New "Neutral Party" Faction for PVE'ers wanting to explore Cyrodiil.

sha-ext

Goodness...
It is quite easy to avoid PvP in Cyro if you are just after PvE things in there.
Pick a slow campaign go in during off hours, slot some skills to get away (depending on class), as well as invisibility potions and most importantly: use your head.

This is a PvP zone and i really do not want ZOS to spend ressources on changes so that a handful of players can get a few shards and lorebooks and do some quests for a few hours.

Lloydmp

Can I have a solo mode for all dungeons cause I don’t like to PVE? Maybe a 4 man raid mode as well?

Beardimus

KnightsMentor wrote: »

A "Faction" for people who do not care for PVP but still would like to explore Cyrodiil for quests, delves, skyshards etc. This would also go neatly along with an alliance change token if one were ever to arrive.

When you start the game you wouldn't choose a faction until you have arrived in the world, at that point you can choose which banner to pledge your allegiance to, or you could choose neutrality. If you choose one alliance and decide to defect it could trigger interesting events like assassins being sent after you or even new quest lines, the sky's the limit.

As a strong PVE person, I feel like there's a huge part of the world kept away from me, so I hope the dev's take this into consideration. I'm also quite interested in hearing what you think of this, and your suggestions on how to expand upon it or a completely different approach.

Honnestly PvP is such a Small part of the game. I don't get this viewpoint. First of all there are plenty of ways to access all of cyrodiil without full on pvP if you plan, secondly why not give it a go.

I was a PvEer mainly until i found how disappointing trials are as an end game and how welcoming the PvP guilds are in comparison too. With the right guild.and mindset PvP can be alot of fun.

And if PvE neutral comes to Cyro to make PvEers happy then PvP on all overland needs to be a thing.

Akrasjel

Don't be silly

Try and play in a low pop campaign

Beardimus

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

I think they should add the 3 BG factions to Cyrodiil somehow... as a quest choice. Make these 3 factions into a mercenary type faction.

Somewhat humorously, the three BG factions are actually the same as the Cyrodiil factions. We saw this with the bug impacting the Alliance War Rider costume which used to change color to a different alliance in Battlegrounds.

While that bug was active, apparently Pit daemons was Ebonheart Pact, Fire Drakes was AD, and Storm Lords was DC.

It's still active on the hood at least. I have seen it this week on Xbox NA BG.

Kalgert

Lloydmp wrote: »

Can I have a solo mode for all dungeons cause I don’t like to PVE? Maybe a 4 man raid mode as well?

Sure, why not? I saw threads being made asking for story-mode dungeons, so I don't think this is too unreasonable of a request.

What IS unreasonable is idiots saying "Gief me all rewurdz fur nu effurt", because people like to go to unreasonable extremes in order to provide a counterargument that isn't even a counterargument.

pieratsos

Kalgert wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This would be the worst thing ever for PvP. Honestly PvE has more then PvP ever gets, we are the hated middle child of this game. It would end up being used to help fractions to exploit PvP even more so with less then tasteful decisions. You want those last achievements get them by actually participating in PvP and have some fun.

PvP is not fun. Not in this game anyway.

Besides, if I want to do PvP, I'll do it in Battlegrounds. At least there I feel some control over my ability in killing people and staying alive (And at least I go there with the full intent and consent that I'll get killed while possibly also killing people in return).

PvP in Cyrodiil is... Well, to say it politely: Hot steaming pile of garbage. Not only that, if I do go there, it is with the intent of non-PvP activities, such as a few quests, Skyshards, stuff like that.

By the way, I find the snarky "Make a PvE variant with no Skyshards in it" comments to be pathetic. If you want to add limitations, why not limit it down to not getting PvP centered rewards, or not having access to certain merchants? Wouldn't that make more sense? Naaah, probably not as your head's stuck between your buttcheeks.

Only good PvP is Battleground PvP. That is a fact.

You do realize that skyshard cyrodil achievements are pvp centered right? 3 of them are locked behind faction gates. Meaning, that you literally can't get them unless ur faction opens those gates through pvp activities(taking enemy keeps).

So either leave the gates open, or make it so you can get your faction's Skyshards, while having to get in to PvP to get the ones behind enemy gates.

Sounds fair, right?

Hold on hold on. Leave the gates open? So basically your defintion of fair is to change how PVP works because some people who dont care about PVP want to get a few skyshards. Wow mate, you take the word "entitled" to a whole new level. Whats next. Do you want ZOS to ban PVP players too, or simply deleting PVP is enough? You know, just to be sure. We dont want to dissapoint you.

Amphithoe

Browiseth wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

No, no and no. Cyro is a pvp zone. The rest of the game is pve. This one zone, ONE ZONE, is pvp enabled.
Just suck it up and go explore. If you get killed then just rez and carry on.

@Juju_beans
sooo... in your opinion, part of the experience for a lot of players should be to not have fun and dislike the experience in a video game that is supposed to be a fun experience? is that what you're saying? hmmm...

Sooo, in your opinion the one PvP zone players who enjoy PvP and do have fun should be disrupted by a bunch of players who can't be killed, ruining thier fun experience when the other 98% of the game has no PvP combat? Is that what you're saying?
Hmmmmm.....

