[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Jan 30, 2019

Toc de Malsvi

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Scattershot stun (bug fixed on the PTS, please report if this still has issues

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

Worst decision about Scattershot was increasing it's range. It was 20 meters...revert it back pls.
Same with destructive touch...these thing's nature likely to be defense oriented, with some requirements...
And, with current dodgeroll mechanics - it's almost impossible to dodge the instant attack like it (or Surprise attack or Incapacitating etc - you get them right in the middle of dodge animation, ridiculous)... u should fix dodgeroll.
About breakfree...ty ofc, this slowmotion trying of breakfree from it is very annoying.

TImestop - why it snares the target which is actually outside of it's animation?
Big issue - when someone casted it at the ground far from u but in the range of the final size of Bubble.
And u get slowed - sometimes without any signs why until it growed enouch in all aoes around.
Bad design. Fix this thing please.

Scattershot was 10m not 20m. Dropping it to 20m would be fine, dropping it to 10m would be garbage. It needed a range boost, it didn't need 28m.

Ragnarock41

Very happy with the racial rework, but I'm kinda worried about necromancer struggling or overperforming in PvP.

Knowing how much petsorcs struggle, I do hope necromancer comes in a state that is both enjoyable and balanced.(Also really curious to see how ZOS will handle the stamina builds for this class)

ZonasArch

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Very happy with the racial rework, but I'm kinda worried about necromancer struggling or overperforming in PvP.

Knowing how much petsorcs struggle, I do hope necromancer comes in a state that is both enjoyable and balanced.

Weird as it may be, I don't think necromancers will be restricted to raising the dead and using pets for fights. We'll probably have effective gameplay with possibly disease damage for more standard type of combat or even Oblivion damage, which would probably be on the overperforming side. I don't think it'll be a problem after the first few weeks when people learn how to use them and counter them. I'm excited for the gameplay novelty though.

Ragnarock41

ZonasArch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Very happy with the racial rework, but I'm kinda worried about necromancer struggling or overperforming in PvP.

Knowing how much petsorcs struggle, I do hope necromancer comes in a state that is both enjoyable and balanced.

Weird as it may be, I don't think necromancers will be restricted to raising the dead and using pets for fights. We'll probably have effective gameplay with possibly disease damage for more standard type of combat or even Oblivion damage, which would probably be on the overperforming side. I don't think it'll be a problem after the first few weeks when people learn how to use them and counter them. I'm excited for the gameplay novelty though.

Never really enjoyed my stamina warden(I was excited about the bear in PvP but we all know how that turned out). Warden is an overperforming, but boring abomination. Its the frankenstein of ESO, made up by stealing parts from Dk and templar. I expected it to be something like a druid from wow, but my high expectations made me especially salty about the end result.

For necromancer I expect disease dots and maybe low amounts of oblivion damage on tanking abilities. I have no clue how they'll handle this and I kinda feel like they're running out of ideas, but I'm still hyped for necro because well, how can I not be?

Savos_Saren

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Very happy with the racial rework, but I'm kinda worried about necromancer struggling or overperforming in PvP.

Knowing how much petsorcs struggle, I do hope necromancer comes in a state that is both enjoyable and balanced.

Weird as it may be, I don't think necromancers will be restricted to raising the dead and using pets for fights. We'll probably have effective gameplay with possibly disease damage for more standard type of combat or even Oblivion damage, which would probably be on the overperforming side. I don't think it'll be a problem after the first few weeks when people learn how to use them and counter them. I'm excited for the gameplay novelty though.

Never really enjoyed my stamina warden(I was excited about the bear in PvP but we all know how that turned out). Warden is an overperforming, but boring abomination. Its the frankenstein of ESO, made up by stealing parts from Dk and templar. I expected it to be something like a druid from wow, but my high expectations made me especially salty about the end result.

For necromancer I expect disease dots and maybe low amounts of oblivion damage on tanking abilities. I have no clue how they'll handle this and I kinda feel like they're running out of ideas, but I'm still hyped for necro because well, how can I not be?

Agreed. I love my snares and immobilizers (talons, gripping shards). When I saw that Necromancers had Bone Shards- I got excited. I can't wait to try tanking in PVP with a Necromancer. Hopefully, they have a class melee spammable, though. It looks as if the spammable (a skull attack) will be ranged like the Warden's birds.

Ragnarock41

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Very happy with the racial rework, but I'm kinda worried about necromancer struggling or overperforming in PvP.

