
I completely agree that the way the use of resources is prioritized seems really off, when breaking free, bar swapping and even skills firing (especially ultimates) are now RNG based and need an urgent fix - just to give a few examples that are affecting a very large number of people and impacting heavily their enjoyment of the game.
Also, I don't see how this will improve Accessibility of harder content but i can definitely see how this new tool could lower that same Accessibility.
Addressing the issue of Accessibility seems to go the same direction of "upping the floor/lowering the ceiling": result in the exact opposite of the original intent.
It helps progression guilds progress. It will drastically increase accessibility.
It doesn't affect casuals in any way, shape, or form so you statement of "while raising legitimate concerns in a majority of other folks" is complete nonsense.
As I'm writing this post, the "Invasive" option collects 56% of the votes, so my statement is not non sense, it is fact.
Maybe this will help some progression guilds for Trials, I never said otherwise, but what about Vet DLC dungeons?
People are already afraid to even attempt them, even on normal, and with another tool to further intimidate them, I don't see how this will increase sales on those DLC's....
At ZOS, they are probably brainstorming to find out what kind of "not-resource-heavy-to-produce" content they could use instead of Dungeons, because obviously those are not meeting their sale expectations and if their attempt to increase Accessibility on those fail, you can be sure they will drop the production of such content: is that what you want?
Also, the main point of the argument was to question the choice of prioritizing the use of resources - however small- for the benefit of a very small percentage of the population over using those resources to help improve the gaming experience of a larger number of people.1 -
ZOS_RogerJ✭✭✭✭Just a friendly reminder, as several comments have been removed or edited, to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil. Remember that it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvasiveMLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.
So wrong in so many ways.
It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.
If I want you to know I will tell you.
That's exactly how it works though.
No it isn’t.
Once activated by a single player, it secretly records all the data from your group irrespective of whether you ask or tell the others that you are doing this. It allows YOU to secretly view my performance without my permission and then do anything you want with my performance data.
It neither informs me that this is being done, nor provides me with any way of viewing, amending or deleting my data.
It then squirrels the data away on a third party website, allowing THEM to gather data on all players and do whatever they please with it.
If that doesn’t worry you to some extent I politely suggest you haven’t thought it through.
It doesn't let anyone view your performance if you are set to anonymous.
Yes it does, this is the Exact problem. "Anonymous" mode only hides your name, it shares all other data. When they add the option to opt out of any data sharing there will no longer be an issue.
From your posts its clear you hadn't understood that point. Hopefully you realize that with no way to stop others from collecting your data without consent, this is a pure invasion of privacy.
Again, the one thing they need to add is an option to opt out entirely and show no data.2 -
Suddwrath✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UsefulI'm surprised by the number of people who genuinely believe this is more negative than it really is. This is not going to increase the toxicity which already exists in the game.
This is going to be a beneficial tool for trials guilds. People aren't going to "ask to see your logs" in order to join a pug group as others have suggested. During the dungeon/trial the data cannot be seen in real-time. Only one person needs to run the logger (the raid lead) so it isn't like everyone is forced to run it.
If people are so bothered by others requiring a certain DPS threshold for content then simply join a casual PvE guild. There are MANY of them. For example: Some guilds require 45-50k DPS for vMaw, whereas others only require 30-35k. So if you are currently in a guild which requires 50k parses, then simply look for a guild which has lower requirements. They exist. But you need to adjust your expectations accordingly. If you are only pulling 15k DPS then you cannot expect to join content which has mechanics which 1-shot the group if the DPS is not high enough.4 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveAnd if people in your group know you're the only anonymous one and they are rude about it, let's be real, do you even want to play with them anyways? No.
Just because I group up with people, doesn't mean I'm ready to strip naked in front of every one of them. Even if they're nice and not rude.
Also, you don't always run with "friends", even within a guild. You make compromises and accept to be with some people that you don't like that much - and vice-versa. That's part of socializing.
I can tell this tool will tear entire guilds apart.
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Suddwrath✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UsefulAlso, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:
"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."
This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.4 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveI'm surprised by the number of people who genuinely believe this is more negative than it really is. This is not going to increase the toxicity which already exists in the game.
This is going to be a beneficial tool for trials guilds. People aren't going to "ask to see your logs" in order to join a pug group as others have suggested. During the dungeon/trial the data cannot be seen in real-time. Only one person needs to run the logger (the raid lead) so it isn't like everyone is forced to run it.
If people are so bothered by others requiring a certain DPS threshold for content then simply join a casual PvE guild. There are MANY of them. For example: Some guilds require 45-50k DPS for vMaw, whereas others only require 30-35k. So if you are currently in a guild which requires 50k parses, then simply look for a guild which has lower requirements. They exist. But you need to adjust your expectations accordingly. If you are only pulling 15k DPS then you cannot expect to join content which has mechanics which 1-shot the group if the DPS is not high enough.
