New "Neutral Party" Faction for PVE'ers wanting to explore Cyrodiil.

VaranisArano

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's are problems with the "PVP isnt fun for me, so ZOS should cater to me and give me a PVE only Cyrodiil so I can have fun in this video game argument."

I'm going to look at why ZOS cares less about your fun and more about overall benefits for the players when ZOS expects players to experience Cyrodiil as a PVP zone to get rewards.

1. ZOS wants players to experience all parts of the game, not just the games they personally prefer. This is perhaps obvious business sense as they don't want players to stagnant. Some players will happily play one game mode or the other for years, but many other players will find enjoyment from both and thus prolong their play time in ESO as they experience different types of content.

However, we also see an increasing emphasis on this in recent Updates and especially Festivals. If you want the first Dawnwood berries right away or you want the rewards of Midyear Mayhem or the Imperial City event, you must risk PVP. In a similar fashion, look at the Hollowjack Festival which rewarded players for everything from delves to arenas and trials for a full range of PVE bosses.

We continually see that ZOS desires players to experience ALL game modes available in ESO and gates rewards, achievements, and festival rewards behind that content in order to draw more players out of their comfort zones.

2. ZOS specifically balances ESO around both PVP and PVE. We see this every update. We see this with the Class Representatives who are knowledgeable about BOTH PVE and PVP. Therefore, ESO benefits when its player base has an understanding of how skills, classes, and gear work in both PVP and PVE environments. Drawing PVE-only players into Cyrodiil by means of rewards like skyshards, achievements, titles, fish, and festivals is one way to accomplish this goal.

3. The rewards most PVE players care about in Cyrodiil (skyshards, delve achievements, quest achievements, dolmen achievement/title, and Master Angler) are explicitly intended for players who have participated or completed ALL of the base game content. As base game content, Cyrodiil has always been PVP, therefore its clear that from the beginning, the Devs designed these achievements in the full knowledge that players would have to enter a PVP-enabled zone.

For example, the "Savior of Nirn" title requires breaking Dark Anchors in all three alliance PVE zones and Cyrodiil. If you want the title, it is working as intended that you must go to Cyrodiil, which was always a PVP-enabled zone and includes the Bruma anchor smack in the middle of a PVP-objective town to complete it.

Furthermore, for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement and dye, while you yourself do not have to ever draw your weapons, you are reliant upon your fellow Alliance War fighters to attack the enemy scroll keeps and storm the scroll temples so that you can slip behind enemy lines and gain 4 of the necessary skyshards. That's 6 to 8 keeps that must be captured for you to get your skyshards - quite a bit of deliberately included PVP.


TLDR:
Over the entire game population, if not exactly in an individual level,

1. ZOS wants players to get out of their comfort zone and experience ALL of the game content to get ALL the rewards.
2. ZOS prefers that players be knowledgeable about PVE and PVP because they balance the game with both in mind.
3. The way the rewards were designed was clearly with Cyrodiil as a PVP zone in mind and that has shown no sign of changing (likely because of the benefits of 1 and 2).



In conclusion, ZOS did not gate rewards behind PVP zones by accident. It is deliberate, intended, and beneficial for the game as a whole for Players to leave their PVE comfort zones and experience PVP zones.

It may not be beneficial for an individual player to enter PVP - hence the "but video games should be fun, and PVP isnt fun for me, so I should get to skip it" argument. The counter to that argument looks at the benefits to the game as a whole, and assuming the benefits of rewards drawing PVE-only players into PVP Cyrodiil continue to achieve the Devs aims of encouraging players to try ALL the game modes and educating players about future balance for PVE and PVP, I fully expect the current system to continue on as it is.



Or to be extremely blunt, ESO is clearly not and never was designed around a mindsight of "Video games should be fun and if this isn't fun for me I should get to skip it and get the rewards."

ESO is more like "If something isn't fun for you, I guess you'll miss out. It'll be there if you decide you want it badly enough to try it out. If you never do, no sweat." That's by design, because they want players to do ALL the content, not pick, choose, and skip and get all the rewards anyway.

@VaranisArano

you raise some very good points my friend. i feel it delves into the issue of why zos shouldn't keep the same balance across both sides of the game, and more importantly, how they already have broken that mindset (see: battle spirit or whatever its called)

you're very correct on several fronts though, i just feel your points don't take a lot of things into context, like battle level and the fact this divide is just always going to exist

To address your points, which are good, in more detail:

Balancing PVE and PVP together - we can argue whether or not ZOS should do this, but the fact remains that this is how they balance the game (rather imperfectly, IMO). Because that's how they are apparently committed to balancing ESO rather than any of the alternatives like a more robust Battle Spirit, my point remains that the Devs prefer that the playerbase be knowledgeable about both PVP and PVE. Recently, I think that with the Class Rep system they've committed more to balancing together than the other way 'round.

Until ZOS changes their methodology for balancing PVE and PVP together, its beneficial for them to encourage players to experience all levels of PVP and a PVP game modes, and indeed we see them encouraging players to do this with festivals and rewards.



As for the PVE/PVP divide, yes, it will always exist. Some players just prefer one or the other. Some wouldn't do PVP if you paid them, etc. Some players do PVE for ten levels and hop into Cyrodiil/BGs and only come out to get PVP gear.

Nevertheless, since ZOS has committed to balancing both game modes together, its in ZOS' best interests to encourage players to play ALL of the game. That's true from several perspectives.
1. Player longevity - players who enjoy multiple aspects of ESO are less likely to leave if ZOS nerfs their one thing they like about the game
2. Players may change their mind with experience. I'm in this boat. I was solidly anti-PVP, but repeated exposure to it brought me round and now I'm a PVPer. My SO, on the other hand, tried PVP because I liked it and found they didn't care for it with repeated exposure.
3. More knowledgable players. With balancing changes having impacts in PVP and PVE, its important that the player community not have a rigid split in PVP vs PVE. Instead, when many players have at least a little experience in both, it promotes greater understanding of how balance changes impact the game in both modes.

