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What is your number 1 concern about racial changes right now?

  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    My biggest concern is only 1 free race change token.

    Altmers are the most present race among player and ZoS is purposely making them bad in order to sell race change tokens.
  • satanio
    satanio
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    My biggest concern is only 1 free race change token.

    Altmers are the most present race among player and ZoS is purposely making them bad in order to sell race change tokens.

    They've changed it to 3 actually.
    Source
    After reviewing everyone’s feedback and evaluating the total number of high-level characters from active ESO accounts, we’ve decided to increase the amount of free Race Change Tokens granted to all players to 3 Tokens, in addition to granting 3 Name Change Tokens, to assist with the upcoming Racial balance changes in Update 21. The Tokens will be automatically added to your account during the launch maintenance window for each respective platform.

    Additionally, we’re also planning a sale on both Race Change Tokens and the Race & Name Change Token bundle for a limited time after each platform’s launch.

    We look forward to seeing everyone in game for the upcoming Wrathstone launch!

    Edited by satanio on February 3, 2019 12:01PM
    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs)
    DW&Bow
    DW&2H
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow

    Current public mag parses on Iron Atro (esologs)
    (non cheese)
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    since the Classrep Notes from end of January are out, its the fact that orcs will probably get gutted to Perf CHange nord lvl.
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vSS HM / vKA HM

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Dawnbringer / Griphon Heart / Master Angler / Spirit Slayer

  • Galarthor
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    Got a new #1 concern with these updated changes:

    The balancing seems to be no longer based on objective / mathematical measures but on forum QQ'ing and subjective reasoning.

    There used to be a 6.5 bonuses budget for each race, but now races that already reached that budget get further buffs, while other races get nerfs and will not make full use of that budget. This is not improving the race balance and sarbotages the entire purpose of this update. If the race rebalancing fails then they could as well not have undertaken it at all and instead have fixed the class balance rather than letting us wait another 3 months.
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    satanio wrote: »
    My biggest concern is only 1 free race change token.

    Altmers are the most present race among player and ZoS is purposely making them bad in order to sell race change tokens.

    They've changed it to 3 actually.
    Source
    After reviewing everyone’s feedback and evaluating the total number of high-level characters from active ESO accounts, we’ve decided to increase the amount of free Race Change Tokens granted to all players to 3 Tokens, in addition to granting 3 Name Change Tokens, to assist with the upcoming Racial balance changes in Update 21. The Tokens will be automatically added to your account during the launch maintenance window for each respective platform.

    Additionally, we’re also planning a sale on both Race Change Tokens and the Race & Name Change Token bundle for a limited time after each platform’s launch.

    We look forward to seeing everyone in game for the upcoming Wrathstone launch!

    Thank you for posting this.

    So, my only concern now is Khajits being better casters than High Elves which is absolutely against the lore. And also Imperials without affinity to magic.
  • phantasmalD
    phantasmalD
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    The balancing seems to be no longer based on objective / mathematical measures but on forum QQ'ing and subjective reasoning.

    There used to be a 6.5 bonuses budget for each race

    Tbh the 6.5 set bonus budget assumes that the individual bonuses and the sets themselves are balanced and equivalent in the first place. But there are some godawful sets out there or some that just got power creeped over, so basing further balance on something unbalanced is very questionable practice.

    However, Gilliam said they were only comparing to the 2-4 set bonuses. Which I guess is sounds kinda alright since the 2-4 bonuses are always standardized raw resources. HOWEVER, using those numbers only works as long as you are balancing raw resources. It's easy to numeralize 2k magicka. "Oh, sets usually give 1096 magicka? Then that's 1.82 set bonus"

    But what about when you reach the more out there passives? "When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds". How do you compare that to 833 spell crit or 129 damage? How can you reduce it to a single number while only looking at 2-4 set bonuses? Or "Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.". How can you equate that to something like 1487 Spell Penetration?

    It doesn't help that the original post announcing the changes doesn't contain the supposed actual values that the balance team associated with each bonuses. We don't know how much they think the new nord bonus worth on that supposed objective scale.

    WrathOfInnos posted a comparitive analysis of the first balance pass trying to evaluate the balance and looking at those numbers I'd say the balance team failed to keep to that magical 6.5 set bonus in the very first place.
  • ProbablePaul
    ProbablePaul
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    The balancing seems to be no longer based on objective / mathematical measures but on forum QQ'ing and subjective reasoning.

