[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Jan 30, 2019

KenaPKK

Dracane wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Is this maybe a new form of racism against Altmers?

Of course. Because all the Dragonknights enraged and complained how poor Dunmer is now.
In return, there is nobody left to defend Altmer, because there are no Sorcerers anymore.

Look, I understand that Dunmer lost a part of their identity. They should have been given flame damage instead. But giving them the same magicka and spell damage as Altmer, is unheard of.

Technically all of these changes are unheard of, seeing as this is the first broad racial rebalance in...ever as far as I know.

And Altmer has the Class Reps and many avid sorc players defending it, but the complaint that it carried both the highest damage *and* decent sustain is a valid one. It needs to be distinguished a bit more from Breton if Breton is intended to be "the magicka sustain race." ZOS hasn't decided what they intend to do with it yet.

KenaPKK

Kikke wrote: »

Buffing Dunmers, when they already have the mosts pure stats of all the races. Amazing.
Buffing Argonians, So they will be the same as live. no change... lol.
Nerfing everything that people was hyped for...
Leave those races people yelled was OP (looking at you Redguard)

We trying to make a new NerfDire Situation it seems. We did not have enough players leave during this period, we gotta do the same again. Mindlessly nerfing and buffing were it does not make sense.

Don't discount the value of passives which give sustain or utility. Just because Dunmer has a lot of raw stats doesn't mean it's competing quite where the team wants.

And the team has not decided by how much they may buff Argonian, if at all, but jumping to assume that they're reverting them to live values is a bit hyperbolic.

Dracane

KenaPKK wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Is this maybe a new form of racism against Altmers?

Of course. Because all the Dragonknights enraged and complained how poor Dunmer is now.
In return, there is nobody left to defend Altmer, because there are no Sorcerers anymore.

Look, I understand that Dunmer lost a part of their identity. They should have been given flame damage instead. But giving them the same magicka and spell damage as Altmer, is unheard of.

Technically all of these changes are unheard of, seeing as this is the first broad racial rebalance in...ever as far as I know.

And Altmer has the Class Reps and many avid sorc players defending it, but the complaint that it carried both the highest damage *and* decent sustain is a valid one. It needs to be distinguished a bit more from Breton if Breton is intended to be "the magicka sustain race." ZOS hasn't decided what they intend to do with it yet.

I understand.

Hm, but what could they possibly do ? Appearently a sustain passive is not an option, neither is another damage passive, because Dunmer will loose their crown again.

So where is Altmer supposed to fit ? They really want to take all sustain from Altmer ?
Now that Dunmer has the same damage as Altmer, plus stamina, plus a bit health and fire resistance; is there any reason to pick Altmer ? I feel like they need a reasonable addition to justify their position.

Roboplus

You're efforts are appreciated. However-

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Basically if something has been identified as a pain point that has not been addressed yet, it was repeated. Also, and this is important, we planned to have another meeting with the Devs right after the PTS to get into nitty gritty about classes. In short, even if your class concerns aren’t going to show up on the PTS, they absolutely will get communicated in detail long before ZOS puts up the PTS for Elsweyr. Hang in there.

I've yet to see NB tanks mentioned in any of these posts.

Gonna go ahead and not believe you.

forumsmurf

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

I highly suggest you channel your frustrations into useful suggestions that can make PvP playable while being stuck in combat as ZOS indicated that is something that they can do.

Just revert the change where you stopped gear and skill swapping in combat.

twitch_zero

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

PVP stuff

Stuck in Combat: Unfortunately while ZOS has engineers working on this issue, it’s there and it’s going to be there until they get a handle on the issue. This prompted frustration and contention. ZOS made it clear they do not want to implement “band-aid” fixes and that the in-combat state was a core feature necessary for numerous combat systems. They indicated that they suffer the same bug and are also frustrated with it.