So even though there will always be players who don't enjoy or even want to experience PVP, its still beneficial for ZOS to encourage players to experience it. Offering rewards for doing so is a way to draw players out of their comfort zones into different content.


So, I dont think that ZOS is ever going to get 100% of players to experience PVP or PVPers to love PVE no matrer how beneficial it might be. Still, as long as ZOS balances PVE and PVP together as they currently do, it is good for the health of the game community for ZOS to encourage players to experience ALL of the game modes both in PVE and PVP.

Which is why the Devs do it that way. If they ever seperate PVP and PVE fully, then I think there's an argument to be made for seperating PVE out of Cyrodiil as well.

i feel you might have brushed over my point on battle spirit to be honest

it strikes me as hypocritical on zos's part that they claim to want to balance pve and pvp the same when in fact, healing is already halved in cyrodiil, everyone already has 5k extra hp in cyrodiil

that is proof that the two sides of the game cannot co exist or at the very least, cannot be balanced the same way

Not intending to brush over it, more that I don't think that the existence of Battle Spirit changes the fact that ZOS remains committed to balancing PVE and PVP together.

There's been a lot of balance changes where people say, sometimes reasonably, "Just add this to Battle Spirit, ZOS! Let it only impact PVP! Leave PVE out of it."

ZOS really hasn't done that for a lot of recent balance changes. Instead, they've made changes that impact both PVE and PVP together instead of using Battle Spirit to only impact PVP, even when players think it would better suit their presumed goals. The prime example I can think of is the Murkmire damage shield changes where ZOS specifically targeted both PVE and PVP together, even though PVP changes would have been very easy to wrap into Battle Spirit. There's been others, like heavy armor nerfs targeting 1vXers, Earthgore nerfs targeting ball groups stacking Earthgore, and the overall speed nerfs targeting speed-stacking PVPers, etc. While these changes may have some minor PVE benefits from ZOS' perspective and usually do, they are primarily PVP nerfs that were not bound into Battle Spirit even though they could (perhaps, should) have been.

Furthermore, where ZOS has brought in players to advise on balance changes, the Class Representatives, its been with an emphasis on knowing how changes impact PVE and PVP at the same time.


In other words, its true that the existence of Battle Spirit or changes to certain skills in PVP zones (example, Negate Magic silences players instead of stunning them like NPCs) mean that ZOS doesn't 100% balance PVE and PVP together. You can't walk from one game mode to the other with 100% fidelity of experience.

However, ZOS also doesn't balance them 100% separately, and indeed seems reluctant to use Battle Spirit for their balance changes when they can impact PVE and PVP at the same time.

As for why that is...well, I'm not privy to ZOS' decision making in this regard. I suspect it has to do with the points I brought up about player longevity and the player community. If ZOS moves away from the current model (players are encouraged to play ALL game modes and they are balanced together) to a model where PVE and PVP are separated, that leads to creating an explicitly separate PVE and PVP community with inevitably widely different balance concerns and desires for new content. If I'm primarily a PVEer, I'm going to want new PVE content while the reverse is true of PVPers. That means that ZOS has to make a big shift in how they handle new content development and balancing in areas like race, class, gear, new DLC, and actually separating PVE and PVP in terms of leveling. Doing so means ZOS has to devote a lot of effort towards massively changing the status quo...and they need a pretty good reason and expected profits to do so. Personally, I don't think the expected profits from such a move are enough to convince ZOS to move away from the status quo.


So you are right that ZOS doesn't 100% balance PVE and PVP together. Even beyond Battle Spirit, there are differences.

However, I don't think the existence of Battle Spirit or differences has caused ZOS to embrace balancing separately. Quite the opposite with recent changes. I suspect its because ZOS wants players to play ALL of ESO rather than create a completely separate PVE and PVP community with different desires for balance and new development which would require a great deal of change in how ZOS currently develops ESO.

Browiseth

pzschrek wrote: »

You can have your pve cyrodiil when I no longer have to run a single dungeon ever again to get bis gear on day 1 on demand without the golden.

@pzschrek
that's a very selfish and spiteful mindset

pzschrek

That’s easy to say from your position of privilege as a PVE player. ZOS actually cares about you.

Amphithoe

pzschrek wrote: »

You can have your pve cyrodiil when I no longer have to run a single dungeon ever again to get bis gear on day 1 on demand without the golden.

Browiseth

VaranisArano wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's are problems with the "PVP isnt fun for me, so ZOS should cater to me and give me a PVE only Cyrodiil so I can have fun in this video game argument."

I'm going to look at why ZOS cares less about your fun and more about overall benefits for the players when ZOS expects players to experience Cyrodiil as a PVP zone to get rewards.

1. ZOS wants players to experience all parts of the game, not just the games they personally prefer. This is perhaps obvious business sense as they don't want players to stagnant. Some players will happily play one game mode or the other for years, but many other players will find enjoyment from both and thus prolong their play time in ESO as they experience different types of content.

However, we also see an increasing emphasis on this in recent Updates and especially Festivals. If you want the first Dawnwood berries right away or you want the rewards of Midyear Mayhem or the Imperial City event, you must risk PVP. In a similar fashion, look at the Hollowjack Festival which rewarded players for everything from delves to arenas and trials for a full range of PVE bosses.

We continually see that ZOS desires players to experience ALL game modes available in ESO and gates rewards, achievements, and festival rewards behind that content in order to draw more players out of their comfort zones.

