Calls for DK Wings Nerf, Why?

Matthros · January 2019

My main is a DK and been enjoying playing it for years. Why all of sudden are multiple posts to nerf wings when they were never an issue and have been nerfed multiple times already? Did a lot of players switch to ranged builds and can’t kill us as easily?

oXI_Viper_IXo · January 2019

I was wondering the same thing. I'm mostly playing on a stamblade and have zero issues with wings. It's a class-defining skill and it's in a totally fine place right now. Not sure why so many are struggling with it.

Maybe it's all the PvE snipe-spammers getting a rude awakening when they wander into PvP for the event 🤔 beats me!

ccmedaddy · January 2019

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

NyassaV · January 2019

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

oXI_Viper_IXo · January 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

jcm2606 · January 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

cough Cloak, Shimmering Shield.

I get that the reflect is frustrating, and might be a tad overboard, but wings is not the only skill that completely shuts down ranged playstyles. It isn't even the best.

Wings can reflect 4 projectiles, Shimmering absorbs an amount of damage from 3. Wings protects from more. But what happens when the projectile cap is hit? You get maybe 1 more second worth of snare immunity. That's it. Shimmering? Half the cost of the skill is refunded, and you've got a few seconds of ultimate generation from Major Heroism. I'd take Shimmering Shield over wings in a heartbeat.

Skander · January 2019

Snare removal and wings immunity to ranged make DKs best in tanking even from templar.

Aedaryl · January 2019

Wings totaly hard counter ranged playstyle, and hard countering between 2 to 4 offensive global cooldown + the reflect by yourself using 1 GCD is overpowered.

Wings is now popular because it's bring snare removal and immobilisation + 2 to 4s immunity VS ranged playstyle.

You take a skill that's overpowered in 1 ranged player vs Dk situation and you make it popular with a new good effect and you obtain people complaining about a skill often used that totaly counter them. EZ to understand.

About "nerfing wings" there is few ways to balance the skill without being a true "nerf".

You can make wings only countering range projectile and not melee one, giving back to the skill it's range hate.

Or you can make it reflect like 3 projectile but this being per player and not being 4 projectile by anyone.

Wings is not supposed to be an I win button vs ranged playstyle, but it's supposed to be a tool that help the dk to not being pew pew to death from 40m while he try to goes melee.

TheYKcid · January 2019

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

IAVITNI · January 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

What's wrong with that? mDKs could just use impulse with a lightning staff. Clench deals frost and lightning damage as well. And Ice Comet is frost damage so they still have a magicka ultimate that they can use.

Although the proper response would have been if mag sorcs had an ability that negated all attacks made within 8 meters

GeneralSezme · January 2019

Its not just about “ranged builds” bowtards can get their face painted for all I care. But what about magblade, conceal cannot be compared to dk’s single target, and just about any other abillty mnb can use is reflectable.

Make wings like wardens shield, it would be a buff to it in my opinion and it will make it useful against all ranged damage instead of just a few abillities

Aedaryl · January 2019

IAVITNI wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

What's wrong with that? mDKs could just use impulse with a lightning staff. Clench deals frost and lightning damage as well. And Ice Comet is frost damage so they still have a magicka ultimate that they can use.

Although the proper response would have been if mag sorcs had an ability that negated all attacks made within 8 meters

You seems to not play at high skill level.

The problem is not if you can have one or two abilities not being reflected. The problem is about key skills from ranged play style being are hardcoutered and without theze key skills, you cannot make the kill because this is how the class is designed.

If you think you can kill a good player by using a dk with impulse/clench and ice comet only without fire damage or healing comming from it (embers, PL), then you have no idea about what's happen in competitive areas.

TheYKcid · January 2019

IAVITNI wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

What's wrong with that? mDKs could just use impulse with a lightning staff. Clench deals frost and lightning damage as well. And Ice Comet is frost damage so they still have a magicka ultimate that they can use.

Although the proper response would have been if mag sorcs had an ability that negated all attacks made within 8 meters

Right—they absolutely could. But their kill potential on anything but a Sorc would plummet. Clench and impulse have low tooltips and high costs, meteor not only hits for less than leap but is highly telegraphed and mitigated, you lose the main bulk of your damage which is pressure from Embers & breath (not to mention the burst heal from Embers), etc, etc.

Hell, at the end of the day you'd still have trouble killing Sorcs, the very thing you tried to adapt to, in spite and because of the numerous sacrifices made.

It's actually a really exportable analogy to the DKs who tell Sorcs to slot Force Pulse and solve all their woes—knowing full well that Force Pulse spam with no light attacks doesn't pose the slightest threat, especially when Frags—the Sorc's only burst tool, with no unreflectable substitute—isn't going to land in either case.

So you end up with a Sorc that upturned their entire build to fight DKs, still being unable to challenge DKs of comparable skill, while further gimping themselves against everyone else. Not the best deal you could make.

