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Calls for DK Wings Nerf, Why?

  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Wings is fine, leave it alone.

    lol, k
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
  • NyassaV
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    NyassaV wrote: »
    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

    Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

    maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

    If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

    ^^^^^:::Guy who snipes everyone from a mile away in stealth (which negates everything, including sight lol) gets mad that theres a way to stop him from playing hide n go snipe. I can assure you that snipe and ranged builds need a much harder nerf than dk wings lol.

    Fun fact: I don't use snipe.

    What needs to be nerfed is the 100% control wings offers you in a 1v1. Even cloak can be countered if you get close enough but that is not the case with wings at all. It doesn't matter your distance if you are a magblade you can very well have 100% of your damage negated even if you are using your skills point blank.
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
  • NyassaV
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    I don't think there is a way to make wings feel useful in outnumbered or even just general large-scale PvP that doesn't make it feel overpowered in 1v1s.

    The same is true of many class-defining defenses--if they are useful in open world play, they become obnoxious in a true 1v1 against certain builds.

    2 reflects per person but for unlimited amounts of people
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
  • Sharee
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    Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
    The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.

    The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
    Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
    You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.

    But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.
  • Aedaryl
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
    The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.

    The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
    Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
    You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.

    But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.

    How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?

    Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.

    People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.
  • Sharee
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
    The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.

    The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
    Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
    You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.

    But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.

    How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?

    Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.

    People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.

    Nonetheless, all the above was already true 4 years ago. Devs took it into account, and nerfed reflect to 4 projectiles.

    What new arguments do you have for nerfing wings that weren't there at the time the ability was last looked upon? Because if the answer is "none"...
  • Aedaryl
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
    The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.

    The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
    Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
    You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.

    But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.

    How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?

    Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.

    People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.

    Nonetheless, all the above was already true 4 years ago. Devs took it into account, and nerfed reflect to 4 projectiles.

    What new arguments do you have for nerfing wings that weren't there at the time the ability was last looked upon? Because if the answer is "none"...

    Wings always been OP in 1v1, it's the reason why people always banned it in tournements.

    The reason why people complain right now is because the role of wings has changed.

    Before, the only fonction of wings was to hardcounter ranged skill, and with the 4 projectile reflect per cast, it wasn't good enough to slot in cyrodil, because the 4 projectile is gone very easely when more than 2 ranged guys are VS the dk.

    Now, wings have an other fonction, it give snare removal and immunity, something essential in PvP. The result of that buff is that most dk use wings in their openworld build.

    As I said, the reflect of wings is not a problem in fight invovling multiple ranged player (in this case, wings are even underperforming), the problem come in 1v1. Now that every dk use wings for snare removal and immunity, that's mean every ranged build is hard countered when they face a DK in solo/smallscale.


    What changed is that wings was not slotted in openworld because it was too situational and not strong enough vs multiple player, it was not worth to slot, and people using wings was angry people in duels areas when fighting ranged builds.

    Now, wings worth it because of 2nd effect, and dk hardcounter ranged builds.


    Wings need to be changed to be less strong in 1v1 but stronger in 1vX. That's why making it reflect 3 projectile PER PERSON would be a big buff for 1vX and a small nerf in 1v1.
  • Sharee
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    Aedaryl wrote: »

    Before, the only fonction of wings was to hardcounter ranged skill, and with the 4 projectile reflect per cast, it wasn't good enough to slot in cyrodil, because the 4 projectile is gone very easely when more than 2 ranged guys are VS the dk.

    Now, wings have an other fonction, it give snare removal and immunity, something essential in PvP. The result of that buff is that most dk use wings in their openworld build.

    So without snare removal, wings were not worth slotting for the reflect.

    I am not sure that's a good argument for nerfing reflect...

    However You are right that 3 projectiles per person would be a very big buff to wings outside of 1v1. I'm just not convinced that any changes are needed in the firstplace. And you need to convince the devs. That an ability which has been fine for 4 years suddenly needs changing. That's a tall order.
    Edited by Sharee on January 15, 2019 8:35AM
  • Aedaryl
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »

    Before, the only fonction of wings was to hardcounter ranged skill, and with the 4 projectile reflect per cast, it wasn't good enough to slot in cyrodil, because the 4 projectile is gone very easely when more than 2 ranged guys are VS the dk.

