Calls for DK Wings Nerf, Why?

Qbiken

Edziu wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

@biggda76 @TheYKcid

oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you

the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range

but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use

I mean if you want attack me and just stand while I spam light attacks then it's fine, and you know, you could like literally walk up to me since I don't have any mobility either (mNB)

As for how to deal with being damaged from ranged, ask you know, for example stamplar how go deal with it, so shield or heal. I mean you could even literally sprint wasting stam cause clench wouldn't cc you anyway and as soon as you get close enough to fossilize I dont see a problem

And my problem is mostly mNB so yea, melee ultimate makes me want to go melee so id you like being able to ignore wings in melee as for that idea

so ok, here I understand you as magnb as magnb is in much worse spot than sorc against dk with wing
and so here is great option from @TheYKcid to make wings reflect work only if you are casting prjectiles from longer range tha this melee range/10m/15m as how it could looks to make work your build properly if you are in this melee range eve forced by your own build while having most skills as projectiles even in your own build so not reflect is forcing you to go in melee range but just your build and reflect is just K.O. for someone like you

sorry if I flamed you before or something..but you know...99% people complaing loudly about wings are just magsorcs

Problem with that solution is that ones the DK is within range of a ranged build, they once again "hard-counter" their entire playstyle (speaking mainly from a magblade perspective)

I prefer the suggestion to let wings reflect 2-3 projectiles from each individual source for the duration. This makes wings good in outnumbered situations, but manageable to deal with in a 1v1 if you´re a ranged build facing a DK.

WuffyCerulei

A very much l2p issue here. Fellow sorcs, you don’t have to frag/clench/weave at DKs to do damage.

Defilted

Wings do wings need to be changed? Just play around them. If the DK is spamming them they are going to run out of mag real quick.




terrible grammar

Edziu

Qbiken wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

@biggda76 @TheYKcid

oh yeah, because light attacks do so much damage you need to heal/shield every light attacks reflected and dk will cc you at 30m+ range from wchich you can spam every your skill and streak away when dk will slowly walk to you

the only think I can agree and would be great to balance is as you @TheYKcid proposed to make wing work only at this 15m+ range so projectiles in melee could work again as this price to be close to melee range

but now what you try defend is that you are able to do all of this even in 40m range...how nonmobile melee class is supposed to deal with you when you can literally spam on them from 40m range while you also have streak to keep gap before this dk use gap close if even have it slotted to use

I mean if you want attack me and just stand while I spam light attacks then it's fine, and you know, you could like literally walk up to me since I don't have any mobility either (mNB)

As for how to deal with being damaged from ranged, ask you know, for example stamplar how go deal with it, so shield or heal. I mean you could even literally sprint wasting stam cause clench wouldn't cc you anyway and as soon as you get close enough to fossilize I dont see a problem

And my problem is mostly mNB so yea, melee ultimate makes me want to go melee so id you like being able to ignore wings in melee as for that idea

so ok, here I understand you as magnb as magnb is in much worse spot than sorc against dk with wing
and so here is great option from @TheYKcid to make wings reflect work only if you are casting prjectiles from longer range tha this melee range/10m/15m as how it could looks to make work your build properly if you are in this melee range eve forced by your own build while having most skills as projectiles even in your own build so not reflect is forcing you to go in melee range but just your build and reflect is just K.O. for someone like you

sorry if I flamed you before or something..but you know...99% people complaing loudly about wings are just magsorcs

Problem with that solution is that ones the DK is within range of a ranged build, they once again "hard-counter" their entire playstyle (speaking mainly from a magblade perspective)

I prefer the suggestion to let wings reflect 2-3 projectiles from each individual source for the duration. This makes wings good in outnumbered situations, but manageable to deal with in a 1v1 if you´re a ranged build facing a DK.

well similiar everything on range is harcounter to mdk without wings

if not wings magnb have tools to survive/get away from melee danger of magdk while able to burst down him in this melee range

at all magnb have some great options to build for melee but many in it tbh are still projectiles and this is only problem as for now for magnb which even in melee range cant do to much to mdk with wing up

KhajiitFelix

Steelshiv wrote: »

Flappy wings may need a Nerf because of a few players that abuse it. I've seen NEAR perfect uptime on wings. I've been in situations in PvP where I've fought dk's who use flappy wings every 6 seconds or after 4 projectiles routinely. It is beyond annoying that 100% of my damage is being reflected back at me. It doesn't allow me to do killing damage without a very long drawn out game of "whose resources run out first" which usually results in my enemy's friends showing up and rolling me.

