What's considered good DPS?

bUxx222

Im kinda hitting a wall at 40k solo at 6m. Class doesnt matter, stamblade, magsorc, magplar. 40k max. Never seen the 41

zvavi

40k on a 6m dummy is not bad at all, did u try using a heavy attack rotation?

Morgha_Kul

So... I downloaded an addon that is supposed to measure dps, called Combat Metrics.

With that active, I went down into the Halls of the Dead public dungeon and took on the various foes using various weapons.

My damage rate seemed to be about the same, no matter what weapons I used. Against groups of foes, I was averaging somewhere around 7000-8000dps, peaking around 13000dps. Against single foes, around 4000dps on average, peaking around 6000dps. Now, that's me equipped with Thunderbug's Carapace and Bahraha's Curse gear. I found that MOST of my dps was coming from the Carapace and Curse special effects.

I find that this level of damage is quite adequate. I was able to go through the public dungeon with ease, and quite quickly. That this is so, and that this level of damage is considered inadequate for most DLC content and dungeons, speaks to me of a bad design. In essence, if you want to do the dungeons, you HAVE to have damage output that will trivialize the rest of the game. It's like the devs are designing the game so you CAN'T do all the content and enjoy it.

(as an aside, I don't see how anyone would be doing more damage than this "with just light attacks.")

EDIT

So, took Morgha Kul into the Halls of the Dead for comparison. He's wearing a combo of Defiler (for the Hunger) and Bahraha's Curse (for the Curse damage/heal). I chose them because they're thematic. His attribute points are ALL in Magicka, I was told this would improve his damage.

So, he went in with DStaff and pets, and I found him startlingly weak. First of all, he was getting chewed up badly. On my Templar, Baharah's Curse does enough healing that it can just keep me going against big groups, all on its own. For some reason, for my Sorceror... not so much. Perhaps it has something to do with max health?
Anyway, his damage output was an average of around 8k, peaking at about 13k. Surprised by how little he was doing, I went back to Vivec and respecced his attributes, putting 32 in each of health and magicka. I then returned to the Halls and ran it again. I found my dps had barely changed. My health was better, which improved survivability a bit, but really not by much. Part of the problem is that my Daedric Shield is virtually worthless now, blocking one, maybe two attacks before being obliterated. More, the Twilight's heal is also very weak. I thought they had crippled the class when they nerfed the shield, and I see now that it has not crippled it, but done severe damage to it.

Either way, I'm surprised by how much of a difference there is between the two classes, equipped similarly, with similar stats. The Sorceror has more focused CP spending, but that seems to make very little difference. It's perplexing... but as I say, I'm not too concerned with it because my damage output is quite satisfactory. The issue I have now is how to make my Sorceror more survivable.

kind_hero

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok, swapped out some gear, reset my CP. Now I'm using the Mad Tinkerer set with the Defiler (more for the Hunger than anything, but it does help my 2H sword when I do decide to use it).

That has my damage up to a bit over 10k. So, seeing an improvement. Still way, way behind that 50k level, but more in line with what's "normal" I suppose. Of course, the character has no defenses to speak of....

What are you doing wrong is that you are using a hybrid build which gets you nowhere. You can fight mobs with your fists, the game lets you do that, but it does not mean it is intended to play this way.


So, tinkerer is a magicka set, defiler is a stamina set. In combination, these are mostly useless.


Decide what char do you want to play: a physical damage type of fighter, brawler, archer, OR a spell damage character like a mage, which uses staves and spells? This is very important and it is the decision you need to take early on, when you are getting the second ability bar. Why, because there are so many aspects regarding combat, but if you go magicka or stamina, but not hybrid, it is hard to go wrong with your combat.


An other point is that you need to learn the basics, like using light attacks between abilities, managing resources, how to gear, what glyphs to use, potions, food, etc. All these are to be learned gradually, because for a new player it is overwhelming.


But, you do not need to do all these unless you want to do veteran dungeons (which are not really hard, except for DLC ones), or do pvp. However, do not assume the game is flawed or the way dps works is wrong, because you cannot reach those numbers by simply hitting a dummy. It would be wrong if you could do 40k dps without even trying, don't you think? If you properly place your champion points, you can do normal dungeons and still have a lot of fun. If you want to develop your char further, read some tutorials, or just figure it yourself, trust me, it is rewarding.

You can ask guildies or people in the game to help you with gear. If you are on the EU server, you can contact me, I can craft any set including jewellery.

Vyvrhel

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

So, he went in with DStaff and pets, and I found him startlingly weak.

