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What's considered good DPS?

  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Truthfully, I don't WANT my dps to be that high, for exactly the reason mentioned here... that most of the game would become trivial. The problem is that if I stay where I am, where I can still be challenged a bit by overland and normal content, I'll be completely unable to participate in much of the other kinds of content, like Veteran dungeons or PvP.

    That's why I call it a problem. If I'm at either end of the dps spectrum, there's going to be something I simply can't do. My dps is too high, I can't do regular content anymore (it will be trivial). My dps is too low, I can't do the high end things or pvp.

    Now, this is just my take on it. The game seems to be pretty well fine, but I've NEVER done any Veteran dungeons or dailies or anything like that. I've only rarely done any of the group dungeons, like Fungal Grotto and such, and I don't pvp, because I can neither DO nor SURVIVE damage.

    But, again, that's just my 2 cents.

    Don't worry about dps at this point just yet--you mentioned you were a hybrid, and although it can work for most overland things, you need a full spec if you want to be a true damage dealer, so have a look at your build first. There are many beginner builds around for both stam/magplars, start with those, and make sure you can sustain, that's your starting point. From there on, learn your skills, look what cooldowns they have, start to form a rotation, so you don't over-cast things, make sure you have some abilities for aoe dmg when there are a lot of mobs around, and some for single target when it's just one mob. Look up rotation videos from other people, and try to incorporate them while you play the game. Then start gathering gear to improve your build, and once you have your skills down and and decent gear, then start parsing.

    There's no one answer as to what's a good number, it depends entirely on the content you want to do; keep in mind that dps makes everything easier, so it's not that some things *need* high numbers (though there are a few true dps checks here and there), it's just that they make mechanics redundant, and keep fights shorter. Lower dps means longer fights, and more space for mistakes, plus the need to execute mechanics every wave perfectly, that's why we see requirements for high parses... they are a safeguard against mechanics.
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  • CyberSkooma
    CyberSkooma
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Truthfully, I don't WANT my dps to be that high, for exactly the reason mentioned here... that most of the game would become trivial. The problem is that if I stay where I am, where I can still be challenged a bit by overland and normal content, I'll be completely unable to participate in much of the other kinds of content, like Veteran dungeons or PvP.

    That's why I call it a problem. If I'm at either end of the dps spectrum, there's going to be something I simply can't do. My dps is too high, I can't do regular content anymore (it will be trivial). My dps is too low, I can't do the high end things or pvp.

    Now, this is just my take on it. The game seems to be pretty well fine, but I've NEVER done any Veteran dungeons or dailies or anything like that. I've only rarely done any of the group dungeons, like Fungal Grotto and such, and I don't pvp, because I can neither DO nor SURVIVE damage.

    But, again, that's just my 2 cents.

    Well you're sort of correct. I'm currently hitting 51k on my stamblade. I love it because I can push high-end content, but it also sucks because it's my main character (have had it since early 2015) and it makes quest content absolutely horrid. Nothing like killing a hyped-up quest boss in three seconds.
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  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    It's a shame, but while any interesting build can be brought up to 25-30k dps you really want 35k or more for vet trials, preferably upwards of 50k.

    Basically you play the exact same item sets and master weapons and abilities regardless of class.
    You stack the same buffs, use the same enchantments, same mundus stone.

    You will find as you try to make your own build that if you take a "meta" build and try to edit it at all you will drop down to like 30k dps immediately because its so carefully constructed, every ability procs something, or keeps a debuff or buff up.
  • Morgha_Kul
    Morgha_Kul
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Truthfully, I don't WANT my dps to be that high, for exactly the reason mentioned here... that most of the game would become trivial. The problem is that if I stay where I am, where I can still be challenged a bit by overland and normal content, I'll be completely unable to participate in much of the other kinds of content, like Veteran dungeons or PvP.

    That's why I call it a problem. If I'm at either end of the dps spectrum, there's going to be something I simply can't do. My dps is too high, I can't do regular content anymore (it will be trivial). My dps is too low, I can't do the high end things or pvp.

    Now, this is just my take on it. The game seems to be pretty well fine, but I've NEVER done any Veteran dungeons or dailies or anything like that. I've only rarely done any of the group dungeons, like Fungal Grotto and such, and I don't pvp, because I can neither DO nor SURVIVE damage.

    But, again, that's just my 2 cents.