I don't particularly care if it's nerfed or not. The problem is with the perfect wings uptime players and even then I just adapt to the situation I guess so it isn't really a problem. Just annoying.

Addendum: after my main class, sorcerer was nerfed into the ground after Murkmire I am very hesitant to call for the Nerf of anything since ZoS seems to do it with a SLEDGEHAMMER.

Perfect timings = skills.

KhajiitFelix

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Wings ALWAYS needed to be nerfed. The reason you're hearing about it now is because DKs are EVERYWHERE.

Replace wings with cloak and DKs with NBs and this sentence is perfect.

KhajiitFelix

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Weps

biggda76 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand.

Then why does wings continue to reflect abilities even when the DKs opponent moves into melee range?

You focused too much on the melee and not the final part of the quote.
To gain the upperhand. That's all about it when it comes to PvP, one player tries to gain the upperhand on another one.

We can agree that a skill created in order to reflect ranged attacks is least efficient in melee range, no?
Yes it can still reflect but out of 4 projectiles they can reflect, in a melee situation you'll probably just reflect one, thus making the skill extremely expensive and not worthy. That's where you're gonna gain the upperhand on a wing spamming DK in melee, with pressure.

This is so sad, you have to cast wings more often if target is being more offensive making himself take damage while you also do damage (1 wing every 4 skills does quite a lot of damage if someone is going on offense btw, irregardless of whether it's a smart choice to do so or not), Alexa play despacito

Again, it's all about timing and pressure like with every other class. DKs put pressure on you reflecting the *** you throw at them. You know, if DKs had an undodgeable, unblockable burst skill, the pressure would probably come from there paired with shielding or healing. But they don't have it so the pressure comes from their tankiness. That's how the entire class is built.
Take the wings out but then you have to give the DK an offensive tool to react to pressure that is not limited to 8 mt or that requires the target to be off balanced or immobilised.

Azurya

Matthros wrote: »

My main is a DK and been enjoying playing it for years. Why all of sudden are multiple posts to nerf wings when they were never an issue and have been nerfed multiple times already? Did a lot of players switch to ranged builds and can’t kill us as easily?

certainly not calling here for a nerf, I am fine with you guys, whatever skills you use!!!!
can´t remeber ever been killed by a DK, but yeah whatever^^

Savos_Saren

TheYKcid wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

@TheYKcid

Wings don't negate 100% of a Sorc's damage (nor lightning/magic damage).

Again- our Mage's Wrath, Haunting Curse, Encase, Rune prison, Daedric Mines, Familiar, Twilight, Summoned Atronauch damage, Lightning Form, Lightning Splash, and Bolt Escape, AND our passive execute goes through wings.

Not only that- it's ironic that you used the word "negate"... because a Sorc's NEGATE literally negates all of a mDK's abilities even for a few seconds after rolling out of it.

I don't know why people have to keep explaining that ranged damage dealers can't just pewpew without repercussions.

TheYKcid

Savos_Saren wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

@TheYKcid

I don't know why people have to keep explaining that ranged damage dealers can't just pewpew without repercussions.

@Savos_Saren

They don't, because I have personally stated multiple times that I WANT wings to be buffed at range and when outnumbered, and for ranged builds to have to put themselves at risk by closing into melee distance if they want to engage a DK fairly.

I urge you to read my previous posts on the matter—you'll see that I firmly believe pewpewing from range with no repercussions is an unhealthy playstyle. Heck, I've always criticised snipe-spammers at every opportunity I get. And anyone who knows me from PCNA BGs will vouch for the fact that I largely play my sorc as a brawler, no cheesy pet builds either.