Sorry, but your entire post shows that you have literally no idea of the life of an "average player" in ESO, nor of what's happening in what you call "casual guilds".
ANyway, like mentioned in the other thread, it seems that this tool would make everyone happy IF (and only IF) recording / logging is only possible with the active express consent of EVERY member of the group.
That would not hurt the progression players, but protect those who're concerned with their privacy.
I suggest we all "unite" to require this from ZOS and Kihra.9 -
Suddwrath✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UsefulAs I'm writing this post, the "Invasive" option collects 56% of the votes, so my statement is not non sense, it is fact.
You cannot determine the factuality of your statement from a poll on the forums. The users who took this poll are not an accurate representation of the total playerbase. First, the users who come to the forums generally do not reflect the overall playerbase. Second, the users who came to the forums to express their concerns and frustrations specifically for the new logging feature do not take into consideration the players who actually like the new feature (but they do not feel compelled to come to the forums to express that).
tl;dr
Player-generated forum polls don't hold very much weight.2 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveAlso, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:
"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."
This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.
EULA or ToS =/= Law.
EU has recent laws that would probably shred this to pieces, should it come to a legal fight.
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Suddwrath✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Usefulanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Sorry, but your entire post shows that you have literally no idea of the life of an "average player" in ESO, nor of what's happening in what you call "casual guilds".
I have every idea of what it means to be casual.
I have been playing this game for over 5 years, but I didn't even know that "builds" existed until a little over a year ago. I had no idea what min/maxing even was. I didn't know what "BiS" stood for. I spent FOUR YEARS running around with a build which didn't make sense and only did around 10k DPS. I could barely even make it through normal dungeons. It would take me over 2 hours to complete normal CoA2. I wasn't able to beat vMA until a year ago.
That was FOUR YEARS of me being a casual. I didn't even look up guides until a little over a year ago, and ever since then I improved myself as a player and in doing so I am now able to complete end-game content.
Shame on you for making that assumption.6 -
Suddwrath✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Usefulanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Sorry, but your entire post shows that you have literally no idea of the life of an "average player" in ESO, nor of what's happening in what you call "casual guilds".
And as for your other assumption as to how familiar I am with casual guilds: I am an officer in a large (400+) player PvE guild which does both casual and hardcore content. For our casual players we barely even have any requirements and we are more than helpful and patient with them. Those types of guilds DO exist. You just have to find them.Edited by Suddwrath on April 13, 2019 2:07PM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Useful. If you make yourself anonymous then the people seeing on the website won't know it's you
And if people in your group know you're the only anonymous one and they are rude about it, let's be real, do you even want to play with them anyways? No.
I'm very excited for our progression team who regularly takes cmx screenshots and makes spreadsheets to have this tool make our lives easier tho.
I agree the tool is useful and a benefit to top raiding groups and those interested in improving their playstyle.
However, we cannot truly opt out. We can only hide our name. It seems the website @Kihra built does not provide any more anonymity than the in game toggle does which mean players can figure out exactly who you are and everything you did even if you chose to be anonymous.
Zos could have added a database field for all data that would be captured and buffs would be set to always pass through since that is required for analysis and damage data would be set to never pass through unless someone opted in.
I hate to say it but the game is essentially powered by a large database and on the simplistic side that is exactly how a database works.Edited by idk on April 13, 2019 2:24PM4 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveI have every idea of what it means to be casual.
I didn't say "casual". I said "average".
According to what you say, you went from "very bad" straight to "good", in a very short time, so you have no clue what the "average player" 's life is like ingame.
What do you think of my suggestion in order to reconcile ppl for and against the "logger" ? Because that's the topic and that's what matters.
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StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvasiveI picked invasive cause, there was no "Other" option.
For progression, you need logs, simple as that. Here's the issue though. Before WoD, Warcraft Logs could be cheesed so hard by people attacking kill able critters (i.e: rats, bugs, etc.) And there used to be a lot of them in dungeons and raids, now, not a whole lot anymore.
This fooled a lot of serious progressive raiding end game guilds, and caused a lot of unwarranted hate to casuals looking to up their game going into harder content. Now, if ESO logs are able to ignore these critters as "mobs" or ZOS just removes these critters so the logs dont get cheesed to oblivion and back, there will really be no issue at all.3 -
DyingIsEasy✭✭✭Usefulanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I have every idea of what it means to be casual.
I didn't say "casual". I said "average".
According to what you say, you went from "very bad" straight to "good", in a very short time, so you have no clue what the "average player" 's life is like ingame.
What do you think of my suggestion in order to reconcile ppl for and against the "logger" ? Because that's the topic and that's what matters.
Nice gatekeeping.
You can't be an average player because you don't agree with me.6
This discussion has been closed.