@Kel oooh, you are good. i still feel i'm the sassier one though.

anyway, i'm actually not keen on this specific implementation of a "purely pve cyrodiil", i'd much rather it be a seperate campaign, that way the 2 sides of the community who dispute and hate eachother can be completely seperatr if they choose

emphasis on the word choose.

That's not the topic of this post. The topic of this post is having a unattackable faction in Cyrodiil.
People trying to move the goal posts not withstanding, it's just not what the zone was designed for, and I feel completely safe saying it's not going to happen one way or another.

@Kel
the topic of the post is to have a way for players who dislike pvp to be able to avoid it, a discussion that has on and offexisted for like 5 years now

i presented an alternate method of implementation. i don't really care what cyrodiil was "designed for", when the game first game out, classes were all designed to be magicka based, but enough people played stamina (and complained enough) that we now have stamina morphs for class abilities

i can't fathom how people can be so against allowing other players more choice

You do have a choice, however.
Enter Cyrodiil and face PvP, or avoid it.
That is your choice.

@Kel
clearly that choice isn't good enough, as this discussion still exists in (current year)

if i can speak my mind for a minute, I've always felt like people arguing against this are doing so from a point of selfishness. they feel offended that someone might get a skyshard or do a quest without the same threat they had to experience. it comes off as extremely petty to me.

at least, that's what i've observed, and i've more or less seen all the vapid arguments used to dismiss this conversation

I agree. Who does it hurt by having

pieratsos wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This would be the worst thing ever for PvP. Honestly PvE has more then PvP ever gets, we are the hated middle child of this game. It would end up being used to help fractions to exploit PvP even more so with less then tasteful decisions. You want those last achievements get them by actually participating in PvP and have some fun.

PvP is not fun. Not in this game anyway.

Besides, if I want to do PvP, I'll do it in Battlegrounds. At least there I feel some control over my ability in killing people and staying alive (And at least I go there with the full intent and consent that I'll get killed while possibly also killing people in return).

PvP in Cyrodiil is... Well, to say it politely: Hot steaming pile of garbage. Not only that, if I do go there, it is with the intent of non-PvP activities, such as a few quests, Skyshards, stuff like that.

By the way, I find the snarky "Make a PvE variant with no Skyshards in it" comments to be pathetic. If you want to add limitations, why not limit it down to not getting PvP centered rewards, or not having access to certain merchants? Wouldn't that make more sense? Naaah, probably not as your head's stuck between your buttcheeks.

Only good PvP is Battleground PvP. That is a fact.

You do realize that skyshard cyrodil achievements are pvp centered right? 3 of them are locked behind faction gates. Meaning, that you literally can't get them unless ur faction opens those gates through pvp activities(taking enemy keeps).

So either leave the gates open, or make it so you can get your faction's Skyshards, while having to get in to PvP to get the ones behind enemy gates.

Sounds fair, right?

Hold on hold on. Leave the gates open? So basically your defintion of fair is to change how PVP works because some people who dont care about PVP want to get a few skyshards. Wow mate, you take the word "entitled" to a whole new level. Whats next. Do you want ZOS to ban PVP players too, or simply deleting PVP is enough? You know, just to be sure. We dont want to dissapoint you.

PVE Cyrodiil Zone Outside PVP Cyrodiil campaign...
Would actually reduce load in a campaign removing those in there for PVE purposes.

pieratsos

KnightsMentor wrote: »

PVE Cyrodiil Zone Outside PVP Cyrodiil campaign...
Would actually reduce load in a campaign removing those in there for PVE purposes.

Look, its a really simple concept. You are playing an MMO. There is PVP, PVE, solo content, group content etc. Not everything is going to be tailored to your needs. This is kinda obvious. You cant satisfy everyone. Cyrodiil is a PVP zone. Its supposed to be a war zone. If you want to step foot into cyrodiil for whatever reason, you enable urself for PVP. It really isnt such a hard concept to grasp. Questing and skyshard farming in cyrodiil doesnt entail too much PVP. Hell you may not even have to do engage into any kind of PVP if you are lucky enough. But if you absolutely hate even the idea of another player attacking you then dont get into a PVP zone.

Seriously, removing any kind of PVE content like skyshards and quests from cyrodill is a much better solution than an entirely new PVE cyrodiil campaign. For starters, a peaceful cyrodiil makes no sense to begin with and it breaks the story of the game. But most importantly, it will literally create a sh*tstorm of complaints cause then everyone would have a reason to complain and ask for the game to be tailored around their needs. You want a PVE cyrodiil, i want a solo version of every single PVE content including trials. l cant be arsed finding capable groups of doing difficult content so i just want everything to have a vMA version as well. Why are you right and im wrong? Why am i right and you are wrong? What if the next guy wants something different. Where exactly do you draw the line.

DirkRavenclaw

ok, then please a option to have PVP in PVE Areas

Amphithoe

pieratsos wrote: »

KnightsMentor wrote: »

PVE Cyrodiil Zone Outside PVP Cyrodiil campaign...
Would actually reduce load in a campaign removing those in there for PVE purposes.