    There used to be a 6.5 bonuses budget for each race

    Tbh the 6.5 set bonus budget assumes that the individual bonuses and the sets themselves are balanced and equivalent in the first place. But there are some godawful sets out there or some that just got power creeped over, so basing further balance on something unbalanced is very questionable practice.

    However, Gilliam said they were only comparing to the 2-4 set bonuses. Which I guess is sounds kinda alright since the 2-4 bonuses are always standardized raw resources. HOWEVER, using those numbers only works as long as you are balancing raw resources. It's easy to numeralize 2k magicka. "Oh, sets usually give 1096 magicka? Then that's 1.82 set bonus"

    But what about when you reach the more out there passives? "When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds". How do you compare that to 833 spell crit or 129 damage? How can you reduce it to a single number while only looking at 2-4 set bonuses? Or "Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.". How can you equate that to something like 1487 Spell Penetration?

    It doesn't help that the original post announcing the changes doesn't contain the supposed actual values that the balance team associated with each bonuses. We don't know how much they think the new nord bonus worth on that supposed objective scale.

    WrathOfInnos posted a comparitive analysis of the first balance pass trying to evaluate the balance and looking at those numbers I'd say the balance team failed to keep to that magical 6.5 set bonus in the very first place.

    Well, things are always more complicated with lots of detail surrounding them. I don't know for a fact, but I would bet that everything you can do in the game has a success rate based on a stat or trait, like stamina, ultimate etc.. of which can be 'normalized' statistically to determine a character's overall potential effectiveness.

    For instance, say that they set the bar of target effectiveness to be at a 1. Then, give each stat a 'weighted' level of effectiveness that corresponds to it's level of utility, with unique characteristics that serve as a means of balancing. Like, with ultimate abilities they are more powerful, but they take longer to generate, whereas regular abilities have less bonuses but can be used more often. Over time these will both translate to a certain level of effectiveness in relation to the other abilities they're used alongside. Considering that, and predicting how players will strategize their battles, the devs can make it so that there's balance across the board, with variations only in the details. Like how nightblade uses siphoning attacks to get resources back, and sorc uses that ability with a cast time to get resources back. They look different on the surface, and you could argue that the sorc ability is much stronger, because it delivers resources immediately, but NBs have the added bonus of refreshing shadows which might offset that perceived discrepancy if they have compensated where they needed to.

    As for that analysis, there are a lot of assumptions being made there.There isn't any evidence that really contrasts the effectiveness of the set bonuses being described with the new racial passives in a way that addresses the root of anyone's concerns. Not to be rude, because that guy worked hard on that, but they're just numbers when you consider their scope; where do those values fit when you start throwing in all the variables involved in a regular combat sequence? Making decisions about your characters from that data would be like making decisions about where to turn while driving blind. Which, in all honesty could be fun, albeit risky.
    Bosmer Melee Magicka Nightblade
  • Sekt_Tiberlus
    Sekt_Tiberlus
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    Sorry for my bad english, but i would like you to take a look on a quite a good idea...
    The forum full of whining people. I have nothing against you, and i understand your whining, but you whine about meta-races(like redguards or dunmers) and want to buff them even more. I hope ZOS will not consider their nonsence cause they are meta-lovers and incompetent in aspects of game mechanics, especially such as racials passives. But, i want to offer you something, that would make many players pleased.

    What really is must to be done is to reconsider the whole system. Its not balanced. We, true fans of TES do not choose our race becuase of passives and never did it in single games. We choose becuase we like it. Becuase of aesthetics, of lore, sympathy, someone belives his race is superior, someone not, thats not matter. For singleplayer its really no matter, but in online its a problem. The idea, thats not of mine to be said, of racial morphs is something that can sovle the problem "any race any role".

    Example. Argonian passives. Tank/healer race. But, i play this race only as dps, cause i like this superior race and i like to dps. We all know that race is need to be buffed totally, but, because of tons of incompetent whiners thats not gonna to happen. But, this post its not about my race and i'm not whining. Its just example. lets jsut consider the morphs, that would do well for them and will not make them OP. Also, the morhps are also a very lore-frinedly(don't know how for other races, but sure you will find the way) for argonians, cause there are almost unlimited possibilities of tribes and forms of argonians, cause they can shape themeself with hist-magick into anything.