2. ZOS specifically balances ESO around both PVP and PVE. We see this every update. We see this with the Class Representatives who are knowledgeable about BOTH PVE and PVP. Therefore, ESO benefits when its player base has an understanding of how skills, classes, and gear work in both PVP and PVE environments. Drawing PVE-only players into Cyrodiil by means of rewards like skyshards, achievements, titles, fish, and festivals is one way to accomplish this goal.

3. The rewards most PVE players care about in Cyrodiil (skyshards, delve achievements, quest achievements, dolmen achievement/title, and Master Angler) are explicitly intended for players who have participated or completed ALL of the base game content. As base game content, Cyrodiil has always been PVP, therefore its clear that from the beginning, the Devs designed these achievements in the full knowledge that players would have to enter a PVP-enabled zone.

For example, the "Savior of Nirn" title requires breaking Dark Anchors in all three alliance PVE zones and Cyrodiil. If you want the title, it is working as intended that you must go to Cyrodiil, which was always a PVP-enabled zone and includes the Bruma anchor smack in the middle of a PVP-objective town to complete it.

Furthermore, for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement and dye, while you yourself do not have to ever draw your weapons, you are reliant upon your fellow Alliance War fighters to attack the enemy scroll keeps and storm the scroll temples so that you can slip behind enemy lines and gain 4 of the necessary skyshards. That's 6 to 8 keeps that must be captured for you to get your skyshards - quite a bit of deliberately included PVP.


TLDR:
Over the entire game population, if not exactly in an individual level,

1. ZOS wants players to get out of their comfort zone and experience ALL of the game content to get ALL the rewards.
2. ZOS prefers that players be knowledgeable about PVE and PVP because they balance the game with both in mind.
3. The way the rewards were designed was clearly with Cyrodiil as a PVP zone in mind and that has shown no sign of changing (likely because of the benefits of 1 and 2).



In conclusion, ZOS did not gate rewards behind PVP zones by accident. It is deliberate, intended, and beneficial for the game as a whole for Players to leave their PVE comfort zones and experience PVP zones.

It may not be beneficial for an individual player to enter PVP - hence the "but video games should be fun, and PVP isnt fun for me, so I should get to skip it" argument. The counter to that argument looks at the benefits to the game as a whole, and assuming the benefits of rewards drawing PVE-only players into PVP Cyrodiil continue to achieve the Devs aims of encouraging players to try ALL the game modes and educating players about future balance for PVE and PVP, I fully expect the current system to continue on as it is.



Or to be extremely blunt, ESO is clearly not and never was designed around a mindsight of "Video games should be fun and if this isn't fun for me I should get to skip it and get the rewards."

ESO is more like "If something isn't fun for you, I guess you'll miss out. It'll be there if you decide you want it badly enough to try it out. If you never do, no sweat." That's by design, because they want players to do ALL the content, not pick, choose, and skip and get all the rewards anyway.

@VaranisArano

you raise some very good points my friend. i feel it delves into the issue of why zos shouldn't keep the same balance across both sides of the game, and more importantly, how they already have broken that mindset (see: battle spirit or whatever its called)

you're very correct on several fronts though, i just feel your points don't take a lot of things into context, like battle level and the fact this divide is just always going to exist

To address your points, which are good, in more detail:

Balancing PVE and PVP together - we can argue whether or not ZOS should do this, but the fact remains that this is how they balance the game (rather imperfectly, IMO). Because that's how they are apparently committed to balancing ESO rather than any of the alternatives like a more robust Battle Spirit, my point remains that the Devs prefer that the playerbase be knowledgeable about both PVP and PVE. Recently, I think that with the Class Rep system they've committed more to balancing together than the other way 'round.

Until ZOS changes their methodology for balancing PVE and PVP together, its beneficial for them to encourage players to experience all levels of PVP and a PVP game modes, and indeed we see them encouraging players to do this with festivals and rewards.



As for the PVE/PVP divide, yes, it will always exist. Some players just prefer one or the other. Some wouldn't do PVP if you paid them, etc. Some players do PVE for ten levels and hop into Cyrodiil/BGs and only come out to get PVP gear.

Nevertheless, since ZOS has committed to balancing both game modes together, its in ZOS' best interests to encourage players to play ALL of the game. That's true from several perspectives.
1. Player longevity - players who enjoy multiple aspects of ESO are less likely to leave if ZOS nerfs their one thing they like about the game
2. Players may change their mind with experience. I'm in this boat. I was solidly anti-PVP, but repeated exposure to it brought me round and now I'm a PVPer. My SO, on the other hand, tried PVP because I liked it and found they didn't care for it with repeated exposure.
3. More knowledgable players. With balancing changes having impacts in PVP and PVE, its important that the player community not have a rigid split in PVP vs PVE. Instead, when many players have at least a little experience in both, it promotes greater understanding of how balance changes impact the game in both modes.

So even though there will always be players who don't enjoy or even want to experience PVP, its still beneficial for ZOS to encourage players to experience it. Offering rewards for doing so is a way to draw players out of their comfort zones into different content.


So, I dont think that ZOS is ever going to get 100% of players to experience PVP or PVPers to love PVE no matrer how beneficial it might be. Still, as long as ZOS balances PVE and PVP together as they currently do, it is good for the health of the game community for ZOS to encourage players to experience ALL of the game modes both in PVE and PVP.

Which is why the Devs do it that way. If they ever seperate PVP and PVE fully, then I think there's an argument to be made for seperating PVE out of Cyrodiil as well.

i feel you might have brushed over my point on battle spirit to be honest

it strikes me as hypocritical on zos's part that they claim to want to balance pve and pvp the same when in fact, healing is already halved in cyrodiil, everyone already has 5k extra hp in cyrodiil

that is proof that the two sides of the game cannot co exist or at the very least, cannot be balanced the same way

Not intending to brush over it, more that I don't think that the existence of Battle Spirit changes the fact that ZOS remains committed to balancing PVE and PVP together.