Look, its a really simple concept. You are playing an MMO. There is PVP, PVE, solo content, group content etc. Not everything is going to be tailored to your needs. This is kinda obvious. You cant satisfy everyone. Cyrodiil is a PVP zone. Its supposed to be a war zone. If you want to step foot into cyrodiil for whatever reason, you enable urself for PVP. It really isnt such a hard concept to grasp. Questing and skyshard farming in cyrodiil doesnt entail too much PVP. Hell you may not even have to do engage into any kind of PVP if you are lucky enough. But if you absolutely hate even the idea of another player attacking you then dont get into a PVP zone.

Seriously, removing any kind of PVE content like skyshards and quests from cyrodill is a much better solution than an entirely new PVE cyrodiil campaign. For starters, a peaceful cyrodiil makes no sense to begin with and it breaks the story of the game. But most importantly, it will literally create a sh*tstorm of complaints cause then everyone would have a reason to complain and ask for the game to be tailored around their needs. You want a PVE cyrodiil, i want a solo version of every single PVE content including trials. l cant be arsed finding capable groups of doing difficult content so i just want everything to have a vMA version as well. Why are you right and im wrong? Why am i right and you are wrong? What if the next guy wants something different. Where exactly do you draw the line.

So never change the game because people will voice opinions and wishes? And when did I ask for group PVE content to be made solo PVE content? The request is really simple, and for PVP'ers it would make no difference. Nothing would change the normal PVP campaigns, other than perhaps removing those few who run through the map for PVE purposes. And as for a peaceful Cyrodill I never said to end the conflict, I would say it could open up new avenues for quest's and story content to further delve into the war of the three banners.

Amphithoe

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

ok, then please a option to have PVP in PVE Areas

You have, it's called dueling.

MajBludd

No, if you want to see cyro so bad, put your big boy or big girl pants on and deal with it.

What if all pvp players started asking for pvp option on a cyro scale to be enabled in all pve zones

Kalgert

pieratsos wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This would be the worst thing ever for PvP. Honestly PvE has more then PvP ever gets, we are the hated middle child of this game. It would end up being used to help fractions to exploit PvP even more so with less then tasteful decisions. You want those last achievements get them by actually participating in PvP and have some fun.

PvP is not fun. Not in this game anyway.

Besides, if I want to do PvP, I'll do it in Battlegrounds. At least there I feel some control over my ability in killing people and staying alive (And at least I go there with the full intent and consent that I'll get killed while possibly also killing people in return).

PvP in Cyrodiil is... Well, to say it politely: Hot steaming pile of garbage. Not only that, if I do go there, it is with the intent of non-PvP activities, such as a few quests, Skyshards, stuff like that.

By the way, I find the snarky "Make a PvE variant with no Skyshards in it" comments to be pathetic. If you want to add limitations, why not limit it down to not getting PvP centered rewards, or not having access to certain merchants? Wouldn't that make more sense? Naaah, probably not as your head's stuck between your buttcheeks.

Only good PvP is Battleground PvP. That is a fact.

You do realize that skyshard cyrodil achievements are pvp centered right? 3 of them are locked behind faction gates. Meaning, that you literally can't get them unless ur faction opens those gates through pvp activities(taking enemy keeps).

So either leave the gates open, or make it so you can get your faction's Skyshards, while having to get in to PvP to get the ones behind enemy gates.

Sounds fair, right?

Hold on hold on. Leave the gates open? So basically your defintion of fair is to change how PVP works because some people who dont care about PVP want to get a few skyshards. Wow mate, you take the word "entitled" to a whole new level. Whats next. Do you want ZOS to ban PVP players too, or simply deleting PVP is enough? You know, just to be sure. We dont want to dissapoint you.

In the context of "Separate PvE Cyrodiil Canpaign", yes, leave the gates open.

And I could give less of a damn about PvP players. If I want to interact with them, I'll play Battlegrounds, or if I suffered a head injury: Go to PvP Cyrodiil. Otherwise I'd be sticking to the rest of the world, or go to PvE Cyrodiil if it were there.

Comprende?

Amphithoe

MajBludd wrote: »

No, if you want to see cyro so bad, put your big boy or big girl pants on and deal with it.

What if all pvp players started asking for pvp option to be enabled in all pve zones?

I refer to my previous answer, and as to which pants I wear its none of your business.

Kalgert

KnightsMentor wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

No, if you want to see cyro so bad, put your big boy or big girl pants on and deal with it.

What if all pvp players started asking for pvp option to be enabled in all pve zones?

I refer to my previous answer, and as to which pants I wear its none of your business.

Apparently dueling isn't good enough to these people. No idea why, I guess because they need someone's consent to do PvP with them? Oh for shame!

Browiseth

MajBludd wrote: »

No, if you want to see cyro so bad, put your big boy or big girl pants on and deal with it.

What if all pvp players started asking for pvp option on a cyro scale to be enabled in all pve zones

you mean like... dueling? to a lesser extent, battlegrounds? i guess the difference there is that it's an agreement between all involved players beforehand, which is pretty nice

i'm not sure what being a big boy with big boy pants has to do with anything, though

lol

MajBludd

I'm not talking about dueling. I said on a cyro level. Obviously you do not comprehend, @kalgert.

If you make a neutral faction for cyro, which op is asking, it wil cause even more server strain and further screw pvp players over because pve'rs want to quest in a pvp zone, understand?