    Well you're sort of correct. I'm currently hitting 51k on my stamblade. I love it because I can push high-end content, but it also sucks because it's my main character (have had it since early 2015) and it makes quest content absolutely horrid. Nothing like killing a hyped-up quest boss in three seconds.

    This is what I mean. If most of the game becomes trivial for me, then there's not much in the game to enjoy.

    Charted, fun is on an inverted U-curve. Too easy, and it's not any fun because there's no challenge. Too hard, and it's not any fun because you can't succeed (which is the point of any game). The sweet spot is at the center of the curve.

    My concern for any game is that they make the power disparity so large that the extremes of power are too far along the curve. Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming. It's a tough line to walk, I get that. I just worry that I'll see here what I've seen elsewhere, that newer content is made to cater to the top end people, making it inaccessible to the lower end people.
    Exploring Tamriel since 1994.
  • TimeWizard
    TimeWizard
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    I wouldn't worry about questing becoming too easy. Getting better numbers will open up a way bigger world of fun in the game for you. Also if you want to quest and not feel too overpowered you can always quet naked, or not use some of your abilities, or just have a different questing setup. Being able to hit the kind of number you want to comfortably complete group content in thi game does not mean thet anyone will force you to do thoe numbers while questing.

    I generally quest on my healer, in healer gear, with only sweeps to do damage. I do enough to kill ***, but it still takes abut of time for things to die.

    In my experience getting better never has never lessened my enjoyment of the game.
  • Madrajin
    Madrajin
    kathandira wrote: »
    iiYuki wrote: »
    Purely opinion but:
    15k-20k+ Normal Dungeons
    20k-25k+ Veteran Dungeons
    25k+ nTrials
    30k+ vTrials

    I would personally consider 25k as good and entering 30k+ is great and you are probably someone that will have no problem finding groups, though I would say 20k-25k is enough to successfully contribute and complete any content.

    I personally would lower each value by 5k, except for vTrials. 2 DPS doing 10k in Normal should be good, not great, but good. Even Normal Trials could be a little lower. We run a training run on Mondays with our guild, and I can tell you that about 1/2 the DPS is likely between 10k and 15k. But we get it done, and it doesn't take forever.

    You are kidding, my hybrid tank/healer does 8k DPS and can solo normal dungeons that don't specifically have boss mechanics that require multiple players. My partner and I two maned a veteran dungeon with her 16k DPS mag templar we only realised we were running it on Veteran instead of Normal half way through. Newer high end dungeons might require a full group. If you can do 20k DPS you can do all game content.
  • Berenhir
    Berenhir
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    Madrajin wrote: »
    If you can do 20k DPS you can do all game content.

    (X) Doubt.
    Edited by Berenhir on January 25, 2019 12:15AM
    PC EU - Ebonheart Pact - Vivec

    currently playing...
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    ... Mending, Magicka Templar
  • Khivas_Carrick
    Khivas_Carrick
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    From my point of view , DPS bottom line is around 25k .

    Actually parser result from an non moving object is quiet meaningless .

    There are many guildmates hit over 40k remarked , but they can't survive in DLC HM and V-trial :D

    I think good DPS has to well know about his build , class characteristic , fighting position , mobs mechanism and Crisis management .

    This. Actual fights, especially in 4man content will see you at seemingly lower dps than what you should be capable of. Flat, non moving figures where you can just go to town will have you hitting high numbers, but mechanics and movement intensive fights, or Skill Checks as they used to call them, will have you parsing lower because you'll be taking time out of killing the boss in order to keep your ass alive.

    It takes a lot more than people think to be a dps, especially in this game lol

    Also, I'm damn near convinced you're a troll, but I haven't finished reading this thread so in case you're not....

    Pick an attribute and run with it. Hybrid specs/builds are for tanks, not dps, and once you pick an attribute, pick a build and run with it
    Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!
  • Koronach
    Koronach
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    From my point of view , DPS bottom line is around 25k .

    Actually parser result from an non moving object is quiet meaningless .

    There are many guildmates hit over 40k remarked , but they can't survive in DLC HM and V-trial :D

    I think good DPS has to well know about his build , class characteristic , fighting position , mobs mechanism and Crisis management .

    This. Actual fights, especially in 4man content will see you at seemingly lower dps than what you should be capable of. Flat, non moving figures where you can just go to town will have you hitting high numbers, but mechanics and movement intensive fights, or Skill Checks as they used to call them, will have you parsing lower because you'll be taking time out of killing the boss in order to keep your ass alive.

