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What's considered good DPS?

  • Morgha_Kul
    Morgha_Kul
    ✭✭✭✭
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.
    Exploring Tamriel since 1994.
  • pat_thetic
    There is no "slippery slope" either. The game caters very well to both, a beginner/role player/ casual that enjoys questing the overland content and doing delves, to the end gamers pushing leaderboard scores with the newest/hardest DLC content. Even the in between characters can be challenged with the arenas and DLC dungeons
  • SugaComa
    SugaComa
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    So, I was visiting a guildmate's house, and he had this target dummy (the Precursor). Just for the fun of it, I decided to attack it, and when it was defeated, I got a message that told me my DPS. This came as a surprise, but I'm not sure what is considered good, what is considered adequate, what is considered bad... So, I don't know where I stand.

    In case you're curious, I did 3265.0 DPS in 1m39s with my Restoration Staff and Templar spells... Mind you, I was just fooling around, I'm sure I could do more.

    I'm not a true DD and I can kill that thing in 15 seconds ... I've s friend who can do it in just over 1 second .

    Precursor however gives no sense of true DD ability as you don't need to sustain on it ... But it's good for testing PvP builds
  • KMarble
    KMarble
    ✭✭
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.

    I'm confused. Do you want to do higher level content or not?

    If your answer is yes, you want to be able to do that with minor effort - just change a few pieces of gear/jewelry/weapons (I'm assuming that you do have the skills to do so. I'm not talking about the skills on the bar, I'm referring to skills that you - the person pushing buttons have).

    Let me give you a practical example: I main a petsorc and for now I'm mostly doing quests, with my main focus being to finish Cadwell's Gold. For that I'm using 5 pieces of Juliano's, 2 or 3 pieces of Necropotence, a monster shoulder that gives me health (can't remember the name) and Plague doctor jewelry. My main gets 25k of health after eating bread.
    I can use that char to go into normal dungeons with no problem, BUT when I shift my focus to group content I will be changing my gear/weapons/jewelry to be able to help more. I'm pretty sure I won't be the best DPS in any group (my - the player - skills are subpar), but I will be able to do my part in any dungeon I enter.
  • hakan
    hakan
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.

    i mean even if you do 30k dps, they wont be trivial. so youve got a lot of room to improve, dont need to worry about that :)

    Like look at some of the streamers dungeon videos like alcast's. they still have a hard time with some content even with 50k dps.
  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.

    This is an incorrect assumption. I do weekly vet hardmode trials, and can clear almost all content in this game, but I still enjoy running a new toon through older content from time to time. When a group and I have a particularly grueling run at something, and maybe it doesn't go well, I always queue us up to do a normal Vaults of Madness run afterward, because it's still my favorite base game content and it's fun and refreshing to do something like that from time to time. I always like to end every run on a positive note.

    Also, if the ends are brought closer together, that by definition means lowering the bar. That would spell the end of any sort of progression in this game and resign the rest of us to a low level of mediocre game play only because someone "didn't want to" work to improve themselves.

    Xbox NA
  • Morgha_Kul
    Morgha_Kul
    ✭✭✭✭
    pat_thetic wrote: »
    There is no "slippery slope" either. The game caters very well to both, a beginner/role player/ casual that enjoys questing the overland content and doing delves, to the end gamers pushing leaderboard scores with the newest/hardest DLC content. Even the in between characters can be challenged with the arenas and DLC dungeons

    The slippery slope I refer to is something I've seen over and over for years. They may not yet have fallen into the trap, but the trap is set, and I'm simply worried they'll spring it sooner or later. As I explained before, the concern is that, in order to give the high end players stuff to do, they start making everything in the game for that level of dps... which will then exclude everyone else. I explained how this happened in STO, but I've seen it in so many other games.
    KMarble wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.

    I'm confused. Do you want to do higher level content or not?

    If your answer is yes, you want to be able to do that with minor effort - just change a few pieces of gear/jewelry/weapons (I'm assuming that you do have the skills to do so. I'm not talking about the skills on the bar, I'm referring to skills that you - the person pushing buttons have).

