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Calls for DK Wings Nerf, Why?
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TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Kadoin Cloak doesn't have an I-frame, though. That's an old myth.
Yes, it disjoints incoming projectiles, so any projectile en-route when you cloak will be nullified. It absolutely does not nullify anything AoE, though. We used to think it did because it seemed to make Dawnbreakers disappear, but this was recently revealed to be a unique client/server desync caused by the mechanics of DB, and that the NB actually takes full damage even if it isn't reflected client-side.
Don't get me wrong—I'm not defending cloak. It is absolutely OP in certain scenarios (eg. against builds with only single-target, in most 1v1s, etc.). It's also laughably worthless in other situations—try playing a medium Stamblade in high-MMR BGs where nearly every game has a Warden-based team dropping Shalks/DB/Spin/Perma every engagement.
It's not a whole lot different from wings, in the sense that it can be simultaneously OP & UP depending on the scenario.
Rather that resigning ourselves to this status quo, why not rebalance said abilities to make them more consistently balanced across the board? Wings could definitely use it, and I wouldn't be opposed to cloak getting a balance pass, either.
I don't know if you realize this, but I do have an NB and I do use that skill. The i-frame I mention is not an observation vs. an NB, its from playing one and actually being able to use it to tank a zerg. Only a few AoEs stop me from doing it, and I can list them: negate magic (ult), icy rage (ult, because immobilize), ice wall (since immobilize works even without you taking damage apparently, if it turns on you will take 1 tick even if you used the i-frame), sorc curse, sellistrix (set), bahraha curse (set). Aside from that, I've used that skill to cut all damage even from zerg spamming attacks and siege attack too. And yea, I cloaked and cut the damage from a steel tornado spammer and apparently got reported, so ZOS can see that too if that guy wasn't yanking my chain. Considering how butthurt he was, I have no doubt he sent it in "with vid"
Now you can say it doesn't work that way, but whatever. ZOS coders know whether that frame really exists or not, and I want them to see my post and do something about it because its a BAD "fix" to a problem (or an unintended effect), and it can be abused on live.
Siege direct hits will absolutely pop you out of cloak—it's the lingering DoT that would be suppressed by cloak, similar to all other DoTs. In fact this doesn't work anymore since Murkmire, since siege DoTs now break cloak.
The part about you surviving in the middle of a zerg could be due to 1) most zerglings spam projectiles (bow LAs, Snipe) or otherwise cloak-interruptable skills (Jbeam), and 2) server lag (especially bad when zergs are present) can completely mess-up targeting. I've strolled through zergs unharmed in the past, during particularly laggy events, on non-NB toons, too. ultimately it's not possible to draw specific conclusions from anecdotes like these.
Steel Tornado has a buggy interaction with cloak where it doesn't animate, even though damage is recorded, as described in the thread by @Thogard where he first published his finding about disappearing DBs. He might be able to elaborate more, or you can check out the thread yourself:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415646/vid-thogard-gilliam-find-your-missing-and-cloaked-dawnbreakers/p1
To my knowledge, there is no hard evidence of an I-frame on cloak, though bugs and intended mechanics can create the illusion of one. I an open to re-evaluating that if proof is provided, though.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
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I am focussing specifically on wings because that is the subject of the thread and what I want to adress. The broken nature of cloak aside (I'd love to see it nerfed actually), wings completely eliminate a magblade from the fight. This shouldn't happen in a game with so few classes.Savos_Saren wrote: »
lmao another one who doesn't get the point. Read my first paragraph again. Read it carefully, especially the part where I say "I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking." And try to restrain the trigger in your overheating brain. Relax I'm not saying cloak is fine. Relaaaax.Savos_Saren wrote: »
Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.
At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.
Same with cloak.Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.
Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.
maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.
If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.
I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.
At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?
I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.
[snip]
[Edit for bait.]
A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.
Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected
Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent magdk.
And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.
I bet you won’t list how many DOTs cloak supresses or how many skills “miss” because of cloak.
I bet you, by far, they outnumber the reflected abilities of wings.
...just saying.