    It takes a lot more than people think to be a dps, especially in this game lol

    Also, I'm damn near convinced you're a troll, but I haven't finished reading this thread so in case you're not....

    Pick an attribute and run with it. Hybrid specs/builds are for tanks, not dps, and once you pick an attribute, pick a build and run with it

    Yeah you're right, dummies just stand around and don't move or fight back. I can do 42k as an Argonian Stamblade on a dummy in my semi crap gear. I bet it's half that in 4man, when bosses are constantly running,jumping, or teleporting around. Also not being able to do the rotation because of AoE mechanics. I really need to get a dps addon XD
  • Morgha_Kul
    Morgha_Kul
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    From my point of view , DPS bottom line is around 25k .

    Actually parser result from an non moving object is quiet meaningless .

    There are many guildmates hit over 40k remarked , but they can't survive in DLC HM and V-trial :D

    I think good DPS has to well know about his build , class characteristic , fighting position , mobs mechanism and Crisis management .

    This. Actual fights, especially in 4man content will see you at seemingly lower dps than what you should be capable of. Flat, non moving figures where you can just go to town will have you hitting high numbers, but mechanics and movement intensive fights, or Skill Checks as they used to call them, will have you parsing lower because you'll be taking time out of killing the boss in order to keep your ass alive.

    It takes a lot more than people think to be a dps, especially in this game lol

    Also, I'm damn near convinced you're a troll, but I haven't finished reading this thread so in case you're not....

    Pick an attribute and run with it. Hybrid specs/builds are for tanks, not dps, and once you pick an attribute, pick a build and run with it

    I promise, there's no trolling here.

    The point of the thread was to see whether what I was doing was reasonable or not. Clearly, even when I set up my characters (eg. Morgha Kul) exclusively to do damage, they're not doing as much as some people are doing, and not by a trivial margin.

    Now, I'm really not interested in grinding for the next 10000 years to get all the best ultramegasupersilly rare gear to get my dps up to anything like what I'm seeing here. The best I managed was a little over 10k, and that's plenty (and sacrifices all possible defense in the process). I have no particular need to do anything more than I'm doing now... except for when I might be grouping (or in the unlikely event of pvp). I would hate to be a drag on the team, doing 5k damage while they're all doing 30k.

    But, I'm satisfied with my ability to solo. I was just curious what was considered "good."
    Exploring Tamriel since 1994.
  • Berenhir
    Berenhir
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    From my point of view , DPS bottom line is around 25k .

    Actually parser result from an non moving object is quiet meaningless .

    There are many guildmates hit over 40k remarked , but they can't survive in DLC HM and V-trial :D

    I think good DPS has to well know about his build , class characteristic , fighting position , mobs mechanism and Crisis management .

    This. Actual fights, especially in 4man content will see you at seemingly lower dps than what you should be capable of. Flat, non moving figures where you can just go to town will have you hitting high numbers, but mechanics and movement intensive fights, or Skill Checks as they used to call them, will have you parsing lower because you'll be taking time out of killing the boss in order to keep your ass alive.

    It takes a lot more than people think to be a dps, especially in this game lol

    Also, I'm damn near convinced you're a troll, but I haven't finished reading this thread so in case you're not....

    Pick an attribute and run with it. Hybrid specs/builds are for tanks, not dps, and once you pick an attribute, pick a build and run with it

    I promise, there's no trolling here.

    The point of the thread was to see whether what I was doing was reasonable or not. Clearly, even when I set up my characters (eg. Morgha Kul) exclusively to do damage, they're not doing as much as some people are doing, and not by a trivial margin.

    Now, I'm really not interested in grinding for the next 10000 years to get all the best ultramegasupersilly rare gear to get my dps up to anything like what I'm seeing here. The best I managed was a little over 10k, and that's plenty (and sacrifices all possible defense in the process). I have no particular need to do anything more than I'm doing now... except for when I might be grouping (or in the unlikely event of pvp). I would hate to be a drag on the team, doing 5k damage while they're all doing 30k.

    But, I'm satisfied with my ability to solo. I was just curious what was considered "good."