Savos_Saren

TheYKcid wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

So you believe there should be no price to pay for playing a ranged-only build? Sorcs can use Haunting Curse, Crushing Shock, Mage's Wrath and they won't be reflected. 100% of damage negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

Can you imagine if Sorcs had a skill that negated 100% of Flame damage? mDKs would throw a fit. But then we could say:

"Hey, you chose to play a flame damage-only build; you gotta pay the price. Besides, Fossilize and Volatile do magicka damage, so saying 100% of your damage is negated is a bit of an exaggeration, no?"

You see how easy that would be? And also how nonsensical?

Certain classes tend to gravitate towards certain builds not because they're unaware of or reluctant to use alternatives, but because class design significantly shoehorns you into making certain optimised choices. You could make a magDK with no flame spells on their bar, but you don't cos that would just be stupid.

@TheYKcid

I don't know why people have to keep explaining that ranged damage dealers can't just pewpew without repercussions.

@Savos_Saren

They don't, because I have personally stated multiple times that I WANT wings to be buffed at range and when outnumbered, and for ranged builds to have to put themselves at risk by closing into melee distance if they want to engage a DK fairly.

Please read my previous posts on the matter—you'll see that I firmly believe pewpewing from range with no repercussions is an unhealthy playstyle (heck, I've always criticised snipe-spammers at nearly every opportunity I get). Anyone who knows me from PCNA BGs will vouch for the fact that I largely play my sorc as a brawler, no cheesy pet builds either.

@TheYKcid
Give it about 5 hours and we'll all be screaming "nerf Necromancers"

I think I've run into you in Vivec. I can say that I've shut down more Sorcs on my Argonian MagDen than on my mDK. Shimmering Shield absolutely harasses Sorcs. The worse trouble I've run into while on my Sorc is those damn sneaky MagBlades. You have to drop mines over their shadow image in hopes of catching them.

WillhelmBlack

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

I was wondering the same thing. I'm mostly playing on a stamblade and have zero issues with wings. It's a class-defining skill and it's in a totally fine place right now. Not sure why so many are struggling with it.

Maybe it's all the PvE snipe-spammers getting a rude awakening when they wander into PvP for the event 🤔 beats me!

It's exactly this.

ezio45

i dont want a wings nerf i want a heavy armor nerf

thankyourat

A viable option to help magblades fight wings without nerfing them would be to flat out buff melee magblade. This would give magblades the option to build to not be countered by wings. Currently the magblade melee options are bad and non-sustainable. Lotus fan is too expensive and does little damage same with sap essence. Concealed also doesn't do as much damage as it should.

To assist ranged magblade cripple needs to be unflectable. If magblade is going to negate all your damage you should at least be able to root the do too keep him front getting into melee. If you give magblade some counter options to wings mag dk can keep their wings and magblades will now at least be able to fight back against wings. Another option is to take away the reflect of wings and turn it into a gap closer which gets rid of the need to have wings, but I don't think that option would be very popular.

As it stands right now wings make playing magblade unenjoyable because of the recent rise in popularity of dk and wings. I hear the argument that wings don't scale well 1vX. in this current patch that's true for every ability nothing is good 1vX. On the opposite side though it's completely toxic if you are a magblade and you are fighting multiple players with reflect. You will do no damage until you die.

Weps

biggda76 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

That's fine, it's all fine.

Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.

Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.

Streak removed? K then remove chains, nerf incap? K. To ground? Then make leap trash. Stop spamming clench? Why would I do that when my spammable is gonna get reflected anyway, might as well CC you that 2 times you don't get wings up (btw you could use it as well).