Knowing how much petsorcs struggle, I do hope necromancer comes in a state that is both enjoyable and balanced.

Weird as it may be, I don't think necromancers will be restricted to raising the dead and using pets for fights. We'll probably have effective gameplay with possibly disease damage for more standard type of combat or even Oblivion damage, which would probably be on the overperforming side. I don't think it'll be a problem after the first few weeks when people learn how to use them and counter them. I'm excited for the gameplay novelty though.

Never really enjoyed my stamina warden(I was excited about the bear in PvP but we all know how that turned out). Warden is an overperforming, but boring abomination. Its the frankenstein of ESO, made up by stealing parts from Dk and templar. I expected it to be something like a druid from wow, but my high expectations made me especially salty about the end result.

For necromancer I expect disease dots and maybe low amounts of oblivion damage on tanking abilities. I have no clue how they'll handle this and I kinda feel like they're running out of ideas, but I'm still hyped for necro because well, how can I not be?

Agreed. I love my snares and immobilizers (talons, gripping shards). When I saw that Necromancers had Bone Shards- I got excited. I can't wait to try tanking in PVP with a Necromancer. Hopefully, they have a class melee spammable, though. It looks as if the spammable (a skull attack) will be ranged like the Warden's birds.

For the magicka version of the class I think a ranged spammable makes more sense, if it ever gets one. As for the stamina version, if this class also gets a spammable then we might aswell delete our stamDks and sorcs because its getting kinda ridicilous at this point.

As for the tanking aspect, and the new ultimate that turns you to skeletor from he-man, It reminds me of corrosive armor, but in a much more visually pleasing way. Strong ultimates should come with strong visual indicators.

Savos_Saren

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Very happy with the racial rework, but I'm kinda worried about necromancer struggling or overperforming in PvP.

Knowing how much petsorcs struggle, I do hope necromancer comes in a state that is both enjoyable and balanced.

Weird as it may be, I don't think necromancers will be restricted to raising the dead and using pets for fights. We'll probably have effective gameplay with possibly disease damage for more standard type of combat or even Oblivion damage, which would probably be on the overperforming side. I don't think it'll be a problem after the first few weeks when people learn how to use them and counter them. I'm excited for the gameplay novelty though.

Never really enjoyed my stamina warden(I was excited about the bear in PvP but we all know how that turned out). Warden is an overperforming, but boring abomination. Its the frankenstein of ESO, made up by stealing parts from Dk and templar. I expected it to be something like a druid from wow, but my high expectations made me especially salty about the end result.

For necromancer I expect disease dots and maybe low amounts of oblivion damage on tanking abilities. I have no clue how they'll handle this and I kinda feel like they're running out of ideas, but I'm still hyped for necro because well, how can I not be?

Agreed. I love my snares and immobilizers (talons, gripping shards). When I saw that Necromancers had Bone Shards- I got excited. I can't wait to try tanking in PVP with a Necromancer. Hopefully, they have a class melee spammable, though. It looks as if the spammable (a skull attack) will be ranged like the Warden's birds.

For the magicka version of the class I think a ranged spammable makes more sense, if it ever gets one. As for the stamina version, if this class also gets a spammable then we might aswell delete our stamDks and sorcs because its getting kinda ridicilous at this point.

As for the tanking aspect, and the new ultimate that turns you to skeletor from he-man, It reminds me of corrosive armor, but in a much more visually pleasing way. Strong ultimates should come with strong visual indicators.

Hell, ZOS could share the love. Give the magic melee spammable Major Breach (a la StamBlade) and give the stamina melee spammable a heal proc (a la mDK).

Ragnarock41

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Very happy with the racial rework, but I'm kinda worried about necromancer struggling or overperforming in PvP.

Knowing how much petsorcs struggle, I do hope necromancer comes in a state that is both enjoyable and balanced.

Weird as it may be, I don't think necromancers will be restricted to raising the dead and using pets for fights. We'll probably have effective gameplay with possibly disease damage for more standard type of combat or even Oblivion damage, which would probably be on the overperforming side. I don't think it'll be a problem after the first few weeks when people learn how to use them and counter them. I'm excited for the gameplay novelty though.

Never really enjoyed my stamina warden(I was excited about the bear in PvP but we all know how that turned out). Warden is an overperforming, but boring abomination. Its the frankenstein of ESO, made up by stealing parts from Dk and templar. I expected it to be something like a druid from wow, but my high expectations made me especially salty about the end result.