If you took vivec's pop and dumped it into summerset and allowed us to pvp on that scale, what do you think it will do to Summerset zone performance?

A pve only cyro, good idea. A neutral faction on pvp servers, bad idea.

Amphithoe

Browiseth wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

No, if you want to see cyro so bad, put your big boy or big girl pants on and deal with it.

What if all pvp players started asking for pvp option on a cyro scale to be enabled in all pve zones

you mean like... dueling? to a lesser extent, battlegrounds? i guess the difference there is that it's an agreement between all involved players beforehand, which is pretty nice

i'm not sure what being a big boy with big boy pants has to do with anything, though

lol

MajBludd

@KnightsMentor @Browiseth so you didn't comprehend what I wrote either, huh? Battlegrounds are not a pve zone, genius. Or did you want a neutral faction for that too?

VaranisArano

There's are problems with the "PVP isnt fun for me, so ZOS should cater to me and give me a PVE only Cyrodiil so I can have fun in this video game argument."

I'm going to look at why ZOS cares less about your fun and more about overall benefits for the players when ZOS expects players to experience Cyrodiil as a PVP zone to get rewards.

1. ZOS wants players to experience all parts of the game, not just the games they personally prefer. This is perhaps obvious business sense as they don't want players to stagnant. Some players will happily play one game mode or the other for years, but many other players will find enjoyment from both and thus prolong their play time in ESO as they experience different types of content.

However, we also see an increasing emphasis on this in recent Updates and especially Festivals. If you want the first Dawnwood berries right away or you want the rewards of Midyear Mayhem or the Imperial City event, you must risk PVP. In a similar fashion, look at the Hollowjack Festival which rewarded players for everything from delves to arenas and trials for a full range of PVE bosses.

We continually see that ZOS desires players to experience ALL game modes available in ESO and gates rewards, achievements, and festival rewards behind that content in order to draw more players out of their comfort zones.

2. ZOS specifically balances ESO around both PVP and PVE. We see this every update. We see this with the Class Representatives who are knowledgeable about BOTH PVE and PVP. Therefore, ESO benefits when its player base has an understanding of how skills, classes, and gear work in both PVP and PVE environments. Drawing PVE-only players into Cyrodiil by means of rewards like skyshards, achievements, titles, fish, and festivals is one way to accomplish this goal.

3. The rewards most PVE players care about in Cyrodiil (skyshards, delve achievements, quest achievements, dolmen achievement/title, and Master Angler) are explicitly intended for players who have participated or completed ALL of the base game content. As base game content, Cyrodiil has always been PVP, therefore its clear that from the beginning, the Devs designed these achievements in the full knowledge that players would have to enter a PVP-enabled zone.

For example, the "Savior of Nirn" title requires breaking Dark Anchors in all three alliance PVE zones and Cyrodiil. If you want the title, it is working as intended that you must go to Cyrodiil, which was always a PVP-enabled zone and includes the Bruma anchor smack in the middle of a PVP-objective town to complete it.

Furthermore, for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement and dye, while you yourself do not have to ever draw your weapons, you are reliant upon your fellow Alliance War fighters to attack the enemy scroll keeps and storm the scroll temples so that you can slip behind enemy lines and gain 4 of the necessary skyshards. That's 6 to 8 keeps that must be captured for you to get your skyshards - quite a bit of deliberately included PVP.


TLDR:
Over the entire game population, if not exactly in an individual level,

1. ZOS wants players to get out of their comfort zone and experience ALL of the game content to get ALL the rewards.
2. ZOS prefers that players be knowledgeable about PVE and PVP because they balance the game with both in mind.
3. The way the rewards were designed was clearly with Cyrodiil as a PVP zone in mind and that has shown no sign of changing (likely because of the benefits of 1 and 2).



In conclusion, ZOS did not gate rewards behind PVP zones by accident. It is deliberate, intended, and beneficial for the game as a whole for Players to leave their PVE comfort zones and experience PVP zones.

It may not be beneficial for an individual player to enter PVP - hence the "but video games should be fun, and PVP isnt fun for me, so I should get to skip it" argument. The counter to that argument looks at the benefits to the game as a whole, and assuming the benefits of rewards drawing PVE-only players into PVP Cyrodiil continue to achieve the Devs aims of encouraging players to try ALL the game modes and educating players about future balance for PVE and PVP, I fully expect the current system to continue on as it is.



Or to be extremely blunt, ESO is clearly not and never was designed around a mindsight of "Video games should be fun and if this isn't fun for me I should get to skip it and get the rewards."

ESO is more like "If something isn't fun for you, I guess you'll miss out. It'll be there if you decide you want it badly enough to try it out. If you never do, no sweat." That's by design, because they want players to do ALL the content, not pick, choose, and skip and get all the rewards anyway.

IzzyStardust

KnightsMentor wrote: »

A "Faction" for people who do not care for PVP but still would like to explore Cyrodiil for quests, delves, skyshards etc. This would also go neatly along with an alliance change token if one were ever to arrive.

When you start the game you wouldn't choose a faction until you have arrived in the world, at that point you can choose which banner to pledge your allegiance to, or you could choose neutrality. If you choose one alliance and decide to defect it could trigger interesting events like assassins being sent after you or even new quest lines, the sky's the limit.