DKs already eat your mobility, especially zerglings spamming chains, but even in 1v1 you get constant talons root, fossilize CC + root, snares from doing damage. It already is a thing. It's aids, but not as aids as being unable to touch someone because they have a braindead skill to counter everything. Say cloak is the same, it at least has counters, *** ones but you do, and wings? jUsT LiGhT aTtAcK

You see? All complaining about ZoS not being able to do nothing but nerfs but you're the first one that just WANT this endless nerf cycle, all because you're unable to adapt or to accept that certain playstyles can be countered. In this regard, why would a melee class without mobility just hit "all of the damage" just because some players from the other class don't want to adapt or change approach when facing a DK?
And I'm telling you, you don't want wings? That's fine. Then take away streak, so that when DKs finally get to bring the fight into melee range, the sorc won't reset the fight making themselves uncounterable by a DK. You want to remove chains? As far as they used right now, it's like they're already removed. Leap is just used because is cheaper than meteor and has the gap closing factor. I personally used it as damaging ulti only when I know I'm facing *** who kill themselves spamming reflectable things.

And yes, you can touch a DK. Curse goes through wings. Crushing shock goes through wings. Rune Cage goes through wings. Ultis go through wings. Implosion goes through wings. Streak goes through wings. Mage's wrath goes through wings. And wings cost around 3k magicka, a DK in a fight won't be able to keep them constantly up in a fight if they also have to heal or put pressure on people. If your complain is about a DK turtling up and just spamming wings, then every single defensive mechanism has to be nerfed. Shield stacking, has to go. Streak has to go. BoL, has to go. Total Dark has to go. Warden trees, they have to go. Permafrost has to go. Cloak, has to go. Shade, has to go. If you really want to turtle up you can hard counter anything with any class and any setup. I bet a nice open world fist fight would be nice to play.
And if your complain is about zergling spamming it, just listen to yourself, why would you target what is clearly a tank, all by yourself when you have about a dozen people spamming one skill trying to kill who probably don't even have a single healing ability slotted because they're going into a zerg with potato builds and 14 healers.

I dare you to come PTS and get me to 50% HP on mNB vs my sDK or mDK doesn't matter, I'd love to see you adapt

You know streak mobility could be countered by chains :XD: like if someone is escaping you literally have the tool to get closer even though I just let people *** off and go away instead of tryharding

Also you're a spastic if you think nerfing wings is only justice is to nerf defensive mechanics everywhere. None of them is uncountable like that. Hell you even have shield breaker and Oblivion damage if shields hurt you so much. Similar with all other defensive mechanics, unblockable cc's, gap closers, speed, snares, aoes, defiles.

If you consider wings on same level I beg you, come to PTS/level up PC EU account and we'll see how well do you adapt

Well, thank ***. I don't have PTS, since I'm on console, and I usually just play magblade randomly to get crystals.
If I was better and I had a PC why not, in a specific duel against a mDK you have plenty of solutions to get around wings.

Yes, streak mobility is limited by chains. That's good. Too bad chain grants people CC immunity. So one streak, one chain, two streaks? Rip chains. O maybe you meant the one teleporting you to the sorc? That's a brilliant idea. Can you picture the scenario? The sorc streaks. The DK chains. The sorc streak. The Dk chains. This is not countering anything, I don't wanna follow you, I wanna force you to come and play on my ground.
And why am I supposed to say "*** off that sorc, let them go away". Then why you come crying to nerf wings? Can't you also say "Well, *** off that DK, let's move to other things". You can't kill them from range, neither they can. So what's the issue? A duel? Why the heck are you going into a duel against a DK with reflectable skills on your bars?

And you completely missed the point about defensive mechanism...but yeah I'm the spastic one, so the functional illiterate said. I said that a DK facing a lot of pressure wont' be able to spam it, heal and also CC people and get offensive since it's an expensive skill. All I said is that the issue is people turtling up behind wings, that goes for every single other defense mechanism. You can't kill a DK with wings and you can't kill people that are just spamming their main defensive skill. So why do DK's wing need to go while all other defensive mechanism can stay? Because they can also damage you? What about Total Dark? What about Shimmering Shield? It doesn't damage you but can fill a Warden's ulti pretty quick and then I want to see how you deal with a warden going offensive with permafrost and everything else. And every class has skill that cannot be reflected by wings. Go with Swallow Soul, go with Crushing Shock. Time your fear, bow proc, execute when the wings expire, I don't know. You're the one who uses a magblade more often, I'm pretty sure you can find viable solutions around wings.
From my point of view you're complaining because you wish you could kill a DK from 20mt without any thought process behind it, just repeating the midless combo you can do few other melee classes. And that's a pretty biased argument, if that's the case.