For necromancer I expect disease dots and maybe low amounts of oblivion damage on tanking abilities. I have no clue how they'll handle this and I kinda feel like they're running out of ideas, but I'm still hyped for necro because well, how can I not be?

Agreed. I love my snares and immobilizers (talons, gripping shards). When I saw that Necromancers had Bone Shards- I got excited. I can't wait to try tanking in PVP with a Necromancer. Hopefully, they have a class melee spammable, though. It looks as if the spammable (a skull attack) will be ranged like the Warden's birds.

For the magicka version of the class I think a ranged spammable makes more sense, if it ever gets one. As for the stamina version, if this class also gets a spammable then we might aswell delete our stamDks and sorcs because its getting kinda ridicilous at this point.

As for the tanking aspect, and the new ultimate that turns you to skeletor from he-man, It reminds me of corrosive armor, but in a much more visually pleasing way. Strong ultimates should come with strong visual indicators.

Hell, ZOS could share the love. Give the magic melee spammable Major Breach (a la StamBlade) and give the stamina melee spammable a heal proc (a la mDK).

In all honesty I just want weapon abilities to be great again. A class doesn't need a good spammable to be viable, look at stamden.

Eiron77

Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

• Bosmer "stealth" racial should not be a highly situational, niche only ability

Creating other avenues for stealth gameplay outside of race is a great and much needed step. The changes OUTSIDE OF RACE needs to be the niche uses like, stealth detection. Come on, you just have to know how useless a 3m stealth detection really is... usually by the time they're 3m of me it's pretty much too late. In the very rare instances I actually do pvp (and that's only to get skyshards..)

• Is not lore-friendly of the Bosmer

As many, many players have mentioned on these forums the anti-stealth idea is not in line with the Bosmer lore or past TES games. Anti-stealth detection is more akin to being a guard or lawman than a wood elf. Most Bosmer players picked the race to be better thieves, not law-abiding to the laws of the other races.

• You've destroyed Bosmer stealth identity and nullified it as equal to all other races, except the cat people

Most of your current Bosmer players chose Wood Elf specifically for the stealth racial benefits. You will have a lot of pissed off wood elves if these changes go live. And, I'm not a cat person. I won't make a catman.

• No. Hunter's Eye is not a "nice" combat buff. Don't patronize us.

It is an uninspired, copy/paste of Hasty Retreat--ok, now it's even worse with some added useless Penetration because I'm already capped out on Penetration. Oh wait, I can go 1.5k below the cap for those rare occasions I will spend 3.6k stamina to get 3s of me at the cap... do you see the problem yet? I have to spend 3.6k stamina to benefit from my racial for pitiful speed boost and pitiful extra stabby-jabby.



Here is how you fix Hunter's Eye to actually match your original intent as quoted in the v4.3.0 patch notes:


"Previously, if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve reworked this passive. Since Wood Elves are natural born hunters, we gave them a unique movement speed boost [../s] so they could hunt their targets better, or reposition to a more favorable position. ..........Additionally, since the Khajiiti race deals much with adeptness for the shadows, we’ve repurposed the Stealthy passive to be an anti-stealth one = blah, blah, blah, we'll all hate you intensely--as only wood elves can--if you proceed with this!"

Hunter's Eye:

• Natural born hunters: Reduce detection radius while in stealth by 3m.
  This is because hunter's stealth. Because they're hunting for prey! Not other hunters who will be in stealth. We--the players--don't really care if it's the same as Khajits, but if you REALLY want racials to be different then:
  - (Optional Replacement)Hunt/Pursue their targets better: Increased speed while in stealth by %. Or, time required to activate stealth reduced by 50%.
  - If none of those options are satisfactory, then give us the other half of the Stealthy racial the Khajits don't get. Give us back our increased damage while in stealth. Being anti-stealth is not why any of us picked to play Bosmer. The stealth detection increase is not wanted, as far as I can see in these forums.
  
• If you weren't able to utilize stealth, you lost effectiveness: Increased damage and healing from criticals.
  Because hunter's know where to hit their prey and how to hit it hard. This also means they know the critical areas to look for when tending wounds. It's not the greatest passive but this benefits nearly every class (in PvE and PvP too!!), which is your main point--right?
  