I am running pet sorc in Necro, Elegant (or Sorrow but after the last patch Elegant seems to increase the pet damage) and Ilambris, both destro lightning staves are goldened but rest is just violet. I have both pets (scamp and matriarch as it works better for pugs) on BB I have liquid, barrage, power surge, on FB daedric curse, shield and magelight or bound armor for the passive buff. The rotation is surge, both aoes, scamp, swap, curse and/or shield if necessary, 1 - 2x HA and repeat, LA is weaved in everywhere. Matriarch serves as a nice panic button and a perma DOT.

This is really a facerolling build and works nicely in all basic non-DLC dungeons, so you might consider trying it. Note that you might encounter problems with the weaving depending on the server mood. In some cases the client completely ceased to react on my input for several seconds.

Vyvrhel

...oh and go Sorrow instead of Elegant, Elegant staves are insanely expensive while the Argonian Muck minder is easy to get (Deshaan quest). And if you do not have money for the Necro set (which is also rather expensive), just get a Julies on body and you are fine to roll. Good luck!

Sparr0w

Depends what your goal is in the game.

Personally I see 25-30k as good dps as that's the bench mark for being able to do anything in the game, bar the vet dlc trials.

Sparr0w

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Truthfully, I don't WANT my dps to be that high, for exactly the reason mentioned here... that most of the game would become trivial. The problem is that if I stay where I am, where I can still be challenged a bit by overland and normal content, I'll be completely unable to participate in much of the other kinds of content, like Veteran dungeons or PvP.

That's why I call it a problem. If I'm at either end of the dps spectrum, there's going to be something I simply can't do. My dps is too high, I can't do regular content anymore (it will be trivial). My dps is too low, I can't do the high end things or pvp.

Now, this is just my take on it. The game seems to be pretty well fine, but I've NEVER done any Veteran dungeons or dailies or anything like that. I've only rarely done any of the group dungeons, like Fungal Grotto and such, and I don't pvp, because I can neither DO nor SURVIVE damage.

But, again, that's just my 2 cents.

@Morgha_Kul If you do decide to work on dps, just remove CP & wear sub par gear when doing anything you dont need dps for.

exeeter702

Sparr0w wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Truthfully, I don't WANT my dps to be that high, for exactly the reason mentioned here... that most of the game would become trivial. The problem is that if I stay where I am, where I can still be challenged a bit by overland and normal content, I'll be completely unable to participate in much of the other kinds of content, like Veteran dungeons or PvP.

That's why I call it a problem. If I'm at either end of the dps spectrum, there's going to be something I simply can't do. My dps is too high, I can't do regular content anymore (it will be trivial). My dps is too low, I can't do the high end things or pvp.

Now, this is just my take on it. The game seems to be pretty well fine, but I've NEVER done any Veteran dungeons or dailies or anything like that. I've only rarely done any of the group dungeons, like Fungal Grotto and such, and I don't pvp, because I can neither DO nor SURVIVE damage.

But, again, that's just my 2 cents.

@Morgha_Kul If you do decide to work on dps, just remove CP & wear sub par gear when doing anything you dont need dps for.

The problem is this person does not want an arbitrary self imposed handicap for the sake of engagement, they want the overall ceiling of ESO universally lowered.

Morgha_Kul

exeeter702 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Truthfully, I don't WANT my dps to be that high, for exactly the reason mentioned here... that most of the game would become trivial. The problem is that if I stay where I am, where I can still be challenged a bit by overland and normal content, I'll be completely unable to participate in much of the other kinds of content, like Veteran dungeons or PvP.

That's why I call it a problem. If I'm at either end of the dps spectrum, there's going to be something I simply can't do. My dps is too high, I can't do regular content anymore (it will be trivial). My dps is too low, I can't do the high end things or pvp.

Now, this is just my take on it. The game seems to be pretty well fine, but I've NEVER done any Veteran dungeons or dailies or anything like that. I've only rarely done any of the group dungeons, like Fungal Grotto and such, and I don't pvp, because I can neither DO nor SURVIVE damage.

But, again, that's just my 2 cents.

@Morgha_Kul If you do decide to work on dps, just remove CP & wear sub par gear when doing anything you dont need dps for.

The problem is this person does not want an arbitrary self imposed handicap for the sake of engagement, they want the overall ceiling of ESO universally lowered.

I suppose that's true, I do think it would be better for the game. Players would still be free to push for that maximum dps, it would just be a lower upper limit.

FrancisCrawford

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Truthfully, I don't WANT my dps to be that high, for exactly the reason mentioned here... that most of the game would become trivial. The problem is that if I stay where I am, where I can still be challenged a bit by overland and normal content, I'll be completely unable to participate in much of the other kinds of content, like Veteran dungeons or PvP.