As a strong PVE person, I feel like there's a huge part of the world kept away from me, so I hope the dev's take this into consideration. I'm also quite interested in hearing what you think of this, and your suggestions on how to expand upon it or a completely different approach.

I think no. Sorry but is PvP land. Now if any faction can PK the no factions, then I’m in ;-)

IzzyStardust

Dbl post

Amphithoe

MajBludd wrote: »

@KnightsMentor @Browiseth so you didn't comprehend what I wrote either, huh? Battlegrounds are not a pve zone, genius. Or did you want a neutral faction for that too?

It's more about your tone really. After reading your comment I now agree that a neutral faction is a bad idea. But I still would like to see the option to abstain from pledging allegiance to any banner in the mid-game unless you are sure right away which one to choose, so in that sense, I would like a "neutral faction" or "neutral state".

Knootewoot

Browiseth wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

No, no and no. Cyro is a pvp zone. The rest of the game is pve. This one zone, ONE ZONE, is pvp enabled.
Just suck it up and go explore. If you get killed then just rez and carry on.

@Juju_beans
sooo... in your opinion, part of the experience for a lot of players should be to not have fun and dislike the experience in a video game that is supposed to be a fun experience? is that what you're saying? hmmm...

PvP ers have to do that. In order to get master weapons and VMA weapons, helmets and other (bop) armors they have to PvE. Whether they like it or not. Same goes for skills trees like mageguild/fightersguild/undaunted/psijisc etc.

So, should they be handed to PvP'ers just like that? Maybe in a mob free dungeon? Because not all of them thinking dungeons are a fun experience. But they do want the monster helmets.

Browiseth

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's are problems with the "PVP isnt fun for me, so ZOS should cater to me and give me a PVE only Cyrodiil so I can have fun in this video game argument."

I'm going to look at why ZOS cares less about your fun and more about overall benefits for the players when ZOS expects players to experience Cyrodiil as a PVP zone to get rewards.

1. ZOS wants players to experience all parts of the game, not just the games they personally prefer. This is perhaps obvious business sense as they don't want players to stagnant. Some players will happily play one game mode or the other for years, but many other players will find enjoyment from both and thus prolong their play time in ESO as they experience different types of content.

However, we also see an increasing emphasis on this in recent Updates and especially Festivals. If you want the first Dawnwood berries right away or you want the rewards of Midyear Mayhem or the Imperial City event, you must risk PVP. In a similar fashion, look at the Hollowjack Festival which rewarded players for everything from delves to arenas and trials for a full range of PVE bosses.

We continually see that ZOS desires players to experience ALL game modes available in ESO and gates rewards, achievements, and festival rewards behind that content in order to draw more players out of their comfort zones.

2. ZOS specifically balances ESO around both PVP and PVE. We see this every update. We see this with the Class Representatives who are knowledgeable about BOTH PVE and PVP. Therefore, ESO benefits when its player base has an understanding of how skills, classes, and gear work in both PVP and PVE environments. Drawing PVE-only players into Cyrodiil by means of rewards like skyshards, achievements, titles, fish, and festivals is one way to accomplish this goal.

3. The rewards most PVE players care about in Cyrodiil (skyshards, delve achievements, quest achievements, dolmen achievement/title, and Master Angler) are explicitly intended for players who have participated or completed ALL of the base game content. As base game content, Cyrodiil has always been PVP, therefore its clear that from the beginning, the Devs designed these achievements in the full knowledge that players would have to enter a PVP-enabled zone.

For example, the "Savior of Nirn" title requires breaking Dark Anchors in all three alliance PVE zones and Cyrodiil. If you want the title, it is working as intended that you must go to Cyrodiil, which was always a PVP-enabled zone and includes the Bruma anchor smack in the middle of a PVP-objective town to complete it.

Furthermore, for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement and dye, while you yourself do not have to ever draw your weapons, you are reliant upon your fellow Alliance War fighters to attack the enemy scroll keeps and storm the scroll temples so that you can slip behind enemy lines and gain 4 of the necessary skyshards. That's 6 to 8 keeps that must be captured for you to get your skyshards - quite a bit of deliberately included PVP.


TLDR:
Over the entire game population, if not exactly in an individual level,

1. ZOS wants players to get out of their comfort zone and experience ALL of the game content to get ALL the rewards.
2. ZOS prefers that players be knowledgeable about PVE and PVP because they balance the game with both in mind.
3. The way the rewards were designed was clearly with Cyrodiil as a PVP zone in mind and that has shown no sign of changing (likely because of the benefits of 1 and 2).



In conclusion, ZOS did not gate rewards behind PVP zones by accident. It is deliberate, intended, and beneficial for the game as a whole for Players to leave their PVE comfort zones and experience PVP zones.

It may not be beneficial for an individual player to enter PVP - hence the "but video games should be fun, and PVP isnt fun for me, so I should get to skip it" argument. The counter to that argument looks at the benefits to the game as a whole, and assuming the benefits of rewards drawing PVE-only players into PVP Cyrodiil continue to achieve the Devs aims of encouraging players to try ALL the game modes and educating players about future balance for PVE and PVP, I fully expect the current system to continue on as it is.



