Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

IronWooshu

Masel wrote: »

Let me give you a statement on why I see these changes as an overall improvement. First, let me clear a few things up that people do not seem to understand when they look at these changes:

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
Formula is the same as above.

Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:



Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.



With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:



And the other way around:



It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

Damn why is Nord the worst rank all around? The only one worse than Nord is just not playing and have no class.

SodanTok

xaraan wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

No you are wrong on a 40k hp tank 9% extra health is 3600 hp so we will take a nerf zos need to stop screwing us over with their pathetic needs obvious not even Gillam the trampy rogue sell out even plays the game anymore

That is totally false and just proves you know very little about math calculation of these stats.

On my 38520 HP argonian tank, 9% is 2595

WHAT? 9% of 38520 is 3,466.

If you are looking at the change "in game" and not in calculation there are some things that will not add in to the health boost the % gives you.

But in the end, the flat resource of 1K will be much less for an argonian tank than the 9%.

MATH 9% of 38520 is 3466 but in ESO the 9% IS NOT BUFFING YOUR TOTAL STATS. It is buffing just your base stats. 38520 health is what my tank sees on the sheet. In reality that is 28534 base health from where the 9% comes.

But yes, with this change my argonian (which is incredibly OP race in current version) loses 1k health in very deserving nerf.

MassTerror23

Ive

Xvorg wrote: »

Funny thing? ZoS decides to go full lore with the race changes in the same patch they deliver necromancer...

Inconsistency at its best.

Vehemorth wrote: »

I suggest you add a Name + Race Change token instead of a Race Change. Some characters are bound to their name. For example, I have a Magicka DPS Sorcerer that is a High Elf named Mithrandir. This won't make any sense to roll a Breton, as it won't fit the name and I really don't want to spend money to change the name too.

Why? Because Mithrandir means The Gray Wanderer in Elvish. Derivative of the elvish words "mith" meaning grey and "randir" meaning pilgrim or wanderer.

This is a name made up by the elves as an endearment to the wizard Gandalf from Lord of the rings. This name won't really work for a class that's not an Elf. Also, race changing enables the ability to change the gender and in case the player doesn't like how a race looks like, it will be stuck with a name of the opposing gender.
__________________________________
Regarding the bonuses: I am happy with how the game changes. It doesn't affect how I see things, only make what I already like better. You only need one character for each role.
- Stamina DPS: Red Guard Nightblade (Vampire)
- Magicka DPS: High Elf Sorcerer (Vampire)
- Healing: Breton Templar (Vampire)
- Tanking: Imperial Dragonknight (Vampire)

Buffs: High Elf, Breton, Imperial, Red Guard
Neither: Argonian, Khajiit, Nord
Nerfs: Wood Elf, Dark Elf, Orc

Explain how wood elves are nerfed.

Lord_Eomer

JobooAGS wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

So Bretons are basically better magic users than High Elves... right lol

They're not?

Altmer:

- 2000 max magicka
- 192 magicka recovery
- 258 spell damage

Breton:

- 2000 max magicka
- 7% cost reduction

Bretons also get 100 mag regen too and have resists

They can be better choice as healer but no way for a dps

lihentian

SodanTok wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Wood Elf

• Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
• Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
• Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
• Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
  • A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

Developer Comment

The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

wood elf look terribly useless...



Y’ffre’s Endurance- this is a nerf... imo 21% is much more then 258.. at least on my build..

lets us see this build, please.

2385 stamina recovery. with 21% from current passive.
so base stamina recovery
2385/1.21=1971

with the new update
1971+258 = 2229

difference is
2385-2229=156

stamina recovery loss:156
please correct me if am wrong

p.s. if you need help building stamina recovery. then maybe you should review your equipment. i know not everyone build for sustain, but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

You are wrong. 21% is additive. So put together 514 (base) with whatever your gear of food is giving you and make 21% out of that, I bet it will be around 200 stamina regen.
Now put the new 258 and increase it by all the % you get from passives and CP and I bet it will be over 400

You just got buffed hard and went here to say you got nerfed. And thats the case with half this thread.

ok champion point Mooncalf under the lover give 15% stamina recovery for 100 point.

if 258 > 21%
assume 258 = 21%
then 15% = 258/0.21*0.15=184

are you telling me that 100 point in Mooncalf grant less then 184 stamina recovery?