    I would like to do higher level content. However, I don't want to do it at the expense of being able to enjoy the lower level content.
    p00tx wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.

    This is an incorrect assumption. I do weekly vet hardmode trials, and can clear almost all content in this game, but I still enjoy running a new toon through older content from time to time. When a group and I have a particularly grueling run at something, and maybe it doesn't go well, I always queue us up to do a normal Vaults of Madness run afterward, because it's still my favorite base game content and it's fun and refreshing to do something like that from time to time. I always like to end every run on a positive note.

    Also, if the ends are brought closer together, that by definition means lowering the bar. That would spell the end of any sort of progression in this game and resign the rest of us to a low level of mediocre game play only because someone "didn't want to" work to improve themselves.

    You are doing content on two different characters... precisely because the lower level content is trivial to one of them. Your Vet Hardmode character will face no challenge at all from normal content. You're saying that bringing the ends of the bar closer together would make everything mediocre. I'm saying I just don't want anything to be trivial, but also not overwhelming. EVERYTHING should present some kind of challenge.

    In my view, your Vet Hardmode character should find normal content easier, but still a challenge if you're not careful; and at the same time be capable of the Vet Hardmode stuff... while MY normal character should find a challenge in the normal stuff, but not be completely incapable of contributing to the Vet Hardmode content. I don't see that as everything being mediocre, I see that as everything being interesting.

    Also, as a side point, characters with gigantic dps can often spoil things for OTHER characters. I've been busy enjoying spelunking in a cave or ruin, only to have everything in the delve wiped out in the blink of an eye before I can even move. Now, it doesn't happen often, but the point is that excessive dps can also affect other people's gameplay.

    In any case, my original question has been answered, and there has been ample discussion now to elaborate on my point, so I believe I'll stop here.
    Exploring Tamriel since 1994.
  • p00tx
    p00tx
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    pat_thetic wrote: »
    There is no "slippery slope" either. The game caters very well to both, a beginner/role player/ casual that enjoys questing the overland content and doing delves, to the end gamers pushing leaderboard scores with the newest/hardest DLC content. Even the in between characters can be challenged with the arenas and DLC dungeons

    The slippery slope I refer to is something I've seen over and over for years. They may not yet have fallen into the trap, but the trap is set, and I'm simply worried they'll spring it sooner or later. As I explained before, the concern is that, in order to give the high end players stuff to do, they start making everything in the game for that level of dps... which will then exclude everyone else. I explained how this happened in STO, but I've seen it in so many other games.
    KMarble wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.

    I'm confused. Do you want to do higher level content or not?

    If your answer is yes, you want to be able to do that with minor effort - just change a few pieces of gear/jewelry/weapons (I'm assuming that you do have the skills to do so. I'm not talking about the skills on the bar, I'm referring to skills that you - the person pushing buttons have).

    I would like to do higher level content. However, I don't want to do it at the expense of being able to enjoy the lower level content.
    p00tx wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    @Morgha_Kul i fully realize i may come off as a real piece of work when i say this but....

    Have you ever stopped and considered that perhaps it is your own inadequacies that could use some improvement? Because i promise you, this right here...

    "All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible"

    Is already a very real truth that exists in ESO so long as you are willing to, at the very least, put forth a basic genuine effort. Not all players are created equal and not all tiers of content in a game of this genre are accessible to all types of players. That is just the reality of things. Lowering the bar in a manner that you have suggested in this thread would result in a pretty awful experience for a large portion of the player base.

    I'm not really suggesting lowering the bar, exactly, just suggesting that perhaps the ends should be closer together.
    I'm also not saying I can't get my dps up to that level, just that I really don't want to... because while I'll be able to do the top level stuff, all else will be trivial, and therefore not any fun. Thus, I'm content to remain more or less where I am.

    I just worry about the slippery slope... because I've seen it so often before.

    This is an incorrect assumption. I do weekly vet hardmode trials, and can clear almost all content in this game, but I still enjoy running a new toon through older content from time to time. When a group and I have a particularly grueling run at something, and maybe it doesn't go well, I always queue us up to do a normal Vaults of Madness run afterward, because it's still my favorite base game content and it's fun and refreshing to do something like that from time to time. I always like to end every run on a positive note.