    Now, wings have an other fonction, it give snare removal and immunity, something essential in PvP. The result of that buff is that most dk use wings in their openworld build.

    So without snare removal, wings were not worth slotting for the reflect.

    I am not sure that's a good argument for nerfing reflect...

    You don't understand.

    Wings are OP in only 1 senario : When you meet a ranged player in 1v1 or in a group where there is only 1 ranger player. This situation in cyrodill is rare. That's why before, slotting a skill only for a rare situation was not a good idea.

    Like I said, the reflect is bad in 1vX but op in 1v1. You didn't slot a skill that was only good in a rare situation.


    Before the snare removal, slotting wings was only good (and OP) VS ranged magsorc or magblade if your ennemy was a sorc/rangblade alone. You don't often meet magsorc or magblade alone to dedicate a skill only for that situation. Slotted a skill that was usefull in rare occasion was not worth it, people prefered to slot a skill usefull in every situation.

    Now wings are usefull in every situations, and the reflect that was always OP in certain condition but not used because it was only in certain consition are now on every dk.

    Do you get my point ?
    Edited by Aedaryl on January 15, 2019 8:40AM
  • Sharee
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »

    Before, the only fonction of wings was to hardcounter ranged skill, and with the 4 projectile reflect per cast, it wasn't good enough to slot in cyrodil, because the 4 projectile is gone very easely when more than 2 ranged guys are VS the dk.

    Now, wings have an other fonction, it give snare removal and immunity, something essential in PvP. The result of that buff is that most dk use wings in their openworld build.

    So without snare removal, wings were not worth slotting for the reflect.

    I am not sure that's a good argument for nerfing reflect...

    You don't understand.

    Wings are OP in only 1 senario : When you meet a ranged player in 1v1 or in a group where there is only 1 ranger player. This situation in cyrodill is rare. That's why before, slotting a skill only for a rare situation was not a good idea.

    Like I said, the reflect is bad in 1vX but op in 1v1. You didn't slot a skill that was only good in a rare situation.


    Before the snare removal, slotting wings was only good (and OP) VS ranged magsorc or magblade if your ennemy was a sorc/rangblade alone. You don't often meet magsorc or magblade alone to dedicate a skill only for that situation. Slotted a skill that was usefull in rare occasion was not worth it, people prefered to slot a skill usefull in every situation.

    Now wings are usefull in every situations, and the reflect that was always OP in certain condition but not used because it was only in certain consition are now on every dk.

    Do you get my point ?

    My point is that all of the above(including the 1v1 scenario) was true even 4 years ago, when ZOS was deciding how to nerf wings.
    They took all these facts, and decided that nerfing wings to 4 projectiles is sufficient.

    That nerf wasn't done with the assumption that "DK's wont slot wings anyway", obviously.
    Therefore, saying that today DK's are slotting wings more often is no argument for further nerfing.
  • Weps
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    That's fine, it's all fine.

    Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
    When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
    When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.

    Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
    MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.

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  • Edziu
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    Wings ALWAYS needed to be nerfed. The reason you're hearing about it now is because DKs are EVERYWHERE.

    or maybe the reason why we hear about this everywhere it is because everywhere are ranged builds now which dont want to adapt to wing which get just snare removal which is main reason why reflect is again usable on pvp because wind without snare removel before was realy barely seen

    take away snare removal from wing and you will see again almost noone using this reflect and especailly stamdk will have no use of this skill
  • TheYKcid
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    Weps wrote: »
    Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
    MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand.

    Then why does wings continue to reflect abilities even when the DKs opponent moves into melee range?
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  • evoniee
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    just light attack 4 times while healing or shielding then use spammable again, why it is so hard to find the solution pepega.
  • TheYKcid
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    Edziu wrote: »
    biggda76 wrote: »
    evoniee wrote: »
    just light attack 4 times while healing or shielding then use spammable again, why it is so hard to find the solution pepega.

