Earthgore.... is it heading for nerfdom?

mairwen85

@Jameliel the devs aren't crying about sets. The players are.

Here's the thing, they are giving us powerful sets to keep selling dlc and for player retention due to horizontal progression. Its not ineptitude, its marketing...

Players want rewards for completing content.

People will always find a way to exploit anything that gives an edge, however little, and other people will always find something to blame for their own weaknesses.

Sets and stat boosts are the perfect foundation for all 4.

Ankael07

dazee wrote: »

PVP whiners are the only people who like this change. And people who never play healers.

Who do you think is gonna whine for PVE? Trial bosses?

Canned_Apples

35 seconds is hardly a CD for such an OPed set.

firedrgn

The big mistake was selling it to pvp from the golden. Thats when the winning really started. Should have just left the helm to those that earned it.

mairwen85

Ankael07 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

PVP whiners are the only people who like this change. And people who never play healers.

Who do you think is gonna whine for PVE? Trial bosses?

Nobody... Because the primary motivation for pve is to out power the environment.

PVP and pve are distinct design methodologies that are in direct conflict. ZoS can either design all pve rewards around pvp, thus making them flat and pointless, or make them not apply to pvp... Because of their imposed paradigm, the latter is not the route they choose, and the former is a pointless concept for effort vs payoff. So, we have environmentally over performing sets in pvp - - nerf or new rule set? Not our call to make tbh.

SoLooney

Daus wrote: »

I guess healers will actually have to start using abilities again in PvE. Woe is me.

If you think earthgore is carrying groups as the only heal, you are sorely mistaken

Ankael07

mairwen85 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

PVP whiners are the only people who like this change. And people who never play healers.

Who do you think is gonna whine for PVE? Trial bosses?

Nobody... Because the primary motivation for pve is to out power the environment.

PVP and pve are distinct design methodologies that are in direct conflict. ZoS can either design all pve rewards around pvp, thus making them flat and pointless, or make them not apply to pvp... Because of their imposed paradigm, the latter is not the route they choose, and the former is a pointless concept for effort vs payoff. So, we have environmentally over performing sets in pvp - - nerf or new rule set? Not our call to make tbh.

Except it gets easier and easier to ''outpower the environment'' to the point of being too easy to have fun. So in order to keep the game challenging developers either nerf some skills or make harder content. Since CP wont be increasing in Elsweyr update you can expect even more PVE nerfs

Waffennacht

Ankael07 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

PVP whiners are the only people who like this change. And people who never play healers.

Who do you think is gonna whine for PVE? Trial bosses?

Nobody... Because the primary motivation for pve is to out power the environment.

PVP and pve are distinct design methodologies that are in direct conflict. ZoS can either design all pve rewards around pvp, thus making them flat and pointless, or make them not apply to pvp... Because of their imposed paradigm, the latter is not the route they choose, and the former is a pointless concept for effort vs payoff. So, we have environmentally over performing sets in pvp - - nerf or new rule set? Not our call to make tbh.

Except it gets easier and easier to ''outpower the environment'' to the point of being too easy to have fun. So in order to keep the game challenging developers either nerf some skills or make harder content. Since CP wont be increasing in Elsweyr update you can expect even more PVE nerfs

Dead on. Very logical

Wing

I zerg surf in pvp solo so take this for what its worth

I used it a bit on my warden healer to heal the masses and found it mixed, I don't like inconsistent sets and 35s is a lot in fluid pvp when your alone. I much prefer things like troll king that effect everyone I heal at all times for its duration, its not as flashy but the consistent and theoretical amount of healing is massive.

but in ball groups? yeah it was dumb, 35s cd is nothing when have the ball is running them. we just need more ranged aoe's period and more that scale with targets like proxy det.

I PROMISE you if we had ranged AOE abilities that increased in damage with the amount of people hit, people would spread out.

angelncelestine

As a pve healer I am not really all that sad about hearing about this nerf. In a way I am sorta happy about it. All I see are groups with 3 dps, and a tank with EG. Imo the set just made healers even less needed.

mairwen85

Ankael07 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

PVP whiners are the only people who like this change. And people who never play healers.