Cute. But why are you specifically arguing against one of the two? Seems like you have an agenda to play out.
Get woke while I'm triggered. That's lit, fam.
Look, all I'm asking for is the ability to fight back. I don't even want wings to become useless, I am just saying that with the way stuff is right now, it is too strong is certain match ups. 1 skill countering an entire class' offensive bar to the point where that class cant even apply any real counter pressure is very bad design. Wings both prevent any attacks from even landing, AND at the same time still allows for the magdk to keep attacking without pauze. In this aspect it is a way different beast than cloak, even though cloak in general might be more OP.
As I said before, while being in cloak you cannot attack, so the two are NOT comparable. That is why I would wish for people to stop referring to cloak when people address the issue of wings vs ranged magblade. It is so tiresome to read the same fallacies over and over.
One plus one is two, any sensible ranged magblade will just run away because there is no way in hell you can win. That is all I ask for: the ability to even have a reasonable chance to win and do damage. I have no problem with being at a disadvantage, because that is inherent to MMO pvp, but in this particular situation it is way out of line.
Is this such a hard thing to see?1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
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If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade?
Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?
Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).
One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.
Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?
Even terms and all that.
Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.
You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.
A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.
No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.
Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.
Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?
With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.
Hahaha Seriously? So the only option is to try to gank DK (one of the most tanky classes in the game) or flee? Then you couldn't find any counters, good, hope this is enough evidence of need for changes.
You can turn invisible, thats the most powerful ability in a PvP game, bar none. You can burst people from range. And when there is ONE speed bump to your playstyle, you have the gall to come here and demand its nerf? Hahaha Seriously?
One? Nope, literally everything that works against melee attacks works vs ranged to, this is the one that completely disables it, it's not a speed bump it's a wall that stops ranged classes and forces them to use another road.
With the ability to turn invisible on demand - yes, one. Unless you *** up, with cloak/shade you are virtually uncatchable and able to pick/kill your targets at will. Except for wings. Nerf now!
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Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
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If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?
Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).
One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.
Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?
Even terms and all that.
Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.
You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.
A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.
No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.
Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.
Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?
With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.
Hahaha Seriously? So the only option is to try to gank DK (one of the most tanky classes in the game) or flee? Then you couldn't find any counters, good, hope this is enough evidence of need for changes.
You can turn invisible, thats the most powerful ability in a PvP game, bar none. You can burst people from range. And when there is ONE speed bump to your playstyle, you have the gall to come here and demand its nerf? Hahaha Seriously?
One? Nope, literally everything that works against melee attacks works vs ranged to, this is the one that completely disables it, it's not a speed bump it's a wall that stops ranged classes and forces them to use another road.
With the ability to turn invisible on demand - yes, one. Unless you *** up, with cloak/shade you are virtually uncatchable and able to pick/kill your targets at will. Except for wings. Nerf now!
Did you stuck on "invisibility on demand"? What's the difference between ranged magblade with cloak and e.g. high mobility any class? If you can't get to them you won't kill them either. Cloak has nothing to do with your argument, TBH proposed change would be incentive to get into melee range and allow for better chance to stay on them and kill them.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
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If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?
Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).
One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.
Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?
Even terms and all that.
Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.
You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.
A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.
No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.
Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.
Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?
With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.
Hahaha Seriously? So the only option is to try to gank DK (one of the most tanky classes in the game) or flee? Then you couldn't find any counters, good, hope this is enough evidence of need for changes.
You can turn invisible, thats the most powerful ability in a PvP game, bar none. You can burst people from range. And when there is ONE speed bump to your playstyle, you have the gall to come here and demand its nerf? Hahaha Seriously?
One? Nope, literally everything that works against melee attacks works vs ranged to, this is the one that completely disables it, it's not a speed bump it's a wall that stops ranged classes and forces them to use another road.
With the ability to turn invisible on demand - yes, one. Unless you *** up, with cloak/shade you are virtually uncatchable and able to pick/kill your targets at will. Except for wings. Nerf now!