    This video (and especially its description) will help a lot to understand what the difference is between what you do and what an endgame damage rotation looks like.
    PC EU - Ebonheart Pact - Vivec

    currently playing...
    ... Dies-All-Day, Magicka Nightblade
    ... The Whipster, Magicka Dragonknight
    ... Mending, Magicka Templar
  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    Madrajin wrote: »
    kathandira wrote: »
    iiYuki wrote: »
    Purely opinion but:
    15k-20k+ Normal Dungeons
    20k-25k+ Veteran Dungeons
    25k+ nTrials
    30k+ vTrials

    I would personally consider 25k as good and entering 30k+ is great and you are probably someone that will have no problem finding groups, though I would say 20k-25k is enough to successfully contribute and complete any content.

    I personally would lower each value by 5k, except for vTrials. 2 DPS doing 10k in Normal should be good, not great, but good. Even Normal Trials could be a little lower. We run a training run on Mondays with our guild, and I can tell you that about 1/2 the DPS is likely between 10k and 15k. But we get it done, and it doesn't take forever.

    You are kidding, my hybrid tank/healer does 8k DPS and can solo normal dungeons that don't specifically have boss mechanics that require multiple players. My partner and I two maned a veteran dungeon with her 16k DPS mag templar we only realized we were running it on Veteran instead of Normal half way through. Newer high end dungeons might require a full group. If you can do 20k DPS you can do all game content.

    Yeah...run some vet/hm trials with a group of 20K dps and then come tell me that. For only a little extra work on your character, you can make these insane end game instances actually fun by not sweating and stressing through an unnecessarily long fight. The shield phase on the first vMoL boss? No way you'd make it through that with a group of 20ks before he wiped the group. Trust me...I've seen groups break up because there just wasn't enough dps to burn him through that part.

    Xbox NA
  • Khivas_Carrick
    Khivas_Carrick
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    From my point of view , DPS bottom line is around 25k .

    Actually parser result from an non moving object is quiet meaningless .

    There are many guildmates hit over 40k remarked , but they can't survive in DLC HM and V-trial :D

    I think good DPS has to well know about his build , class characteristic , fighting position , mobs mechanism and Crisis management .

    This. Actual fights, especially in 4man content will see you at seemingly lower dps than what you should be capable of. Flat, non moving figures where you can just go to town will have you hitting high numbers, but mechanics and movement intensive fights, or Skill Checks as they used to call them, will have you parsing lower because you'll be taking time out of killing the boss in order to keep your ass alive.

    It takes a lot more than people think to be a dps, especially in this game lol

    Also, I'm damn near convinced you're a troll, but I haven't finished reading this thread so in case you're not....

    Pick an attribute and run with it. Hybrid specs/builds are for tanks, not dps, and once you pick an attribute, pick a build and run with it

    I promise, there's no trolling here.

    The point of the thread was to see whether what I was doing was reasonable or not. Clearly, even when I set up my characters (eg. Morgha Kul) exclusively to do damage, they're not doing as much as some people are doing, and not by a trivial margin.

    Now, I'm really not interested in grinding for the next 10000 years to get all the best ultramegasupersilly rare gear to get my dps up to anything like what I'm seeing here. The best I managed was a little over 10k, and that's plenty (and sacrifices all possible defense in the process). I have no particular need to do anything more than I'm doing now... except for when I might be grouping (or in the unlikely event of pvp). I would hate to be a drag on the team, doing 5k damage while they're all doing 30k.

    But, I'm satisfied with my ability to solo. I was just curious what was considered "good."

    Actually doesn't take long to grind gear in this game at all lol You can actually buy extremely viable and potent endgame worthy gear via crafting it and buying it.

    Hunding's Rage or Briarheart paired with Spriggan's Thorns is a prime example of this, and with Update 21 coming, there's even more sets to choose from such as Deadly Strike, and this is just the Stamina end of things.
    Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ok, ran through it again with Morgha Kul (my main, obviously). He's a summoner Sorceror, and decently equipped (War Maiden and Defiler). He's only at 379CP, though (as are all my characters).

    I blasted away at the Precursor with my Lightning Staff, and managed a high of 7274.1 in 44s. Better, but I'm still so far away from that upper level of 50k that I must reiterate my concern. This is a character who, while not equipped with the most bleeding edge gear, is still reasonably equipped. He has ALL 64 of his points in Magicka (even though I like to use a 2H sword from time to time), and was using a dps weapon. Granted again, I've not minmaxed a rotation or anything, but I can't imagine getting a 40k+ difference from that.