After some pressing, it became clear that getting passionate over the issue is not going to alleviate the situation, fix the bug, or prompt useful discussion. That being said, there are some things that ZOS indicated they are agreeable with to make it such that this super frustrating bug isn’t so destructive. One thing they specifically mentioned was they saw no reason why being in combat ought to prevent the use of the transitus wayshrines. Another possibility that perhaps can be explored is at least being able to change quickslots.

FWIW my feedback is making both transitus and quickslots immune to being in combat would alleviate much of my frustration, and is acceptable as an interim measure.

Dreyloch

@Joy_Division

Combat bug also does not let us mount. (in case we're not near a wayshrine). Please forward that to the Devs. Been stuck in combat in distant enemy territory plenty of times where I had to run 1/2 way across the map to even get to a useable shrine. Also, we can't use recall stones while bug is present. Thanks!

EDIT: Oh, no mention of lag relief? Other than removing I.C.? Would be interesting to actually hear what makes I.C. cause lag in "technical" terms.I realize it's not coming this update. But would be cool to know.

Lord-Otto

So, in-combat bug:
ZOS hate it. The players hate it. Why isn't the mechanic behind it removed then? The bug appeared after ZOS implemented not being able to switch skills in combat - WHICH NO ONE ASKED FOR. It now causes huge problems, more than the previous system, can't be repaired and frustrates EVERYONE. Then why not just roll back? ZOS not willing to roll back wrong decisions has been a well-known weak point in the game's development for years. It can't get much clearer than this, can it?
So, unless I'm missing technical knoqledge here (please correct me then), just bite the apple and go back!

Snipe. Finally acknowledgement. Which is good. REALLY GOOD. Two things though:
Why now? Been a problem for years. Anything change ZOS' opinions on the skill? But, better late than never, and I'm happy it's being dealt with.
Why didn't ZOS tell us? There's a forum here. And while I'm only one person, I specifically asked ZOS for notion. Would have anyone broken his arm typing a quick "looking into it"? Some scraps of communication can go a long way, I think. Or, I'm wrong and this development came only to be after being pressured by the reps. In which case I thank them. And am more confused as to why it was ignored until now.

Hm. I realized how a couple pieces of the puzzle are still missing. Communication is not perfect yet. But this here is a BIG step forward, so I do applaud it! Well done!

Also, youuu caaan't really gut Altmer (sorc) sustain any more. And giving health or stam bonus racial wouldn't make sense lore- and just flair-wise. Altmer are the most destructive mages, so why not increase spell damage further? If you give them enough damage to make sustain food viable (and necessary) without dps loss, it would balance each other out.

Rake

"Altmer will be strongest magicka DD" - ok for reps and zos
"Redguard will be best in sustain for stamina" - ok for reps and zos
"Breton will be best for sustain for magicka" - ok for reps and zos
"Nord is op for 0.5 ultimate per second, need to be nerfed or all tanks will be Nords" - LOL
So nerfing race that was worst for 4+ years, while buffing poor imperials and removing nerfs from best tanks on live - Argonians.

All that because top 1% of PvE community will run nords as tanks.
Feels unfair to players that run Nords.

On the other hand, cant wait to see Dunmer changes.

SaintSubwayy

@ZOS_GinaBruno the Orc changes you mentioned will throw Orc DPS for Stamina out the window again. The sustain Passive brought them into a sweetspot for DPS, with good WD and deent sustain, but at the Cost of Max Stam

Chaneing brawler to restore health will knock orcs down for a PVE DD option, to probably become the new Nord, in beeing the least favourite race then.
The healing is nice for PVP, but its insignificant in PVE, and will cause orcs to have the same bad sustain as Dunmer has now on PTS, while providing the (ATM) same WD bonis, without the max stamina Dunmer has...makeing it overall the little Brother of dunmer if this change will go live as it stands now.

ZonasArch

Roboplus wrote: »

You're efforts are appreciated. However-

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Basically if something has been identified as a pain point that has not been addressed yet, it was repeated. Also, and this is important, we planned to have another meeting with the Devs right after the PTS to get into nitty gritty about classes. In short, even if your class concerns aren’t going to show up on the PTS, they absolutely will get communicated in detail long before ZOS puts up the PTS for Elsweyr. Hang in there.