Or to be extremely blunt, ESO is clearly not and never was designed around a mindsight of "Video games should be fun and if this isn't fun for me I should get to skip it and get the rewards."

ESO is more like "If something isn't fun for you, I guess you'll miss out. It'll be there if you decide you want it badly enough to try it out. If you never do, no sweat." That's by design, because they want players to do ALL the content, not pick, choose, and skip and get all the rewards anyway.

@VaranisArano

you raise some very good points my friend. i feel it delves into the issue of why zos shouldn't keep the same balance across both sides of the game, and more importantly, how they already have broken that mindset (see: battle spirit or whatever its called)

you're very correct on several fronts though, i just feel your points don't take a lot of things into context, like battle level and the fact this divide is just always going to exist

Kalgert

Knootewoot wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

No, no and no. Cyro is a pvp zone. The rest of the game is pve. This one zone, ONE ZONE, is pvp enabled.
Just suck it up and go explore. If you get killed then just rez and carry on.

@Juju_beans
sooo... in your opinion, part of the experience for a lot of players should be to not have fun and dislike the experience in a video game that is supposed to be a fun experience? is that what you're saying? hmmm...

PvP ers have to do that. In order to get master weapons and VMA weapons, helmets and other (bop) armors they have to PvE. Whether they like it or not. Same goes for skills trees like mageguild/fightersguild/undaunted/psijisc etc.

So, should they be handed to PvP'ers just like that? Maybe in a mob free dungeon? Because not all of them thinking dungeons are a fun experience. But they do want the monster helmets.

Isn't that what the Weekly Merchant does? Sell Monster sets in Cyrodiil for gold and Alliance Points?

In regards to the PvE guild bonuses: Fighters Guild and Mages Guild are really simple, in the sense that one has you kill undead and Daedra, the other has you collect books, both that could pitentially also be done in Cyrodiil.

Undaunted and Psijic are another matter though.

VaranisArano

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's are problems with the "PVP isnt fun for me, so ZOS should cater to me and give me a PVE only Cyrodiil so I can have fun in this video game argument."

I'm going to look at why ZOS cares less about your fun and more about overall benefits for the players when ZOS expects players to experience Cyrodiil as a PVP zone to get rewards.

1. ZOS wants players to experience all parts of the game, not just the games they personally prefer. This is perhaps obvious business sense as they don't want players to stagnant. Some players will happily play one game mode or the other for years, but many other players will find enjoyment from both and thus prolong their play time in ESO as they experience different types of content.

However, we also see an increasing emphasis on this in recent Updates and especially Festivals. If you want the first Dawnwood berries right away or you want the rewards of Midyear Mayhem or the Imperial City event, you must risk PVP. In a similar fashion, look at the Hollowjack Festival which rewarded players for everything from delves to arenas and trials for a full range of PVE bosses.

We continually see that ZOS desires players to experience ALL game modes available in ESO and gates rewards, achievements, and festival rewards behind that content in order to draw more players out of their comfort zones.

2. ZOS specifically balances ESO around both PVP and PVE. We see this every update. We see this with the Class Representatives who are knowledgeable about BOTH PVE and PVP. Therefore, ESO benefits when its player base has an understanding of how skills, classes, and gear work in both PVP and PVE environments. Drawing PVE-only players into Cyrodiil by means of rewards like skyshards, achievements, titles, fish, and festivals is one way to accomplish this goal.

3. The rewards most PVE players care about in Cyrodiil (skyshards, delve achievements, quest achievements, dolmen achievement/title, and Master Angler) are explicitly intended for players who have participated or completed ALL of the base game content. As base game content, Cyrodiil has always been PVP, therefore its clear that from the beginning, the Devs designed these achievements in the full knowledge that players would have to enter a PVP-enabled zone.

For example, the "Savior of Nirn" title requires breaking Dark Anchors in all three alliance PVE zones and Cyrodiil. If you want the title, it is working as intended that you must go to Cyrodiil, which was always a PVP-enabled zone and includes the Bruma anchor smack in the middle of a PVP-objective town to complete it.

Furthermore, for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement and dye, while you yourself do not have to ever draw your weapons, you are reliant upon your fellow Alliance War fighters to attack the enemy scroll keeps and storm the scroll temples so that you can slip behind enemy lines and gain 4 of the necessary skyshards. That's 6 to 8 keeps that must be captured for you to get your skyshards - quite a bit of deliberately included PVP.


TLDR:
Over the entire game population, if not exactly in an individual level,

1. ZOS wants players to get out of their comfort zone and experience ALL of the game content to get ALL the rewards.
2. ZOS prefers that players be knowledgeable about PVE and PVP because they balance the game with both in mind.
3. The way the rewards were designed was clearly with Cyrodiil as a PVP zone in mind and that has shown no sign of changing (likely because of the benefits of 1 and 2).



In conclusion, ZOS did not gate rewards behind PVP zones by accident. It is deliberate, intended, and beneficial for the game as a whole for Players to leave their PVE comfort zones and experience PVP zones.

