ZOS! What happens to MagNB?

kaithuzar

Keep in mind I’m not saying cloak should be your “only” method of defense.

You should have 2-3k crit resist, & you should either have shields or at least 15k resist unbuffed, if you can get it to 20-25k all the better; but be careful not to sacrifice too much b/c you still need a way to roughly 3skill combo kill an opponent.

Jeezye

kaithuzar wrote: »

@Knootewoot ,
So the issue is understanding what the meta is, isn’t, why something works, or isn’t viable.

In my opinion running without cloak isn’t viable currently.

We’re not built (with passives) to be tanky, nor are we built to be the best healers (even though we may have some ok ones & that may be the playstyle which performs best at current.

We need the defensiveness that comes along with cloak. The ability to almost spam the skill & have players miss attacks, the ability to suppress dots, the ability to get out & reset the fight (while overpowered in general, is necessity for such a weak class).

No matter how many times we “reset” a fight, we risk dying either due to multiple players or due to a general lack of survivability, or plainly that other classes are stronger.

Saying “I don’t use cloak”, at this point in the game, to me is the equivalent of saying “I went into Cyrodiil w/o armor on & don’t know why I died”.

unfortunatly I have to agree with you with a sour taste. The only reason I play and have been playing magblade is because of the bloodmage playstyle, which is the common brawler self-heal withle-people-down playstyle people keep talking about in this thread. I just don't enjoy running cloak, its the playstyle that just doesn't suit me I actually gave it a few tries and wanted to do a bursty build with imbue, but its just no fun and too much countered by meta builds atm.

For now I actually do switch to other toons even though I desperately want to play magblade..

Iskiab

Cloak isn’t overpowered at all really. It’s people making excuses for not playing well, and instead of trying to learn their own class blaming people for playing their own class well. It’s rationalizing being bad, where it’s easier to blame the game than themselves.

ChefZero

Knootewoot wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@Knootewoot ,
So the issue is understanding what the meta is, isn’t, why something works, or isn’t viable.

In my opinion running without cloak isn’t viable currently.

We’re not built (with passives) to be tanky, nor are we built to be the best healers (even though we may have some ok ones & that may be the playstyle which performs best at current.

We need the defensiveness that comes along with cloak. The ability to almost spam the skill & have players miss attacks, the ability to suppress dots, the ability to get out & reset the fight (while overpowered in general, is necessity for such a weak class).

No matter how many times we “reset” a fight, we risk dying either due to multiple players or due to a general lack of survivability, or plainly that other classes are stronger.

Saying “I don’t use cloak”, at this point in the game, to me is the equivalent of saying “I went into Cyrodiil w/o armor on & don’t know why I died”.

I agree fully though. Yet cloak is the subject of many nerf posts. I just wanted to prepare for the worst. But it's back on my bar in PvP. I will see what happens with it. As long as it is still my only means of protection i will use it.

Thanks for opening my eyes

Go Dark Cloak instead

technohic

Took mine back stamblade again. Better heal, better defense in roll dodge, can use root snare immunity on gear that matches the main pool, and stam morphs hit harder. There really needs to be a shift if stam hits harder, magucka has utility that works better. Too bad they couldn't scale cloak to where ar 30k+ magicka it gains an effect like root snare suppression and longer duration

kaithuzar

@technohic
I’m not sure that it’s true that stam hits harder. I’ve swapped everything to stam before, 1 to 1 comparison & I always go back to magblade because I find it has better damage.

Could it be that there are just a majority of people running around with higher spell resistance & lower physical resistance?

Or maybe it’s that physical attacks generally aren’t reflectable? I’ve never seen someone reflect dizzying swing. Dk wings?

Or maybe physical attacks can’t be absorbed like when a s&b user uses absorb magicka?

Or is it that physical attacks don’t just stop working when someone cast negate magic.

IMO, it seems like magic damage has way too many ways to mitigate that damage. Which could be “why” people make the statement “stamina hits harder”, because their attacks actually hit.

Most builds I’ve seen are running 25k spell resist & 15-20k physical, & it’s not always on purpose either, it’s just easier to stack spell resistance imo.