I've yet to see NB tanks mentioned in any of these posts.

Gonna go ahead and not believe you.

They stated classes is planned for 22. It's in the notes.

josh.lackey_ESO

Bosmer speed on roll dodge needs to go away entirely, or at least be non-stacking with Expedition. We don't need more buffs to roly-poly cloakers with crazy fast mood speed. Because I can guarantee you they are gonna snipe and run: it's the worst fight in the game and has been for a long time.

macsmooth

Ok I will say it I’m surprised at the positives in the update and there in a good direction to

Racial improvements is nice can’t argue over them as they all look positive but will have to play them to know, imperial needed something other than holding block all the time but I’m console so we only ever get the end product

The visiting old sets is a good thing to as so many are a waste but please don’t tell me tormentor set was in that nda and they going to make it work with werewolves because I just decon all the gear I had because of this useless mechanic, but visiting older gear to make more relevant in today’s eso it could open doors to new gear options for a variety of different gameplays which is a plus

Sun7dance

Just give bosmers their disease resistance back. Otherwise it would be a huge nerf for medium armour.

Galarthor

What's up with all these changes to the races? They were in a good spot for the most part! I mean even Redguards are getting buffs ... lol?

And what's up with the Altmer changes? Sustain has been horrible since Morrowind and now you want to take even more sustain away? Spell Recharge will have to be a huge damage boost in order to allow Altmers to compensate that lack of sustain with specialized gear - i.e. 2 regen sets instead of 1 and/or entire jewelry enchants geared towards sustain. Bretons were already the better choice prior to these changes ...

Ghostbane

Olupajmibanan

Based on some earlier statistics ZOS has posted, isn't Altmer the most present race among all players?

Just another cash grab. Make Altmer bad to maximize profit from buying a loooot of race change tokens.

amir412

Do not nerf Fury/Legion, they are good as it is.
Create a few good weapon damage medium armor sets that provide slightly less weapon dmg.
That way med armor will still have more weapon damage with the passive.

colossalvoids

That's a type on notes I've been looking forward to since class reps program announcement.

Hotdog_23

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, in-combat bug:
ZOS hate it. The players hate it. Why isn't the mechanic behind it removed then? The bug appeared after ZOS implemented not being able to switch skills in combat - WHICH NO ONE ASKED FOR. It now causes huge problems, more than the previous system, can't be repaired and frustrates EVERYONE. Then why not just roll back? ZOS not willing to roll back wrong decisions has been a well-known weak point in the game's development for years. It can't get much clearer than this, can it?
So, unless I'm missing technical knoqledge here (please correct me then), just bite the apple and go back!

Snipe. Finally acknowledgement. Which is good. REALLY GOOD. Two things though:
Why now? Been a problem for years. Anything change ZOS' opinions on the skill? But, better late than never, and I'm happy it's being dealt with.
Why didn't ZOS tell us? There's a forum here. And while I'm only one person, I specifically asked ZOS for notion. Would have anyone broken his arm typing a quick "looking into it"? Some scraps of communication can go a long way, I think. Or, I'm wrong and this development came only to be after being pressured by the reps. In which case I thank them. And am more confused as to why it was ignored until now.

Hm. I realized how a couple pieces of the puzzle are still missing. Communication is not perfect yet. But this here is a BIG step forward, so I do applaud it! Well done!

Also, youuu caaan't really gut Altmer (sorc) sustain any more. And giving health or stam bonus racial wouldn't make sense lore- and just flair-wise. Altmer are the most destructive mages, so why not increase spell damage further? If you give them enough damage to make sustain food viable (and necessary) without dps loss, it would balance each other out.

I too like the ability to change skills in combat but figure the real reason it was stopped was because people probably could us a add-on to change skills quickly thus not being limited to 10 skills and 2 ultimate's while in combat.