You know why I won't let a DK go? Because he won't *** let me to do so, will just use leap to get close and since then have fun moving away

Yes that's how a gap closer work, someone runs away, you gap close and endless cycle unless someone stops

How do I get around wings huh? You say there are plenty of options to get around. Unslot cripple, merciless, swallow, clench? Okay that leaves me with defensive skills and ultimate

Oh btw, swallow soul gets reflected )))))

As you can see people don't cry about these things cause they have counter unlike wings, you can kill trash in duel but if someone is not brain dead then no, you can't kill him on mNB if they have wings and no, I'd love to be able to come close to a DK since I use soul harvest (melee ultimate) but why I won't is because I won't move away anymore and he'll just kill me cause I can't touch him

Saying time your burst to prepare for wings are up, well why won't you reapply wings a second before they go away?

And here's the key, YOU DON'T NEED TO SPAM IT. It reflects couple projectiles so you could technically let it off for 2s but I guess you consider those 2s open window when i should 1 shot you. Yeah well if I would do that 1 shot then you're just a trash player what can I say

Your opinion is more biased since I actually play DK as well and realise how broken wings are against mNB :XD:

I just have no words for everything here anymore really, what can you expect from PS4 anyway lmoa af

Oh please. Seriously. A DK has just blew off an ulti, which is the major source of sustain and burst to gap close you and you cannot do anything about it? And you cannot elaborate a strategy to either move away or kill it? A gap close that you can easily block to completely negate the damage and the effect? An ulti that has a visual Q that is as big as an entire keep? What are you even talking about? What's the basis of the argument?
Like, you find yourself melee and can't escape a DK because they're going to gap close you with the ulti they use as finisher? Well, they now they cannot kill you. Like ever. Unless you just decide to eat all their whip damage unshielded.

The issue was not about what's the use of a gap closer, the issue is about why you would use a gap closer on a streak spamming sorc. Same goes for a nightblade. Why would I use a gap closer on a nightblade that can easily shade away or just cloak away. Oh yes, I can take that NB out of cloak simply spending 4k magicka for Inner Light or just spamming 3k magicka for scale armour. Seems legit. Just how much sustain do you think a DK has?

Oh my bad about that, bad wording. I meant why do you go against a DK in a duel with reflectable spammables? You can reset the fight all you want. You can counter CC a DK, a thing that very few classes can do. You can time the fight at your pace, decide whether you can or not go melee and finish the deal ( contrary to what a templar can do but yeah, let's not talk about how they can counter pretty much everything a DK does, not only the projectiles ). You're probably the only class that can actually pace a fight against a DK and you complain. I'm not saying it's easy, can be very annoying. But it's not like you're supposed to kill everything playing the same way with the same mental approach. I wish I could just put a couple of DoTs on a templar, whip and just leap execute like with other melees class but no, I cannot do it. I have to work my ass off to kill magplars that know their stuff. That's balance, that's counterplay.

Oh btw, force pulse / crushing shock does not get reflected. Concealed weapon does not get reflected. Pretty much every monster set in the game doesn't get reflected. And I told you that you can use Merciless, simply you cannot pretend to just weave on a DK and then proc your spectral bow and walk out of the field brushing your shoulders. Different class, different players, different approach.

As I can see what? Wake up buddies, the only issue is that the event multiplied the QQs threads about nerfing DKs wings, you must have been ibernated to miss all the "Nerf cloak", "Nerf this", "Nerf that" posts. And you must've missed the point where Wings used to endlessly reflect damn meteors. Now we're down to 4 projectiles out of 6 seconds. Projectiles, not skills. So they have been nerfed already.