    I suppose it doesn't really matter all that much... unless I decide to try PvP. In that case, I've got as much chance as an ice cube in a blast furnace. I won't be able to compete at all, and that's worrisome when my experience of PvP is already so bad. The other concern, as I said, is that I won't ever be able to do any content aimed at the 50k crowd, and when I see a variance like this, I worry that they're going to start catering to the extreme DPS players...

    10/10
  • silver1surfer69
    what imo has to be considdered is the actual dps on a boss during a fight read out via a fight log after a fight. ppl sometimes throw around numbers that other players intimidate. So ur dps on mobs will be more then on single target, but the later is the important 1. And ur dps will be highre on a non moving skeleton than on a fighting boss.
  • Starlock
    Starlock
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    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Well, that's not likely going to happen. 10s of thousands of dps? To me, that's absurd.

    Welcome to the major reason I gave up on being a damage dealer for group content as I've had experiences similar to yours. I'll never get over the crushing feeling of testing my dps for the first time thinking I was "good" and realizing it was apparently terrible per some internet nobody's standards. It is rather absurd; that gulf you talk about later in your post for damage dealers is quite the conundrum. Here's how I responded to this situation, which may or may not be helpful for you so take it or leave it as you will.

    For a while, I aspired to conform to the standards allegedly required to do what some call "end game" content. I completely changed how I preferred to play the game to fuss about numbers and attempt to get what someone else considered "good" damage values. As I asked questions and did research, it became apparent I would have to destroy my character to conform this cookie cutter thing called "meta build." More than that, it was going to require being a mindlessly mechanical button pushing machine that did these things in some exact, perfect order with flawless timing. This "rotation" as they call it would need to be practiced for hours and hours to do correctly assuming my internet connection allowed for it at all. I would also need to do this thing called "grinding" or "farming" to get the gear I needed, which would take yet more hours and hours. The same would be required to constantly run the correct food and/or potions.

    As I started realizing what it would require to follow these standards, I did a double take. Why on earth would anyone play the game this way? I didn't get it; it struck me as an incredible waste of my time. What would I be doing this for? Because some nobody on the internet said it was required? I've never been a power gamer, and I've never cared about treating life (much less video games) as a competition. I'm in this game for character and story! Thus, I abandoned my experiment with being a power gaming, min-maxing, meta sheep. I would keep playing the way I always did, and if that wasn't good enough for some people, to hell with them. Some of competitive elite gamers in my guilds have been impressed with my ability to stick to a character concept while also having a character that is "viable" (as they call it) for group content. I call that a win. If doing my best as a damage dealer is half of what the cookie cutters pull, that sounds like a game design problem to me too.
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  • Andele
    Andele
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    It's a shame, but while any interesting build can be brought up to 25-30k dps you really want 35k or more for vet trials, preferably upwards of 50k.

    Basically you play the exact same item sets and master weapons and abilities regardless of class.
    You stack the same buffs, use the same enchantments, same mundus stone.

    You will find as you try to make your own build that if you take a "meta" build and try to edit it at all you will drop down to like 30k dps immediately because its so carefully constructed, every ability procs something, or keeps a debuff or buff up.

    Aka why playing stamina without a bow is impossible as endless hail is SO MUCH DPS.
  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.

    I think you just hit the nail on the head. I don't think OP understands how MMOs work, at all. This isn't a linear game of Zelda or Final Fantasy, where your only goal is to mash your way to the end, just so you can start again.

    To OP: I can understand not wanting to go through the "hassle" (or to some of us, the awesome challenge) of making the climb to endgame, but I don't understand why you want the bar lowered so much, even at the cost of everyone else's enjoyment. This isn't a play-and-toss type of game. It's an ever evolving, ever expanding, open-world game where anyone can come find something to entertain themselves, no matter their interests, skill sets, or abilities. In fact, there is so much to do, the vast majority never completes every available achievement. This is more than just a game. It's a community, and that means everyone gets a place here, including end-gamers who also need a place to enjoy themselves in this game. We enjoy the competitiveness and the difficulty because it's an accomplishment when someone works that hard for something and then achieves it.