• Hunt their targets better and/or reposition quickly: Using Roll Dodge costs no stamina (or 50% stamina) and you gain % movement speed for #s. This ability has an internal cooldown of 15/18s.
  While I am vehemently opposed to my racial being tied to Roll Dodge, I can compromise on this reiteration because:
  - It doesn't cost massive stamina to obtain the benefit.
  - The reduced cost of the first roll dodge helps it feel more like a natural decision rather than a costly, resource-intensive decision.
  - The internal cooldown prevents abuse of the speed boost and reduced stamina cost.

Uryel

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

Seems to me that ZOS has NOT heard some concerns.

Most people worried about Bosmer changes are not worried about losing the damage bonus from stealth or speed bonus or anything. Most of us don't even care about that. What we care about is Stealth, and stealth only.

It's pretty good that there will be a way to reamain stealthy even without racial passive. It better be as good as the current passive, though, else it's worthless. But really, "hey, look, the stealthiest race in the lore will now be as stealthy as any non-cat race" isn't a good way to sell it. Can't complain on stealth becoming more available to everyone, though

Now, the real problem with Bosmer changes is that they lose a lore-friendly and useful bonus, stealth, for a completely, utterly useless bonus, stealth detection.

Why do I call it useless ? Mostly for 2 reasons :

- From the dev team's own words, stealth isn't a universal mechanic. There are ZERO stealthy enemies in the game besides players. Thus it has zero use in PvE.

- It has only a very marginal use in PvP. There is already Magelight for that, and it's WAY better in terms of radius or effective protection against ganking. If I can detect someone at 3 meters only, they already have the drop on me. One of Magelight's morph offers 12 meters and damage reduction from stealthed attacks, now THAT is something worth using if you care about PvP and stealth detection.


People complained about sneaky Bosmer snipers ? Well, they will complain about sneaky Khajiit snipers, but that's not the problem here. Assuming a sneaky Bosmer sniper doesn't change to Khajiit, you'll have even more trouble with them, as they will see you coming from even further and will just need to dodge roll to evade you.

While +3m detection is useless in PvE, +3m stealth is on the other hand a great bonus. While stealth has no use in highly competitive content, it does have use for the vast majority of us, the players who don't really care about Cyrodiil and trials. Some of us play thieves, and we do have 2 DLC that revolve around stealth. We do pick pockets. We sneak into delves to hit the boss and the boss only. As the Bosmer culture would have it, there are 1000 benefits for hiding.

Stealth is useful in PvE, just not in highly competitive stuff. Stealth detection has zero use in PvE. We don't mind the speed buff, the damage loss from sneak, the whatever. We do mind losing a useful bonus and trading it for a useless one.

Now, as I said above, if we do keep a way to be stealthy, and stealth becomes open to more people, it's not so bad. If, and only if, it's good enough. But it's STILL a betrayal of Bosmer identity, and a removal of why the race was picked in the first place.

Uryel

Eiron77 wrote: »

Come on, you just have to know how useless a 3m stealth detection really is... usually by the time they're 3m of me it's pretty much too late.

This. Detecting someone at 3 meters is useless. While on the other hand, having +3m stealth bonus, not stealth detection, makes a HUGE difference in one's ability to go past the guards, to pick pockets, to pick lockboxes, to run through a whole delve fighting only the boss... Stealth is amazing, stealth detection isn't.

Deathlord92

Uryel wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

Seems to me that ZOS has NOT heard some concerns.

Most people worried about Bosmer changes are not worried about losing the damage bonus from stealth or speed bonus or anything. Most of us don't even care about that. What we care about is Stealth, and stealth only.

It's pretty good that there will be a way to reamain stealthy even without racial passive. It better be as good as the current passive, though, else it's worthless. But really, "hey, look, the stealthiest race in the lore will now be as stealthy as any non-cat race" isn't a good way to sale it. Can't complain on stealth becoming more available to everyone, though

Now, the real problem with Bosmer changes is that they lose a lore-friendly and useful bonus, stealth, for a completely, utterly useless bonus, stealth detection.

Why do I call it useless ? Mostly for 2 reasons :

- From the dev team's own words, stealth isn't a universal mechanic. There are ZERO stealthy enemies in the game besides players. Thus it has zero use in PvE.

- It has only a very marginal use in PvP. There is already Magelight for that, and it's WAY better in terms of radius or effective protection against ganking. If I can detect someone at 3 meters only, they already have the drop on me. One of Magelight's morph ofers 12 meters and damage reduction from stealthed attacks, now THAT is something worth using if you care about PvP and stealth detection.