Did you stuck on "invisibility on demand"? What's the difference between ranged magblade with cloak and e.g. high mobility any class? If you can't get to them you won't kill them either. Cloak has nothing to do with your argument, TBH proposed change would be incentive to get into melee range and allow for better chance to stay on them and kill them.
Initiative. You get to pick your fights, and disengage from those unfavorable to you. As opposed to, say, the mDK you are complaining about. He's stuck with whatever he gets, be it favorable to him or not.
Other high mobility classes are still vulnerable to being hunted down because they are visible. You aren't. As soon as you port to shade (through a wall, or up a cliff) and cloak, you are safe. No other class has that kind of freedom in choosing where and when to fight.Edited by Sharee on January 17, 2019 2:39PM4 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
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If you would take the cloak why don't you play magblade? Maybe because there are skills and tools that can completely disable cloak? Can magblade have skill or potion to disable reflect and make it completely useless?
Sure - as soon as it starts reflecting everything cloak works against (basically everything except AOE). Then, a way to disable reflect would be warranted, same as cloak.Nah I'm not trying to say wings are game breaking but change proposed by @TheYKcid, so the wings would reflect only projectiles fired from range greater than 8m, and in turn it would reflect let's say 4 projectiles PER PERSON looks IMHO like a balanced and great change for both sides. (TBH shimmering should be treated the same way).
One one hand ranged builds have a chance to fight mdk on even terms, on the other hand DKs get awesome tool against ranged zergs, snipe spammers etc. bringing back wings some glory from the past. Both sides win.
Will your cloak stop working against the DK within 8m of him?
Even terms and all that.
Yes—because Cloak can be broken through Breath, Talons, Volatile, and any other untargeted AoE you might have slotted on your bar.
You can also hotbar invis pots to counter cloak with 100% efficacy.
A ranged Magblade, on the other hand, has no counterplay for wings.
No one ever asked for all skills to be made identical in function. We're asking for certain skills to be given more counterplay.
Wings *are* the counterplay to your magblade. What you are asking for isn't counterplay, but the ability to *ignore* the counterplay to your build.
Then what is counterplay for ranged magblade vs wings?
With invisibility on demand, you have all the initiative in the world. Make use of it. TESO isn't a dueling arena.
Hahaha Seriously? So the only option is to try to gank DK (one of the most tanky classes in the game) or flee? Then you couldn't find any counters, good, hope this is enough evidence of need for changes.
You can turn invisible, thats the most powerful ability in a PvP game, bar none. You can burst people from range. And when there is ONE speed bump to your playstyle, you have the gall to come here and demand its nerf? Hahaha Seriously?
One? Nope, literally everything that works against melee attacks works vs ranged to, this is the one that completely disables it, it's not a speed bump it's a wall that stops ranged classes and forces them to use another road.
With the ability to turn invisible on demand - yes, one. Unless you *** up, with cloak/shade you are virtually uncatchable and able to pick/kill your targets at will. Except for wings. Nerf now!
Did you stuck on "invisibility on demand"? What's the difference between ranged magblade with cloak and e.g. high mobility any class? If you can't get to them you won't kill them either. Cloak has nothing to do with your argument, TBH proposed change would be incentive to get into melee range and allow for better chance to stay on them and kill them.
Initiative. You get to pick your fights, and disengage from those unfavorable to you. As opposed to, say, the mDK you are complaining about. He's stuck with whatever he gets, be it favorable to him or not.
Other high mobility classes are still vulnerable to being hunted down because they are visible. You aren't. As soon as you port to shade (through a wall, or up a cliff) and cloak, you are safe. No other class has that kind of freedom in choosing where and when to fight.
Well that's true but only partially. Sorcs can do this pretty good to, any highly mobile class can outrun pursuit and disengage at will (always have invisibility potion on your bar if pursuit is very persistent). Yes NBs and sorcs are the best hit'n'run classes, that's why they are more squishy, don't have strong class heals and their defense is based on mobility and avoiding damage while DKs, templars and wardens are more of a sturdy classes that are hard to kill but are less mobile. That's a trade-off.