    Also, if the ends are brought closer together, that by definition means lowering the bar. That would spell the end of any sort of progression in this game and resign the rest of us to a low level of mediocre game play only because someone "didn't want to" work to improve themselves.

    You are doing content on two different characters... precisely because the lower level content is trivial to one of them. Your Vet Hardmode character will face no challenge at all from normal content. You're saying that bringing the ends of the bar closer together would make everything mediocre. I'm saying I just don't want anything to be trivial, but also not overwhelming. EVERYTHING should present some kind of challenge.

    In my view, your Vet Hardmode character should find normal content easier, but still a challenge if you're not careful; and at the same time be capable of the Vet Hardmode stuff... while MY normal character should find a challenge in the normal stuff, but not be completely incapable of contributing to the Vet Hardmode content. I don't see that as everything being mediocre, I see that as everything being interesting.

    Also, as a side point, characters with gigantic dps can often spoil things for OTHER characters. I've been busy enjoying spelunking in a cave or ruin, only to have everything in the delve wiped out in the blink of an eye before I can even move. Now, it doesn't happen often, but the point is that excessive dps can also affect other people's gameplay.

    In any case, my original question has been answered, and there has been ample discussion now to elaborate on my point, so I believe I'll stop here.

    I don't think you understood what I wrote. I use the same character for both hardmodes and normal content. If I want it to be more difficult, I'll do something like pulling all of the adds through the dungeon, and then dpsing them in one place. Generally though, it's nice taking a leisurely stroll through the normal stuff, and it's nice to be at a point where I can do that without trying very hard. Have you maybe considered that we are able to do the things we do because we work hard at them and put in a lot of time to get there? You're a casual player, which is perfectly fine, but that means you get the casual content to play with. Those of us who work hard on our characters because we enjoy that sort of thing get the more challenging content, which is not, and absolutely should not, be geared for casual players. I honestly don't understand why you're so adamant that you should be able to play vet mode with less than minimal effort when normal, in all content, is absolutely sufficient to suit your needs (normal trials and dlc dungeons are still very challenging for lower leveled players). This is just bordering on weird now...
    Xbox NA
  • Shantu
    Shantu
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    Pay no attention to these guys who say 45k dsp is normal. It may be for them, but in reality, 99% of players will never achieve that. And don't let them tell you that 25K is required for normal trials. I frequently lead normal trials with groups whose average is less than 15k. And while it takes us a bit longer, we finish just fine and have a lot of fun.

    What's "good" is totally subjective. If your dps is good enough to have fun, it's good. :)

    That being said, if you get to the point where a higher dsp becomes something meaningful to you, you'll need to learn about light attack weaving, animation cancellation, full up time on AOE's and DOT's, use of ultimates, resource management, and LOTS of practice.

    Lower dps will limit the content available. Now whether that content is relevant to you, is another matter.
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
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    Shantu wrote: »
    Pay no attention to these guys who say 45k dsp is normal. It may be for them, but in reality, 99% of players will never achieve that. And don't let them tell you that 25K is required for normal trials. I frequently lead normal trials with groups whose average is less than 15k. And while it takes us a bit longer, we finish just fine and have a lot of fun.

    What's "good" is totally subjective. If your dps is good enough to have fun, it's good. :)

    That being said, if you get to the point where a higher dsp becomes something meaningful to you, you'll need to learn about light attack weaving, animation cancellation, full up time on AOE's and DOT's, use of ultimates, resource management, and LOTS of practice.

    Lower dps will limit the content available. Now whether that content is relevant to you, is another matter.

    How about you read the thread..
  • Khivas_Carrick
    Khivas_Carrick
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    The thread that keeps on giving
    Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!
  • Ysbriel
    Ysbriel
    ✭✭
    As i said in a similar title post:
    30K is the magic number that everybody who has not reached a big in game financial level should seek, why? well in the average dungeon scenario killing the mobs is that spawn around the boss while damaging the boss is the difference in between making it or not. By math 30k means 900k in 30 seconds which will melt the average mob if you keep adding it up to the 9 DD the usual trial have, we are talking about 8.1 Mil in 30 seconds. I reach that with my Mag sorc with 5 necropotence, 5 julianos 2 illambris and im totally awful at keeping up a steady rotation.
  • Grianasteri
    Grianasteri
    ✭✭
    In my experience (several years playing ESO on and off, CP600 ish, mainly PVE content)...

