ZarkingFrued wrote: »Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.
Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.
maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.
If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.
^^^^^:::Guy who snipes everyone from a mile away in stealth (which negates everything, including sight lol) gets mad that theres a way to stop him from playing hide n go snipe. I can assure you that snipe and ranged builds need a much harder nerf than dk wings lol.
DeadlyRecluse wrote: »I don't think there is a way to make wings feel useful in outnumbered or even just general large-scale PvP that doesn't make it feel overpowered in 1v1s.
The same is true of many class-defining defenses--if they are useful in open world play, they become obnoxious in a true 1v1 against certain builds.
Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.
The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.
But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.
Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.
The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.
But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.
How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?
Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.
People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.
Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.
The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.
But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.
How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?
Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.
People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.
Nonetheless, all the above was already true 4 years ago. Devs took it into account, and nerfed reflect to 4 projectiles.
What new arguments do you have for nerfing wings that weren't there at the time the ability was last looked upon? Because if the answer is "none"...
Before, the only fonction of wings was to hardcounter ranged skill, and with the 4 projectile reflect per cast, it wasn't good enough to slot in cyrodil, because the 4 projectile is gone very easely when more than 2 ranged guys are VS the dk.
Now, wings have an other fonction, it give snare removal and immunity, something essential in PvP. The result of that buff is that most dk use wings in their openworld build.
Before, the only fonction of wings was to hardcounter ranged skill, and with the 4 projectile reflect per cast, it wasn't good enough to slot in cyrodil, because the 4 projectile is gone very easely when more than 2 ranged guys are VS the dk.
Now, wings have an other fonction, it give snare removal and immunity, something essential in PvP. The result of that buff is that most dk use wings in their openworld build.
So without snare removal, wings were not worth slotting for the reflect.
I am not sure that's a good argument for nerfing reflect...
Before, the only fonction of wings was to hardcounter ranged skill, and with the 4 projectile reflect per cast, it wasn't good enough to slot in cyrodil, because the 4 projectile is gone very easely when more than 2 ranged guys are VS the dk.
Now, wings have an other fonction, it give snare removal and immunity, something essential in PvP. The result of that buff is that most dk use wings in their openworld build.
So without snare removal, wings were not worth slotting for the reflect.
I am not sure that's a good argument for nerfing reflect...
You don't understand.
Wings are OP in only 1 senario : When you meet a ranged player in 1v1 or in a group where there is only 1 ranger player. This situation in cyrodill is rare. That's why before, slotting a skill only for a rare situation was not a good idea.
Like I said, the reflect is bad in 1vX but op in 1v1. You didn't slot a skill that was only good in a rare situation.
Before the snare removal, slotting wings was only good (and OP) VS ranged magsorc or magblade if your ennemy was a sorc/rangblade alone. You don't often meet magsorc or magblade alone to dedicate a skill only for that situation. Slotted a skill that was usefull in rare occasion was not worth it, people prefered to slot a skill usefull in every situation.
Now wings are usefull in every situations, and the reflect that was always OP in certain condition but not used because it was only in certain consition are now on every dk.
Do you get my point ?
Emma_Overload wrote: »Wings ALWAYS needed to be nerfed. The reason you're hearing about it now is because DKs are EVERYWHERE.
Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand.
yeah, because light attacking cost you resources while wings are free to cast
Imagine all of your attacks being reflected except ultimate? Does that sound like a good counterplay? It's like you're playing a stamdk and everything you do gets reflected and then you hear some ape saying "adapt, just slot destro staff" Honestly how the *** do you want to adapt
Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.
The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.
But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.
How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?
Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.
People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.
Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.
Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.
maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.
If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.
That's fine, it's all fine.
Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.
Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.
Streak removed? K then remove chains, nerf incap? K. To ground? Then make leap trash. Stop spamming clench? Why would I do that when my spammable is gonna get reflected anyway, might as well CC you that 2 times you don't get wings up (btw you could use it as well).
DKs already eat your mobility, especially zerglings spamming chains, but even in 1v1 you get constant talons root, fossilize CC + root, snares from doing damage. It already is a thing. It's aids, but not as aids as being unable to touch someone because they have a braindead skill to counter everything. Say cloak is the same, it at least has counters, *** ones but you do, and wings? jUsT LiGhT aTtAcK
That's fine, it's all fine.
Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.
Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.
Streak removed? K then remove chains, nerf incap? K. To ground? Then make leap trash. Stop spamming clench? Why would I do that when my spammable is gonna get reflected anyway, might as well CC you that 2 times you don't get wings up (btw you could use it as well).
DKs already eat your mobility, especially zerglings spamming chains, but even in 1v1 you get constant talons root, fossilize CC + root, snares from doing damage. It already is a thing. It's aids, but not as aids as being unable to touch someone because they have a braindead skill to counter everything. Say cloak is the same, it at least has counters, *** ones but you do, and wings? jUsT LiGhT aTtAcK
You see? All complaining about ZoS not being able to do nothing but nerfs but you're the first one that just WANT this endless nerf cycle, all because you're unable to adapt or to accept that certain playstyles can be countered. In this regard, why would a melee class without mobility just hit "all of the damage" just because some players from the other class don't want to adapt or change approach when facing a DK?
And I'm telling you, you don't want wings? That's fine. Then take away streak, so that when DKs finally get to bring the fight into melee range, the sorc won't reset the fight making themselves uncounterable by a DK. You want to remove chains? As far as they used right now, it's like they're already removed. Leap is just used because is cheaper than meteor and has the gap closing factor. I personally used it as damaging ulti only when I know I'm facing *** who kill themselves spamming reflectable things.
And yes, you can touch a DK. Curse goes through wings. Crushing shock goes through wings. Rune Cage goes through wings. Ultis go through wings. Implosion goes through wings. Streak goes through wings. Mage's wrath goes through wings. And wings cost around 3k magicka, a DK in a fight won't be able to keep them constantly up in a fight if they also have to heal or put pressure on people. If your complain is about a DK turtling up and just spamming wings, then every single defensive mechanism has to be nerfed. Shield stacking, has to go. Streak has to go. BoL, has to go. Total Dark has to go. Warden trees, they have to go. Permafrost has to go. Cloak, has to go. Shade, has to go. If you really want to turtle up you can hard counter anything with any class and any setup. I bet a nice open world fist fight would be nice to play.
And if your complain is about zergling spamming it, just listen to yourself, why would you target what is clearly a tank, all by yourself when you have about a dozen people spamming one skill trying to kill who probably don't even have a single healing ability slotted because they're going into a zerg with potato builds and 14 healers.
Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand.
Then why does wings continue to reflect abilities even when the DKs opponent moves into melee range?
@biggda76 @TheYKcid
oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you
the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range
but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use
@biggda76 @TheYKcid
oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you
the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range
but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use
I mean if you want attack me and just stand while I spam light attacks then it's fine, and you know, you could like literally walk up to me since I don't have any mobility either (mNB)
As for how to deal with being damaged from ranged, ask you know, for example stamplar how go deal with it, so shield or heal. I mean you could even literally sprint wasting stam cause clench wouldn't cc you anyway and as soon as you get close enough to fossilize I dont see a problem
And my problem is mostly mNB so yea, melee ultimate makes me want to go melee so id you like being able to ignore wings in melee as for that idea