    1)Resourceful Increases your Max Magicka by 3% Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina
    Standart passive. Its a good passive. It may be good for dps too, but its actually tank-oriented, cause only tanks are hybrid builds that uses all types of recources. Also a little helpfull for pvp. But, lets give people to choice what role they want to perform, okay, my dear ZOS? Just look what i done...

    Morph I, Sun-Blessed(lore-friendly name from Vakka-Bok sun temple in Murkmire) - Magicka dps oriented

    Increases your Max Magicka by 5% Whenever you drink a potion you restore 5000-9240(you can nerf this value if you want, just make it more than standart4k) Magicka

    Now that morph suited more for magicka dd and may be for healers. And, for what important it does not ruin the idea of potion sustain. You can play argonians now as not raw-damagers like khajiit or altmers, but a dps that potion-sustain oriented. Do you remeber the Black-Tongues tribe? Best alchemists, right? Well, this morph is quite lore-friendly also. Saxhleel are magickally superior race and hist-sap contains a tons of concentrated magicka.

    Morph II, Serpent's Favour(lore friendly name. Argonians are devoted to Sithis, and Sithis is sometimes called Serpent or Great Serpent, just play Murkmire, i remeber there are some lovely argonian lady smith that talks about it) - Stamina dps oriented

    Increases your Max Stamina by 5% Whenever you drink a potion you restore 5000-9240 Stamina.

    Now, the morph work for stamina dps. And don't tell me they can't have this bonus, Shadowscales are best nightblade-assassins, and stamina is quite important for such warriors. Also such kind if vitality is important for life in jungles where everything can kill or eat you.

    Morph III, Biomancer(or Life-giver, Transmutation or anythign else that assosiated with Bizarre argonian magic), healer oriented.

    Increases your healing done by 5-10(need to optimise this value)%

    Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina

    It may be a bad idea to make a third morph for a healer, but healer is important role too. Its jsut difficult for me to divide their resource management in terms of a passives. Just consider my morphs as a features, that you would like to edit with more competent view on it. Lets consider next passive.

    2) Argonian Resistance

    Increases Max Health by 9% and Poison and Disease Resistance by 1485. Gain Immunity to the poisoned and diseased status effects.

    This is absolutely pve-tank passive. Also have some usefullness in pvp.

    Morph I, Elder's Heritage(can place some another lore-friendly name assisciated with elder argonians. Elders whre the most advanced cicvilization on NIrn, and that means they must be elightened in arcane arts, and some tribes still believe in Elder Way and even built stone buildings, like mazzatun)

    Increases Max Magicka by 5% and Max Health by 5% and Poison and Disease Resistance by 1485. Gain Immunity to the poisoned and diseased status effects.

    Now morph works for magicka user more, designed more for dd. I decreased the amount fo health bonus, but didn't erase it, cause a litle bit survivability is something that make this race unique. Now thar race have the same amount of magicka, combined with other morhp(if you choose it of course) like other magicka races - 10%, and don't tell me that its not balanced, nonsence! They still have now raw damage bonus, but specialised in expensive potion-sustain.

    Morph II, Swamp Strider(can place any other, that assotiated with survive in deadly swamp-jungles)
    Increases Max Stamina by 5% Max Health by 5% and Poison and Disease Resistance by 1485. Gain Immunity to the poisoned and diseased status effects.

    Morph for stamina lovers.

    Morph III, Marsh Herbs (or herbalist, or herbalism, Argonian have a plenty of plants that are considered as resources for natives, and they like to use them in many aspects of their lifes)

    Increases Healing done by 5%(need to optimize this value) and Max Health by 5% and Poison and Disease Resistance by 1485. Gain Immunity to the poisoned and diseased status effects.

    Heal-based morph. As i said its quite a difficult to design a healing morph here. Lets look at final passive...