People complained about sneaky Bosmer snipers ? Well, they will complain about sneaky Khajiit snipers, but that's not the problem here. Assuming a sneaky Bosmer sniper doesn't change to Khajiit, you'll have even more trouble with them, as they will see you coming from even further and will just need to dodge roll to evade you.

While +3m detection is useless in PvE, +3m stealth is on the other hand a great bonus. While stealth has no use in highly competitive content, it does have use for the vast majority of us, the players who don't really care about Cyrodiil and trials. Some of us play thieves, and we do have 2 DLC that revolve around stealth. We do pick pockets. We sneak into delves to hit the boss and the boss only. As the Bosmer culture would have it, tehre are 1000 benefits for hiding.

Stealth is useful in PvE, just not in highly competitive stuff. Stealth detection has zero use in PvE. We don't mind the speed buff, the damage loss from sneak, the whatever. We do mind losing a useful bonus and trading it for a useless one.

Now, as I said above, if we do keep a way to be stealthy, and stealth becomes open to more people, it's not so bad. If, and only if, it's good enough. But it's STILL a betrayal of Bosmer identity, and a removal of why the race was picked in the first place.

My Breton stamblade and thief and a assassin I can tell u I do it fine with out stealth passives tho I love the idea of getting my hands on stealth passive for my Breton 🙂

FrancisCrawford

Deathlord92 wrote: »

My Breton stamblade and thief and a assassin I can tell u I do it fine with out stealth passives tho I love the idea of getting my hands on stealth passive for my Breton 🙂

Is that character a vampire?

BlueRaven

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

Hey everyone! Don't worry, they will fix it later! (Based on the rather dismissive way this is being handled, I am sure they will get right on it. /sarcasm)

So when is this supposed to happen? How many years before bosmers get their stealth back? Which will come first, this or spell crafting?

Are they going to hide this behind some awful "thieves guild" type quest line? Or are they going to make it a PvP thing since all of these changes are for PvP anyway. Or maybe; "Buy this new chapter and we will restore the stealth you were supposed to have!"

I can hardly contain my excitement. (Also /sarcasm)

Why do Bosmers have to wait for this? Why don't you leave stealth in until you actually have a plan for this?

Deathlord92

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

My Breton stamblade and thief and a assassin I can tell u I do it fine with out stealth passives tho I love the idea of getting my hands on stealth passive for my Breton 🙂

Is that character a vampire?

Yes 🙂

Uryel

Deathlord92 wrote: »

My Breton stamblade and thief and a assassin I can tell u I do it fine with out stealth passives tho I love the idea of getting my hands on stealth passive for my Breton 🙂

My wife plays a Breton Nightblade and I play a Bosmer Nightblade. We generally play together, so it was very easy to test the usefulness of a stealth bonus. To put it simply, in many situations where I am not caught with my Bosmer, she is. I can sneak in places she can't. When we're both sneaking and coming a little too close of an enemy, she's the one detected, not me. It's fairly easy to test : we are both unseen, I step closer, nothing happens, she steps closer, we're caught. And gear is a non factor here as we run the same equipment. I do get caught, too, sometimes. But she gets caught way more.

You can stealth without the bonus. You just can't do it as well. There are situations where your stealth will not be good enough. A character with stealth bonus and stealth-related equipment will be close to invisible. The tradeoff is that it's slightly less powerfull in combat, but that's a gameplay choice. You trade combat power for the ability to move way more freely in enemy-infested areas and go wherever you pretty damn please.

If the removal of stealth effectively happens and we don't have any other way to retain stealth bonus, then it means the need to further specialise in stealth, and we'll still underperform.

As I mentionned elsewhere, currently for a Bosmer or Khajiit, you can have a +3m bonus from the racial, +2m from gear, +2 other meters from gear, or +2 m and no movement penalty from gear. Currently my Bosmer has +2m and no movement penalty from gear, meaning her total bonus is +5m, and she can move freely. Another option would be being a vampire or using Concealed Weapon, but both are way more coherent with magicka builds than stamina ones. Plus, the vampire has a specific aesthetics that isn't appealing to everyone. I personnaly would say that a stage 4 vampire looks like they fell from the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down.