In the end it all goes to having counters. High mobility has counters. Cloak has counters. Wings... Well if building character as a melee is counted as counter then it has counters to, but no other defensive mechanic requires giving up all to counter one skill, that's the pain. There is nothing you can do as a ranged character to counter DK wings, you can't stop them from spaming it. We don't want nerf wings, we want at least one thing we can do to stop our arsenal from being completely useless. You can provide your own idea how to do it if you have any, but something needs to be done, some kind of bypass needs to be added, sorry that my opinion and yea that's just an opinion. We may disagree but let's keep it as it is - respectful Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
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Wow this is such a dejavu... Look, dude. You obviously miss my point. I'm not arguing which is more OP or which is more worth taking. I just wish people would stop comparing wings to cloak or saying "what about cloak" as a counter argument, because they are NOT comparable. They are powerful in different ways. Cloak being broken OP in general by letting the NB always have control and able to escape when losing while at the same time offering unrivaled dot suppresion. Wings being less multipurpose but extremely OP against magblades to the point where a duel is a complete meme. This is not the same thing, if you have any analytical capabilities.
At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you once more that you cannot keep hammering and pressuring an opponent while being in cloak? Cloak is OP, but it is in no way comparable to wings. Wings allow you to counter a ranged playstyle's damage completely, while being able to freely put pressure on the enemy with no risk of ever being counter attacked.
Same with cloak.Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.
Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.
maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.
If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.
I wish all the DK knuckleheads would learn to realize this. I'm sure you'd love it if all your dots were reflected at you and people wouls tell you to "just slot inhale bro". Please, just please stop.
At it again with the same drivel aren't we? Do I need to remind you you cannot reflect all melee attacks, dots, any ranged non projectile attacks, i.e. any beam attacks, any pet attacks, on target attacks like fury/curse, some projectiles like birb which are just excempt, projectiles with AoE components like valkyn. Basically everything from about 7.5 out of 10 classes.
But you can cloak them. And be invisible. And whilst AoEs break cloak you have to first find them, and they go through wings. And whilst the secondary explosions of POTL or curse will pop cloak, you can avoid them entirely, unlike wings.
Need I also mention it gives you a buff to counteroffense with the crit?
I'd trade something like wings which is very strong against a couple of classes for cloak which is very strong against nearly all of them and way more versatile for OW.
How do you NB dribblers even type with your keyboards so soaked in dribble. Astounding.
A stamblade with cloak vs magdk duel where both are equal skill can end both ways, even if stamblade is a stronger class. Because having cloak slotted doesnt mean you are 100% immune to all attacks. You will get hit and bursted eventually. A magdk with wings vs magblade will end in a win for the magdk or end in a boring stalemate. Even if the magdk is utter trash he can pull a stalemate because of how ridiculously hard wings counter the destro resto magblade.
Sustain isn't even an issue because the only magicka you will lose is from the offensive skills you cast. You have complete and utter control of the fight, because apart from casting wings you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You will receive absolutely minimal pressure.
- Swallow soul: reflected
- Assassins will: reflected
- Flame reach: reflected
- Cripple: reflected
- Impale: reflected
- Inferno staff (only one worth using on ranged magblade) light attacks: reflected
- Inferno staff heavy attacks: reflected
Only *** thing I can hit is force pulse (because swallow soul turned to ***) and soul harvest. Trust me, that will NEVER kill a magdk with any amount of brain cells. Other options such as sap essence and concealed weapon are complete and utter trash and not a viable slot on a ranged solo build. The only thing you will ever burst someone with on magblade is a good will combo. This is virtually impossible to pull off against a decent opponent.
And just so you know I play multiple classes outside of nb and nothing even comes close to how meme worthy a magblade vs magdk 1v1 is.
You are assuming I want wings to stay as is. I don't. Its neither fun to complete dab on a few classes and then be useless vs the rest of them.
You won't kill a semi competent DK with wings on a magblade/magsorc. That is evident, but my example was how you can use cloak to counter more, just without dmg return.