It may not be beneficial for an individual player to enter PVP - hence the "but video games should be fun, and PVP isnt fun for me, so I should get to skip it" argument. The counter to that argument looks at the benefits to the game as a whole, and assuming the benefits of rewards drawing PVE-only players into PVP Cyrodiil continue to achieve the Devs aims of encouraging players to try ALL the game modes and educating players about future balance for PVE and PVP, I fully expect the current system to continue on as it is.



Or to be extremely blunt, ESO is clearly not and never was designed around a mindsight of "Video games should be fun and if this isn't fun for me I should get to skip it and get the rewards."

ESO is more like "If something isn't fun for you, I guess you'll miss out. It'll be there if you decide you want it badly enough to try it out. If you never do, no sweat." That's by design, because they want players to do ALL the content, not pick, choose, and skip and get all the rewards anyway.

@VaranisArano

you raise some very good points my friend. i feel it delves into the issue of why zos shouldn't keep the same balance across both sides of the game, and more importantly, how they already have broken that mindset (see: battle spirit or whatever its called)

you're very correct on several fronts though, i just feel your points don't take a lot of things into context, like battle level and the fact this divide is just always going to exist

To address your points, which are good, in more detail:

Balancing PVE and PVP together - we can argue whether or not ZOS should do this, but the fact remains that this is how they balance the game (rather imperfectly, IMO). Because that's how they are apparently committed to balancing ESO rather than any of the alternatives like a more robust Battle Spirit, my point remains that the Devs prefer that the playerbase be knowledgeable about both PVP and PVE. Recently, I think that with the Class Rep system they've committed more to balancing together than the other way 'round.

Until ZOS changes their methodology for balancing PVE and PVP together, its beneficial for them to encourage players to experience all levels of PVP and a PVP game modes, and indeed we see them encouraging players to do this with festivals and rewards.



As for the PVE/PVP divide, yes, it will always exist. Some players just prefer one or the other. Some wouldn't do PVP if you paid them, etc. Some players do PVE for ten levels and hop into Cyrodiil/BGs and only come out to get PVP gear.

Nevertheless, since ZOS has committed to balancing both game modes together, its in ZOS' best interests to encourage players to play ALL of the game. That's true from several perspectives.
1. Player longevity - players who enjoy multiple aspects of ESO are less likely to leave if ZOS nerfs their one thing they like about the game
2. Players may change their mind with experience. I'm in this boat. I was solidly anti-PVP, but repeated exposure to it brought me round and now I'm a PVPer. My SO, on the other hand, tried PVP because I liked it and found they didn't care for it with repeated exposure.
3. More knowledgable players. With balancing changes having impacts in PVP and PVE, its important that the player community not have a rigid split in PVP vs PVE. Instead, when many players have at least a little experience in both, it promotes greater understanding of how balance changes impact the game in both modes.

So even though there will always be players who don't enjoy or even want to experience PVP, its still beneficial for ZOS to encourage players to experience it. Offering rewards for doing so is a way to draw players out of their comfort zones into different content.


So, I dont think that ZOS is ever going to get 100% of players to experience PVP or PVPers to love PVE no matrer how beneficial it might be. Still, as long as ZOS balances PVE and PVP together as they currently do, it is good for the health of the game community for ZOS to encourage players to experience ALL of the game modes both in PVE and PVP.

Which is why the Devs do it that way. If they ever seperate PVP and PVE fully, then I think there's an argument to be made for seperating PVE out of Cyrodiil as well.

Browiseth

VaranisArano wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's are problems with the "PVP isnt fun for me, so ZOS should cater to me and give me a PVE only Cyrodiil so I can have fun in this video game argument."

I'm going to look at why ZOS cares less about your fun and more about overall benefits for the players when ZOS expects players to experience Cyrodiil as a PVP zone to get rewards.

1. ZOS wants players to experience all parts of the game, not just the games they personally prefer. This is perhaps obvious business sense as they don't want players to stagnant. Some players will happily play one game mode or the other for years, but many other players will find enjoyment from both and thus prolong their play time in ESO as they experience different types of content.

However, we also see an increasing emphasis on this in recent Updates and especially Festivals. If you want the first Dawnwood berries right away or you want the rewards of Midyear Mayhem or the Imperial City event, you must risk PVP. In a similar fashion, look at the Hollowjack Festival which rewarded players for everything from delves to arenas and trials for a full range of PVE bosses.

We continually see that ZOS desires players to experience ALL game modes available in ESO and gates rewards, achievements, and festival rewards behind that content in order to draw more players out of their comfort zones.

2. ZOS specifically balances ESO around both PVP and PVE. We see this every update. We see this with the Class Representatives who are knowledgeable about BOTH PVE and PVP. Therefore, ESO benefits when its player base has an understanding of how skills, classes, and gear work in both PVP and PVE environments. Drawing PVE-only players into Cyrodiil by means of rewards like skyshards, achievements, titles, fish, and festivals is one way to accomplish this goal.

3. The rewards most PVE players care about in Cyrodiil (skyshards, delve achievements, quest achievements, dolmen achievement/title, and Master Angler) are explicitly intended for players who have participated or completed ALL of the base game content. As base game content, Cyrodiil has always been PVP, therefore its clear that from the beginning, the Devs designed these achievements in the full knowledge that players would have to enter a PVP-enabled zone.