Most stam players I see run solo or small man. Most organized groups or even zergs run magic classes/playstyles.
It seems if you want to fight large numbers, which is necessary for good alliance point gain, & win against them, you stack spell resistance & tank through a Destro ult or two with solid heals & decent mitigation.

I personally don’t like any of this, buts it’s just my observations on the way it is currently.

Datthaw

@kaithuzar stam does hit harder though. Most of these stam build hit like 5-7k weapon damage, you're not doing that on a mag build.

As far as mag vs Stam nb who hits hardest. Stam is more upfront burst opportunity and they get the fracture from a skill in alot of burst rotations so it is more effective then say concealed opener.

Alot of these small groups run stam because vigor stacks is stupid strong atm and stam in general is in a much better place in cyro atm. Stam has much more mobility with the greater stam pool, more blocks, more rolls, easier acess to snare removal, and they don't get totally screwed by 1 negate. Not to mention the best access to aoe ults and aoe executes. Stam in general is out performing mag in cyro game play.

technohic

Well to be fair, I have seen some hard hitting magblades but it seems to me like they have to invest into it more. More glass. Stam cam and do do that for some stupid 1 shot builds, but they can still hit hard and run a bit more balanced.

Its not just about damage dealers though. I really wish SAP tanks were decent and they have been practically extinct for ages now. My stamblade runs heavy with troll king and uses cloak only as a brief health recovery with that and vigor and FM. I'd love to be able to do a magicka version with Sap and soul tether

Iskiab

I'm leveling a stamblade alt now. Stamblade definitely hits harder then magblade in a sense. There's nothing on a per ability basis that makes stamina hit harder, it's the larger picture. Stamblades have a spammable that debuffs armor resists, light armor gives spell resistance and not physical resistance. Add them together, the end result is it feels like stam hits harder.

Magblade has all the abilities it needs to do well, it's just so spread out amongst different abilities you'll be spending 1/2 your time buffing and debuffing. Relying on ele drain to debuff magicka resists sucks when you're already crunched for skill slots and spending a good chunk of your time rebuffing. You feel like you're spending 1/2 of your time applying things just to be competitive. Add in everything in the toolkit is reflectable and no survivability and it just sorta sucks right now.

mav1234

Stam has more raw damage, and while magblade can reach higher raw burst damage in some cases because light has built in spellpen, mag absolutely has less survival since it can't rely as thoroughly on roll dodge, and access to vigor is game changing given how much better it is than any resto skills for nightblades (other than the ult ofc). Stamblade can remain in fights to finish targets longer i find.

Iskiab

Agreed, if the resto skill line had an ability as good as vigor every healer would slot it.

ChefZero

MagNB lost identity with the new mantra of one skilltree for each spec (dd, heal, tank). ZOS started with changes but never finished it really. For example the changes to siphoning and shadow ulti morphs were great, NBs got heal and utility ulti finally.

BUT

- Changes to Dark Cloak were good but it lacks synergies with other skills or passives. How about adding something new to the Dark Veil passive: Increase your Spell Penetration by 2,5/5% of your Maximum Health. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Strife. DPS in PvE was to strong and they nerfed it. They could weaken the damage and adjust the HpS, change the tick to every 1 second etc to make the skill less spamable. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Path of Darkness. Like Strife we got one damage and one heal morph. A hit for PvE tanks. It's a shadow ability so it should work for tanks. Tanks need damage, self heal and utility and each morph should offer two of them. And sorry but Major Expedition sucks on a ground AoE cause the tank want to cast it and stay in it and don't want to move out of it. Unfinished!

- Veiled Strike should be the class spamable but it's settled in the wrong tree. Also Concealed Weapon is to weak in comparison to Surprise Attack. Sneak speed is *** and most times abused on the backbar of stamina gank builds. And it doesn't synergies with the new Dark Cloak. Unfinished!

- MagNB lacks burst. Assassin's Will is a joke, abuseable in busy fights but weak in 1v1 and small scale. For "real burst" you need a channeled attack for frontloaded burst or a delayed skill to sync multiplie attacks. Unfinished!