So acting like poor victim Magblade is tiring. A DK tries to hardcounter you. Cloak away. No one dies. No one loses. "But holding points" Fair point. But at the same time wings won't allow you to escape places, which is probs more important OW.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
TGO8694✭✭DK wings are a staple of the class. There are ways to get through wings, trust me. Just leave the skill alone. There are way more OP skills and setups that need to be adjusted. Like werewolves for instance....0 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's fine, it's all fine.
Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.
Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.
Streak removed? K then remove chains, nerf incap? K. To ground? Then make leap trash. Stop spamming clench? Why would I do that when my spammable is gonna get reflected anyway, might as well CC you that 2 times you don't get wings up (btw you could use it as well).
DKs already eat your mobility, especially zerglings spamming chains, but even in 1v1 you get constant talons root, fossilize CC + root, snares from doing damage. It already is a thing. It's aids, but not as aids as being unable to touch someone because they have a braindead skill to counter everything. Say cloak is the same, it at least has counters, *** ones but you do, and wings? jUsT LiGhT aTtAcK
You see? All complaining about ZoS not being able to do nothing but nerfs but you're the first one that just WANT this endless nerf cycle, all because you're unable to adapt or to accept that certain playstyles can be countered. In this regard, why would a melee class without mobility just hit "all of the damage" just because some players from the other class don't want to adapt or change approach when facing a DK?
And I'm telling you, you don't want wings? That's fine. Then take away streak, so that when DKs finally get to bring the fight into melee range, the sorc won't reset the fight making themselves uncounterable by a DK. You want to remove chains? As far as they used right now, it's like they're already removed. Leap is just used because is cheaper than meteor and has the gap closing factor. I personally used it as damaging ulti only when I know I'm facing *** who kill themselves spamming reflectable things.
And yes, you can touch a DK. Curse goes through wings. Crushing shock goes through wings. Rune Cage goes through wings. Ultis go through wings. Implosion goes through wings. Streak goes through wings. Mage's wrath goes through wings. And wings cost around 3k magicka, a DK in a fight won't be able to keep them constantly up in a fight if they also have to heal or put pressure on people. If your complain is about a DK turtling up and just spamming wings, then every single defensive mechanism has to be nerfed. Shield stacking, has to go. Streak has to go. BoL, has to go. Total Dark has to go. Warden trees, they have to go. Permafrost has to go. Cloak, has to go. Shade, has to go. If you really want to turtle up you can hard counter anything with any class and any setup. I bet a nice open world fist fight would be nice to play.
And if your complain is about zergling spamming it, just listen to yourself, why would you target what is clearly a tank, all by yourself when you have about a dozen people spamming one skill trying to kill who probably don't even have a single healing ability slotted because they're going into a zerg with potato builds and 14 healers.
Curse has damage with 6 seconds delay. Thats hardly spammable
Crushing shock has so low damage it isnt threat to any Dk.
Rune cage? As for damage? When you roll it or break it and damage isnt done to you
Streak. Skill with fatigue is good spammable to spent all your magicka
Mages Wrath - pointless to cast to full health - so its not spammable too
If i slot these 5 skills ( and i can maybe kill some novice DK,) it left me with half of my skillslots used.
Then i have to fight Nightblade and in order to bring him from invisibility, i need another set of skills.
You think damage of 4 projectiles is negated somehow bothers me? I have 3/4 of all my projectiles DODGED anyway. shimmering isnt problem because it has no reflect.
what wasnt right with wings were reflectation. It wasnt because it was only strong, but it had psychical effect. You cant afford to spam skills and getting them back in your face.
And be honest and say every mag dk can use wings more than 10times in row.Edited by Anyron on April 23, 2019 3:21AM1 -
Ysbriel✭✭✭✭✭I currently run a Magblade for battlegrounds and im actually against the DK wings nerf, people need to pay attention to what they are shooting at and learn to roll if the projectile is heading instead of going zerg mode. And that is the problem ZERGS, i run a Warden Tank on Cyrodiil and its funny when you see all ranged Magicka/Stamina enemies show up and the only thing left for them to throw at me is their shoes, suddenly you cast spell wall and you see them die and disperse. What’s the best way to fix? learn to play? hell no! nerf the skill!2 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭As a magblade, I can honestly say I'm very much looking forward to the wings change. At the moment it's too much of a hard counter. Yesterday I was in a battleground and the two enemy teams had 6 DK's among them, all of them using wings liberally. I'd guess about 80% of my attacks were reflected, and there is nothing on my end I could do about it.