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mooncalf

Mooncalf? There is 28% from 7 medium armor, there is like 12% on warden, 25% on nightblade, 20% on stamsorc. There is 10% on vampire. There is 20% on potions. 15% on mooncalf as you said. Let me make it more clear.

I dont know your build and how much you were buffed in that picture. But the only way mooncalf gives you 184 stamina recovery is if you are running 1226 base regen. That means somewhere on your gear, mundus and food you have total of 712 regen. 21% of that situation would be the 258 regen. Now you get 258 regen to the base. So your base regen will be 1484 and mooncalf will be giving you 222.

race: wood elf
level cp850+
class nightblade
drink: Dubious Camoran Throne
equipment set:
Night Mother's Embrace(armor set)
Blessing of the Potentates(jewelry set)
Stormfist(monster set)



my stamina recovery is 2300, i got 15% from night blade passive, 21% from wood elf, 28% from medium armor. 10% from Mooncalf(i did not spend 100 point here). i use Dubious Camoran Throne, which give 319 flat stamina recover. and my bosmer is a WW.

2300 /(1+0.21+0.28+0.15+0.1) = 1360

amount of stamina recovery i got from old 21% passive
1360*0.21=285

amount of stamina recover i will be getting.
258

amount of stamina recovery loss
285-258=27

not a huge loss, but still a nerf for me. yes?

p.s. just saying, if i really want.. i could get more.. like mundus stone..etc the higher you have the more you will lose

Vigawatt

So sad to read about Dunmer changes. I've been reading through this thread looking for positives, but it's not there. I have only 1 character, Dunmer pet sorc. Changing stat increases to flat instead of percentages, and the magicka reduction from Dunmer changes, hits me twice. I love the Dunmer culture, so I'm not going to race change, but it just means I can never aspire to be a good player.

I can accept from a lore perspective that Dunmer are versatile, as they can be warriors in House Redoran or mages in House Telvanni, but neither of those houses are hybrids! Dunmer specialize. From what I'm reading it seems Altmer is the only choice for MagDPS now, which sounds like the opposite of the race/class diversity ZOS was shooting for.

I just hope this all comes out in the PTS so they can respect House Telvanni again before the changes go out.

Lord_Eomer

idk wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Magicka Mastery: 3% Magicka Cost Reduction → Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%.

The semantics in this one sentence is concerning. Cost reduction vs cost of our abilities could have different meanings.

It is a huge buff is it is truly 7% magicka cost reduction.

Not huge buff its 4% increase only and comparing other race not significant and trade-off between damage and sustain.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Lord_Eomer

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Argonians and Nords now sit at the bottom of the DPS barrel with these changes, and I'm not sure I like that.

The thing is that while these changes are "mathematically" balanced, in reality, the different roles they affect are already imbalanced in terms of how racial passives interact with them. The key here is what I like to call the "effective ceiling".

PvE DPS is the de-facto metric in determining which racial passives are better, simply because their effectiveness is so easily measured and have an obvious determinable ceiling; tanking, healing, and PvP don't really have that ceiling, as in most of the difference in performance in those roles at the highest level still lie in player skill. Case in point, Woeler, by all means a brilliant tank, runs a Khajiiti for his taunting needs, but you don't see many, if at all, people running non-BiS races for damage-dealing in the end-game; people are even taking into account the damage difference between Altmer and Dunmer and about how "huge" that is.

While I'm fine with the nerfs made in terms of Argonian effectiveness in tanking, healing, and sustain, I still find their lack of damage-dealing passives to be really unappealing, which sucks because I love Argonians. Nords, not so much, so I don't really care for them, but I still have to make a point for giving them some of that DPS buff because I'd like to be fair to all the races.