I agree communication does need to improve on ZOS side. I appreciate what the class reps do but believe ZOS is listening less and less and commutating less and less because of it. I wish they would engage the community more and more on the official forms and not mostly just monitor it for bad behavior and post announcements. I believe their is room for the class reps and community involvement with ZOS to make ESO the best it can be.

Princess_Ciri

Re: the changes to High Elf, pls consider that as a High Elf healer, playing High Elf over Breton was already a choice to put magicka recovery over cost reduction and the choice to increase your group's dps.

If you remove sustain entirely from High Elf, I'm going to be forced to change to Breton which I really don't want to do Regardless of whether ZOS wants Altmers to be damage or not, removing sustain entirely is gonna be so lame. I liked the magicka recovery so much on my High Elf healer. The changes that ZOS proposed originally were not great for me but were still manageable. But if you remove sustain entirely I'm going to have to race change to Breton. And I hate Bretons. They're so boring. RIP

Dracane

Galarthor wrote: »

What's up with all these changes to the races? They were in a good spot for the most part! I mean even Redguards are getting buffs ... lol?

And what's up with the Altmer changes? Sustain has been horrible since Morrowind and now you want to take even more sustain away? Spell Recharge will have to be a huge damage boost in order to allow Altmers to compensate that lack of sustain with specialized gear - i.e. 2 regen sets instead of 1 and/or entire jewelry enchants geared towards sustain. Bretons were already the better choice prior to these changes ...

I actually can't believe that the 2 best damage races, Dunmer and Redguard get further buffs while Altmer is made worse.
I bet the replacement for Spell Recharge will be an extremely niche passive that has no combat impact at all. And redguards get 1k stamina every 5 seconds.

DarkPicture

Yea lets nerf Altmers sustain and make for dmg Dunmers as bis race because there was a lot of QQ on forum, what a suprised. Also infinity sustain of bretons should be cut a bit but why not. Its only shows how big impact QQ player have on you and you as company can't make own decision.

Altmers compare to live didnt get a huge buffs like other races, cut magicka, SD instead elementals, and a bit better sustain compare to live. WOW

And only 3 tokens to change race, NICU.

Machete

Don't you hurt my wood elves Ricky Bobby!!!

phantasmalD

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Argonians: More healing done and higher resource return on potions.

Ooof, I was expecting this but still makes me sad.
Please no. The potion passive is actually in a relatively good place on the current PTS imo, no need to buff it back up.

But that's not really my main issue with this, it's, that damn % healing done buff. One of the supposed goal with this racial rebalance was to open up more venue for races. To quote Gilliam, "Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.". So then why are argonians still getting aggressively shoehorned into being healer-only while also being a mediocre choice?

Cause healing done is only relevant to healers and even to them it's a meh option. All it does is making healing skills slightly more cost efficient (on a skill that heals 2k HP per tick it's like +60HP healed). But you know what else does that while is also more flexible? Spell damage. 258 spell damage is stronger AND more versatile than 3, even 4% healing done.

PvE DDs exist in two state: full Hp or dead. They don't really care about more efficent healing skills, but even if they did they have no reason to choose healing done over spell damage, again, 258 spell damage gives you stronger heals then 3% healing done while also being the primary thing DDs are interested in.

Tanks are usually the priority targets for healers, rarely do they need to rely on self heals. Nevertheless most tanks do slot a safety heal, typically the ones that scale based on HP or a HoT. So once again, healing done is barely relevant and 258 spell damage still probably would offer better performance.

So the main crust of my argument is that healing done is a very limited boon that is only useful for a small fragment of the roles and classes, so it's extremely dull and uninspiring.

How about something along this line of thinking: When healing give a friendly target OR when getting healed receive a medium strength buff for X second, can't be stacked.
The buff could be something specific, like spell and weapon damage or recovery or maybe randomly selected upon casting, in which case 'only one buff can be active at a time'. And could call it the Hist Provides or something.