Who do you think is gonna whine for PVE? Trial bosses?

Nobody... Because the primary motivation for pve is to out power the environment.

PVP and pve are distinct design methodologies that are in direct conflict. ZoS can either design all pve rewards around pvp, thus making them flat and pointless, or make them not apply to pvp... Because of their imposed paradigm, the latter is not the route they choose, and the former is a pointless concept for effort vs payoff. So, we have environmentally over performing sets in pvp - - nerf or new rule set? Not our call to make tbh.

Except it gets easier and easier to ''outpower the environment'' to the point of being too easy to have fun. So in order to keep the game challenging developers either nerf some skills or make harder content. Since CP wont be increasing in Elsweyr update you can expect even more PVE nerfs

Exactly. We can add a fifth case to my linked comment

Kadoin

dazee wrote: »

PVP whiners are the only people who like this change. And people who never play healers.

Actually I have 3 healers and like the change. I've never crutched on EG or any other proc set to heal effectively. When a set can heal more than an actual healer can, purify better than a templar can, and remove ground AoEs better than negate for only a 2 pc, I have a problem with it.

I have a bigger problem when its stacked and outhealing me or giving pure damage/tank builds better healing than I can accomplish while they take no negative impact (like wasting a GCD or having to stop offense) and its conditions are too lax.

As for why I don't like it in PvE is because :

(1) Its making healers terrible: I'm not surprised when I am tanking to see the correlation between bad healers and Earthgore. Slotting Earthgore does NOT make a person a healer, yet much of the playerbase apparently thinks so, even in trials.

(2) The set is defining healing in PvP and PvE. There is literally no reason to run any other set besides Bogdan. You can claim its because the other options are bad, or you can admit that the set is OP. Bogdan could be OP, but since it has a limited range and doesn't follow or proc on the player no matter what, it has its disadvantages which is why Earthgore is chosen over it every time.

(3) It's yet another proc set replacing player input. When sets start playing the game for you, what's the point of playing? Earthgore is not the only proc set I don't like, but it is the one I dislike the greatest.

(4) Faction stacks with Earthgore. I don't think this one needs to be explained, you can imagine it. If you've ever experienced it before you would know that its nearly impossible to do anything versus these groups and the set causes extreme lag. If you've experienced extreme lag on PC NA or PC EU, chances are it was caused by faction balls running this.

(5) The set solely decides engagements. The very definition of OP.

(6) No other set, 5 piece or 2-piece can actually compete with it or offers anything like it. None. Not Wyrd Tree, not Stendarr, not curse eater, none of the shielding sets can reduce damage equal to Earthgore in the same timeframe, none of the heal sets can output that much healing in the same timeframe, none can purify as well as Earthgore. Oh and Earthgore is AoE.

How anyone can think the set is fine, balanced, okay, or whatever you want to say to defend the crutch is something I can never understand. The fact that you need a set and apparently cannot live with it nerfed is only testament to how OP the set is in the first place!

f047ys3v3n

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

A screenshot was leaked a couple of weeks ago.

(1 item) Adds 4% Healing Done
(2 items) When you heal yourself or an ally under 50% health, you conjure a pool of quenching blood underneath them, immediately removing all previous enemy placed effects, and healing the lowest Health ally in the area for 31200 Health over 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 35 seconds.

You're welcome.

Not sure how I feel about this. The set is clearly OP currently and particularly toxic when whole groups of players use it in PVP to effectively counter ulti-bombs and siege with no active input on their part. I run it in a ton of situations on some very different builds which is a pretty good indication that it is out of balance.