- NB skillset needs more speration. StamNBs have access to the most magicka utility skills (Blur, Mark Target, Shadow Cloak, Aspect of Terror, Summon Shade) without building for it. That makes balancing between both specs harder. Unfinished!

Lucky28

ChefZero wrote: »

MagNB lost identity with the new mantra of one skilltree for each spec (dd, heal, tank). ZOS started with changes but never finished it really. For example the changes to siphoning and shadow ulti morphs were great, NBs got heal and utility ulti finally.

BUT

- Changes to Dark Cloak were good but it lacks synergies with other skills or passives. How about adding something new to the Dark Veil passive: Increase your Spell Penetration by 2,5/5% of your Maximum Health. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Strife. DPS in PvE was to strong and they nerfed it. They could weaken the damage and adjust the HpS, change the tick to every 1 second etc to make the skill less spamable. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Path of Darkness. Like Strife we got one damage and one heal morph. A hit for PvE tanks. It's a shadow ability so it should work for tanks. Tanks need damage, self heal and utility and each morph should offer two of them. And sorry but Major Expedition sucks on a ground AoE cause the tank want to cast it and stay in it and don't want to move out of it. Unfinished!

- Veiled Strike should be the class spamable but it's settled in the wrong tree. Also Concealed Weapon is to weak in comparison to Surprise Attack. Sneak speed is *** and most times abused on the backbar of stamina gank builds. And it doesn't synergies with the new Dark Cloak. Unfinished!

- MagNB lacks burst. Assassin's Will is a joke, abuseable in busy fights but weak in 1v1 and small scale. For "real burst" you need a channeled attack for frontloaded burst or a delayed skill to sync multiplie attacks. Unfinished!

- NB skillset needs more speration. StamNBs have access to the most magicka utility skills (Blur, Mark Target, Shadow Cloak, Aspect of Terror, Summon Shade) without building for it. That makes balancing between both specs harder. Unfinished!

the one skill tree for each spec needs to be rethought entirely. i mean magblades where already designed very well to play multiple rolls, now magblades aren't designed well, they're actually kinda a mess.its' a shame because magblades where the one class in ESO that was actually perfect in terms of balance. you know what they say, don't mess with perfection... ZOS messed with Perfection.....

Strife, i don't even know what the point of that nerf was. i don't think it was PvE because it was only ever really used for Solo (like VMA) or PvP. For trials and ***, it wasn't used.... so strife didn't even contribute to magblades high DPS, as they used FP for it's high proc chance.

Path of darkness: crappy skill now.

Veiled Strike is in the right tree. don't move that skill out of shadow for the love of god.

ChefZero

Lucky28 wrote: »

ChefZero wrote: »

MagNB lost identity with the new mantra of one skilltree for each spec (dd, heal, tank). ZOS started with changes but never finished it really. For example the changes to siphoning and shadow ulti morphs were great, NBs got heal and utility ulti finally.

BUT

- Changes to Dark Cloak were good but it lacks synergies with other skills or passives. How about adding something new to the Dark Veil passive: Increase your Spell Penetration by 2,5/5% of your Maximum Health. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Strife. DPS in PvE was to strong and they nerfed it. They could weaken the damage and adjust the HpS, change the tick to every 1 second etc to make the skill less spamable. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Path of Darkness. Like Strife we got one damage and one heal morph. A hit for PvE tanks. It's a shadow ability so it should work for tanks. Tanks need damage, self heal and utility and each morph should offer two of them. And sorry but Major Expedition sucks on a ground AoE cause the tank want to cast it and stay in it and don't want to move out of it. Unfinished!

- Veiled Strike should be the class spamable but it's settled in the wrong tree. Also Concealed Weapon is to weak in comparison to Surprise Attack. Sneak speed is *** and most times abused on the backbar of stamina gank builds. And it doesn't synergies with the new Dark Cloak. Unfinished!