If the update goes live, the maximum possible bonus will be +4m and the only way to remove the movement penalty will be using a magicka skill in a stamina build, effectively gimping the damage dealing even further, or being a vampire at stage 4 all the time and dealing with a peculiar appearance.

While a difference of 1 meter may not look like much, it is a tremendous difference in tight corridors, when picking a merchant's lockbox or whatever. And that difference of only 1 meter means an all-out specialization in stealth gear, without the possibility to retain free movement unless you replace one of the most potent skill the stamblade has or, again, becoming a vampire.

And well, Concealed Weapon is only a possibility for Nightblades. Not all sneaky characters are Nightblades. There could be a sneaky Bosmer Warden, for instance. Or pretty much anything. People who play non-Nightblade stealthy Bosmers will be left with ONLY the solution of becoming a vampire.

So, I'm fine with a way to retain that +3m bonus. ANY way to retain it, and it's actually even better, gameplay-wise, if it becomes available to everyone. Lore-wise, it's an insult to the Bosmers, but hey, one make do with what one has. However, any half-arsed stealth bonus that provides anything less than +3m bonus is adding insult to injury. Anything more isn't needed either, it would simply make stealth so easy that any stealth equipment would be overkill. +3m non factoring set bonuses is really great as it makes stealth rewarding but not entirely riskless. Any which way we get to retain that +3m bonus, I'm fine with, if it's available at the same time as the removal of stealth.

Of course, a much simpler way to do it would be to leave that racial passive untouched. But then, that wouldn't open more stealth opportunities for other characters... So I'm divided there. Still, stealth is love, stealth is life, stealth detection has no use whatsoever, and I'm not spending one more cent on ESO until I know for sure that I can still play my thief as she was meant to be and has been played for over 3 years now.

Uryel

BlueRaven wrote: »

Or are they going to make it a PvP thing since all of these changes are for PvP anyway.

Allright, I stand corrected. "Any way to retain stealth" isn't fine by me. Any way but this way. I don't PvP, ever. If we need to rank whatever rank in alliance war to get stealth back, then it's a good as not giving us any way to retain it.

Stealth isn't a PvP only mechanic, and should not be treated as one. Ever.

Deathlord92

Uryel wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

My Breton stamblade and thief and a assassin I can tell u I do it fine with out stealth passives tho I love the idea of getting my hands on stealth passive for my Breton 🙂

My wife plays a Breton Nightblade and I play a Bosmer Nightblade. We generally play together, so it was very easy to test the usefulness of a stealth bonus. To put it simply, in many situations where I am not caught with my Bosmer, she is. I can sneak in places she can't. When we're both sneaking and coming a little too close of an enemy, she's the one detected, not me. It's fairly easy to test : we are both unseen, I step closer, nothing happens, she steps closer, we're caught. And gear is a non factor here as we run the same equipment. I do get caught, too, sometimes. But she gets caught way more.

You can stealth without the bonus. You just can't do it as well. There are situations where your stealth will not be good enough. A character with stealth bonus and stealth-related equipment will be close to invisible. The tradeoff is that it's slightly less powerfull in combat, but that's a gameplay choice. You trade combat power for the ability to move way more freely in enemy-infested areas and go wherever you pretty damn please.

If the removal of stealth effectively happens and we don't have any other way to retain stealth bonus, then it means the need to further specialise in stealth, and we'll still underperform.

As I mentionned elsewhere, currently for a Bosmer or Khajiit, you can have a +3m bonus from the racial, +2m from gear, +2 other meters from gear, or +2 m and no movement penalty from gear. Currently my Bosmer has +2m and no movement penalty from gear, meaning her total bonus is +5m, and she can move freely. Another option would be being a vampire or using Concealed Weapon, but both are way more coherent with magicka builds than stamina ones. Plus, the vampire has a specific aesthetics that isn't appealing to everyone. I personnaly would say that a stage 4 vampire looks like they fell from the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down.

If the update goes live, the maximum possible bonus will be +4m and the only way to remove the movement penalty will be using a magicka skill in a stamina build, effectively gimping the damage dealing even further, or being a vampire at stage 4 all the time and dealing with a peculiar appearance.

While a difference of 1 meter may not look like much, it is a tremendous difference in tight corridors, when picking a merchant's lockbox or whatever. And that difference of only 1 meter means an all-out specialization in stealth gear, without the possibility to retain free movement unless you replace one of the most potent skill the stamblade has or, again, becoming a vampire.