Fact of the matter is that right now, Dunmer (considered BiS for magicka atm) magsorcs are dealing 6% more damage than the worst race for it, without accounting for Engulfing Flames. This is the number that causes raiders to frown upon people not using the "absolute BiS" races, and I have personally encountered many instances of this "segregation" in my >2 years of raiding end-game, despite a good track record as an end-game dps.

(I've tested it on Murkmire PTS a couple of weeks ago with Dunmer, Argonian, and Khajiiti, all with the exact same non-pet Magsorc build and exact same rotations, self-buffed and taking multiple 3mil parses with each toon, truncating the extremes and calculating the averages.)

I'm going to assume that stamina numbers are similar between Redguards and Bretons; I haven't tested it though, but I plan on doing it sometime during this week. However, the sustain buff to Redguards is entirely unnecessary; they already have the best stamina DPS sustain among all the races, with Adrenaline Rush almost exactly equivalent to chugging a crafted stamina potion on cooldown; buffing it to direct damage sources rather than just melee, buffing those numbers, and giving them weapon ability cost reduction is really overkill.

While I am glad to see that Khajiiti are receiving a buff to their spell crit that brings them up from bottom of the barrel for magicka DPS to somewhere among the top, and am also glad to see that Dunmer magicka damage is being nerfed while their stamina damage is being buffed, I would still like to see something damage-related for Argonians that wouldn't affect their tanking/healing/PvP ability.

These are my proposed changes to the racial passives right now:

High Elf

Elemental Talent: Increases Spell Damage by 258 129.

Altmer are a bit too powerful, what with their Magicka sustain and raw Magicka damage.

Argonian

Resourceful: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 2400 Health, and 3600 Magicka and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Quick to Mend: Increases healing done by 4%, and increases Weapon and Spell damage by 129 for 5 seconds upon receiving any healing.

I'm actually trying not to be biased here and buff them too hard, but I really do love Argonians. Also, I believe these will level the playing field a little in terms of raw damage, while being faithful to the lore of Argonians being resilient lovable hunks without affecting their nerfed utility.

Breton

Magicka Mastery: Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 8% 5%.

Breton sustain is unmatched, but I would like it dialed down a little. Still best, just not by that much.

Dark Elf

Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina by 1250 750 and Max Magicka by 1250 1500.

They're elves. I believe that their magic damage was nerfed a tad too much.

Khajiit

Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75 150.
Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8% 5%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m.

8% in Weapon Crit was actually already pretty OP, and that along with their new Lunar Blessings passive would put them at a bit too much damage. Same for Spell Crit. This tones that down a bit while also giving them better sustain.

Nord

Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 2000. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

This should put them on the same level as Imperials and Redguards in terms of damage; perhaps a tiny bit more from their ultimate gen, but they won't have the sustain for it.

Orc

Unflinching: Increases your Healing Received by 4%. When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 380 250 Health and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

Honestly, I don't know about Orcs right now; I think they're going to be really good at damage but since I'm going to propose nerfs to Redguard sustain I think something similar should happen here. For now, take this with a few more grains of salt than my other proposed changes.

Redguard

Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8% 5%.
Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 600 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

Just trying to get them more on par with Bosmer; right now they're just ballin OP, and these proposed changes would still keep them at the top for stamina sustain.

These are just off the top of my head; numbers can be tweaked, but my goal for these proposals is to balance out dps between races while maintaining their differing utility.

Now, I'm not saying that these are perfect; the update still hasn't even dropped on the PTS, so I have no idea of knowing whether these flat resource increases apply before or after the % buffs from other passives such as Inner Light or Undaunted Mettle. I am looking to spend much of my time testing on the PTS, and get as much data as possible both before and after the changes. In the end, I am hoping for better work done on the racial passives.

Useless suggested changes, you simply want many of races to be unplayable.

SodanTok

lihentian wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Wood Elf

• Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
• Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
• Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
• Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
  • A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

Developer Comment

The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

wood elf look terribly useless...



Y’ffre’s Endurance- this is a nerf... imo 21% is much more then 258.. at least on my build..

lets us see this build, please.