    DPS is only half the story.

    I have no where near 30k, or even 20k for that matter, on most of my characters (last time I checked), but I can do most content up to and including vet dungeons and normal trials.

    While I make my builds to work and put thought into that, the main focus for me is making fun builds, often themed around an element/damage type - fire/ice/shock/poison/physical etc.

    So the point is I dont make max/min builds or focus on the current meta, as others have said you need to put hard work into achieving the big DPS numbers.. But I have several characters that can still do most (not all) "end game" content.

    Cheers

  • Grianasteri
    Grianasteri
    ✭✭
    I don’t mean for this to sound harsh, but someone is carrying you. They are making up for your deficit by pulling higher numbers themselves or they are contributing a large amount of time with repeated tries to get bosses down, etc.

    I personally try to pull strong numbers and have worked hard to get to my 32k DPS in order to be able to accomplish harder content with friends who are just not interested in min maxing. I know what I signed up for but it would surely take some pressure off if they invested a little time in getting their DPS a little higher. A little effort goes a long way and would make runs a more fun and less stressful.

    Its not harsh at all, I welcome all constructive feedback.

    However, I am not sure it is accurate to say I am being carried in general. Though this may depend on ones definition of "carry". And remember, I said "most" not all content.

    Many here suggest that many average players will be doing less than 10k DPS. I just went and did a very quick test for the first time in ages with one of my DPS characters - I made plenty of mistakes and fumbles, I got about 14K DPS. The character does not have all purple gear and does not have all traits optimised. Clearly room for improvement in making my rotation more consistent and improving my gear.

    I run most content with one friend, of similar experience, CPs and DPS. We can do all dungeons on normal as a two man team (most can be soloed). We can do plenty of dungeons on vet as a two man team. We can do most if not all world bosses as a two man team. That's "most" of the content covered without being a min/max meta player or someone with huge DPS numbers... and without being "carried".

    Clearly DLC and some vet dungeons are more difficult (not to mention trials). When I run in a 4 person group, again this is often with similar players to myself - we still get the content done, and that is surely the point. I have not commented on how easily content is covered, only that it is.

    There is of course a noticeable difference when you get a high DPS or two into the group (someone like you). For the very hardest content I have absolutely been carried through at times by high DPS players. But I said I can do "most" content ;-)

    I believe I am a decent, average player, I put thought into my builds and rotations. I feel like I pull my weight in most content once I know the mechanics. I doubt I will ever get to the 30k+ DPS levels, even if I manage to optimise my gear and improve my rotation consistency.

    I stand by my comment, for "most" content (not all), there is no need for 30k+ or even 20k+ DPS. It can clearly be done with a lot less.
    Edited by Grianasteri on January 31, 2019 9:50AM
  • Elijah_Crow
    Elijah_Crow
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    Koensol wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.
    p00tx wrote: »
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.

    I think you just hit the nail on the head. I don't think OP understands how MMOs work, at all. This isn't a linear game of Zelda or Final Fantasy, where your only goal is to mash your way to the end, just so you can start again.

    To OP: I can understand not wanting to go through the "hassle" (or to some of us, the awesome challenge) of making the climb to endgame, but I don't understand why you want the bar lowered so much, even at the cost of everyone else's enjoyment. This isn't a play-and-toss type of game. It's an ever evolving, ever expanding, open-world game where anyone can come find something to entertain themselves, no matter their interests, skill sets, or abilities. In fact, there is so much to do, the vast majority never completes every available achievement. This is more than just a game. It's a community, and that means everyone gets a place here, including end-gamers who also need a place to enjoy themselves in this game. We enjoy the competitiveness and the difficulty because it's an accomplishment when someone works that hard for something and then achieves it.

    You don't have to "get it", but you don't have to make statements aimed at taking it away either.