Steelshiv · January 2019

Flappy wings may need a Nerf because of a few players that abuse it. I've seen NEAR perfect uptime on wings. I've been in situations in PvP where I've fought dk's who use flappy wings every 6 seconds or after 4 projectiles routinely. It is beyond annoying that 100% of my damage is being reflected back at me. It doesn't allow me to do killing damage without a very long drawn out game of "whose resources run out first" which usually results in my enemy's friends showing up and rolling me.

I don't particularly care if it's nerfed or not. The problem is with the perfect wings uptime players and even then I just adapt to the situation I guess so it isn't really a problem. Just annoying.

Addendum: after my main class, sorcerer was nerfed into the ground after Murkmire I am very hesitant to call for the Nerf of anything since ZoS seems to do it with a SLEDGEHAMMER.

oXI_Viper_IXo · January 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

But, they don't. Wings don't reflect all ranged skills either, only projectiles. This is a false equivelance.

TheYKcid · January 2019

And my hypothetical Sorc skill wouldn't block all DK skills, either, just the flame damage ones.

The analogy holds.

NyassaV · January 2019

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Not everyone plays a magicka sorc. Magblade is where this issue shines

Either way it's not like getting into melee range stops the reflect effect so still unbalanced. If I could point blank people and not get screwed by wings that would be considerably more balanced. Or if you really want then we can have it reflect 2 projectiles per person.

oXI_Viper_IXo · January 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Not everyone plays a magicka sorc. Magblade is where this issue shines

Either way it's not like getting into melee range stops the reflect effect so still unbalanced. If I could point blank people and not get screwed by wings that would be considerably more balanced. Or if you really want then we can have it reflect 2 projectiles per person.

MagBlade has Lotus Fan, Concealed Weapon, Crippling Grasp, Swallow Soul, and access to Crushing Shock. Still not seeing the issue.

DeadlyRecluse · January 2019

I don't think there is a way to make wings feel useful in outnumbered or even just general large-scale PvP that doesn't make it feel overpowered in 1v1s.

The same is true of many class-defining defenses--if they are useful in open world play, they become obnoxious in a true 1v1 against certain builds.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

It's a nice ability, should never be mechanically changed.

I did get hit by a 22k wings once though. I did feel like that was a tad bit high for a very cheap ult... but hey, that was only once :P

jcm2606 · January 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

It's a nice ability, should never be mechanically changed.

I did get hit by a 22k wings once though. I did feel like that was a tad bit high for a very cheap ult... but hey, that was only once :P

Thinking of the wrong skill, dude. OP is talking about Reflective Scales.

ZarkingFrued · January 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

^^^^^:::Guy who snipes everyone from a mile away in stealth (which negates everything, including sight lol) gets mad that theres a way to stop him from playing hide n go snipe. I can assure you that snipe and ranged builds need a much harder nerf than dk wings lol.

Emma_Overload · January 2019

Wings ALWAYS needed to be nerfed. The reason you're hearing about it now is because DKs are EVERYWHERE.

Banana · January 2019

Non DK whingers. Need more nerf cloak threads

Conduit0 · January 2019

I'll admit wings needs a nerf when Nightblades admit that cloak needs an even bigger nerf.

JobooAGS · January 2019

Wings is fine, leave it alone.

Vildebill · January 2019

Because it's PvP event and all the scrubs that has no counter play for wings, cloak or whatever is gonna go to the forums and cry.

Sylphie · January 2019

Half the duration, double the projectiles reflected. This buffs it open world when you're trying to 1v5+ a bunch of snipers and nerfs it in duels, with wings being a more reactionary skill than a status buff you just apply on CD.

idk · January 2019

Sylphie wrote: »

Half the duration, double the projectiles reflected. This buffs it open world when you're trying to 1v5+ a bunch of snipers and nerfs it in duels, with wings being a more reactionary skill than a status buff you just apply on CD.

The duration is only a few seconds. It is impractical to half the duration.

The only reason someone would want to nerf DK wings (after the big nerfs they took early on) is because they are inconvenienced to consider doing something different. There are many ranged skills that are not reflected.

Sharee · January 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

And my hypothetical Sorc skill wouldn't block all DK skills, either, just the flame damage ones.

The analogy holds.

The problem with your analogy is that it assumes a mDK can do the same amount of damage/burst using non-flame attacks as a sorcerer can using non-projectile attacks(that means curse-shock-fury-meteor-cage), and that's not even remotely true.

NyassaV · January 2019

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Not everyone plays a magicka sorc. Magblade is where this issue shines

Either way it's not like getting into melee range stops the reflect effect so still unbalanced. If I could point blank people and not get screwed by wings that would be considerably more balanced. Or if you really want then we can have it reflect 2 projectiles per person.

MagBlade has Lotus Fan, Concealed Weapon, Crippling Grasp, Swallow Soul, and access to Crushing Shock. Still not seeing the issue.

Cripple and swallow get reflected. Melee is barely a viable playstyle especially after healing ward got screwed up. And gap closers are largely useless in most cases. TBH I don't know why swallow is a projectile but it is.

You obviously don't know enough about magblades so plz stop commenting on them.