2385 stamina recovery. with 21% from current passive.
so base stamina recovery
2385/1.21=1971

with the new update
1971+258 = 2229

difference is
2385-2229=156

stamina recovery loss:156
please correct me if am wrong

p.s. if you need help building stamina recovery. then maybe you should review your equipment. i know not everyone build for sustain, but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

You are wrong. 21% is additive. So put together 514 (base) with whatever your gear of food is giving you and make 21% out of that, I bet it will be around 200 stamina regen.
Now put the new 258 and increase it by all the % you get from passives and CP and I bet it will be over 400

You just got buffed hard and went here to say you got nerfed. And thats the case with half this thread.

ok champion point Mooncalf under the lover give 15% stamina recovery for 100 point.

if 258 > 21%
assume 258 = 21%
then 15% = 258/0.21*0.15=184

are you telling me that 100 point in Mooncalf grant less then 184 stamina recovery?

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mooncalf

Mooncalf? There is 28% from 7 medium armor, there is like 12% on warden, 25% on nightblade, 20% on stamsorc. There is 10% on vampire. There is 20% on potions. 15% on mooncalf as you said. Let me make it more clear.

I dont know your build and how much you were buffed in that picture. But the only way mooncalf gives you 184 stamina recovery is if you are running 1226 base regen. That means somewhere on your gear, mundus and food you have total of 712 regen. 21% of that situation would be the 258 regen. Now you get 258 regen to the base. So your base regen will be 1484 and mooncalf will be giving you 222.

race: wood elf
level cp850+
class nightblade
drink: Dubious Camoran Throne
equipment set:
Night Mother's Embrace(armor set)
Blessing of the Potentates(jewelry set)
Stormfist(monster set)



my stamina recovery is 2300, i got 15% from night blade passive, 21% from wood elf, 28% from medium armor. 10% from Mooncalf(i did not spend 100 point here). i use Dubious Camoran Throne, which give 319 flat stamina recover. and my bosmer is a WW.

2300 /(1+0.21+0.28+0.15+0.1) = 1360

amount of stamina recovery i got from old 21% passive
1360*0.21=285

amount of stamina recover i will be getting.
258

amount of stamina recovery loss
285-258=27

not a huge loss, but still a nerf for me. yes?

Nope. Because the % will affect the new 258 So you will get 258*(1+0.21+0.28+0.15+0.1) => 448.
448-285=163.
Congrats. You just got yourself 163 more stam regen with next update.

Barezz

The Bosmer stealth changes seem fairly useless for a PvE player, and don't sound that useful for a PvP player either. I cannot think of any use for Stealth detection, but 10% damage increase from stealth meant that I usually open an attack from stealth. The Stealth detection decrease also helped for thieving or assassination missions.

What is the rational for the change to Stealth Detection, and in what ways will it actually be useful?

xaraan

SodanTok wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

No you are wrong on a 40k hp tank 9% extra health is 3600 hp so we will take a nerf zos need to stop screwing us over with their pathetic needs obvious not even Gillam the trampy rogue sell out even plays the game anymore

That is totally false and just proves you know very little about math calculation of these stats.

On my 38520 HP argonian tank, 9% is 2595

WHAT? 9% of 38520 is 3,466.

If you are looking at the change "in game" and not in calculation there are some things that will not add in to the health boost the % gives you.

But in the end, the flat resource of 1K will be much less for an argonian tank than the 9%.

MATH 9% of 38520 is 3466 but in ESO the 9% IS NOT BUFFING YOUR TOTAL STATS. It is buffing just your base stats. 38520 health is what my tank sees on the sheet. In reality that is 28534 base health from where the 9% comes.

But yes, with this change my argonian (which is incredibly OP race in current version) loses 1k health in very deserving nerf.

So you are pointing out exactly what I stated with my second sentence? Congrats.

And in the end, I ended up being correct with the "But yes".

You replied to someone with a one sentence response stating a % value of a number that was not accurate. I explained the actual details. Thanks for agreeing.

edit: also, how was 9% OP? compared to the other two go-to races for tanking it was equal to what Imperials got and less than what Nords got before. So no, it was pretty much right inline. And "deserved" is VERY arguable. The only thing that should have been nerfed was the potion passive IMO, though if all races are getting across the board changes to resource values, then great, it's fair. But it wasn't deserved vs. other races bonuses before and only becomes fair b/c they are all being effected.