And again, why would you openly approach a DK melee? I said time your burst and all you came up with is this sad excuse about how you wouldn't move anymore. You have shade. You have Major expedition coming out of your ass. You have a CC that can be casted while stealthing and that is broken and you cannot figure a way to approach a DK melee to line up your burst and finish the job? And again, you stay ranged then. You can't kill the DK, they can't kill you. Let them *** off and so do you. Oh yeah, but wait for the leap used as gap closer I wanna die

Casting a skill one second before it expires IT IS SPAMMING! Why would I keep casting a skill if I don't need it? You're thinking about the 1v1 scenario, I'm thinking about the 1vX scenario, where I have to deal with you and other 10 zerglings with each one and every one of them casting one skill. Or in a Bg scenario, where I have to keep a flag and I have 3/4 of the other team coming for it. In that case 4 projectiles go away in one second, easily so yeah I need to spam it. I need to keep it up otherwise I'm gonna die because I have very few other ways to answer that pressure. Unlike other classes who can simply reset the fight and / or turn offensive immediately and burst people. Dks don't have neither. They have tankiness and that's the way they apply pressure to multiple targets. And for 1v1 scenario, you need more lateral thinking and start to consider to change the approach / setup of your build if you know you're about to deal with a DK.

That's fine, my opinion is biased because I didn't realise how broken are wings against trash players.
My Bad.

NyassaV

Weps wrote: »

That's fine, it's all fine.

Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.

Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.

I have absolutely no issue with playing a ranged magblade in melee range. That was my build and playstyle and I was weird for it since most people would kite and use DOTs but I got in your face. Since summerset ZOS has rendered such a playstyle non-viable so if I wish to preform well at all I have to be that ranged kiting person and if I go into melee range then I die. So I'd love to fight you in melee range but ZOS doesn't want me to thus we have to assume we need to balance the class around what they currently are and not what they could/should/have been.

NyassaV

CaliMade wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Can confirm there is absolutely no class in this game that gets tta 100% of their damage negated by wings


best self healing LMAO

1 heal debuff boi

Magblade's damage is all projectiles. If you play that style of build then you have Valkyn and Entropy but the damage from Entropy is negligible

Yes they currently have the best self healing. If you think they don't then imagine how everyone else feels (I am not including Shrooms and BoL when I say this since those are burst heals not only used for the user).

1 heal debuff hurts everyone boi

NyassaV

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Wings were overperforming at release(reflecting everything for 4 seconds).
The devs re-evaluated them, and made them only reflect 4 projectiles.

The arguments being used today asking for wing nerfs are the same arguments that have been used 4 years ago.
Devs already considered those arguments, and deemed the 4-projectiles nerf sufficient.
You will need some new ones if you want to convince them wings need another nerf.

But that will be problematic, since there is nothing new about wings that has changed in the last 4 years which would warrant a re-evaluation of the ability. So, good luck.

How do you kill a flappy DK on a magsorc ?

Wings are so unbalanced that the ability is banned from all dueling tournement, the place (1v1) where wings is OP vs some matchup.

People are not asking to straight nerf the ability, but people want it to be less a hardcounter in 1v1 and more usefull in 1vX.

Petsorc is banned from every tournament too, just saying. It's funny to see how most sorcs who are complaining are playing hardcore cheese pet builds who are used to never die and just roflstomp everything.

Basically this. Most pet sorcs actually go through wings because of this build so they should be complaining less than magblade but their main burst is still negated so I understand the frustration at least.

NyassaV

TheYKcid wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand.

Then why does wings continue to reflect abilities even when the DKs opponent moves into melee range?

THis is actually a good idea. I've frequently said we should make wings reflect 2-ish projectiles PER PERSON as a way to keep it useful against being zerged and such but that one isn't a bad idea either. However I'd like to see melee ranged as defined by 8-10 meters. Most abilities reach 6 at least so shouldn't be much of a stretch

ak_pvp

NyassaV wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Because the forums are full of Sorc and NB mains who just want to pew pew at range with no repercussions whatsoever.