- MagNB lacks burst. Assassin's Will is a joke, abuseable in busy fights but weak in 1v1 and small scale. For "real burst" you need a channeled attack for frontloaded burst or a delayed skill to sync multiplie attacks. Unfinished!

- NB skillset needs more speration. StamNBs have access to the most magicka utility skills (Blur, Mark Target, Shadow Cloak, Aspect of Terror, Summon Shade) without building for it. That makes balancing between both specs harder. Unfinished!

Veiled Strike is in the right tree. don't move that skill out of shadow for the love of god.

Why? It's a bit over the top if you spam your main damage ability and never have to worry about Major Ward and Resolve uptime in my opinion...

Lucky28

ChefZero wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

ChefZero wrote: »

MagNB lost identity with the new mantra of one skilltree for each spec (dd, heal, tank). ZOS started with changes but never finished it really. For example the changes to siphoning and shadow ulti morphs were great, NBs got heal and utility ulti finally.

BUT

- Changes to Dark Cloak were good but it lacks synergies with other skills or passives. How about adding something new to the Dark Veil passive: Increase your Spell Penetration by 2,5/5% of your Maximum Health. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Strife. DPS in PvE was to strong and they nerfed it. They could weaken the damage and adjust the HpS, change the tick to every 1 second etc to make the skill less spamable. Unfinished!

- ZOS failed on Path of Darkness. Like Strife we got one damage and one heal morph. A hit for PvE tanks. It's a shadow ability so it should work for tanks. Tanks need damage, self heal and utility and each morph should offer two of them. And sorry but Major Expedition sucks on a ground AoE cause the tank want to cast it and stay in it and don't want to move out of it. Unfinished!

- Veiled Strike should be the class spamable but it's settled in the wrong tree. Also Concealed Weapon is to weak in comparison to Surprise Attack. Sneak speed is *** and most times abused on the backbar of stamina gank builds. And it doesn't synergies with the new Dark Cloak. Unfinished!

- MagNB lacks burst. Assassin's Will is a joke, abuseable in busy fights but weak in 1v1 and small scale. For "real burst" you need a channeled attack for frontloaded burst or a delayed skill to sync multiplie attacks. Unfinished!

- NB skillset needs more speration. StamNBs have access to the most magicka utility skills (Blur, Mark Target, Shadow Cloak, Aspect of Terror, Summon Shade) without building for it. That makes balancing between both specs harder. Unfinished!

Veiled Strike is in the right tree. don't move that skill out of shadow for the love of god.

Why? It's a bit over the top if you spam your main damage ability and never have to worry about Major Ward and Resolve uptime in my opinion...

yet even then NB's are still made of squish but at least it's something. And i don't agree that's it's over the top, it would be over the top if it was on say DK's Whip but NB?, nah.

even then. there is Templar with their Rune which is 100% passive. the reason NB is/was my favorite class was their Healing and Defense relied on them remaining on the offensive at all times, they're losing that and i really don't like it.

kaithuzar

@ChefZero

There are 2 key things you touched on that affect my playstyle.

1) concealed vs surprise attack
Due to surprise attack being so good, magblade has to run higher penetration to act as if they had surprise attack’s debuff up at all times. Stam users are stronger b/c they don’t need as much penetration & can crutch on this.

2) assassins will
They really nerfed it into the ground. But, it’s still usable at least for the buff even if you rarely hit with the skill.

Raudgrani

Can't play them without Zaan and Caluurion. I've tried so hard, but it's turning out a joke. I have that Concealed Weapon and fear to deal with DK's, but generally I avoid them. I hate when they rush me, flap wings constantly and spam Volatile Armor.

Previously I ran Spinner's, Necropotence and Molag Kena; used to drop Shooting Star into zergs at the front door of keeps. Sometimes you could drop one Shooting Star after another, especially if you marked random target with Reaping Mark. Tried same setup recently, but couldn't get that same nice flow as earlier. Don't know exactly what changed, maybe I'm just not good anymore on them.

Knootewoot

Raudgrani wrote: »

Can't play them without Zaan and Caluurion. I've tried so hard, but it's turning out a joke. I have that Concealed Weapon and fear to deal with DK's, but generally I avoid them. I hate when they rush me, flap wings constantly and spam Volatile Armor.