Atallanta

Halke wrote: »

Skeough11 wrote: »

That is why she was so far behind Tharn trying to run away!

Ahahaha

funny and sad at the same time

lihentian

SodanTok wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

lihentian wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Wood Elf

• Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
• Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
• Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
• Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
  • A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

Developer Comment

The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

wood elf look terribly useless...



Y’ffre’s Endurance- this is a nerf... imo 21% is much more then 258.. at least on my build..

lets us see this build, please.

2385 stamina recovery. with 21% from current passive.
so base stamina recovery
2385/1.21=1971

with the new update
1971+258 = 2229

difference is
2385-2229=156

stamina recovery loss:156
please correct me if am wrong

p.s. if you need help building stamina recovery. then maybe you should review your equipment. i know not everyone build for sustain, but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

You are wrong. 21% is additive. So put together 514 (base) with whatever your gear of food is giving you and make 21% out of that, I bet it will be around 200 stamina regen.
Now put the new 258 and increase it by all the % you get from passives and CP and I bet it will be over 400

You just got buffed hard and went here to say you got nerfed. And thats the case with half this thread.

ok champion point Mooncalf under the lover give 15% stamina recovery for 100 point.

if 258 > 21%
assume 258 = 21%
then 15% = 258/0.21*0.15=184

are you telling me that 100 point in Mooncalf grant less then 184 stamina recovery?

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mooncalf

Mooncalf? There is 28% from 7 medium armor, there is like 12% on warden, 25% on nightblade, 20% on stamsorc. There is 10% on vampire. There is 20% on potions. 15% on mooncalf as you said. Let me make it more clear.

I dont know your build and how much you were buffed in that picture. But the only way mooncalf gives you 184 stamina recovery is if you are running 1226 base regen. That means somewhere on your gear, mundus and food you have total of 712 regen. 21% of that situation would be the 258 regen. Now you get 258 regen to the base. So your base regen will be 1484 and mooncalf will be giving you 222.

race: wood elf
level cp850+
class nightblade
drink: Dubious Camoran Throne
equipment set:
Night Mother's Embrace(armor set)
Blessing of the Potentates(jewelry set)
Stormfist(monster set)



my stamina recovery is 2300, i got 15% from night blade passive, 21% from wood elf, 28% from medium armor. 10% from Mooncalf(i did not spend 100 point here). i use Dubious Camoran Throne, which give 319 flat stamina recover. and my bosmer is a WW.

2300 /(1+0.21+0.28+0.15+0.1) = 1360

amount of stamina recovery i got from old 21% passive
1360*0.21=285

amount of stamina recover i will be getting.
258

amount of stamina recovery loss
285-258=27

not a huge loss, but still a nerf for me. yes?

Nope. Because the % will affect the new 258 So you will get 258*(1+0.21+0.28+0.15+0.1) => 448.
448-285=163.
Congrats. You just got yourself 163 more stam regen with next update.

ah... lol never thought of that.. hmm i guess thats something. still it really hurt to lose that stealth range... might have to change my bosmer into a cat.

btw. i won't be getting that 21% with the new update. so 258*(1+0.28+0.15+0.1) =394. ill be getting 109 more.

Lord_Eomer

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Argonians and Nords now sit at the bottom of the DPS barrel with these changes, and I'm not sure I like that.

The thing is that while these changes are "mathematically" balanced, in reality, the different roles they affect are already imbalanced in terms of how racial passives interact with them. The key here is what I like to call the "effective ceiling".

PvE DPS is the de-facto metric in determining which racial passives are better, simply because their effectiveness is so easily measured and have an obvious determinable ceiling; tanking, healing, and PvP don't really have that ceiling, as in most of the difference in performance in those roles at the highest level still lie in player skill. Case in point, Woeler, by all means a brilliant tank, runs a Khajiiti for his taunting needs, but you don't see many, if at all, people running non-BiS races for damage-dealing in the end-game; people are even taking into account the damage difference between Altmer and Dunmer and about how "huge" that is.