    You don't have to "get it", but you don't have to make statements aimed at taking it away either.
    Xbox NA
  • RusevCrush
    RusevCrush
    ✭✭
    20k is not enough for all content. If you're getting through the hardest content with that then you're getting carried. Enough dps really depends on who you play with. I don't mind carrying the people through most content but I'm not going to spend countless hours trying to make up the difference on skin runs and vet trials. You need to progress to that level. Far to many want those completes without putting in the work. If 20k was enough for all then why are they nerfing Falkreath? To get 10k players through it? 20k is a nice number for most content but certainly not all.
  • Morgha_Kul
    Morgha_Kul
    ✭✭✭✭
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.
    p00tx wrote: »
    Striken7 wrote: »
    Morgha_Kul wrote: »
    Ideally, even with the top notch best gear, you should still be challenged by the basic game content... and even with low end gear, the top content should not be overwhelming.

    That would be a really terrible MMO. Able to complete top end content with low end gear? That means there is no top end or low end; you're just playing a progression-less adventure game.

    As far as your specific issue, to be "good" at anything you have to try. You thought you could be "good" without trying. It's just not going to work, which you have now seen. You seem to have accepted that what you can do is enough for you, which is fine and it's not wrong, but given the first point, this genre might not be for you.

    I think you just hit the nail on the head. I don't think OP understands how MMOs work, at all. This isn't a linear game of Zelda or Final Fantasy, where your only goal is to mash your way to the end, just so you can start again.

    To OP: I can understand not wanting to go through the "hassle" (or to some of us, the awesome challenge) of making the climb to endgame, but I don't understand why you want the bar lowered so much, even at the cost of everyone else's enjoyment. This isn't a play-and-toss type of game. It's an ever evolving, ever expanding, open-world game where anyone can come find something to entertain themselves, no matter their interests, skill sets, or abilities. In fact, there is so much to do, the vast majority never completes every available achievement. This is more than just a game. It's a community, and that means everyone gets a place here, including end-gamers who also need a place to enjoy themselves in this game. We enjoy the competitiveness and the difficulty because it's an accomplishment when someone works that hard for something and then achieves it.

    You don't have to "get it", but you don't have to make statements aimed at taking it away either.

    I don't think you guys quite get what I mean. That's my fault, it's kind of hard to explain.

    As it stands, I can play pretty well any of the overland content with little difficulty. I do the found quests, the story quests and so on, and can accomplish them without too much trouble. That doesn't mean I can't lose. There's still the possibility that I might get overwhelmed if I'm careless, or if I forget to pay attention to my stamina or something. However, there is NO WAY I can possibly compete in PvP. There is NO WAY I can do a Veteran dungeon. Again, this is a character who is decently equipped. That it's essentially impossible for me to compete or contribute in a meaningful way in much of the game's content suggests to me that there's a problem. The gulf is just too wide.

    All content should be playable by all players. Those with better gear should find it easier, but never trivial. Those with weak gear should find it more difficult, but never impossible. I know, it's a very fine line to walk, and in my experience no MMO has achieved it.

    The problem is that every time I've seen this kind of thing in the past, the devs inevitably start catering to the people with the bleeding edge gear, and that leaves less well equipped players unable to play.

    I'll give you a current example: Star Trek Online.

    In this game, I was flying a shiny new Tier 6 ship. That's the top of the line. A science ship, much of its equipment was top of the line at the time. A few things were not, but it was pretty good overall. However, despite this, the ship was not capable of producing the extremely high dps numbers many of the combat ships were capable of when players twinked out the ships with all the bleeding edge gear. The disparity was very like what we see here in ESO.
    But, that was fine, I was able to play the game perfectly well. There were a few things that were more challenging (like the Iconians, if you're familiar with the game), but most things were pretty easy.
    Then came the Tzenkethi. A new race added to the game, they were designed by the devs so the high dps players could be challenged. The result was that players like me were completely unable to fight them. New players were even WORSE off. I at least could survive, though I'd never be able to destroy them (where I would routinely fight off 4-8 enemy ships, I was stuck fighting ONE of these Tzenkethi ships for over an hour and made no progress), they were unable to destroy me either (though again, if I was careless, they might have done).

    This is the problem. Because the game allows players to get to such high dps, it makes content trivial. The devs respond by making new content harder... eventually to the point where it's more than anyone but the dps crowd can handle. I don't think that's a positive progression, so when I see this dps disparity, I worry.

    But, the game is still fine. There's lots of stuff I can't do, but there's still lots that I CAN do. I'll never PvP (I don't enjoy it), but I would have liked to do some of the dungeons and things. I suppose I'll just have to not do those things, since I'm not going to ruin the rest of the game for myself so that I can.
    Exploring Tamriel since 1994.
  • BejaProphet
    BejaProphet
    ✭✭✭✭
    We do understand what you are saying. But the developers of this game have not fallen into what you fear. I’d wager 80% of content is within your grasp.