Previously I ran Spinner's, Necropotence and Molag Kena; used to drop Shooting Star into zergs at the front door of keeps. Sometimes you could drop one Shooting Star after another, especially if you marked random target with Reaping Mark. Tried same setup recently, but couldn't get that same nice flow as earlier. Don't know exactly what changed, maybe I'm just not good anymore on them.

I wish I had caluurion, as I only have the sash so far.
Normally I hated proc sets, but also use Zaan now.
I do pretty good with 5 warmaiden and brights throats or spinner. But if I get caluurion I'll wear that with spinners.

ScruffyWhiskers

Anybody thinking of trying Icy Conjurer with Caluurion and maybe Skoria? You could hit hard and then if you get the other two procs you could finish off those 25k+ hp heavier resist targets with an impale with the pressure from the Icy and Skoria procs.

Illuvatarr

NB’s cannot be the very best at everything. Magblades are very similar to mag sorcs. Incredibly high ceiling but a very low floor.

Jeezye

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Anybody thinking of trying Icy Conjurer with Caluurion and maybe Skoria? You could hit hard and then if you get the other two procs you could finish off those 25k+ hp heavier resist targets with an impale with the pressure from the Icy and Skoria procs.

not gonna support a full proc build. besindes lies the fact that magblade naturally scale best with high damage and crit for indirect healing, which proc sets don't benefit from at all. given the limited reliable damage we have it surely make sense to compliment with one procsets, but I dont think theres a benefit of running full proc other than in bgs

Sypherioth

technohic wrote: »

Well to be fair, I have seen some hard hitting magblades but it seems to me like they have to invest into it more. More glass. Stam cam and do do that for some stupid 1 shot builds, but they can still hit hard and run a bit more balanced.

Its not just about damage dealers though. I really wish SAP tanks were decent and they have been practically extinct for ages now. My stamblade runs heavy with troll king and uses cloak only as a brief health recovery with that and vigor and FM. I'd love to be able to do a magicka version with Sap and soul tether

Thing is that spell resist is to easy to obtain compared to physical resist.

My magblade skill tooltips go up in dmg alot easier then stamina does. for example my concealed was over 10k tooltip dmg easily. but a physical skill that has 7-8k tooltip dmg did better. It seems that in the end stam hits harder on players. I blame it to the unbalance between spell resist and physical resist. Also stam builds get ignore all physical resist skills. Magicka has like zero.

Noctus

amen

Lucky28

Illuvatarr wrote: »

NB’s cannot be the very best at everything. Magblades are very similar to mag sorcs. Incredibly high ceiling but a very low floor.

Sorcs are the easiest class to play, so not really comparable.

putting that aside tho. Magblades need buffs to Strife and Refreshing path. if path is going to lose it damage it should at least be on the same level as Vigor.

exeeter702

Its hard to remain optimistic for me personally. You can imagine how i feel as an argonian magblade that relied on decent resistance, managable sustain that brawled with self hot potency as a main defense. Almost every aspect of that build had been gutted.

Argonian self heals nerfed
Removed minor vit from swallow soul
Removed damage from refreshing path
Added cost to firing will proc
Loss of dodge chance with 5H + blur

KenaPK @NightbladeMechanics being one of the reps created some reassurance. It feels like the polar opposite.

I feel nb healers are still strong, and for the love of god im thankful healthy offering hasnt been the target of any nerfs, the loss of minor vit especially on top if the upcoming argonian self heal passive nerf is evidence enough in my eyes that some of these balance changes are done entirely in isolation from one another.

Look zos, if you are going to keep the removal of argonian self healing boon, give us back minor vit. How on earth was that deemed an issue that needed fixing? Were NB tanks too strong? Or god forbid were non cloak using Magblades to tanky in pvp? Having swallow soul up to 45 percent of damage done was not a real fair trade in practice since in pve, dps arent going to run it, and in pvp its rough to keep a good hot runing since you for whatever reason, refuse to let the strongest application of a hot override a redreshed one of a weaker value, making players feel bad even using it.