While I'm fine with the nerfs made in terms of Argonian effectiveness in tanking, healing, and sustain, I still find their lack of damage-dealing passives to be really unappealing, which sucks because I love Argonians. Nords, not so much, so I don't really care for them, but I still have to make a point for giving them some of that DPS buff because I'd like to be fair to all the races.

Fact of the matter is that right now, Dunmer (considered BiS for magicka atm) magsorcs are dealing 6% more damage than the worst race for it, without accounting for Engulfing Flames. This is the number that causes raiders to frown upon people not using the "absolute BiS" races, and I have personally encountered many instances of this "segregation" in my >2 years of raiding end-game, despite a good track record as an end-game dps.

(I've tested it on Murkmire PTS a couple of weeks ago with Dunmer, Argonian, and Khajiiti, all with the exact same non-pet Magsorc build and exact same rotations, self-buffed and taking multiple 3mil parses with each toon, truncating the extremes and calculating the averages.)

I'm going to assume that stamina numbers are similar between Redguards and Bretons; I haven't tested it though, but I plan on doing it sometime during this week. However, the sustain buff to Redguards is entirely unnecessary; they already have the best stamina DPS sustain among all the races, with Adrenaline Rush almost exactly equivalent to chugging a crafted stamina potion on cooldown; buffing it to direct damage sources rather than just melee, buffing those numbers, and giving them weapon ability cost reduction is really overkill.

While I am glad to see that Khajiiti are receiving a buff to their spell crit that brings them up from bottom of the barrel for magicka DPS to somewhere among the top, and am also glad to see that Dunmer magicka damage is being nerfed while their stamina damage is being buffed, I would still like to see something damage-related for Argonians that wouldn't affect their tanking/healing/PvP ability.

These are my proposed changes to the racial passives right now:

High Elf

Elemental Talent: Increases Spell Damage by 258 129.

Altmer are a bit too powerful, what with their Magicka sustain and raw Magicka damage.

Argonian

Resourceful: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 2400 Health, and 3600 Magicka and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Quick to Mend: Increases healing done by 4%, and increases Weapon and Spell damage by 129 for 5 seconds upon receiving any healing.

I'm actually trying not to be biased here and buff them too hard, but I really do love Argonians. Also, I believe these will level the playing field a little in terms of raw damage, while being faithful to the lore of Argonians being resilient lovable hunks without affecting their nerfed utility.

Breton

Magicka Mastery: Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 8% 5%.

Breton sustain is unmatched, but I would like it dialed down a little. Still best, just not by that much.

Dark Elf

Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina by 1250 750 and Max Magicka by 1250 1500.

They're elves. I believe that their magic damage was nerfed a tad too much.

Khajiit

Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75 150.
Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8% 5%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m.

8% in Weapon Crit was actually already pretty OP, and that along with their new Lunar Blessings passive would put them at a bit too much damage. Same for Spell Crit. This tones that down a bit while also giving them better sustain.

Nord

Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 2000. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

This should put them on the same level as Imperials and Redguards in terms of damage; perhaps a tiny bit more from their ultimate gen, but they won't have the sustain for it.

Orc

Unflinching: Increases your Healing Received by 4%. When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 380 250 Health and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

Honestly, I don't know about Orcs right now; I think they're going to be really good at damage but since I'm going to propose nerfs to Redguard sustain I think something similar should happen here. For now, take this with a few more grains of salt than my other proposed changes.

Redguard

Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8% 5%.
Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 600 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

Just trying to get them more on par with Bosmer; right now they're just ballin OP, and these proposed changes would still keep them at the top for stamina sustain.

These are just off the top of my head; numbers can be tweaked, but my goal for these proposals is to balance out dps between races while maintaining their differing utility.

Now, I'm not saying that these are perfect; the update still hasn't even dropped on the PTS, so I have no idea of knowing whether these flat resource increases apply before or after the % buffs from other passives such as Inner Light or Undaunted Mettle. I am looking to spend much of my time testing on the PTS, and get as much data as possible both before and after the changes. In the end, I am hoping for better work done on the racial passives.