    Heck, I cleared vetbanished cells 2 a few weeks ago with a group that was doing a total group dps of around 20k. That is one of the harder base game dungeons and that was on veteran.

    There is no shortage of easy content.
  • hakan
    hakan
    ✭✭✭
    What you really want is, entering a marathon ( or a running event)while being equipped with your boots, jeans and sweater not wanting to switch to your running shoes or your more flexible clothing and being able to put up with other runners that prepared, well equipped for this event.

    Dont know what sorcs use nowadays in dungeons but from stamina perspective, just poison arrow+endless hail+ rending slashes and a spammable would yield about or more than 10k.

    Also in video games there will always be a vet content that avarage players wont be able to defeat. Like a boss that you cant really defeat unless you try really hard. Use all your resources or exploits. This has always been the case.

    And from your comments, i understand you are not really trying sorry.
  • Ogou
    Ogou
    ✭✭✭
    hakan wrote: »
    What you really want is, entering a marathon ( or a running event)while being equipped with your boots, jeans and sweater not wanting to switch to your running shoes or your more flexible clothing and being able to put up with other runners that prepared, well equipped for this event.

    Dont know what sorcs use nowadays in dungeons but from stamina perspective, just poison arrow+endless hail+ rending slashes and a spammable would yield about or more than 10k.

    Also in video games there will always be a vet content that avarage players wont be able to defeat. Like a boss that you cant really defeat unless you try really hard. Use all your resources or exploits. This has always been the case.

    And from your comments, i understand you are not really trying sorry.

    No, it's more like wanting to do a quick jog every morning but people are telling you you need to have the same training regiment as an Olympic athlete to be effective. (Yeah, I know, I'm not good with analogies).
    From his original post it doesn't seem like OP ever had any reason to worry about his DPS before as the content he's doing never made it a problem. Is it really that some people don't feel the need to improve unless they're faced with a challenge? Not everyone has to play the game for the same reasons as you.
    Edited by Ogou on January 26, 2019 5:12PM
  • hakan
    hakan
    ✭✭✭
    Ogou wrote: »
    hakan wrote: »
    What you really want is, entering a marathon ( or a running event)while being equipped with your boots, jeans and sweater not wanting to switch to your running shoes or your more flexible clothing and being able to put up with other runners that prepared, well equipped for this event.

    Dont know what sorcs use nowadays in dungeons but from stamina perspective, just poison arrow+endless hail+ rending slashes and a spammable would yield about or more than 10k.

    Also in video games there will always be a vet content that avarage players wont be able to defeat. Like a boss that you cant really defeat unless you try really hard. Use all your resources or exploits. This has always been the case.

    And from your comments, i understand you are not really trying sorry.

    No, it's more like wanting to do a quick jog every morning but people are telling you you need to have the same training regiment as an Olympic athlete to be effective. (Yeah, I know, I'm not good with analogies).
    From his original post it doesn't seem like OP ever had any reason to worry about his DPS before as the content he's doing never made it a problem. Is it really that some people don't feel the need to improve unless they're faced with a challenge? Mot everyone has to play the game for the same reasons as you.

    But he doesnt have to finish the hardest content with the highest damage possible. He can still do 35k and do everything. Read his comment about star wars/trek/ whatever game.
  • Ogou
    Ogou
    ✭✭✭
    hakan wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    hakan wrote: »
    What you really want is, entering a marathon ( or a running event)while being equipped with your boots, jeans and sweater not wanting to switch to your running shoes or your more flexible clothing and being able to put up with other runners that prepared, well equipped for this event.

    Dont know what sorcs use nowadays in dungeons but from stamina perspective, just poison arrow+endless hail+ rending slashes and a spammable would yield about or more than 10k.

    Also in video games there will always be a vet content that avarage players wont be able to defeat. Like a boss that you cant really defeat unless you try really hard. Use all your resources or exploits. This has always been the case.

    And from your comments, i understand you are not really trying sorry.

    No, it's more like wanting to do a quick jog every morning but people are telling you you need to have the same training regiment as an Olympic athlete to be effective. (Yeah, I know, I'm not good with analogies).
    From his original post it doesn't seem like OP ever had any reason to worry about his DPS before as the content he's doing never made it a problem. Is it really that some people don't feel the need to improve unless they're faced with a challenge? Mot everyone has to play the game for the same reasons as you.