Datthaw

exeeter702 wrote: »

Its hard to remain optimistic for me personally. You can imagine how i feel as an argonian magblade that relied on decent resistance, managable sustain that brawled with self hot potency as a main defense. Almost every aspect of that build had been gutted.

Argonian self heals nerfed
Removed minor vit from swallow soul
Removed damage from refreshing path
Added cost to firing will proc
Loss of dodge chance with 5H + blur

KenaPK @NightbladeMechanics being one of the reps created some reassurance. It feels like the polar opposite.

I feel nb healers are still strong, and for the love of god im thankful healthy offering hasnt been the target of any nerfs, the loss of minor vit especially on top if the upcoming argonian self heal passive nerf is evidence enough in my eyes that some of these balance changes are done entirely in isolation from one another.

Look zos, if you are going to keep the removal of argonian self healing boon, give us back minor vit. How on earth was that deemed an issue that needed fixing? Were NB tanks too strong? Or god forbid were non cloak using Magblades to tanky in pvp? Having swallow soul up to 45 percent of damage done was not a real fair trade in practice since in pve, dps arent going to run it, and in pvp its rough to keep a good hot runing since you for whatever reason, refuse to let the strongest application of a hot override a redreshed one of a weaker value, making players feel bad even using it.

Yup, I played heavy armor lizard wizard myself. Now its just a joke.

Miriel

Datthaw wrote: »

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

...nah nothing wrong with my magic NB

https://youtu.be/t6tTl8wU4QE

https://youtu.be/HC_MKcOau44

Lol yeah we know I'm sure everyone in the thread can make a bomb blade. BUT try to do anything else.

Im not sure you encountered Aurora nightrose, AD nightblade healer...i say i do fairly well, with my rather unique build... And i think most on AD side enjoy having me around... im durable enough to fight at the flags, and elusive to get out of most fights and still keep most up around me...

Datthaw

Miriel wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

...nah nothing wrong with my magic NB

https://youtu.be/t6tTl8wU4QE

https://youtu.be/HC_MKcOau44

Lol yeah we know I'm sure everyone in the thread can make a bomb blade. BUT try to do anything else.

Im not sure you encountered Aurora nightrose, AD nightblade healer...i say i do fairly well, with my rather unique build... And i think most on AD side enjoy having me around... im durable enough to fight at the flags, and elusive to get out of most fights and still keep most up around me...

Yeah healer seems to be doing well, I run a temp healer in pvp and pve so I don't tinker with magnb all too much.

I think you're taking my comment out of context though, he post a bomb blade video as proof magnb didn't take some hard hits and lost alot of diversity.

Metemsycosis

Anyone else feel married to caluurions?
If I'm not running heavy armor i almost feel like I have to run this set or otherwise I struggle horribly to win a damage exchange, being in light armor.

kaithuzar

@Metemsycosis
That’s because you’re not comparing how much mitigation heavy armor gives vs other methods for obtaining roughly the same mitigation.

Example1)
Heavy armor gives X phy/sp resist

Example2)
1 pirate+1 chudan gives X phys/sp resist
(Note: 1x lord warden does the same as 1x pirate or chudan)

Example3)
5 Light armor w/nirnhoned trait, 2 heavy (big pieces) w/reinforced trait gives X phys/sp resist (note: you will need to use 5 impreg to have the crit resist needed)

All of the above are methods of being “tankier” so that you can mitigate some damage in a 1hit vs 1hit fight.

I’m using the term 1hit vs 1hit to mean:
I hit you once, you hit me once; repeat.
It’s not just the person with higher dps that wins, it’s the person who has the better ratio of dmg output to dmg mitigation/healing.

The other problem is people not realizing how much spell penetration is needed!
Spell pen is greater than spell dmg most of the time. You could pair impreg w/spinner & use infused jewelry w/sp dmg enchant.

IMO you should be running ~14k spell pen w/at least 2.2k unbuffed sp dmg & buffed should be ~3k+