For example, the "Savior of Nirn" title requires breaking Dark Anchors in all three alliance PVE zones and Cyrodiil. If you want the title, it is working as intended that you must go to Cyrodiil, which was always a PVP-enabled zone and includes the Bruma anchor smack in the middle of a PVP-objective town to complete it.

Furthermore, for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement and dye, while you yourself do not have to ever draw your weapons, you are reliant upon your fellow Alliance War fighters to attack the enemy scroll keeps and storm the scroll temples so that you can slip behind enemy lines and gain 4 of the necessary skyshards. That's 6 to 8 keeps that must be captured for you to get your skyshards - quite a bit of deliberately included PVP.


TLDR:
Over the entire game population, if not exactly in an individual level,

1. ZOS wants players to get out of their comfort zone and experience ALL of the game content to get ALL the rewards.
2. ZOS prefers that players be knowledgeable about PVE and PVP because they balance the game with both in mind.
3. The way the rewards were designed was clearly with Cyrodiil as a PVP zone in mind and that has shown no sign of changing (likely because of the benefits of 1 and 2).



In conclusion, ZOS did not gate rewards behind PVP zones by accident. It is deliberate, intended, and beneficial for the game as a whole for Players to leave their PVE comfort zones and experience PVP zones.

It may not be beneficial for an individual player to enter PVP - hence the "but video games should be fun, and PVP isnt fun for me, so I should get to skip it" argument. The counter to that argument looks at the benefits to the game as a whole, and assuming the benefits of rewards drawing PVE-only players into PVP Cyrodiil continue to achieve the Devs aims of encouraging players to try ALL the game modes and educating players about future balance for PVE and PVP, I fully expect the current system to continue on as it is.



Or to be extremely blunt, ESO is clearly not and never was designed around a mindsight of "Video games should be fun and if this isn't fun for me I should get to skip it and get the rewards."

ESO is more like "If something isn't fun for you, I guess you'll miss out. It'll be there if you decide you want it badly enough to try it out. If you never do, no sweat." That's by design, because they want players to do ALL the content, not pick, choose, and skip and get all the rewards anyway.

@VaranisArano

you raise some very good points my friend. i feel it delves into the issue of why zos shouldn't keep the same balance across both sides of the game, and more importantly, how they already have broken that mindset (see: battle spirit or whatever its called)

you're very correct on several fronts though, i just feel your points don't take a lot of things into context, like battle level and the fact this divide is just always going to exist

To address your points, which are good, in more detail:

Balancing PVE and PVP together - we can argue whether or not ZOS should do this, but the fact remains that this is how they balance the game (rather imperfectly, IMO). Because that's how they are apparently committed to balancing ESO rather than any of the alternatives like a more robust Battle Spirit, my point remains that the Devs prefer that the playerbase be knowledgeable about both PVP and PVE. Recently, I think that with the Class Rep system they've committed more to balancing together than the other way 'round.

Until ZOS changes their methodology for balancing PVE and PVP together, its beneficial for them to encourage players to experience all levels of PVP and a PVP game modes, and indeed we see them encouraging players to do this with festivals and rewards.



As for the PVE/PVP divide, yes, it will always exist. Some players just prefer one or the other. Some wouldn't do PVP if you paid them, etc. Some players do PVE for ten levels and hop into Cyrodiil/BGs and only come out to get PVP gear.

Nevertheless, since ZOS has committed to balancing both game modes together, its in ZOS' best interests to encourage players to play ALL of the game. That's true from several perspectives.
1. Player longevity - players who enjoy multiple aspects of ESO are less likely to leave if ZOS nerfs their one thing they like about the game
2. Players may change their mind with experience. I'm in this boat. I was solidly anti-PVP, but repeated exposure to it brought me round and now I'm a PVPer. My SO, on the other hand, tried PVP because I liked it and found they didn't care for it with repeated exposure.
3. More knowledgable players. With balancing changes having impacts in PVP and PVE, its important that the player community not have a rigid split in PVP vs PVE. Instead, when many players have at least a little experience in both, it promotes greater understanding of how balance changes impact the game in both modes.

So even though there will always be players who don't enjoy or even want to experience PVP, its still beneficial for ZOS to encourage players to experience it. Offering rewards for doing so is a way to draw players out of their comfort zones into different content.


So, I dont think that ZOS is ever going to get 100% of players to experience PVP or PVPers to love PVE no matrer how beneficial it might be. Still, as long as ZOS balances PVE and PVP together as they currently do, it is good for the health of the game community for ZOS to encourage players to experience ALL of the game modes both in PVE and PVP.

Which is why the Devs do it that way. If they ever seperate PVP and PVE fully, then I think there's an argument to be made for seperating PVE out of Cyrodiil as well.

i feel you might have brushed over my point on battle spirit to be honest

it strikes me as hypocritical on zos's part that they claim to want to balance pve and pvp the same when in fact, healing is already halved in cyrodiil, everyone already has 5k extra hp in cyrodiil

that is proof that the two sides of the game cannot co exist or at the very least, cannot be balanced the same way

pzschrek

You can have your pve cyrodiil when I no longer have to run a single dungeon ever again to get bis gear on day 1 on demand without the golden.