And well, Concealed Weapon is only a possibility for Nightblades. Not all sneaky characters are Nightblades. There could be a sneaky Bosmer Warden, for instance. Or pretty much anything. People who play non-Nightblade stealthy Bosmers will be left with ONLY the solution of becoming a vampire.

So, I'm fine with a way to retain that +3m bonus. ANY way to retain it, and it's actually even better, gameplay-wise, if it becomes available to everyone. Lore-wise, it's an insult to the Bosmers, but hey, one make do with what one has. However, any half-arsed stealth bonus that provides anything less than +3m bonus is adding insult to injury. Anything more isn't needed either, it would simply make stealth so easy that any stealth equipment would be overkill. +3m non factoring set bonuses is really great as it makes stealth rewarding but not entirely riskless. Any which way we get to retain that +3m bonus, I'm fine with, if it's available at the same time as the removal of stealth.

Of course, a much simpler way to do it would be to leave that racial passive untouched. But then, that wouldn't open more stealth opportunities for other characters... So I'm divided there. Still, stealth is love, stealth is life, stealth detection has no use whatsoever, and I'm not spending one more cent on ESO until I know for sure that I can still play my thief as she was meant to be and has been played for over 3 years now.

Well my Breton stamblade all I play since console release and Breton cutthroat all played in oblivion and skyrim and still playing Skyrim remastered along side eso and personnely I love the idea of having stealth passives but I also understand why u upset about losing it it be weird to me if Breton lost spell resistance for example

Nord_Raseri

people want nords nerfed? 8 out of 11 of my characters are nords. you know, almost bottom of the barrel nords. if anything they need buffed, not nerfed.

Nord_Raseri

IronWooshu wrote: »

I dont understand at all....

Damage modifiers on races will always be more important than tanking or healing passive's since DPS players want to squeeze every bit of damage possible out while ANY race can pick up a sword and shield and tank with ease.

Nord has no damage, they are at the bottom of the damage tree in Stamina and Magicka yet a racial that generates ultimate only when taking damage is potentially broken? If anything as a tank, I am not always taking damage so I might not even get the full effect of the passive to begin with. As stated like Alcast mentioned, if we are to hold our war horn than the passive once again makes no difference to any other race. What if my trial group wants to run multiple war horns one after the other, unless everyone is Nord the one Nord tank is going to have to hold off and wait or there may be a gap in War Horn uptime.

Yet Nord is what you're worried about? Not Redguard who can permanently block with their crazy OP sustain and will become BiS for tanks and if that happens what does Nord really have going for them? Worst DPS, 2nd or 3rd best tank, maybe last depending on Imperials changes. Worst healers with no sustain, no sustain for any role really.

1k health? 500 more than Orc and Dark Elf who have crazy damage to go with them.

We are going right back to where we are now, weak options all around. I am pretty sure Alcast is the only rep that likes Nord. They seem very underrepresented on these boards and even in game.

It's sad really and top DPS races are getting more buffs to their DPS.

Help me understand?

TL/DR: Nord is already the last choice for DPS end game which means we are being forced into a tank role (the opposite of what you wanted with every race for any role) they have no sustain for healers but if the ult makes them BiS healers that really takes the "big tough nord" image out of whack and really hurts my pride with my Nord being reduced to a heal bot (my least favorite role). The more you scale other races damage, the further Nord falls down to only one option tank and if we can't even be best at that we are reduced to pure end game healers.

How is that balance? I bet currently on live 0.01% of Nord players rolled a Nord to heal.

@Joy_Division @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

I second, third, fourth, and fifth all of the above. please, ZOS, throw us Nords a bone...

GrumpyDuckling

Class Reps: Please Bring up the Following in Your Next Meeting

Access to Major Brutality and Major Sorcery in the Nightblade class has conditions that restrict the class' combat options. The conditions for access to Major Brutality and Major Sorcery from the class (through Drain Power and its morphs) require:

1) melee range
2) an enemy
3) for the player to already be in combat (meaning that neither buff can be acquired through class means before a stealth attack is performed)

These conditions are limiting ranged builds and are not syncing up with some of the passives and skills in the class' toolkit that encourage players to attack from stealth. It would be nice to see access to these buffs synergize better with the class' toolkit (similar to the way that Templar's Piercing Javelin was changed to a knockdown instead of a knockback, which allowed it to better work with some of the other skills in the class' toolkit).

Thank you.