Useless suggested changes, you simply want many of races to be unplayable.

Thorvarg wrote: »

Khajiit

Carnage: Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% → Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m.

Too much

Lol what is too much? You want simply khajit to be playable as stam? Its one of best change so far.

MLGProPlayer

What about this for dunmer:

- 2000 magicka
- 1250 stamina
- 1250 health
- 258 spell/weapon damage

Basically, they trade 192 magicka recovery for 1250 health. But otherwise they can hit the same DPS numbers as Altmer. Get rid of the damage reduction passives.

elven.were_wolf

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

The only thing I didn’t like was that khajiit got a higher reduced stealth detection radius of 5m while wood elves just get 3m. That makes anyone wanting to play with the justice system in the game HAS to choose khajiit. So now my wood elf thief is at a big disadvantage in the justice system. As Khajiit get a higher pickpocket chance bonus AND increased detection reduction radius. That’s my only dislike of these changes

Actually, no. What wood elves get is a 3m bonus to SEEING things that are hidden. They get not the slightest bonus to actually hiding themselves. Read the developer comments, it makes it clear that it is about detecting potential threats. The name is a give-away, too. But you are correct, Khajiit is the only race now for stealth, only it is actually much worse than you thought.


Enjoy your day.

Thanks for pointing that out!
Wow, that makes my bosmer even MORE useless as a theif. Bosmer should be good theives in the lore too. They totally destroyed that

FrancisCrawford

Is there any way that making the free token "race change" rather than "name and race change" costs money to ZoS? It seems to me that it just annoys customers by making them feel deprived and less attached to their characters, without actually motivating them to spend more crowns.

SodanTok

xaraan wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

No you are wrong on a 40k hp tank 9% extra health is 3600 hp so we will take a nerf zos need to stop screwing us over with their pathetic needs obvious not even Gillam the trampy rogue sell out even plays the game anymore

That is totally false and just proves you know very little about math calculation of these stats.

On my 38520 HP argonian tank, 9% is 2595

WHAT? 9% of 38520 is 3,466.

If you are looking at the change "in game" and not in calculation there are some things that will not add in to the health boost the % gives you.

But in the end, the flat resource of 1K will be much less for an argonian tank than the 9%.

MATH 9% of 38520 is 3466 but in ESO the 9% IS NOT BUFFING YOUR TOTAL STATS. It is buffing just your base stats. 38520 health is what my tank sees on the sheet. In reality that is 28534 base health from where the 9% comes.

But yes, with this change my argonian (which is incredibly OP race in current version) loses 1k health in very deserving nerf.

So you are pointing out exactly what I stated with my second sentence? Congrats.

And in the end, I ended up being correct with the "But yes".

You replied to someone with a one sentence response stating a % value of a number that was not accurate. I explained the actual details. Thanks for agreeing.

Seems so I never said 9% of 38k is that much, I merely said that on 38k 9% passive is that much. Your response seemed to argue with that point, but anyway. You are indeed correct

megasurge93

"Argonians by nature are resilient creatures, adapting to their surroundings and accumulating themselves to the environment. "

I think you might perhaps mean to state 'acclimating' instead of 'accumulating' in this sentence?

TankHealz2015

1. love the changes.
2. fantastic communication and explanations ( i love to understand the how and why)


Please consider:

1 ESO plus members get X additional race change token(s) and/or a 50% discount on purchase tokens
2 improve the Wood Elf detection passive to be also useful in PvE

Excited to test and experiment!

Chicharron

I only read the part of the khajiit and i am happy that i can use a magic cat, i give a [snip] about the other races.