There's been a lot of balance changes where people say, sometimes reasonably, "Just add this to Battle Spirit, ZOS! Let it only impact PVP! Leave PVE out of it."

ZOS really hasn't done that for a lot of recent balance changes. Instead, they've made changes that impact both PVE and PVP together instead of using Battle Spirit to only impact PVP, even when players think it would better suit their presumed goals. The prime example I can think of is the Murkmire damage shield changes where ZOS specifically targeted both PVE and PVP together, even though PVP changes would have been very easy to wrap into Battle Spirit. There's been others, like heavy armor nerfs targeting 1vXers, Earthgore nerfs targeting ball groups stacking Earthgore, and the overall speed nerfs targeting speed-stacking PVPers, etc. While these changes may have some minor PVE benefits from ZOS' perspective and usually do, they are primarily PVP nerfs that were not bound into Battle Spirit even though they could (perhaps, should) have been.

Furthermore, where ZOS has brought in players to advise on balance changes, the Class Representatives, its been with an emphasis on knowing how changes impact PVE and PVP at the same time.


In other words, its true that the existence of Battle Spirit or changes to certain skills in PVP zones (example, Negate Magic silences players instead of stunning them like NPCs) mean that ZOS doesn't 100% balance PVE and PVP together. You can't walk from one game mode to the other with 100% fidelity of experience.

However, ZOS also doesn't balance them 100% separately, and indeed seems reluctant to use Battle Spirit for their balance changes when they can impact PVE and PVP at the same time.

As for why that is...well, I'm not privy to ZOS' decision making in this regard. I suspect it has to do with the points I brought up about player longevity and the player community. If ZOS moves away from the current model (players are encouraged to play ALL game modes and they are balanced together) to a model where PVE and PVP are separated, that leads to creating an explicitly separate PVE and PVP community with inevitably widely different balance concerns and desires for new content. If I'm primarily a PVEer, I'm going to want new PVE content while the reverse is true of PVPers. That means that ZOS has to make a big shift in how they handle new content development and balancing in areas like race, class, gear, new DLC, and actually separating PVE and PVP in terms of leveling. Doing so means ZOS has to devote a lot of effort towards massively changing the status quo...and they need a pretty good reason and expected profits to do so. Personally, I don't think the expected profits from such a move are enough to convince ZOS to move away from the status quo.


So you are right that ZOS doesn't 100% balance PVE and PVP together. Even beyond Battle Spirit, there are differences.

However, I don't think the existence of Battle Spirit or differences has caused ZOS to embrace balancing separately. Quite the opposite with recent changes. I suspect its because ZOS wants players to play ALL of ESO rather than create a completely separate PVE and PVP community with different desires for balance and new development which would require a great deal of change in how ZOS currently develops ESO.

hm, okay. agree to disagree tbh.

pzschrek wrote: »

That’s easy to say from your position of privilege as a PVE player. ZOS actually cares about you.

like I said, spiteful

VaranisArano

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's are problems with the "PVP isnt fun for me, so ZOS should cater to me and give me a PVE only Cyrodiil so I can have fun in this video game argument."

I'm going to look at why ZOS cares less about your fun and more about overall benefits for the players when ZOS expects players to experience Cyrodiil as a PVP zone to get rewards.

1. ZOS wants players to experience all parts of the game, not just the games they personally prefer. This is perhaps obvious business sense as they don't want players to stagnant. Some players will happily play one game mode or the other for years, but many other players will find enjoyment from both and thus prolong their play time in ESO as they experience different types of content.

However, we also see an increasing emphasis on this in recent Updates and especially Festivals. If you want the first Dawnwood berries right away or you want the rewards of Midyear Mayhem or the Imperial City event, you must risk PVP. In a similar fashion, look at the Hollowjack Festival which rewarded players for everything from delves to arenas and trials for a full range of PVE bosses.

We continually see that ZOS desires players to experience ALL game modes available in ESO and gates rewards, achievements, and festival rewards behind that content in order to draw more players out of their comfort zones.

2. ZOS specifically balances ESO around both PVP and PVE. We see this every update. We see this with the Class Representatives who are knowledgeable about BOTH PVE and PVP. Therefore, ESO benefits when its player base has an understanding of how skills, classes, and gear work in both PVP and PVE environments. Drawing PVE-only players into Cyrodiil by means of rewards like skyshards, achievements, titles, fish, and festivals is one way to accomplish this goal.

3. The rewards most PVE players care about in Cyrodiil (skyshards, delve achievements, quest achievements, dolmen achievement/title, and Master Angler) are explicitly intended for players who have participated or completed ALL of the base game content. As base game content, Cyrodiil has always been PVP, therefore its clear that from the beginning, the Devs designed these achievements in the full knowledge that players would have to enter a PVP-enabled zone.

For example, the "Savior of Nirn" title requires breaking Dark Anchors in all three alliance PVE zones and Cyrodiil. If you want the title, it is working as intended that you must go to Cyrodiil, which was always a PVP-enabled zone and includes the Bruma anchor smack in the middle of a PVP-objective town to complete it.

Furthermore, for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement and dye, while you yourself do not have to ever draw your weapons, you are reliant upon your fellow Alliance War fighters to attack the enemy scroll keeps and storm the scroll temples so that you can slip behind enemy lines and gain 4 of the necessary skyshards. That's 6 to 8 keeps that must be captured for you to get your skyshards - quite a bit of deliberately included PVP.