The naive comment of "paying attention" doesn't work in chaotic melees with 12 players blasting one another with AOE etc.when every other player is a DK.
I truly am sorry for DK players who rely on this skill, but for the health of the PvP the change is better. It's still a very good defensive ability.
To turn the argument around, how would magicka DK players feel if Nightblades got a skill that reflects all abilities that do fire damage back?1 -
Matthros✭✭✭Over the past few days I played BGs with my Magblade and Sorc and the opponents included DKs just flapping Wings.
On my Magblade I timed hitting them with crushing shock to interrupt their flapping which gave me an opening to hit them with other reflectable attacks. When needed I hit them with a channeled attack and when close a soul harvest.
On my Sorc I used curse, pets, and channeled heavy attacks with an infused oblivion enchant then mages fury when in execute range. All non reflectable skills.
In these situations wings were not a problem at all because I adapted and our team won both of those matches.
Last night in capture the relic an opposing team had a strong Stamblade who kept himself cloaked and used draining shot and then the bow ultimate. To counter him on my Sorc I tried using lighting form since I didn’t have magelight slotted or didn’t have detect pots. It didn’t help and thinking about it now I should have just let him pickup the relic which would have exposed him.
How come I need to adapt to cloak when others don’t want to adapt to wings? I guess it doesn’t matter too much now since wings were changed to provide mitigation which I am still going to try.0 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Over the past few days I played BGs with my Magblade and Sorc and the opponents included DKs just flapping Wings.
On my Magblade I timed hitting them with crushing shock to interrupt their flapping which gave me an opening to hit them with other reflectable attacks. When needed I hit them with a channeled attack and when close a soul harvest.
On my Sorc I used curse, pets, and channeled heavy attacks with an infused oblivion enchant then mages fury when in execute range. All non reflectable skills.
In these situations wings were not a problem at all because I adapted and our team won both of those matches.
Last night in capture the relic an opposing team had a strong Stamblade who kept himself cloaked and used draining shot and then the bow ultimate. To counter him on my Sorc I tried using lighting form since I didn’t have magelight slotted or didn’t have detect pots. It didn’t help and thinking about it now I should have just let him pickup the relic which would have exposed him.
How come I need to adapt to cloak when others don’t want to adapt to wings? I guess it doesn’t matter too much now since wings were changed to provide mitigation which I am still going to try.
Rofl, what? You had to change your whole magblade build and go full wheelchair-mode on your sorc just to counter what were clearly average DK's and you wonder why wings were changed?
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)3 -
Matthros✭✭✭Over the past few days I played BGs with my Magblade and Sorc and the opponents included DKs just flapping Wings.
On my Magblade I timed hitting them with crushing shock to interrupt their flapping which gave me an opening to hit them with other reflectable attacks. When needed I hit them with a channeled attack and when close a soul harvest.
On my Sorc I used curse, pets, and channeled heavy attacks with an infused oblivion enchant then mages fury when in execute range. All non reflectable skills.
In these situations wings were not a problem at all because I adapted and our team won both of those matches.
Last night in capture the relic an opposing team had a strong Stamblade who kept himself cloaked and used draining shot and then the bow ultimate. To counter him on my Sorc I tried using lighting form since I didn’t have magelight slotted or didn’t have detect pots. It didn’t help and thinking about it now I should have just let him pickup the relic which would have exposed him.
How come I need to adapt to cloak when others don’t want to adapt to wings? I guess it doesn’t matter too much now since wings were changed to provide mitigation which I am still going to try.
Rofl, what? You had to change your whole magblade build and go full wheelchair-mode on your sorc just to counter what were clearly average DK's and you wonder why wings were changed?
I guess you didn’t get my point since you assumed I had to change my whole build and I had to “go full wheelchair-mode” which is a highly offensive statement to some. I am guessing you are someone who would refuse to adapt.