On the other hand, I did like having healers running it in raids because sometimes it feels like ZOS has created such a mess of resource support and boss debuff stuff for healers to run that the actual heals part can be a bit short. Also, there are some crazy high unavoidable DOT's in raids and using efficient purge for all of them is just another ability to both slot, have to cast instead of a heal, and somehow be expected to actually afford with their crazy post morrowind resource situation.I am not a big fan of the healers needing to purge stuff in trials idea in general. Purging + debuffing boss + buffing players + casting synergies + healing + kiting mechanics is way too much but this is the situation in many trials. Earthgore was a nice support for this though clearly we have more of a bad mechanics design situation here than a good Earthgore scaling one.

Still, going to be sad and miss the set. I think the only thing I would use it for post change would be vMA which I have only run once, on an alt account, in the last 2 years.

EdoKeledus

As a PvP player, I don't understand why ZOS doesn"t change a set/skill effect thanks to Battle Spirit, I do believe it's the solution to all problems about PvP/PvE balance. We already have this kind of implementation in Battleground where Fiery Grip(Dk chain) has a limited range comapre to Cyrodiil/PvE-Zone for example.

Basically, ZOS must balance PvP and PvE separately.

Commancho

Why not change the size of area of effect instead of healing itself? Why make monster set from one of the most difficult (and dlc) dungeons utterly useless? Because you are too lazy to change the animation?

Commancho

Ehh double post

templesus

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

PVP whiners are the only people who like this change. And people who never play healers.

Nope, I just recently quit PvE raiding, as a healer main, have no death titles such as Immortal Redeemer and Tick-Tock Tormentor. The only time I ever used Earthgore was in vAS HM as the tank kiter. Other than that there are better options.

As someone who has been a passionate healer in this game since basically launch, I fully identify how unhealthy Earthgore is for the PvP aspect of the game; it absolutely needs a nerf.

Now if healers don't like being pigeon-holed into Bogdan, then ZoS needs to add variety, but that doesn't mean leaving an unhealthy set in the game running rampant.

Knows what they’re talking about ^

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Daus wrote: »

I guess healers will actually have to start using abilities again in PvE. Woe is me.

The healer who leaves teammates at sub 50% HP is the one who doesn't deserve to be the healer, full stop.
And those who do get bellow 50% probably are too far away from me to be healed, I am dead, and in either case Earthgore is useless.

Tbh I do not care less about Earthgore, but saying that healers do not use abilities is kinda trash talk.

Olupajmibanan

Depends on how will it work. It does 6 ticks. Let's say more players stand in the Earthgore AoE, who will get the ticks?

All 6 ticks will go on the player Earthgore procced on even though it will be overheal mostly?
Or is it a smart heal aoe hot? It does 1 tick on the lowest health ally, then it checks players in the AoE and does next tick on another player with the lowest health.

That's the question which will determine if Earthgore is still usable on PvE healer or not.

YamiKuruku

personally i don't like earthgore THAT much but i still have it as a base set next to bodgan and trollking but... tbh no healing monsterset is that overwhelming and earthgore was sometims helpful for oh *** moments or lamia boss in SO, guess we healers cant have some cool stuff without the pvp crowd crying

Olupajmibanan

YamiKuruku wrote: »

personally i don't like earthgore THAT much but i still have it as a base set next to bodgan and trollking but... tbh no healing monsterset is that overwhelming and earthgore was sometims helpful for oh *** moments or lamia boss in SO, guess we healers cant have some cool stuff without the pvp crowd crying

You are supposed to save the oh **** moment. Not some cheese set doing it for you without effort.

YamiKuruku

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

YamiKuruku wrote: »

personally i don't like earthgore THAT much but i still have it as a base set next to bodgan and trollking but... tbh no healing monsterset is that overwhelming and earthgore was sometims helpful for oh *** moments or lamia boss in SO, guess we healers cant have some cool stuff without the pvp crowd crying

You are supposed to save the oh **** moment. Not some cheese set doing it for you without effort.

yeah i know i barely use it anyways because i dont like it but others enjoy it i guess and i liked it first but now... well yeah, there are not many sets that buff so you either go symphony of blades that is useless in trials or go good ol' bodgan that spawns somewhere where it is not needed