    Just reapply after being hit 4 times while damaging guy who can't do same why is it so hard to not be a monkey

    yeah, because light attacking cost you resources while wings are free to cast

    Yeah, becuase it's not like the DK is going to pressure and CC you while you're light attacking away. Preposterous! Much more efficient to stand still like a target dummy and whistle a tune.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
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    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • SodanTok
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    IMO wings are just annoying (more so in BGs). Shimmer seems like stronger and more useful ability and would be more OP on DKs than wings, but it would still feel better fighting DK with shimmer than wings...
    It is also way less obvious ability than seeing the big shields rotating around warden. Unless you can pay attention to DK 100% of the time often than not its just good guess if your next ability will land or smack you to the face back.

    And in last 4 years nothing really changed about this. Wings were always way too annoying to fight against. But various changes over the years made the skill fall out of favor be it decline in DK playerbase, sustain issue or just feeling the skill is not worth casting. Neither feels like issue now...
    Edited by SodanTok on January 15, 2019 12:08PM
  • Edziu
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    @biggda76 @TheYKcid

    oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you

    the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range

    but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use
  • Edziu
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    biggda76 wrote: »
    Imagine all of your attacks being reflected except ultimate? Does that sound like a good counterplay? It's like you're playing a stamdk and everything you do gets reflected and then you hear some ape saying "adapt, just slot destro staff" Honestly how the *** do you want to adapt

    I can imagine this on maglbade vs magdk, thats all

    but how about spin2win build which is literally counter to cloak? you get in melee range tot his chees build and you are unable to use cloak because of aoe spam from this guy

    and tbh if not reflect to range build what this dk would do against you on full range build?
    will you let him to get close to you and keep fighting in melee range giving him advantage whiel you have tool to escape and make gap or will you jsut do this gap and again try to kill him from range while he have no even option to deal with you
    he have no range skills, he is not mobile class, all he could do without wings is only to try tank you while waiting for help to kill you or vice-versa to kill him because solely you couldnt kill him as he would be 100% in defense mode as he cant do any damage to you from range which you keep to have
  • Ragnaroek93
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
    The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.

    The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
    Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
    You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.

    But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.

    How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?

    Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.

    People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.

    Petsorc is banned from every tournament too, just saying. It's funny to see how most sorcs who are complaining are playing hardcore cheese pet builds who are used to never die and just roflstomp everything.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • NordSwordnBoard
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    I main a sorc but stopped using a master destro build. DKs wings are no longer a problem for me because I switched builds (still use reach but not master).

    I do not think wings should be nerfed. What sorc skills get reflected?
    What destro skills get reflected?
    What skills are equivalent replacements?

    The answers are on the devs and where they left sorc after no stun frag. They didn't buff wings, they subtracted from sorc and made wings better in the process. That means we don't need to nerf wings, we need to buff something else.
    Fear is the Mindkiller
  • TheYKcid
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    @Edziu I'm actually really glad to hear we agree on that. I apologise for responding sarcastically earlier. I'm just very weary of this debate, and from being misrepresented constantly.

    For the record—I DON'T want wings to be removed, nor nerfed into the ground. I completely agree with DKs that wings don't scale well when outnumbered, and that it should be buffed in this regard—I even suggested infinite reflects while active.

    The only change I'd like to see would be, as you said, for wings to not reflect within a certain minimum range. I even feel 8m would be reasonable—being the range of fossilize. It would ensure that any engagement the DK takes plays to their natural advantages.

    I've never said ranged builds should be able to overwhelm DKs at a distance with no counterplay. I don't want that. I'd like the opposite to be true, with ranged players getting incentivised to close the gap and put themselves at more risk, and my wings suggestions do just that.
    Edited by TheYKcid on January 15, 2019 3:40PM
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    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • themaddaedra
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    I say magdk shuts down a magblade with one skill, they say go fight melee.

    You go fight a magdk melee. Jokers.