TLDR:
Over the entire game population, if not exactly in an individual level,

1. ZOS wants players to get out of their comfort zone and experience ALL of the game content to get ALL the rewards.
2. ZOS prefers that players be knowledgeable about PVE and PVP because they balance the game with both in mind.
3. The way the rewards were designed was clearly with Cyrodiil as a PVP zone in mind and that has shown no sign of changing (likely because of the benefits of 1 and 2).



In conclusion, ZOS did not gate rewards behind PVP zones by accident. It is deliberate, intended, and beneficial for the game as a whole for Players to leave their PVE comfort zones and experience PVP zones.

It may not be beneficial for an individual player to enter PVP - hence the "but video games should be fun, and PVP isnt fun for me, so I should get to skip it" argument. The counter to that argument looks at the benefits to the game as a whole, and assuming the benefits of rewards drawing PVE-only players into PVP Cyrodiil continue to achieve the Devs aims of encouraging players to try ALL the game modes and educating players about future balance for PVE and PVP, I fully expect the current system to continue on as it is.



Or to be extremely blunt, ESO is clearly not and never was designed around a mindsight of "Video games should be fun and if this isn't fun for me I should get to skip it and get the rewards."

ESO is more like "If something isn't fun for you, I guess you'll miss out. It'll be there if you decide you want it badly enough to try it out. If you never do, no sweat." That's by design, because they want players to do ALL the content, not pick, choose, and skip and get all the rewards anyway.

@VaranisArano

you raise some very good points my friend. i feel it delves into the issue of why zos shouldn't keep the same balance across both sides of the game, and more importantly, how they already have broken that mindset (see: battle spirit or whatever its called)

you're very correct on several fronts though, i just feel your points don't take a lot of things into context, like battle level and the fact this divide is just always going to exist

To address your points, which are good, in more detail:

Balancing PVE and PVP together - we can argue whether or not ZOS should do this, but the fact remains that this is how they balance the game (rather imperfectly, IMO). Because that's how they are apparently committed to balancing ESO rather than any of the alternatives like a more robust Battle Spirit, my point remains that the Devs prefer that the playerbase be knowledgeable about both PVP and PVE. Recently, I think that with the Class Rep system they've committed more to balancing together than the other way 'round.

Until ZOS changes their methodology for balancing PVE and PVP together, its beneficial for them to encourage players to experience all levels of PVP and a PVP game modes, and indeed we see them encouraging players to do this with festivals and rewards.



As for the PVE/PVP divide, yes, it will always exist. Some players just prefer one or the other. Some wouldn't do PVP if you paid them, etc. Some players do PVE for ten levels and hop into Cyrodiil/BGs and only come out to get PVP gear.

Nevertheless, since ZOS has committed to balancing both game modes together, its in ZOS' best interests to encourage players to play ALL of the game. That's true from several perspectives.
1. Player longevity - players who enjoy multiple aspects of ESO are less likely to leave if ZOS nerfs their one thing they like about the game
2. Players may change their mind with experience. I'm in this boat. I was solidly anti-PVP, but repeated exposure to it brought me round and now I'm a PVPer. My SO, on the other hand, tried PVP because I liked it and found they didn't care for it with repeated exposure.
3. More knowledgable players. With balancing changes having impacts in PVP and PVE, its important that the player community not have a rigid split in PVP vs PVE. Instead, when many players have at least a little experience in both, it promotes greater understanding of how balance changes impact the game in both modes.

So even though there will always be players who don't enjoy or even want to experience PVP, its still beneficial for ZOS to encourage players to experience it. Offering rewards for doing so is a way to draw players out of their comfort zones into different content.


So, I dont think that ZOS is ever going to get 100% of players to experience PVP or PVPers to love PVE no matrer how beneficial it might be. Still, as long as ZOS balances PVE and PVP together as they currently do, it is good for the health of the game community for ZOS to encourage players to experience ALL of the game modes both in PVE and PVP.

Which is why the Devs do it that way. If they ever seperate PVP and PVE fully, then I think there's an argument to be made for seperating PVE out of Cyrodiil as well.

i feel you might have brushed over my point on battle spirit to be honest

it strikes me as hypocritical on zos's part that they claim to want to balance pve and pvp the same when in fact, healing is already halved in cyrodiil, everyone already has 5k extra hp in cyrodiil

that is proof that the two sides of the game cannot co exist or at the very least, cannot be balanced the same way

Not intending to brush over it, more that I don't think that the existence of Battle Spirit changes the fact that ZOS remains committed to balancing PVE and PVP together.

There's been a lot of balance changes where people say, sometimes reasonably, "Just add this to Battle Spirit, ZOS! Let it only impact PVP! Leave PVE out of it."

ZOS really hasn't done that for a lot of recent balance changes. Instead, they've made changes that impact both PVE and PVP together instead of using Battle Spirit to only impact PVP, even when players think it would better suit their presumed goals. The prime example I can think of is the Murkmire damage shield changes where ZOS specifically targeted both PVE and PVP together, even though PVP changes would have been very easy to wrap into Battle Spirit. There's been others, like heavy armor nerfs targeting 1vXers, Earthgore nerfs targeting ball groups stacking Earthgore, and the overall speed nerfs targeting speed-stacking PVPers, etc. While these changes may have some minor PVE benefits from ZOS' perspective and usually do, they are primarily PVP nerfs that were not bound into Battle Spirit even though they could (perhaps, should) have been.

Furthermore, where ZOS has brought in players to advise on balance changes, the Class Representatives, its been with an emphasis on knowing how changes impact PVE and PVP at the same time.


In other words, its true that the existence of Battle Spirit or changes to certain skills in PVP zones (example, Negate Magic silences players instead of stunning them like NPCs) mean that ZOS doesn't 100% balance PVE and PVP together. You can't walk from one game mode to the other with 100% fidelity of experience.

However, ZOS also doesn't balance them 100% separately, and indeed seems reluctant to use Battle Spirit for their balance changes when they can impact PVE and PVP at the same time.