Strider__Roshin

Nords are relatively worse in this upcoming patch than they were before. As it stands currently I'm changing my Nord to an Orc. Which is a shame because I've always played as a Nord, but the handicap is about to be too severe to tolerate.

BlueRaven

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Class Reps: Please Bring up the Following in Your Next Meeting

Access to Major Brutality and Major Sorcery in the Nightblade class has conditions that restrict the class' combat options. The conditions for access to Major Brutality and Major Sorcery from the class (through Drain Power and its morphs) require:

1) melee range
2) an enemy
3) for the player to already be in combat (meaning that neither buff can be acquired through class means before a stealth attack is performed)

These conditions are limiting ranged builds and are not syncing up with some of the passives and skills in the class' toolkit that encourage players to attack from stealth. It would be nice to see access to these buffs synergize better with the class' toolkit (similar to the way that Templar's Piercing Javelin was changed to a knockdown instead of a knockback, which allowed it to better work with some of the other skills in the class' toolkit).

Thank you.

When is/was the next meeting? Will we see an update today?

GrumpyDuckling

BlueRaven wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Class Reps: Please Bring up the Following in Your Next Meeting

Access to Major Brutality and Major Sorcery in the Nightblade class has conditions that restrict the class' combat options. The conditions for access to Major Brutality and Major Sorcery from the class (through Drain Power and its morphs) require:

1) melee range
2) an enemy
3) for the player to already be in combat (meaning that neither buff can be acquired through class means before a stealth attack is performed)

These conditions are limiting ranged builds and are not syncing up with some of the passives and skills in the class' toolkit that encourage players to attack from stealth. It would be nice to see access to these buffs synergize better with the class' toolkit (similar to the way that Templar's Piercing Javelin was changed to a knockdown instead of a knockback, which allowed it to better work with some of the other skills in the class' toolkit).

Thank you.

When is/was the next meeting? Will we see an update today?

I can't speak to when the next meeting is, but the first post of this thread (near the top of the post) states that the class reps were invited to test necromancer. That appears to be sometime soon, and I do not know if that means a meeting is also scheduled.

Jabbs_Giggity

amir412 wrote: »

Do not nerf Fury/Legion, they are good as it is.
Create a few good weapon damage medium armor sets that provide slightly less weapon dmg.
That way med armor will still have more weapon damage with the passive.

I think the point is that with the current heavy armor meta, heavy armor sets should not provide "more" overall dps than medium armor. Don't get me wrong, I rock heavy armor too but it has no drawbacks.
Heavy armor should not have it all...damage, sustain, healing, defense, resistances, etc.

Mayrael

Ok Oblivion damage is to good but bleeds are not? #Logic

SkysOutThizeOut

@Mayrael you still have to build damage for bleeds to be effective. Oblivion you can build straight tank/sustain. Most bleed builds are in heavy armor.... and like poster above you mentioned you get it all in heavy. Reduce the effectiveness of damage in heavy and the bleed builds will also be negatively impacted. They’ve also applied a 14% damage reduction to axe bleeds.

Mayrael

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Mayrael you still have to build damage for bleeds to be effective. Oblivion you can build straight tank/sustain. Most bleed builds are in heavy armor.... and like poster above you mentioned you get it all in heavy. Reduce the effectiveness of damage in heavy and the bleed builds will also be negatively impacted. They’ve also applied a 14% damage reduction to axe bleeds.

They have applied 12% nerf that's one. They have added effect to currently existing set that buffs all dots by 14% that's two. I'm not defending oblivion damage but it's far more balanced than bleeds because oblivion damage is heavily controlled, you can't buff it's damage in any way while bleeds can be brought to 1,5-2k per tick and that's before crit (oblivion can't crit). My main concern is that bleeds are to universal (doesn't matter who is your target, heavy, medium, light, no armor), easy to sustain tactic. Bleeds need counters.

SilverPaws

Khajiit changes are absolute failure.

Ysbriel

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

people want nords nerfed? 8 out of 11 of my characters are nords. you know, almost bottom of the barrel nords. if anything they need buffed, not nerfed.

I never understood why people are against Nords when the it comes to the Buff/Fix topic. So far from all the builds i've seen the only Build maker that actually uses Nords as the race of choice is KristoferESO and those builds rely on stacking the most out of one particular resource. The only reason i have a Nord is just because since i first played TES4 Nords, Dunmers, Khajiits and Bretons have always been the 4 races i always build around. Nord = average in this game