    On another note, i don't want wings nerfed or anything. If i have to change my way/target when i see a magdk so be it. I'd rather have people enjoy things.
    PC|EU
  • Edziu
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    yes @TheYKcid as I havn't seen many great option to change wings to get more counterplay against them for specific build without nerfing them to the groud your option is the best
    as at all wing for dk are supposed to defent from pure range build, ok but at all I know it is very frustrating if you get finally into melee range with this dk your tools still are same, not change while now not dk is punised for being in range with you but you are punished for being in melee range and still have same tools

    this is grear option to counter play as dk have no tools to fight in range..so he forces you to fight with him with melee but you cant if still have onlyy range setup...so here is going counter for price - you are going to be ine melee range with dk for getting acces to all your tool while sacrifacing your safe long gap from which he couldnt do anything to you but with reflect also you couldt do anything

    so this is great middle as you both are going to meet in melee range and with it you both can finally fight eachother - this sounds as great balance option to something not balanced the best - tbh this dk reflect have great predispositions to be really super balanced in right way while many skills dont have that great options to be balanced for that much at once and that many different builds
  • CaliMade
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    NyassaV wrote: »
    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

    Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

    maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

    If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

    Can confirm there is absolutely no class in this game that gets tta 100% of their damage negated by wings


    Im a Mag Dk main who has recently been playing ALOT of sorc.

    the dk-Sorc relationship needs adjusting as a whole

    Wings negate frag, the primary source of burst from a sorc but on the flipside if ANY Sorc dies to a Mag Dk they need a better build.

    Sorc v Magdk is one of the oldest and ugliest stalemates in eso.

    I largely Ignore magdks on my sorc because they do no relevant damage. And in the event that I do have to pay any mind to them I just Wait for the perfect time to plant my frag as I do against any class.


    best self healing LMAO

    1 heal debuff boi



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  • Weps
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    biggda76 wrote: »
    Weps wrote: »
    That's fine, it's all fine.

    Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
    When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
    When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.

    Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
    MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.

    Streak removed? K then remove chains, nerf incap? K. To ground? Then make leap trash. Stop spamming clench? Why would I do that when my spammable is gonna get reflected anyway, might as well CC you that 2 times you don't get wings up (btw you could use it as well).

    DKs already eat your mobility, especially zerglings spamming chains, but even in 1v1 you get constant talons root, fossilize CC + root, snares from doing damage. It already is a thing. It's aids, but not as aids as being unable to touch someone because they have a braindead skill to counter everything. Say cloak is the same, it at least has counters, *** ones but you do, and wings? jUsT LiGhT aTtAcK

    You see? All complaining about ZoS not being able to do nothing but nerfs but you're the first one that just WANT this endless nerf cycle, all because you're unable to adapt or to accept that certain playstyles can be countered. In this regard, why would a melee class without mobility just hit "all of the damage" just because some players from the other class don't want to adapt or change approach when facing a DK?
    And I'm telling you, you don't want wings? That's fine. Then take away streak, so that when DKs finally get to bring the fight into melee range, the sorc won't reset the fight making themselves uncounterable by a DK. You want to remove chains? As far as they used right now, it's like they're already removed. Leap is just used because is cheaper than meteor and has the gap closing factor. I personally used it as damaging ulti only when I know I'm facing *** who kill themselves spamming reflectable things.

    And yes, you can touch a DK. Curse goes through wings. Crushing shock goes through wings. Rune Cage goes through wings. Ultis go through wings. Implosion goes through wings. Streak goes through wings. Mage's wrath goes through wings. And wings cost around 3k magicka, a DK in a fight won't be able to keep them constantly up in a fight if they also have to heal or put pressure on people. If your complain is about a DK turtling up and just spamming wings, then every single defensive mechanism has to be nerfed. Shield stacking, has to go. Streak has to go. BoL, has to go. Total Dark has to go. Warden trees, they have to go. Permafrost has to go. Cloak, has to go. Shade, has to go. If you really want to turtle up you can hard counter anything with any class and any setup. I bet a nice open world fist fight would be nice to play.
    And if your complain is about zergling spamming it, just listen to yourself, why would you target what is clearly a tank, all by yourself when you have about a dozen people spamming one skill trying to kill who probably don't even have a single healing ability slotted because they're going into a zerg with potato builds and 14 healers.