Once they're done with this campaign to get wings nerfed, sorc mains will go back to trying to get cloak nerfed and NB mains will go back to trying to get every single defense mechanism besides cloak nerfed. They just happened to find a common cause this time.

maybe cuz no one likes having 100% of their damage negated when that class also had the best self healing, CC, and very good single target pressure.

If wing's didn't negate everything I'm sure people would care less but it basically makes fighting a DK a waste of time as a ranged build. Like sorry there is just no damn point, not only can they out-heal you but they will also take little to no damage.

Same with cloak.
Maybe cuz no one likes having 100% (but, you know, actually 100% cause cloak works with all classes and more abilities, all but AoE as opposed to just a limited subsection of ranged attacks) vs a class that then becomes untargettable, invisible and ignores all dot damage whilst having the best sustain, good damage, and CC equally as good as DKs.

Cathexis

Wings used to be less bad when you could reflect reflects, but now they create a barrier to using any ranged projectile ability.

I am in favour restoring double+ reflect and making functional changes to wings, not because I think wings need to be nerfed so much, as it just needs to have the PvP skill bottleneck removed.

It's funny I remember suggesting this like a year ago to alarming backlash.

biggda76

Weps wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

biggda76 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

That's fine, it's all fine.

Let's say I'm gonna be OK with all the nerf DK topics when Sorc will get Curse or streak removed.
When Nightblades will get Incap nerfed in the ground.
When Clench will be not be spammed by all the magicka classes around you and on and on.

Like it or not, playing in PvP means having to deal with counterplay.
MagDK is a melee class and is built around the whole concept of forcing you to play melee where they can gain the upperhand. Before calling for nerfs to the core of a playstyle, think about what would you like to give away in the long run in order to make this viable. Because you take out DKs' wings, then DK will come for your mobility or your defenses and it's the never ending cycle of nerf this to nerf that.

Streak removed? K then remove chains, nerf incap? K. To ground? Then make leap trash. Stop spamming clench? Why would I do that when my spammable is gonna get reflected anyway, might as well CC you that 2 times you don't get wings up (btw you could use it as well).

DKs already eat your mobility, especially zerglings spamming chains, but even in 1v1 you get constant talons root, fossilize CC + root, snares from doing damage. It already is a thing. It's aids, but not as aids as being unable to touch someone because they have a braindead skill to counter everything. Say cloak is the same, it at least has counters, *** ones but you do, and wings? jUsT LiGhT aTtAcK

You see? All complaining about ZoS not being able to do nothing but nerfs but you're the first one that just WANT this endless nerf cycle, all because you're unable to adapt or to accept that certain playstyles can be countered. In this regard, why would a melee class without mobility just hit "all of the damage" just because some players from the other class don't want to adapt or change approach when facing a DK?
And I'm telling you, you don't want wings? That's fine. Then take away streak, so that when DKs finally get to bring the fight into melee range, the sorc won't reset the fight making themselves uncounterable by a DK. You want to remove chains? As far as they used right now, it's like they're already removed. Leap is just used because is cheaper than meteor and has the gap closing factor. I personally used it as damaging ulti only when I know I'm facing *** who kill themselves spamming reflectable things.

And yes, you can touch a DK. Curse goes through wings. Crushing shock goes through wings. Rune Cage goes through wings. Ultis go through wings. Implosion goes through wings. Streak goes through wings. Mage's wrath goes through wings. And wings cost around 3k magicka, a DK in a fight won't be able to keep them constantly up in a fight if they also have to heal or put pressure on people. If your complain is about a DK turtling up and just spamming wings, then every single defensive mechanism has to be nerfed. Shield stacking, has to go. Streak has to go. BoL, has to go. Total Dark has to go. Warden trees, they have to go. Permafrost has to go. Cloak, has to go. Shade, has to go. If you really want to turtle up you can hard counter anything with any class and any setup. I bet a nice open world fist fight would be nice to play.
And if your complain is about zergling spamming it, just listen to yourself, why would you target what is clearly a tank, all by yourself when you have about a dozen people spamming one skill trying to kill who probably don't even have a single healing ability slotted because they're going into a zerg with potato builds and 14 healers.