    However, there is NO WAY I can possibly compete in PvP. There is NO WAY I can do a Veteran dungeon. Again, this is a character who is decently equipped. That it's essentially impossible for me to compete or contribute in a meaningful way in much of the game's content suggests to me that there's a problem. The gulf is just too wide.
    I'm sorry to break it to you, but no, your character is NOT decently equiped. You are wearing warmaiden, a magicka damage set, which isn't even good in pve because it doesn't buff flame and lightning staff abilities and heavy + light attacks. On top of that you wear defiler, which is a stamina set. No offense to you personally because most of us have been there, but the best thing is to be honest: your build is trash. If you want to be able to do at least 20k dps (this isn't hard) you need to refrain from making assumptions like "I am decently equiped because I wear cp 160 gear", but in stead focus on learning and looking for the right information to improve.

    I will tell you this: No matter what you may believe or find absurd, rotation is EVERYTHING. A noob with top tier gear combination and perfect cp could get 10k dps if he plays like a fool. Yet in the hands of a skilled player who knows how to line up buffs, keep these buffs up and perform a good rotation, you can get 40k dps easily even with making many mistakes. This can be inflated to 50k + on flawless rotations.
    It is time to stop living in disbelief. This is reality.

    #triggered ? Lol
  • Morgha_Kul
    Morgha_Kul
    ✭✭✭✭
    Koensol wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.
    p00tx wrote: »
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.

    I think you just hit the nail on the head. I don't think OP understands how MMOs work, at all. This isn't a linear game of Zelda or Final Fantasy, where your only goal is to mash your way to the end, just so you can start again.

    To OP: I can understand not wanting to go through the "hassle" (or to some of us, the awesome challenge) of making the climb to endgame, but I don't understand why you want the bar lowered so much, even at the cost of everyone else's enjoyment. This isn't a play-and-toss type of game. It's an ever evolving, ever expanding, open-world game where anyone can come find something to entertain themselves, no matter their interests, skill sets, or abilities. In fact, there is so much to do, the vast majority never completes every available achievement. This is more than just a game. It's a community, and that means everyone gets a place here, including end-gamers who also need a place to enjoy themselves in this game. We enjoy the competitiveness and the difficulty because it's an accomplishment when someone works that hard for something and then achieves it.

    You don't have to "get it", but you don't have to make statements aimed at taking it away either.

    However, there is NO WAY I can possibly compete in PvP. There is NO WAY I can do a Veteran dungeon. Again, this is a character who is decently equipped. That it's essentially impossible for me to compete or contribute in a meaningful way in much of the game's content suggests to me that there's a problem. The gulf is just too wide.
    I'm sorry to break it to you, but no, your character is NOT decently equiped. You are wearing warmaiden, a magicka damage set, which isn't even good in pve because it doesn't buff flame and lightning staff abilities and heavy + light attacks. On top of that you wear defiler, which is a stamina set. No offense to you personally because most of us have been there, but the best thing is to be honest: your build is trash. If you want to be able to do at least 20k dps (this isn't hard) you need to refrain from making assumptions like "I am decently equiped because I wear cp 160 gear", but in stead focus on learning and looking for the right information to improve.

    I will tell you this: No matter what you may believe or find absurd, rotation is EVERYTHING. A noob with top tier gear combination and perfect cp could get 10k dps if he plays like a fool. Yet in the hands of a skilled player who knows how to line up buffs, keep these buffs up and perform a good rotation, you can get 40k dps easily even with making many mistakes. This can be inflated to 50k + on flawless rotations.
    It is time to stop living in disbelief. This is reality.

    You see, the thing is, I just want to PLAY. To me, decently equipped means I have two full sets of gear, all of it giving me various bonuses over normal gear. If I have to have a degree in advanced calculus and analyze all the possible permutations of a given set of gear and weapons, and thereby LIMIT myself only to that one weapon and style of play... then I'm really not interested.

    I just want to play.

    Of course, for the most part, I can. There's just that top tier stuff that I can't contribute to or participate in meaningfully.
    I'm ok with that. I just think it's unfortunate that they designed it that way.
    Edited by Morgha_Kul on January 30, 2019 10:28PM
    Exploring Tamriel since 1994.
  • Elijah_Crow
    Elijah_Crow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Easy entry, more challenging to master?