Olupajmibanan

YamiKuruku wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

YamiKuruku wrote: »

personally i don't like earthgore THAT much but i still have it as a base set next to bodgan and trollking but... tbh no healing monsterset is that overwhelming and earthgore was sometims helpful for oh *** moments or lamia boss in SO, guess we healers cant have some cool stuff without the pvp crowd crying

You are supposed to save the oh **** moment. Not some cheese set doing it for you without effort.

yeah i know i barely use it anyways because i dont like it but others enjoy it i guess and i liked it first but now... well yeah, there are not many sets that buff so you either go symphony of blades that is useless in trials or go good ol' bodgan that spawns somewhere where it is not needed

Symphony is working pretty well in trials, especially when both tanks and healers wear it.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

are we not counting sentinel of rkugamz as a healing set? 9k+ health every 15 seconds.

Vicarra

1) Earthgore is not the only set being run by pvp healers. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one running it because even in large groups, mine is the only one proccing. Or maybe I'm just the only healer - sometimes feels like that, despite all the ZOS lip service around the shield nerf saying that they wanted to make healers relevant again.
2) Because the effects are red, most people (when it procs) run or roll dodge immediately out of it, rendering it sort of useless in terms of healing, but as a sorc I can use it as a replacement to purge.
3) Proc sets are almost a requirement in Sotha Sil due to the lack of CP, so having proc healing sets helps combat the proc damage sets where burst damage is added but otherwise can't be mitigated through stats.
4) People already don't like playing healers anymore, and nerfing healing sets isn't going to help that, especially in pvp. WTG though, whiners and crybaby NBs who don't like it when someone can survive their 2 button "I win" combos. You get what you want, yet again.
5) If ZOS is going to nerf Earthgore by essentially making the heals totally useless, then I want to see more proc healing monster sets in the game, because the ones already in the game are utter garbage for no-CP pvp.
6) This change only favours ball groups, spin-to-win/emp group noobs and lethal arrow spam noobs. Once again, we're heading back to the situation where templars are BIS and no other class will be accepted as a healer.

Most likely I'll just get over it and go back to being a pew pew DPS.

Alucardo

angelncelestine wrote: »

As a pve healer I am not really all that sad about hearing about this nerf. In a way I am sorta happy about it. All I see are groups with 3 dps, and a tank with EG. Imo the set just made healers even less needed.

Somebody who gets it. The set was overperforming to the point where it wasn't just healers wearing it.

But let's be honest, a heal to bring you back from the dead along with a purge of all negative effects.. this is still going to be strong in PvP. Who cares if it's single target now when multiple people will wear it for even more coverage.
Do you know what my idea of a perfect healer set would be? Something like Malubeth. Major Vitality mixed with Major/Minor Mending would give you all the healing power you need, but you'd actually have to lift a finger. It gives you the tools, but doesn't replace the skill. I want more of that, not this Earthgore nonsense.

Swiftfox_Bouncyface

Imagine not realising earthgore is stupid op in PvP and you don't need it in PvE

Alucardo

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

are we not counting sentinel of rkugamz as a healing set? 9k+ health every 15 seconds.

Very underrated set. I used to wear it when I healed so that the tank could regain stamina while blocking, and the heal wasn't bad either.
But the heal from this set is far less powerful than Earthgore. It will not save everybody's life, and the AOE is VERY small. You can barely fit two people in there. Not to mention the little spider guy can be bashed and destroyed easily.
A good example of a well designed set.

Olupajmibanan

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

are we not counting sentinel of rkugamz as a healing set? 9k+ health every 15 seconds.

Sentinel of Rkugamz is bugged atm. It procs under the set wearer instead of the healed target. This bug makes the set much less desirable than it could be.

Tasear

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

are we not counting sentinel of rkugamz as a healing set? 9k+ health every 15 seconds.

Sentinel of Rkugamz is bugged atm. It procs under the set wearer instead of the healed target. This bug makes the set much less desirable than it could be.

It will be next after earthgore once fixed. They will say it's to much healing and such. Then after all monster healing sets are fixed for solo PvP players the truth will come out they just don't want someone stopping their kill.