[edited for profanity bypass]

grannas211

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What about this for dunmer:

- 2000 magicka
- 1250 stamina
- 1250 health
- 258 spell/weapon damage

Basically, they trade 192 magicka recovery for 1250 health. But otherwise they can hit the same DPS numbers as Altmer. Get rid of the damage reduction passives.

no. Stamina and Health are important PVP stats. Theres no trade off with your proposed changes. Not everything can be equal on the target dummy meta.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

What I see from a PvE Trial perspective:

Magicka DD: Highelf or Kajit (Khajit a bit less sustain and a bit lower resources)

Stamina DD: Orc or Khajit (Orc has at least double sustain bonus compared to Khajit( Comparable difference: one has 250 more resources other has an equivalent of 150 recovery to all 3 resources.)

Healer: I dont plat healers but most likely a breaton but cant be sure

Tank: Imperial or Redguard (Redguard might be better as the stamina sustain is insane and it will not be cut by blocking. The health bonus of other races is now negligible - 1k to 2k hp on a ~40k hp tank will not make any difference compared to some of the other bonuses)

The reworks to races are nice and welcome change. They just need a bit more adjustment, maybe some of the 3 stat bonues of some races need a small buff to promote diversity as in PvE noone cares if you have more stamina and magicka at the same time as one is a wasted stat.

xaraan

I was thinking about something else too...

Races that are aimed at support, especially tanking are virtually useless elsewhere.

Was talking with a friend that likes Khajiit and in looking at my choices for going all in on one races: If I'd picked Khajitt they'd be arguably BiS for 10 of my 15 damage builds and still be more than adequate for tanking b/c no raid cares if you are min/maxed race for tanking, only if you can do the job. BUT min/max does matter for damage in that situation.

So after these changes I'm left with 5 weakened tanks and 10 still bottom of racial rung DPS.

NightSquirrel

If you are revising every race, we should a free race change for every character leveled to 50. Seems simple to me. Even a time period on the change is fine, but limiting the change to one single character when you are redefining each race is super cheap. It’s not as if you would even be giving away something for free by letting us have a race change per character. It would literally just be the decent thing to do. Not that I imagine ZoS is much concerned with decency.

megasurge93

As a player who creates characters more based on concept and theme, these racial changes are great overall! Several of my characters are going to win big with these. I do agree with others about the "only 1 racial change token?". It would be better to see at least a few, perhaps based on number of characters that each account has (i.e. 1 token per 3 or 4 characters?).

MLGProPlayer

grannas211 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What about this for dunmer:

- 2000 magicka
- 1250 stamina
- 1250 health
- 258 spell/weapon damage

Basically, they trade 192 magicka recovery for 1250 health. But otherwise they can hit the same DPS numbers as Altmer. Get rid of the damage reduction passives.

no. Stamina and Health are important PVP stats. Theres no trade off with your proposed changes. Not everything can be equal on the target dummy meta.

Which is why health was buffed. +600 health was useless.

Elsterchen

impressive changes

Anoregon

Regarding Argonian: I know this is likely not a very popular idea, but at this point I feel like they just need to drop the potion mechanic of Resourcefulness entirely. Attempts to keep it balanced are hamstringing any efforts to actually bring Argonian racials in line with everyone else. As it's the only racial that is both intelligently/manually triggered as well as having a gold/resource cost it has to be very strong in order to seem worthwhile at all, but making it strong enough to be attractive at large means it's going to be overpowered when used to its max potential. As we can tell from the various tweaks to it over the past few major updates, ZOS has been having a hard time trying to find a sweet spot here, and I doubt such a sweet spot actually exists that would be satisfying to both the players and the devs.

I'd much prefer just scrapping the mechanic entirely and moving the freed up "racial budget" to the more consistent and, yes, more mundane options that all the other races possess. Now that Argonian tank strength has been nerfed, why not give them a little something to make them more attractive options for stamina or magicka damage roles?

DawnWarrior

Sarcasm alert: [early whining system]
WHAT! Ask ZOS to give you a race change token for all your toons!!!! I only have one toon!!!! I demand that ZOS give me enough gifts to equal the max number of toons.
End alert.

Actually, race change tokens are on sale now, and ZOS will (I'm sure ) have them on sale when U21 comes out.
What I would like to see is an increase in the max number of transmute crystals per account.

(Full Disclosure: I have fifteen toons.)