As for why that is...well, I'm not privy to ZOS' decision making in this regard. I suspect it has to do with the points I brought up about player longevity and the player community. If ZOS moves away from the current model (players are encouraged to play ALL game modes and they are balanced together) to a model where PVE and PVP are separated, that leads to creating an explicitly separate PVE and PVP community with inevitably widely different balance concerns and desires for new content. If I'm primarily a PVEer, I'm going to want new PVE content while the reverse is true of PVPers. That means that ZOS has to make a big shift in how they handle new content development and balancing in areas like race, class, gear, new DLC, and actually separating PVE and PVP in terms of leveling. Doing so means ZOS has to devote a lot of effort towards massively changing the status quo...and they need a pretty good reason and expected profits to do so. Personally, I don't think the expected profits from such a move are enough to convince ZOS to move away from the status quo.


So you are right that ZOS doesn't 100% balance PVE and PVP together. Even beyond Battle Spirit, there are differences.

However, I don't think the existence of Battle Spirit or differences has caused ZOS to embrace balancing separately. Quite the opposite with recent changes. I suspect its because ZOS wants players to play ALL of ESO rather than create a completely separate PVE and PVP community with different desires for balance and new development which would require a great deal of change in how ZOS currently develops ESO.

hm, okay. agree to disagree tbh.

Thanks for the great discussion! I appreciate a good debate even or perhaps especially when we wind up agreeing to disagree.

Kalgert

pzschrek wrote: »

That’s easy to say from your position of privilege as a PVE player. ZOS actually cares about you.

I always consider PvP players to be spite-filled, selfish, and dare I say ENTITLED(!?) type of players in any MMO game that has a PvE basis.

Your comment is a good example.

Tetrafy

Overcomplicating it. Why not just allow a setting where you join wihtout able to be targeted?

TequilaFire

Lets see, let me get on my neutral not able to be targeted alt and go see what DC is up to and report back to my EP buddies.
I could have fun trolling a group to chase me too. lol

eliisra

Tetrafy wrote: »

Overcomplicating it. Why not just allow a setting where you join wihtout able to be targeted?

Because PvP'ers would enrage and uninstall the game if they couldn't target enemy players. Just imagine the drama lol? Would be kinda disruptive with a bunch of untargetable guys running around and trolling anyhow.

I think a PvE version of Cyrodiil would be better, if this is something that's absolutely needed? I don't know if it is though, but than again I can't relate to this paralyzing fear of PvP. We all have different needs I guess. I "need" more hairstyles personally, but some people cant relate to that either and tells me it's not needed

rootimus

Oh, it's this thread, again.

Casdha

I thought I'd go back and dig this up. It is the text from a post I made back during Beta Jan 2014:

I know I and others have begged and pleaded for Unaligned Guilds and things seem to get just tighter and tighter on what you can do across Alliance lines. Well, you already understand what we want, you just do not seem to see.

Maybe a quote from your own game can explain it better.

"We only raise our blades in service to the guild. We're neutral in the war between the three Alliances. Some of us follow the Lion banner and King Emeric, of course. But every race, every creed, belongs under the Guildhall's roof." - Basile Fenandre

I've heard a version of this quote exists in each alliance, but reads pretty much the same way.

All I am asking for is something that has always been in Elder Scrolls, it is not a new concept, your own words verify that.

Thanks for reading and as always,

Have Fun!!

I've been asking for something like this for a very long time.

xxthir13enxx

https://youtu.be/L0WZILC15h0

pieratsos

KnightsMentor wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

KnightsMentor wrote: »

PVE Cyrodiil Zone Outside PVP Cyrodiil campaign...
Would actually reduce load in a campaign removing those in there for PVE purposes.

Look, its a really simple concept. You are playing an MMO. There is PVP, PVE, solo content, group content etc. Not everything is going to be tailored to your needs. This is kinda obvious. You cant satisfy everyone. Cyrodiil is a PVP zone. Its supposed to be a war zone. If you want to step foot into cyrodiil for whatever reason, you enable urself for PVP. It really isnt such a hard concept to grasp. Questing and skyshard farming in cyrodiil doesnt entail too much PVP. Hell you may not even have to do engage into any kind of PVP if you are lucky enough. But if you absolutely hate even the idea of another player attacking you then dont get into a PVP zone.

Seriously, removing any kind of PVE content like skyshards and quests from cyrodill is a much better solution than an entirely new PVE cyrodiil campaign. For starters, a peaceful cyrodiil makes no sense to begin with and it breaks the story of the game. But most importantly, it will literally create a sh*tstorm of complaints cause then everyone would have a reason to complain and ask for the game to be tailored around their needs. You want a PVE cyrodiil, i want a solo version of every single PVE content including trials. l cant be arsed finding capable groups of doing difficult content so i just want everything to have a vMA version as well. Why are you right and im wrong? Why am i right and you are wrong? What if the next guy wants something different. Where exactly do you draw the line.

So never change the game because people will voice opinions and wishes? And when did I ask for group PVE content to be made solo PVE content? The request is really simple, and for PVP'ers it would make no difference. Nothing would change the normal PVP campaigns, other than perhaps removing those few who run through the map for PVE purposes. And as for a peaceful Cyrodill I never said to end the conflict, I would say it could open up new avenues for quest's and story content to further delve into the war of the three banners.

Do you even understand how PVP works? There are scrolls behind those gates. Scrolls are a core mechanic of how cyrodiil works. Of course it makes a difference. Leaving the gates open means changing the entire functionality of PVP.