For a lore backing I'd bring up the how argonians are supposed to be adapt in guerrilla warfare AND also the Hist sap which supposed to give combat provess to whomever imbibes it.

Lord-Otto

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, in-combat bug:
ZOS hate it. The players hate it. Why isn't the mechanic behind it removed then? The bug appeared after ZOS implemented not being able to switch skills in combat - WHICH NO ONE ASKED FOR. It now causes huge problems, more than the previous system, can't be repaired and frustrates EVERYONE. Then why not just roll back? ZOS not willing to roll back wrong decisions has been a well-known weak point in the game's development for years. It can't get much clearer than this, can it?
So, unless I'm missing technical knoqledge here (please correct me then), just bite the apple and go back!

Snipe. Finally acknowledgement. Which is good. REALLY GOOD. Two things though:
Why now? Been a problem for years. Anything change ZOS' opinions on the skill? But, better late than never, and I'm happy it's being dealt with.
Why didn't ZOS tell us? There's a forum here. And while I'm only one person, I specifically asked ZOS for notion. Would have anyone broken his arm typing a quick "looking into it"? Some scraps of communication can go a long way, I think. Or, I'm wrong and this development came only to be after being pressured by the reps. In which case I thank them. And am more confused as to why it was ignored until now.

Hm. I realized how a couple pieces of the puzzle are still missing. Communication is not perfect yet. But this here is a BIG step forward, so I do applaud it! Well done!

Also, youuu caaan't really gut Altmer (sorc) sustain any more. And giving health or stam bonus racial wouldn't make sense lore- and just flair-wise. Altmer are the most destructive mages, so why not increase spell damage further? If you give them enough damage to make sustain food viable (and necessary) without dps loss, it would balance each other out.

I too like the ability to change skills in combat but figure the real reason it was stopped was because people probably could us a add-on to change skills quickly thus not being limited to 10 skills and 2 ultimate's while in combat.

I agree communication does need to improve on ZOS side. I appreciate what the class reps do but believe ZOS is listening less and less and commutating less and less because of it. I wish they would engage the community more and more on the official forms and not mostly just monitor it for bad behavior and post announcements. I believe their is room for the class reps and community involvement with ZOS to make ESO the best it can be.

But was that really an issue? Can't see it increasing dps. And it's much better than walking from Sej to Bruma...
(>_<)

Galarthor

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

What's up with all these changes to the races? They were in a good spot for the most part! I mean even Redguards are getting buffs ... lol?

And what's up with the Altmer changes? Sustain has been horrible since Morrowind and now you want to take even more sustain away? Spell Recharge will have to be a huge damage boost in order to allow Altmers to compensate that lack of sustain with specialized gear - i.e. 2 regen sets instead of 1 and/or entire jewelry enchants geared towards sustain. Bretons were already the better choice prior to these changes ...

I actually can't believe that the 2 best damage races, Dunmer and Redguard get further buffs while Altmer is made worse.
I bet the replacement for Spell Recharge will be an extremely niche passive that has no combat impact at all. And redguards get 1k stamina every 5 seconds.

Me neither. It seems they moved from an objective / scientific approach to rebalancing the racial passives to a who-cries-the-most-on-the-forums-ofc-it-is-Redguards-Dunmers-and-Argonians-b/c-they-want-to-remain-OP approach.

They can still make it work, but wtf is up with the Argonian buff? Their current PTS potion recovery was based on set bonuses and at a level that kept it balanced with other races. Increasing that passive will just ruin the balance budget of 6.5 set bonuses worth of racial passives. And it's not like they weren't already OP for ages now. The same goes for Redguards and Dunmers!

ZonasArch

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, in-combat bug:
ZOS hate it. The players hate it. Why isn't the mechanic behind it removed then? The bug appeared after ZOS implemented not being able to switch skills in combat - WHICH NO ONE ASKED FOR. It now causes huge problems, more than the previous system, can't be repaired and frustrates EVERYONE. Then why not just roll back? ZOS not willing to roll back wrong decisions has been a well-known weak point in the game's development for years. It can't get much clearer than this, can it?
So, unless I'm missing technical knoqledge here (please correct me then), just bite the apple and go back!