My point is that there are counters to wings. I also didn’t change a single skill on my bar or my build when facing a DK with their wings.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Over the past few days I played BGs with my Magblade and Sorc and the opponents included DKs just flapping Wings.
On my Magblade I timed hitting them with crushing shock to interrupt their flapping which gave me an opening to hit them with other reflectable attacks. When needed I hit them with a channeled attack and when close a soul harvest.
On my Sorc I used curse, pets, and channeled heavy attacks with an infused oblivion enchant then mages fury when in execute range. All non reflectable skills.
In these situations wings were not a problem at all because I adapted and our team won both of those matches.
Last night in capture the relic an opposing team had a strong Stamblade who kept himself cloaked and used draining shot and then the bow ultimate. To counter him on my Sorc I tried using lighting form since I didn’t have magelight slotted or didn’t have detect pots. It didn’t help and thinking about it now I should have just let him pickup the relic which would have exposed him.
How come I need to adapt to cloak when others don’t want to adapt to wings? I guess it doesn’t matter too much now since wings were changed to provide mitigation which I am still going to try.
Rofl, what? You had to change your whole magblade build and go full wheelchair-mode on your sorc just to counter what were clearly average DK's and you wonder why wings were changed?
Whenever you slot wings and a stamblade/stamplar comes to you, you are using a wheelchair.
Wings are useless 75% of the time and they got a nerf.
Cloak is useful 75% of the time. No nerf.
Withe the new wings, mageblade and magsorc will be the hard counter to DK as it used to be when wings didn't have the snare removal.
Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Aixy✭✭✭PTS Patch Notes v5.0.0
Reflective Scale:
Renamed this ability to Protective Scale.
Converted the reflect function into a 50% damage reduction from projectiles. This happened to all 3 versions of the ability.
Dragon Fire Scale (morph): This ability no longer increases damage of reflected attacks, since it can no longer reflect. Incoming projectiles will now cause you to launch a fiery orb at the attacker that deals Flame Damage. Effect can occur once every half second.
Reflective Plate: Renamed this ability to Protective Plate. No other changes were made to the ability’s functionality.
Yaaayyy i'm so happy, this is nice for my sorc !!
2 -
Cortimi✭✭✭✭✭maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.
If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.
This literally sums up the entire point that this is completely a "learn to play issue". The MAIN purpose Wings is used for is to
reflect Clench (minimal damage, it was the anti-CC we used it for) and Snipe (if you rely on Snipe de-sync to kill someone you are just bad) spam.
Having a counter against hard stuns from max range on a melee class (both Stam and Mag DKs need to be in close) is NOT overpowered.
Wings does NOTHING against:
Blockade of Elements
Birds
Concealed Weapon
Pets
Surprise Attack
Poison Injection
Shock Staff heavy attacks
Entropy
Force Pulse
Power Extraction
Fissure
Jabs
Shards
Haunting Curse
Mage's Wrath
Rune Cage
I would type more, but I don't feel like it, the point is made.
If you can't figure out the class and weapon skills that are at your disposal that can't be reflected, that's YOUR problem.
Xbox NA: Soviet Messiah
EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
EP: Melga - Orc StamDen (Dah Bear)
EP: Narileya - Nord StamPlar (Mad cuz Bad)
EP: Corvaera - Bosmer Orc StamSorc (RIP)
PS4 NA (Retired at CP835): Soviet-Messiah:
EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
DC: Melga gra-Antilae - StamDen
AD: Corvaera - Bosmer StamSorcCP is a crutch for people who can’t sustain and want to be "tanky" so they aren’t immediately punished for making mistakes.4 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.
If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.
This literally sums up the entire point that this is completely a "learn to play issue". The MAIN purpose Wings is used for is to
reflect Clench (minimal damage, it was the anti-CC we used it for) and Snipe (if you rely on Snipe de-sync to kill someone you are just bad) spam.
Having a counter against hard stuns from max range on a melee class (both Stam and Mag DKs need to be in close) is NOT overpowered.