You literally want to change the entire functionality of PVP because you dont like PVP without caring about how it affects PVP players. Do you even understand how absurd that sounds? You are not asking ZOS to change the game. You are asking them to tailor the game around ur personal needs. There is a big difference between the two. And learn to read. I didnt say that you asked for group content to be made into solo PVE content. I said that i could ask that because i dont like group PVE content. But im not going to actually ask that because it would be completely absurd. They are not going to tailor the game around my personal needs.

You are playing an MMO. Not a single player game. Not everything is going to be the way you like and no, changing everything based on what you personally like isnt an option. If you cant understand that then maybe MMOs arent for you.

pieratsos

Kalgert wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This would be the worst thing ever for PvP. Honestly PvE has more then PvP ever gets, we are the hated middle child of this game. It would end up being used to help fractions to exploit PvP even more so with less then tasteful decisions. You want those last achievements get them by actually participating in PvP and have some fun.

PvP is not fun. Not in this game anyway.

Besides, if I want to do PvP, I'll do it in Battlegrounds. At least there I feel some control over my ability in killing people and staying alive (And at least I go there with the full intent and consent that I'll get killed while possibly also killing people in return).

PvP in Cyrodiil is... Well, to say it politely: Hot steaming pile of garbage. Not only that, if I do go there, it is with the intent of non-PvP activities, such as a few quests, Skyshards, stuff like that.

By the way, I find the snarky "Make a PvE variant with no Skyshards in it" comments to be pathetic. If you want to add limitations, why not limit it down to not getting PvP centered rewards, or not having access to certain merchants? Wouldn't that make more sense? Naaah, probably not as your head's stuck between your buttcheeks.

Only good PvP is Battleground PvP. That is a fact.

You do realize that skyshard cyrodil achievements are pvp centered right? 3 of them are locked behind faction gates. Meaning, that you literally can't get them unless ur faction opens those gates through pvp activities(taking enemy keeps).

So either leave the gates open, or make it so you can get your faction's Skyshards, while having to get in to PvP to get the ones behind enemy gates.

Sounds fair, right?

Hold on hold on. Leave the gates open? So basically your defintion of fair is to change how PVP works because some people who dont care about PVP want to get a few skyshards. Wow mate, you take the word "entitled" to a whole new level. Whats next. Do you want ZOS to ban PVP players too, or simply deleting PVP is enough? You know, just to be sure. We dont want to dissapoint you.

In the context of "Separate PvE Cyrodiil Canpaign", yes, leave the gates open.

And I could give less of a damn about PvP players. If I want to interact with them, I'll play Battlegrounds, or if I suffered a head injury: Go to PvP Cyrodiil. Otherwise I'd be sticking to the rest of the world, or go to PvE Cyrodiil if it were there.

Comprende?

I know this may come as a surprise to you but you are not the centre of the universe. You may not give a damn about PVP but i dont give a flying **** about what you like.

Capiche?

Illuvatarr

Kalgert wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This would be the worst thing ever for PvP. Honestly PvE has more then PvP ever gets, we are the hated middle child of this game. It would end up being used to help fractions to exploit PvP even more so with less then tasteful decisions. You want those last achievements get them by actually participating in PvP and have some fun.

PvP is not fun. Not in this game anyway.

Besides, if I want to do PvP, I'll do it in Battlegrounds. At least there I feel some control over my ability in killing people and staying alive (And at least I go there with the full intent and consent that I'll get killed while possibly also killing people in return).

PvP in Cyrodiil is... Well, to say it politely: Hot steaming pile of garbage. Not only that, if I do go there, it is with the intent of non-PvP activities, such as a few quests, Skyshards, stuff like that.

By the way, I find the snarky "Make a PvE variant with no Skyshards in it" comments to be pathetic. If you want to add limitations, why not limit it down to not getting PvP centered rewards, or not having access to certain merchants? Wouldn't that make more sense? Naaah, probably not as your head's stuck between your buttcheeks.

Only good PvP is Battleground PvP. That is a fact.

Kalgert wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This would be the worst thing ever for PvP. Honestly PvE has more then PvP ever gets, we are the hated middle child of this game. It would end up being used to help fractions to exploit PvP even more so with less then tasteful decisions. You want those last achievements get them by actually participating in PvP and have some fun.

PvP is not fun. Not in this game anyway.

Besides, if I want to do PvP, I'll do it in Battlegrounds. At least there I feel some control over my ability in killing people and staying alive (And at least I go there with the full intent and consent that I'll get killed while possibly also killing people in return).

PvP in Cyrodiil is... Well, to say it politely: Hot steaming pile of garbage. Not only that, if I do go there, it is with the intent of non-PvP activities, such as a few quests, Skyshards, stuff like that.

By the way, I find the snarky "Make a PvE variant with no Skyshards in it" comments to be pathetic. If you want to add limitations, why not limit it down to not getting PvP centered rewards, or not having access to certain merchants? Wouldn't that make more sense? Naaah, probably not as your head's stuck between your buttcheeks.

Only good PvP is Battleground PvP. That is a fact.

I think this mostly correct except I would say non CP pvp.

Grimm13

The op's idea can and would be abused. I consider myself more PVE that has played some PVP. Never a good idea to have a group that can observe those that have something at stake.

Casdha

The thing I had problems with in the early days was mitigated by the fact that you can have more than one guild and they can be from different factions.

While it would be fun to have a guild type where you would not have choose a faction for RP purposes, having a faction assigned to a guild only affects PvP. Folks have always been able to choose different factions on different characters and still be in the same guild.

Unlike the days before One Tamriel you can still group with characters from different factions and do anything in game together with the sole exception being PvP and you can even do that to some extent if you agree to not fight each other and use an external communication system.

Facefister

Ackwalan wrote: »

No way could this be abused.

How to balance it:
Every PvP objective has a certain radius where you'll be flagged as a PvP participant the moment you enter it.