    Seems like a great design to me.
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Easy entry, more challenging to master?

    Seems like a great design to me.

    And coincidentally it is also how the game currently is designed so........
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Koensol wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.
    p00tx wrote: »
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.

    I think you just hit the nail on the head. I don't think OP understands how MMOs work, at all. This isn't a linear game of Zelda or Final Fantasy, where your only goal is to mash your way to the end, just so you can start again.

    To OP: I can understand not wanting to go through the "hassle" (or to some of us, the awesome challenge) of making the climb to endgame, but I don't understand why you want the bar lowered so much, even at the cost of everyone else's enjoyment. This isn't a play-and-toss type of game. It's an ever evolving, ever expanding, open-world game where anyone can come find something to entertain themselves, no matter their interests, skill sets, or abilities. In fact, there is so much to do, the vast majority never completes every available achievement. This is more than just a game. It's a community, and that means everyone gets a place here, including end-gamers who also need a place to enjoy themselves in this game. We enjoy the competitiveness and the difficulty because it's an accomplishment when someone works that hard for something and then achieves it.

    You don't have to "get it", but you don't have to make statements aimed at taking it away either.

    However, there is NO WAY I can possibly compete in PvP. There is NO WAY I can do a Veteran dungeon. Again, this is a character who is decently equipped. That it's essentially impossible for me to compete or contribute in a meaningful way in much of the game's content suggests to me that there's a problem. The gulf is just too wide.
    I'm sorry to break it to you, but no, your character is NOT decently equiped. You are wearing warmaiden, a magicka damage set, which isn't even good in pve because it doesn't buff flame and lightning staff abilities and heavy + light attacks. On top of that you wear defiler, which is a stamina set. No offense to you personally because most of us have been there, but the best thing is to be honest: your build is trash. If you want to be able to do at least 20k dps (this isn't hard) you need to refrain from making assumptions like "I am decently equiped because I wear cp 160 gear", but in stead focus on learning and looking for the right information to improve.

    I will tell you this: No matter what you may believe or find absurd, rotation is EVERYTHING. A noob with top tier gear combination and perfect cp could get 10k dps if he plays like a fool. Yet in the hands of a skilled player who knows how to line up buffs, keep these buffs up and perform a good rotation, you can get 40k dps easily even with making many mistakes. This can be inflated to 50k + on flawless rotations.
    It is time to stop living in disbelief. This is reality.

    You see, the thing is, I just want to PLAY. To me, decently equipped means I have two full sets of gear, all of it giving me various bonuses over normal gear. If I have to have a degree in advanced calculus and analyze all the possible permutations of a given set of gear and weapons, and thereby LIMIT myself only to that one weapon and style of play... then I'm really not interested.

    I just want to play.

    Of course, for the most part, I can. There's just that top tier stuff that I can't contribute to or participate in meaningfully.
    I'm ok with that. I just think it's unfortunate that they designed it that way.

    Its not designed in any way like that. Welcome to this genre as a whole. There is going to be a very objectively wrong and right way to play. That is the simple truth of it. Whatever definition of decently geared you have decided to be accurate doesnt change that. In terms of the win conditions set in place by the developers for which meaningful progression is incentivized, you dont get to have your cake and eat it.

    Your build is unfortunately not only a unique personalized build but it is a completely unviable one for any content outside of enjoying the overland questing experience. You are ultimately saying that its unfortunate that a character that is not developed and invested in, in terms of gear and player execution, cant enjoy content designed for characters that are developed and invested in, in terms of gear and player execution.....

    Every trial and dungeon has a normal mode that can be slept walk through. That is readily available for you to enjoy. Making hyperbolic remarks like needing an advanced degree in calculus etc etc doesnt help at all. Gaming needs risk vs reward or methods of which players are incentivized to improve themselves to overcome greater obstacles that devs create. In an ideal world, in this genre, developers set up the game to offer a wide range of content so they can engage the broadest audience possible. I dont envy this task at all, as it becomes very damaging when you lean too heavy on one side of the accessibility scale for your game. You risk losing your playerbase that wants to turn up to 11 when they sit down to game or the playerbase that wants to shut their brain off entirely when they sit down to game.