Snipe. Finally acknowledgement. Which is good. REALLY GOOD. Two things though:
Why now? Been a problem for years. Anything change ZOS' opinions on the skill? But, better late than never, and I'm happy it's being dealt with.
Why didn't ZOS tell us? There's a forum here. And while I'm only one person, I specifically asked ZOS for notion. Would have anyone broken his arm typing a quick "looking into it"? Some scraps of communication can go a long way, I think. Or, I'm wrong and this development came only to be after being pressured by the reps. In which case I thank them. And am more confused as to why it was ignored until now.

Hm. I realized how a couple pieces of the puzzle are still missing. Communication is not perfect yet. But this here is a BIG step forward, so I do applaud it! Well done!

Also, youuu caaan't really gut Altmer (sorc) sustain any more. And giving health or stam bonus racial wouldn't make sense lore- and just flair-wise. Altmer are the most destructive mages, so why not increase spell damage further? If you give them enough damage to make sustain food viable (and necessary) without dps loss, it would balance each other out.

I too like the ability to change skills in combat but figure the real reason it was stopped was because people probably could us a add-on to change skills quickly thus not being limited to 10 skills and 2 ultimate's while in combat.

I agree communication does need to improve on ZOS side. I appreciate what the class reps do but believe ZOS is listening less and less and commutating less and less because of it. I wish they would engage the community more and more on the official forms and not mostly just monitor it for bad behavior and post announcements. I believe their is room for the class reps and community involvement with ZOS to make ESO the best it can be.

But was that really an issue? Can't see it increasing dps. And it's much better than walking from Sej to Bruma...
(>_<)

Not about DPS increase, but about counters. Having skill switch during fights means you have no comprises at all in your bars. If your opponents pulls a trick you were not prepared for, a press a button and you're countering. Very exploitable.

Dracane

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

What's up with all these changes to the races? They were in a good spot for the most part! I mean even Redguards are getting buffs ... lol?

And what's up with the Altmer changes? Sustain has been horrible since Morrowind and now you want to take even more sustain away? Spell Recharge will have to be a huge damage boost in order to allow Altmers to compensate that lack of sustain with specialized gear - i.e. 2 regen sets instead of 1 and/or entire jewelry enchants geared towards sustain. Bretons were already the better choice prior to these changes ...

I actually can't believe that the 2 best damage races, Dunmer and Redguard get further buffs while Altmer is made worse.
I bet the replacement for Spell Recharge will be an extremely niche passive that has no combat impact at all. And redguards get 1k stamina every 5 seconds.

Me neither. It seems they moved from an objective / scientific approach to rebalancing the racial passives to a who-cries-the-most-on-the-forums-ofc-it-is-Redguards-Dunmers-and-Argonians-b/c-they-want-to-remain-OP approach.

They can still make it work, but wtf is up with the Argonian buff? Their current PTS potion recovery was based on set bonuses and at a level that kept it balanced with other races. Increasing that passive will just ruin the balance budget of 6.5 set bonuses worth of racial passives. And it's not like they weren't already OP for ages now. The same goes for Redguards and Dunmers!

That's the point. The current racials are mathematically correct for the most part. Each race gets an almost equal amount of strenght in numbers. Nerfing and buffing others will just destroy all of that and the update will have failed to achieve its goal. At least not as good as it could have.

It is beyond me, how someone would even consider buffing Dunmer. They are the best stamina damage race and now, presumibly, also the very best magicka damage race ? If there is no clear bias here..... Why must this race always be overbuffed ?

DPShiro

Balance was actually somewhat decent on the PTS, this will make it worse from the looks of it.

Dunmer OP, Altmer useless and nerfs to the poor Nords? Really?