That's why I call it a problem. If I'm at either end of the dps spectrum, there's going to be something I simply can't do. My dps is too high, I can't do regular content anymore (it will be trivial). My dps is too low, I can't do the high end things or pvp.

Now, this is just my take on it. The game seems to be pretty well fine, but I've NEVER done any Veteran dungeons or dailies or anything like that. I've only rarely done any of the group dungeons, like Fungal Grotto and such, and I don't pvp, because I can neither DO nor SURVIVE damage.

But, again, that's just my 2 cents.

I've parsed over 20K twice in my life. I've also completed normal Malestrom Arena on several characters, duoed 20 dungeons, healed a dozen+ in hard mode, and healed a number of DLC ones on normal.

Getting to 15k+ parses on 3/6 million HP test dummies, using cheap dropped potions

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

From my point of view , DPS bottom line is around 25k .

Actually parser result from an non moving object is quiet meaningless .

There are many guildmates hit over 40k remarked , but they can't survive in DLC HM and V-trial

I think good DPS has to well know about his build , class characteristic , fighting position , mobs mechanism and Crisis management .

This. Actual fights, especially in 4man content will see you at seemingly lower dps than what you should be capable of. Flat, non moving figures where you can just go to town will have you hitting high numbers, but mechanics and movement intensive fights, or Skill Checks as they used to call them, will have you parsing lower because you'll be taking time out of killing the boss in order to keep your ass alive.

It takes a lot more than people think to be a dps, especially in this game lol

Also, I'm damn near convinced you're a troll, but I haven't finished reading this thread so in case you're not....

Pick an attribute and run with it. Hybrid specs/builds are for tanks, not dps, and once you pick an attribute, pick a build and run with it

What always suprr

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I always play my characters as characters. That is, I choose their gear based on who they are, what their abilities should be. That's why Morgha Kul uses the Defiler set even though it's not optimal... it's because it's in CHARACTER. Same with my skill selection (which is why the 1H & Shield set is such a disappointment, being nearly useless in all situations).

Now, I don't condemn anyone that wants to get that maximal damage output. I have no problem if they trivialize the game for themselves. However, I DO become concerned when that allows them to spoil the game for OTHER people, as happened to me tonight (for the umpteenth time). Again, I don't blame the players for this, this is a design choice by the devs.

I think perhaps some kind of mechanism of diminishing returns would have been in order, so you could get more damage output, but the degree would become less and less the more you had. That would have made it possible to get to a certain point with relative ease, but still allow content to be challenging, even beyond that point.

It sounds like you feel that the presence of other players in an MMO is limiting yor fun. I can emphathize with that. Fortunately, I have an unusual sleep schedule, so I can play in off hours if I choose to.

Ertosi

Just pugged a normal dungeon where one of them only fought with fists. That would certainly be the extreme for what would not be considered good DPS. Nobody initiated a vote to kick. I'm sure if we had, they'd have hit the forums complaining about getting picked on by higher level players, while leaving out the part about not even equipping a weapon. Sure they were only level 10 but I can't believe they could have gotten there without finding any weapons. To their credit, they finally picked a random one up near the end of the dungeon and started using it.

Morgha_Kul

So, loaded up my other Sorceror. Another theme character, his premise is simply that he's a storm wizard, using just storm related spells and abilities. He's equipped and build exclusively for damage (at the suggestion of others), with all his points in Magicka, Max Magicka runes on all his gear. He's using Lightning Staff of Willpower and 5 each of War Maiden and Mother's Sorrow light armour.

I didn't take him into a public dungeon, he would never survive. He has no means to heal himself without the Twilight, and his shields are worthless, as they max at half his health, putting them around 5k (since he has only about 10k health). Most foes obliterate his sheild and most of his health in one attack, so fighting several such foes would mean an instant death sentence.

So, I went out against normal foes, groups of no more than 3 or 4. His dps was only marginally better than my other characters, averaging around 7k-11k. The big issue with this fellow is his lack of ability to survive. He used to be able to rely on Annulment, the Light Armour shield, to protect him, but they've nerfed that into uselessness. I have to admit, I'm a little perplexed. He's built ONLY for damage, as I said, but isn't really doing any better damage than my other characters... yet some people are instantly oneshotting normal foes with single target skills like Force Pulse. I'd have to hit them 3-5 times. Makes me wonder what else is going on, since it can't be a matter of a rotation when there's only one attack being used.

Again, I'm not really asking for anything here, just reporting another wrinkle I'm pondering, for the amusement and bemusement of the community.