    PS4 EU - CP 1000+ - EP Loyal

    My EU Preciouses
    Aemon Dk | Imperial Dragonknight Tank
    Guari Gaburiefu | PvP Stamplar - Soon PvE tank
    Nadija Zenobia | 45k+ PvE Dk - PvP Leaper
    Naga del Serpente | High Elf Magicka Sorc PVE DPS - Soon tb 2nd crafter
    Azor Ahai V | Dunmer Magicka DK for PVP and Pve
    Jabba D'Cat | Khajiit Stamplar
    Gennarino Auditore | 7k Weapon damage Bosmer Stamblade / Ganking experimental build
    Rina Inbasu | Dunmer Magblade, my bomblade
    Zelgadis Greywords | High Elf Magplar
    Nachael Jordan | Redguard Stamsorc DPS
    Orghuz Diul | StamWar DPS
    This-Will-Buff-If | Argonian Warden Trial Off tank
    Amelia Tesla Sallilune | Breton Magden PvP DD / PvE healer
    Sap-My-Shield | PvP Nooblade, now dead PvE Tank
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Weps wrote: »
    biggda76 wrote: »
    Weps wrote: »
    That's fine, it's all fine.

    Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
    When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
    When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.

    Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
    MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.

    Streak removed? K then remove chains, nerf incap? K. To ground? Then make leap trash. Stop spamming clench? Why would I do that when my spammable is gonna get reflected anyway, might as well CC you that 2 times you don't get wings up (btw you could use it as well).

    DKs already eat your mobility, especially zerglings spamming chains, but even in 1v1 you get constant talons root, fossilize CC + root, snares from doing damage. It already is a thing. It's aids, but not as aids as being unable to touch someone because they have a braindead skill to counter everything. Say cloak is the same, it at least has counters, *** ones but you do, and wings? jUsT LiGhT aTtAcK

    You see? All complaining about ZoS not being able to do nothing but nerfs but you're the first one that just WANT this endless nerf cycle, all because you're unable to adapt or to accept that certain playstyles can be countered. In this regard, why would a melee class without mobility just hit "all of the damage" just because some players from the other class don't want to adapt or change approach when facing a DK?
    And I'm telling you, you don't want wings? That's fine. Then take away streak, so that when DKs finally get to bring the fight into melee range, the sorc won't reset the fight making themselves uncounterable by a DK. You want to remove chains? As far as they used right now, it's like they're already removed. Leap is just used because is cheaper than meteor and has the gap closing factor. I personally used it as damaging ulti only when I know I'm facing *** who kill themselves spamming reflectable things.

    And yes, you can touch a DK. Curse goes through wings. Crushing shock goes through wings. Rune Cage goes through wings. Ultis go through wings. Implosion goes through wings. Streak goes through wings. Mage's wrath goes through wings. And wings cost around 3k magicka, a DK in a fight won't be able to keep them constantly up in a fight if they also have to heal or put pressure on people. If your complain is about a DK turtling up and just spamming wings, then every single defensive mechanism has to be nerfed. Shield stacking, has to go. Streak has to go. BoL, has to go. Total Dark has to go. Warden trees, they have to go. Permafrost has to go. Cloak, has to go. Shade, has to go. If you really want to turtle up you can hard counter anything with any class and any setup. I bet a nice open world fist fight would be nice to play.
    And if your complain is about zergling spamming it, just listen to yourself, why would you target what is clearly a tank, all by yourself when you have about a dozen people spamming one skill trying to kill who probably don't even have a single healing ability slotted because they're going into a zerg with potato builds and 14 healers.

    Weps, what platform do you play on?? Just curious. :)

    Edit: Just realised you´re PS4........
    @biggda76
    Edited by Qbiken on January 15, 2019 1:00PM
  • Weps
    Weps
    ✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Weps wrote: »
    Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
    MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand.