Wings does NOTHING against:
Blockade of Elements
Birds
Concealed Weapon
Pets
Surprise Attack
Poison Injection
Shock Staff heavy attacks
Entropy
Force Pulse
Power Extraction
Fissure
Jabs
Shards
Haunting Curse
Mage's Wrath
Rune Cage
I would type more, but I don't feel like it, the point is made.
If you can't figure out the class and weapon skills that are at your disposal that can't be reflected, that's YOUR problem.
Entropy isn’t reflectable? I didn’t know that.
I think the main issue was magblades because they could be completely shut down at range.
I would have preferred wings to have kept reflections and instead buffed melee magblade. So wings forces a magblade to close into melee and fight it out, but on live that’s a death sentence for a magblade.
Looks like the devs went in the opposite direction; wings changed, no seminal melee magblade buff, and magblade has had most of their buffs spread out across multiple abilities forcing magblades to specialize their role.
I wouldn’t complain as a DK though. It looks like in exchange for the wings change they buffed DKs up the wazoo, and DKs were already a strong pvp class.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
brtomkin✭✭✭Wings was not simply nerfed - it is a class-defining skill that has had the primary function of the ability removed and replaced with a boring mitigation effect. It had already been nerfed for duration and reflect limit.
It is the latest casualty in the crusade to nerf the fun from unique class skills:Shalks stun, falcons swiftness duration, spear shards stun, artic blast damage, funnel health damage, refreshing path damage, Crystal frags stun, siphoning strikes resource return, repentence stamina for allies, breath of life, radiant destruction, inferno pbaoe, flame lash off-balance proc, surprise attack fracture, incap, etc. And that doesn't even touch on nerfed passives.
PS5 NA: Pickmans__Model, CP 2000+1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wings was not simply nerfed - it is a class-defining skill that has had the primary function of the ability removed and replaced with a boring mitigation effect. It had already been nerfed for duration and reflect limit.
It is the latest casualty in the crusade to nerf the fun from unique class skills:Shalks stun, falcons swiftness duration, spear shards stun, artic blast damage, funnel health damage, refreshing path damage, Crystal frags stun, siphoning strikes resource return, repentence stamina for allies, breath of life, radiant destruction, inferno pbaoe, flame lash off-balance proc, surprise attack fracture, incap, etc. And that doesn't even touch on nerfed passives.
That’s too bad, most of those were from before I started playing.
Class variety is an absolute must. I think stamina builds are already too similar, the worst thing that could happen to the game is for every class to play the same.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Is the 50% damage mitigation additive or multiplicative?
I mean say you run SnB and have all the passives. Battle roar’s 50% damage reduction out the gate. You block that’s 50% more. Then 15 %for blocking projectiles AND RANGED ATTACKS, 20% more damage you can block for using a SnB, then 50% mitigation with wings up. So how is the final damage calculated math whizzes?
Is this a nerf or a buff? considering it’s ALL projectiles and not just 4. Edited by JumpmanLane on May 19, 2019 10:24PM0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Is the 50% damage mitigation additive or multiplicative?
I mean say you run SnB and have all the passives. Battle roar’s 50% damage reduction out the gate. You block that’s 50% more. Then 15 %for blocking projectiles AND RANGED ATTACKS, 20% more damage you can block for using a SnB, then 50% mitigation with wings up. So how is the final damage calculated math whizzes?
Is this a nerf or a buff? considering it’s ALL projectiles and not just 4.
It being a buff or nerf is situational, the more projectiles hit you the more of a buff it is and vice versa, it is obviously a nerf in 1v1 but in 1v20 its gonna mitigate a lot more Damage, there is also to consider that debuffs and cc now go through. So it being a buff or nerf really depends on how many projectiles are gonna hit you in a short time.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Kinda funny post Silence Incapocalypse to go back and see all the magDKs telling magblades and magsorc to go melee (aka swap to stamblade or stam"sorc"). Many of the same would later complained that Silence Incap would force them to play stamina.....
Both mechanics warp things towards more stamina builds when Dawnbreaker of Smiting and Whirling Death Blades of OPness need no help luring people to stamina builds. New Wings might still be too op.1