Raammzzaa

As stated throughout this thread, don’t be scared. Go into Cyrodiil, and try it. You might find out you like it!

I love the threads that pop up after every Mayhem event by PvE players that went into Cyrodiil for the event and found out that they love PvP...

Personally, I once went in hoping to level the skill lines and I never left!

Aisle9

JJBoomer wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

No, no and no. Cyro is a pvp zone. The rest of the game is pve. This one zone, ONE ZONE, is pvp enabled.
Just suck it up and go explore. If you get killed then just rez and carry on.

factually incorrect given that there are non pvp quests in cyro.

Conquest missions
Scouting missions
Elder Scrolls capture missions
Bounty missions...

you should probably follow your own advice:

JJBoomer wrote: »

So i mean, you're wrong so just sit there in your wrongness and be wrong i guess? lol

pzschrek wrote: »

You can have your pve cyrodiil when I no longer have to run a single dungeon ever again to get bis gear on day 1 on demand without the golden.

I'm not sure it's you who gets to decide that

VaranisArano wrote: »

.. The prime example I can think of is the Murkmire damage shield changes where ZOS specifically targeted both PVE and PVP together, even though PVP changes would have been very easy to wrap into Battle Spirit.

Not to take away anything from your points, with which I agree so far, but there's a correction to be done here. The shield nerf was more of a PvE thing, to make healers more relevant. In fact it's just a cap, it's not affected by Battle Spirit, and hardly changes anything, with the exception of necro, 60k magicka magsorc build, stacking bastion, to buff empowered ward, which so few people ran it was hardly noticeable.

In BGs bastion is useless anyways (no CP) and we can still shield stack so, saying it was purely a PvP nerf is inaccurate.

In Cyrodiil


Outside Cyrodiil


The difference is less than 2k.

Again, I agree with most of what you said so far, but I'd be happier if we could drop the "it was a PvP nerf that affected PvE" argument altogether.

That doesn't mean I disagree with a PvE/PvP separation of core functionalities, I agree with the argument.

rootimus wrote: »

Oh, it's this thread, again.

Precisely (._. )

Casdha

If enough folks wanted this, to the point where ZOS actually had to listen, The easiest thing for them to do would be to just make a non combat campaign (one that would turn off PvP). You would still have to deal with NPC combat but not other players.

I highly doubt that they would do this, but it would be the easiest option. Much easier than getting them to make a new faction with new rules.

VaranisArano

Facefister wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

No way could this be abused.

How to balance it:
Every PvP objective has a certain radius where you'll be flagged as a PvP participant the moment you enter it.

Er, you do realize that since you get a 20% AP buff after killing a delve boss, all the delves are thus PVP objectives and a vital part of Emperorship pushes?

Or that dolmens in Cyrodiil have a chance to drop coldfire siege weapons, a potent weapon against players, making them a valid target for PVPers?

Or that a major part of PVP is moving through Cyrodiil from keep to keep, so that your proposal would have to either include all areas to and from keeps or else would criss cross Cyrodiil with oddly spaced "no-PVP" zones that would definitely be abused by PVPers to escape into? What happens if someone takes a scroll into one of those "no PVP" zones - as certain of the DC and EP scrolls pass nearby non-capturable towns on the way to and from their scroll temples?

Or that 3 of the 5 Cyrodiil towns with quests in them are capturable PVP objectives with flags?

Or that of the remaining two, Chorrol has a handy lava pit to throw scrolls into when people want to troll?


ZOS has had ample opportunity to make areas of Cyrodiil free of PVP and has not done so. If they wanted to, it would be simple to make the instanced delves such a zone, or to close off and instance the towns of Cheydinhal or Chorrol. They have obviously not done so. Instead, they have incorporated them into PVP such that PVPers have PVP reasons to go into these areas - not just to gank questers.

Your particular solution, in contrast, has problems that should be apparent to anyone who actually plays PVP in Cyrodiil and rife with the potential for abuse.

mikemacon

No.

Mr_Walker

pzschrek wrote: »

That’s easy to say from your position of privilege as a PVE player. ZOS actually cares about you.

#PrayForpzschrek

AlnilamE

So how many people who want this have actually been to Cyrodiil and tried getting the skyshards?

I have map completion on 2 characters and about 90% done on two others, along with several other alts that have a smattering of Cyrodiil objectives completed and with some minimal precautions, it's actually pretty chill.

Like, during Midyear Mayhem, I didn't have a lot of time to PvP, so every day I grabbed a scouting mission and completed it. Only once did I run into enemy characters between keeps and got killed. All the other days it was a quiet ride there and blood port back to base. If that's the case when you are actually approaching PvP objectives to scout them, the PvE objectives are going to be even quieter.

Casdha wrote: »

Unlike the days before One Tamriel you can still group with characters from different factions and do anything in game together with the sole exception being PvP and you can even do that to some extent if you agree to not fight each other and use an external communication system.

We actually did this once in the Unguided Tour and it was a blast. Our stipulation was that we needed a minimum of 2 players per alliance that was coming, so that if we killed them by accident the other person could rez them on the spot. We managed to not kill anyone while completing delves and getting skyshards.

And for our anniversary, we had a naked run through Cyrodiil starting at Kingscrest and going to the DC gates. We were all EP, and Teeth joined us on her AD character. We ran into a group of AD players near one of the DC keeps and they killed us before our "ambassador" could explain what was happening, but she made them feel really guilty after the fact. :-)

Emmagoldman

Log in to shor any time before 4pm and you are fine.

RedTalon

nm

Amphithoe

I updated my original post, taking into consideration some of what I learned here.

EdoKeledus

PvE contents has nothing hard especially if you have the guild/group. But some PvE player still looking for the ease. Stop bashing your little AI, think about a PvP build, come in Cyrodiil then fight for you skyshards and quests.