    But he doesnt have to finish the hardest content with the highest damage possible. He can still do 35k and do everything. Read his comment about star wars/trek/ whatever game.

    That is true. I'm just saying he doesn't even have to do the hardest content if he doesn't feel like doing it.
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ogou wrote: »
    hakan wrote: »
    What you really want is, entering a marathon ( or a running event)while being equipped with your boots, jeans and sweater not wanting to switch to your running shoes or your more flexible clothing and being able to put up with other runners that prepared, well equipped for this event.

    Dont know what sorcs use nowadays in dungeons but from stamina perspective, just poison arrow+endless hail+ rending slashes and a spammable would yield about or more than 10k.

    Also in video games there will always be a vet content that avarage players wont be able to defeat. Like a boss that you cant really defeat unless you try really hard. Use all your resources or exploits. This has always been the case.

    And from your comments, i understand you are not really trying sorry.

    No, it's more like wanting to do a quick jog every morning but people are telling you you need to have the same training regiment as an Olympic athlete to be effective. (Yeah, I know, I'm not good with analogies).
    From his original post it doesn't seem like OP ever had any reason to worry about his DPS before as the content he's doing never made it a problem. Is it really that some people don't feel the need to improve unless they're faced with a challenge? Not everyone has to play the game for the same reasons as you.

    First off, your analogy is terrible. If you want to go for a quick casual jog, do not expect to perform at an Olympic level. The casual jog is just that, casual. The Olympic performance is only relevant to the the olympic event. If you want to enjoy the sensation of competing in such an event, you have to adhere to the standards in place. No one is telling you that you cant enjoy a casual jog with casual relaxed standards if that is what engages you.

    The op does not have a reason to worry about their dps because the only activites they are interested in partaking in do not require any sort of elevated dps rotation. The reality sunk in that they are very below average in terms of what equates to competitive dps and for some reason this reality bothers them.

    If you arent challenged in any way and you feel no need to improve, no one is going to care. If you start suggesting said low performance should be accommodated in all levels of content then people rightfully so are going to call you out on how terribly bad of a suggestion that is.
    Edited by exeeter702 on January 26, 2019 6:05PM
  • Ogou
    Ogou
    ✭✭✭
    exeeter702 wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    hakan wrote: »
    What you really want is, entering a marathon ( or a running event)while being equipped with your boots, jeans and sweater not wanting to switch to your running shoes or your more flexible clothing and being able to put up with other runners that prepared, well equipped for this event.

    Dont know what sorcs use nowadays in dungeons but from stamina perspective, just poison arrow+endless hail+ rending slashes and a spammable would yield about or more than 10k.

    Also in video games there will always be a vet content that avarage players wont be able to defeat. Like a boss that you cant really defeat unless you try really hard. Use all your resources or exploits. This has always been the case.

    And from your comments, i understand you are not really trying sorry.

    No, it's more like wanting to do a quick jog every morning but people are telling you you need to have the same training regiment as an Olympic athlete to be effective. (Yeah, I know, I'm not good with analogies).
    From his original post it doesn't seem like OP ever had any reason to worry about his DPS before as the content he's doing never made it a problem. Is it really that some people don't feel the need to improve unless they're faced with a challenge? Not everyone has to play the game for the same reasons as you.

    First off, your analogy is terrible. If you want to go for a quick casual jog, do not expect to perform at an Olympic level. The casual jog is just that, casual. The Olympic performance is only relevant to the the olympic event. If you want to enjoy the sensation of competing in such an event, you have to adhere to the standards in place. No one is telling you that you cant enjoy a casual jog with casual relaxed standards if that is what engages you.

    The op does not have a reason to worry about their dps because the only activites they are interested in partaking in do not require any sort of elevated dps rotation. The reality sunk in that they are very below average in terms of what equates to competitive dps and for some reason this reality bothers them.

    If you arent challenged in any way and you feel no need to improve, no one is going to care. If you start suggesting said low performance should be accommodated in all levels of content then people rightfully so are going to call you out on how terribly bad of a suggestion that is.

    That's exactly what I'm saying though (in bold). I can see how what I said can be seen as me defending the point OP is making that every content would be available to all skill levels. That wasn't my point at all, I apologise for the confusion.
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