    Imo, eso leans more on the casual side but not by much. And frankly...... Enough players with your mentality that push ZOSs coffers becomes a dangerous thing.
  • Morgha_Kul
    Morgha_Kul
    ✭✭✭✭
    Again, people are getting overly worked up over nothing here.

    All I asked was, what is considered decent dps. That's all.

    Design philosophy is a whole other topic that has kind of evolved out of that question, but I'm not suggesting any changes to anything... so relax.

    All I've said on this point is that I think there are better ways of doing things. You're welcome to disagree. Either way, it's not going to change anything in the game.
    Exploring Tamriel since 1994.
  • JayAstrophel
    JayAstrophel
    ✭✭✭
    I’ve been working on improving over the last week and went from 4K to 9k DPS. It’s going to take me a while but I really want to be able to help in that end game content.

    Because of this, overland content has indeed gotten easier for me, but I love that! I’very gone from dying on every overland quest boss fight unless I have ww up to confidently taking out enemies. It’s super fun to feel more powerful. Hopefully one day I can get to that 20k and really feel impressive.
    TAMRIEL MERCENARIES AND ADVENTURERS SOCIETY
    CP232
    Aren'dra - khajiit ww stamblade - DPS - sneak-thief wanderer
    Danara-jo - khajiit vamp magblade - healer - ancient scholar
    Lost-In-His-Wanderings - argonian magplar - healer - melancholy dreamer
    Rugan the Lost - orsimer dk - tank - wise old trickster
  • BejaProphet
    BejaProphet
    ✭✭✭✭
    I’ve been working on improving over the last week and went from 4K to 9k DPS. It’s going to take me a while but I really want to be able to help in that end game content.

    Because of this, overland content has indeed gotten easier for me, but I love that! I’very gone from dying on every overland quest boss fight unless I have ww up to confidently taking out enemies. It’s super fun to feel more powerful. Hopefully one day I can get to that 20k and really feel impressive.

    Wait until your damage is so high the enemy doesn’t get to finish their smack talk before they are dead. It’s hilarious 😆
  • TheDarkoil
    TheDarkoil
    ✭✭✭
    Mag sorc dps here. I have most 'meta' sets in the game and like to change them up a lot depending on content I want to run. I usually aim for a no cheese solid 25k, the only self buff I keep up is major sorcery from power surge and don't use ele drain either as you only need one person running it for most trail bosses, if I don't spot it being used on the first boss in a trial I may rotate it in. I keep ward on my front bar as well which I don't cast during skele parses but know I'm going to probably use it at some point especially during vet runs. 15k - 20k should be about the lowest you would want to aim for though if running group content and that's not really asking a lot, it's just curteous to the other people you are grouped with.
  • ghastley
    ghastley
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Madrajin wrote: »
    If you can do 20k DPS you can do all game content.
    I think what's meant here is that once you've hit around 20k you got the basic ideas right, and can improve at your own pace. The learning curve that establishes a rotation, and weaving, is a bit steep just before that level, and you need to make that breakthrough.

    I fumble bar swaps all the time. That's what's keeping me back.

    Also, the number is always the dummy parse, and those never fight back. If you're running a "retaliating" set that procs when you receive damage, it will never factor in. Ones that add damage when you deal it out will make you look better. In real use, both work.
    Edited by ghastley on January 31, 2019 6:13PM
  • shadowofnarsil

    2. As you move from 20k towards 30k you are reaching a dps level that nobody can just intuitively attain. That level of Dps requires research to understand what combinations of sets can do it, what spell bar set ups are required, and specific rotations of casting spells, and then you practicing it for hours on a dummy. Nobody does what you did and hits 30k dps. You can not just play the game and one day have 30k+ dps. You will need help to do that.

    @ Morgha_Kul
    Couldn’t agree more with the above statement. Along similar lines, and regardless of whether you are aiming for 10k or 50k, I had made a comment on another thread that starts to get at basic DPS strategy, that may be helpful for improving DPS gameplay in general.


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