I'll have to respec, I think. He has to have some health or his shields are going to remain worthless. If that doesn't help, more drastic measures may be called for.

vesselwiththepestle

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

So, loaded up my other Sorceror. Another theme character, his premise is simply that he's a storm wizard, using just storm related spells and abilities. He's equipped and build exclusively for damage (at the suggestion of others), with all his points in Magicka, Max Magicka runes on all his gear. He's using Lightning Staff of Willpower and 5 each of War Maiden and Mother's Sorrow light armour.

War Maiden does nothing for this character. War Maiden increases MAGIC damage, but you are doing SHOCK damage with your LIGHTNING staff and "storm related abilities". You want to use a set which increases SPELL damage (like Law of Julianos) or at least Shock Damage (like Netch). Spell Damage increases all of your magicka based heals, magic damage, fire damage, shock damage, and cold damage, while Magic Damage increases only specifically magic damage. War Maiden is a niche set, which doesn't fit a storm/lightning themed Sorcerer.

Why does he have only 10k health? Don't you use buff food? Buff food increases survivability a lot, and adds damage on top of that (in this case you would use food which increases health and magicka). With more health your shields get more useful. Use Surge as an additional heal.

You can increase your survivability a lot by putting your red CP into Ironclad (The Steed), Thick Skinned, Hardy, Elemental Defender (The Lady). You can increase your DPS by CP, too, a lot. Yes, CP have diminished returns, but they STACK. Let's say you get 10% more crit damage from Elfborn, 10% more shock damage from Elemental Expert and 10% more direct damage from Master-at-arms... When you deal a direct damage shock critical hit, your damage is increased by 30%. And the actual damage will be even more than normally because of points in Spell Erosion.

Additionally, trash mob fights in Public Dungeons aren't the greatest thing to test DPS. When you are doing Public Dungeons, I'd even say don't waste your time measuring DPS. It's interesting to know about DPS in sustained boss fights etc., but for Public Dungeons you build around burst damage. The question is, what are the best skills you can use to do as much damage as possible with your first two to three hits. You won't get DPS numbers comparable to let's say dummy parses, because you can't do your rotation fully / your dots don't tick long enough.

Morgha_Kul

Well, I use public dungeons, because it pits me against the kinds of foes I regularly face, both normal enemies and normal bosses.

I wasn't aware that Magic damage was a separate type, I thought it meant all spells. I'll change that, thanks.

BejaProphet

Next time you pick a theme pick “winning.” The moment you start turning away tools because they aren’t thematically appropriate you need to rethink your theme.

Elwendryll

@Morgha_Kul
The game is complex, there are a lot of things to understand about it, and dealing damage is not that simple.

You're worried that if you do more damage you will no longer enjoy the easy content, and that's totally true. When you're doing a quest and it talks about a mighty enemy that you should fear, and the fight actually lasts for 3 seconds before it drops dead, you really feel disappointed.

You want to do harder content without making the easier content boring, you could for example just put different gear when you're questing, but it doesn't seem natural.

In this game, there is enough content for anyone, any type of difficulty. And there should be content that you can't yet complete, as there should be content that you can complete with a naked character...

There is an easy solution at your problem. Just complete all the easy content of the game first, and by the time you're done with that, you will have improved for something harder. You don't have to do basic content if you've already completed it all.

For example. I only play in normal mode dungeons if someone needs help for it or if I'm farming a set alone. By default, I go in veteran difficulty, because I can solo normal dungeons if they don't have a group mechanic. Normal difficulty is not meant for me, as Veteran difficulty is not yet meant for you.

The first answer to this thread was perfect.

The longer you will play, the higher your dps will be, because, eventually, you'll run out of easy content, and you will HAVE to improve to be able to complete what you haven't done yet. It sadly also means that the harder the content is, the less choice you'll have for your build. People say 20k is easy. It's not. It took me 3 years to do 20k dps, and after that, only one year to reach 35k for the first time, now I can do 20k with a single ability and heavy attacks, that's why people say it's easy. Just take your time and complete all you have left to do, you will figure out how to improve when you actually need to.

Just enjoy the game and have fun playing whatever you want while you can still afford to. If you learn more about how the damages are calculated, how to weave light attacks, and how to optimize a build, you'll get way better at dealing damage, and the better you'll get, the more flexibility you will have when it comes to your build. You can do 25k dps with an hybrid build, and it would be enough to clear vet dungeons, but it would require a lot of practice with your rotation, and optimization of this hybrid build.

Just take your time, go at your own pace, because it's hard to go back, you get accustomed to your dps. I sometimes make somewhat original builds, but I don't even consider using them if I can't do at least 30k dps with them.

So, well. Take your time.