    3) Quick to Mend

    Increases your healing done and received by 5%

    Its probably more tanky passive, cause there is no need for healer to be selfish and recieve additional healing, if not in pvp of course. But, tank actually can take additional healing done, cause tank is a hibryd and actually he heals himself with some skills, depnds on build. Lets design some morphs for other roles

    Morph I, Catalyst of Change(its a very lore-friendly if you played MUrkmire and assiciated with destruction and alteration just very fine)

    Increases your magic damage by 3%(only magic damage abilities like templar, magblade or sorc crystalls or just any abilities that depends on spell damage, i just didin't see such abilities in agme that affects only magic damage, but i think, ZOS, you can do it)

    The magicka dps morph. This will not make them OP in raw damage, altmers still have higher values 4% for all elemental that is more important than pure magic and dunmer have best flames 7% and even have a little 2% of other, so don't tell me about balance here. Race still depends on sustain-style dps, not war damage, thats just make them a little bonus.

    Morph II, Venom-Tongue( Or Venomancy, or Venomancer. Or Posion-Blood. I think not need to explain. You already know that argonians even posion themself for hardening and some tribes know powerfull posions, combine this with arcane arts and you receive alchemist-venomshots, resistant warriors with posion in their blood and venom-casters like in Maelstrom Arena on argonian level, so its lore-friendly absolutely).

    Increases your damage done with posion and diesease by 5%

    Stamina-dps morph. SInce almost every stamina-build uses posion its quite useful. Again, it will not make them OP, posion is not main source of damage, and disease is very rare. But, this passive give argonian more charm and lore-friendly feature. If you think this is op, consider that orcs have melee damage, that affects every type of melee damage, including posion and diesease and physical.

    Morph III, Root-Mender
    Increases your ONLY healing done by 10%

    Pure heal-morph, nothing to said. Well, tanky and heally passives need to be somehow divided, if we want to use such system of morphs.

    As you can seem i did not buf or nerf them. Not make them OP, but i gave the player the choice. And i hope ZOS will consider such idea. I can write some other example for other race too, just took my favourite for example.
    Edited by Sekt_Tiberlus on February 3, 2019 6:30PM
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    After more thought about this issue, my main concern is balance.

    The racials don't look badly balanced outside of a few tweaks needed for PvP, but for PvE the difference become more clear. Maybe this is due to the new lead having a lot more experience in PvP over end-game PvE (where those little differences actually matter most). Though I should say even with the imbalance we see, there does seem to be less variance from the best to worst than there used to be, but that won't stop the meta-push.

    Hopefully the tweaks they are making will address some of this, we'll see.

    But if all they end up doing are shifting imbalance around and not balancing them truly, then this whole thing was a waste of time and they could have left it as is and worked on something else. So I'm hoping they succeed in actually making things feel like they are on an even playing field and not like a few races are the 'meta' and everything else is just for funsies.

    My last concern is about the overall design: Despite the fact that I mainly tank in PvE end game, so having a race that does well with tanking makes it easier - something seems off about having three entire races relegated to the least popular role in the game. Nord, Imperial and Argonians I feel like should do a bit better outside of that role, or more should be done to make that role more enjoyable.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • Kalle_Demos
    Kalle_Demos
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    max_only wrote: »
    only giving players 1 free race change, when those same player have multiple CP160 characters affected by ZOS changes, expecting players to pay $$$ for more than 1 race change.

    Thats greed.

    @NoMoreChillies It’s 3 race changes and 3 name changes now.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456728/update-on-race-change-tokens/p1

    Still greed.

    "If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn
  • Undefwun
    Undefwun
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    The people...

    Some had no idea what the changes really meant... but complained anyway because change...

    Some just pure selfish, and just considered their own personal little bubble instead of maybe the greater good for the game in general...

    Bellowing for free stuff and quit msgs before anything was tested... one joker said his DK was now 'completely obsolete" hours after the racial notes came out.. 1 week before pts went live.
    If losing a lil bit of max resource and maybe a few percent dmg renders your char obsolete... buddy sorry then you were not that good to start with.

    Still seeing ridiculously high dummy parses from decent players from the PTS, and still so much fear and anger... just wow.

    The fact some of these ppl breed or will breed... scary...

    Note by: my fav orc stam sorc pvp toon has a few nerfs in store... so it's not like i escaped scott free, but she'll be ok and still kicking ass after a period of adjustment... meanwhile my pvp magblade will prevail regardless of the Struggle St he's been travelling on for several patches now... chill ppl, your pixels will be fine.
    Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
    Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
    Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
    Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
    The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
    Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
    Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC

    Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
    Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
    Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP

    Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD
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