    Then why does wings continue to reflect abilities even when the DKs opponent moves into melee range?

    You focused too much on the melee and not the final part of the quote.
    To gain the upperhand. That's all about it when it comes to PvP, one player tries to gain the upperhand on another one.

    We can agree that a skill created in order to reflect ranged attacks is least efficient in melee range, no?
    Yes it can still reflect but out of 4 projectiles they can reflect, in a melee situation you'll probably just reflect one, thus making the skill extremely expensive and not worthy. That's where you're gonna gain the upperhand on a wing spamming DK in melee, with pressure.
    PS4 EU - CP 1000+ - EP Loyal

    My EU Preciouses
    Aemon Dk | Imperial Dragonknight Tank
    Guari Gaburiefu | PvP Stamplar - Soon PvE tank
    Nadija Zenobia | 45k+ PvE Dk - PvP Leaper
    Naga del Serpente | High Elf Magicka Sorc PVE DPS - Soon tb 2nd crafter
    Azor Ahai V | Dunmer Magicka DK for PVP and Pve
    Jabba D'Cat | Khajiit Stamplar
    Gennarino Auditore | 7k Weapon damage Bosmer Stamblade / Ganking experimental build
    Rina Inbasu | Dunmer Magblade, my bomblade
    Zelgadis Greywords | High Elf Magplar
    Nachael Jordan | Redguard Stamsorc DPS
    Orghuz Diul | StamWar DPS
    This-Will-Buff-If | Argonian Warden Trial Off tank
    Amelia Tesla Sallilune | Breton Magden PvP DD / PvE healer
    Sap-My-Shield | PvP Nooblade, now dead PvE Tank
  • biggda76
    biggda76
    ✭✭✭
    Edziu wrote: »
    @biggda76 @TheYKcid

    oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you

    the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range

    but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use

    I mean if you want attack me and just stand while I spam light attacks then it's fine, and you know, you could like literally walk up to me since I don't have any mobility either (mNB)

    As for how to deal with being damaged from ranged, ask you know, for example stamplar how go deal with it, so shield or heal. I mean you could even literally sprint wasting stam cause clench wouldn't cc you anyway and as soon as you get close enough to fossilize I dont see a problem

    And my problem is mostly mNB so yea, melee ultimate makes me want to go melee so id you like being able to ignore wings in melee as for that idea
  • Edziu
    Edziu
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    biggda76 wrote: »
    Edziu wrote: »
    @biggda76 @TheYKcid

    oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you

    the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range

    but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use

    I mean if you want attack me and just stand while I spam light attacks then it's fine, and you know, you could like literally walk up to me since I don't have any mobility either (mNB)

    As for how to deal with being damaged from ranged, ask you know, for example stamplar how go deal with it, so shield or heal. I mean you could even literally sprint wasting stam cause clench wouldn't cc you anyway and as soon as you get close enough to fossilize I dont see a problem

    And my problem is mostly mNB so yea, melee ultimate makes me want to go melee so id you like being able to ignore wings in melee as for that idea

    so ok, here I understand you as magnb as magnb is in much worse spot than sorc against dk with wing
    and so here is great option from @TheYKcid to make wings reflect work only if you are casting prjectiles from longer range tha this melee range/10m/15m as how it could looks to make work your build properly if you are in this melee range eve forced by your own build while having most skills as projectiles even in your own build so not reflect is forcing you to go in melee range but just your build and reflect is just K.O. for someone like you

    sorry if I flamed you before or something..but you know...99% people complaing loudly about wings are just magsorcs
  • biggda76
    biggda76
    ✭✭✭
    Yeah having wings not work would please me as mNB and anything else I play since I don't use wings on my stamDK as well but I see majority being DKs being sad it's useless skill when in melee range.

    And don't worry forums are to flame cause there usually is nothing reasonable anyway, and ye soz.

    Yes gotta love sorc wanting a lot but let's not turn this post into sorc salt mine, other day other post
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