I dare you to come PTS and get me to 50% HP on mNB vs my sDK or mDK doesn't matter, I'd love to see you adapt

You know streak mobility could be countered by chains :XD: like if someone is escaping you literally have the tool to get closer even though I just let people *** off and go away instead of tryharding

Also you're a spastic if you think nerfing wings is only justice is to nerf defensive mechanics everywhere. None of them is uncountable like that. Hell you even have shield breaker and Oblivion damage if shields hurt you so much. Similar with all other defensive mechanics, unblockable cc's, gap closers, speed, snares, aoes, defiles.

If you consider wings on same level I beg you, come to PTS/level up PC EU account and we'll see how well do you adapt

Well, thank ***. I don't have PTS, since I'm on console, and I usually just play magblade randomly to get crystals.
If I was better and I had a PC why not, in a specific duel against a mDK you have plenty of solutions to get around wings.

Yes, streak mobility is limited by chains. That's good. Too bad chain grants people CC immunity. So one streak, one chain, two streaks? Rip chains. O maybe you meant the one teleporting you to the sorc? That's a brilliant idea. Can you picture the scenario? The sorc streaks. The DK chains. The sorc streak. The Dk chains. This is not countering anything, I don't wanna follow you, I wanna force you to come and play on my ground.
And why am I supposed to say "*** off that sorc, let them go away". Then why you come crying to nerf wings? Can't you also say "Well, *** off that DK, let's move to other things". You can't kill them from range, neither they can. So what's the issue? A duel? Why the heck are you going into a duel against a DK with reflectable skills on your bars?

And you completely missed the point about defensive mechanism...but yeah I'm the spastic one, so the functional illiterate said. I said that a DK facing a lot of pressure wont' be able to spam it, heal and also CC people and get offensive since it's an expensive skill. All I said is that the issue is people turtling up behind wings, that goes for every single other defense mechanism. You can't kill a DK with wings and you can't kill people that are just spamming their main defensive skill. So why do DK's wing need to go while all other defensive mechanism can stay? Because they can also damage you? What about Total Dark? What about Shimmering Shield? It doesn't damage you but can fill a Warden's ulti pretty quick and then I want to see how you deal with a warden going offensive with permafrost and everything else. And every class has skill that cannot be reflected by wings. Go with Swallow Soul, go with Crushing Shock. Time your fear, bow proc, execute when the wings expire, I don't know. You're the one who uses a magblade more often, I'm pretty sure you can find viable solutions around wings.
From my point of view you're complaining because you wish you could kill a DK from 20mt without any thought process behind it, just repeating the midless combo you can do few other melee classes. And that's a pretty biased argument, if that's the case.

You know why I won't let a DK go? Because he won't *** let me to do so, will just use leap to get close and since then have fun moving away

Yes that's how a gap closer work, someone runs away, you gap close and endless cycle unless someone stops

How do I get around wings huh? You say there are plenty of options to get around. Unslot cripple, merciless, swallow, clench? Okay that leaves me with defensive skills and ultimate

Oh btw, swallow soul gets reflected )))))

As you can see people don't cry about these things cause they have counter unlike wings, you can kill trash in duel but if someone is not brain dead then no, you can't kill him on mNB if they have wings and no, I'd love to be able to come close to a DK since I use soul harvest (melee ultimate) but why I won't is because I won't move away anymore and he'll just kill me cause I can't touch him

Saying time your burst to prepare for wings are up, well why won't you reapply wings a second before they go away?

And here's the key, YOU DON'T NEED TO SPAM IT. It reflects couple projectiles so you could technically let it off for 2s but I guess you consider those 2s open window when i should 1 shot you. Yeah well if I would do that 1 shot then you're just a trash player what can I say

Your opinion is more biased since I actually play DK as well and realise how broken wings are against mNB :XD:

I just have no words for everything here anymore really, what can you expect from PS4 anyway lmoa af

Oh please. Seriously. A DK has just blew off an ulti, which is the major source of sustain and burst to gap close you and you cannot do anything about it? And you cannot elaborate a strategy to either move away or kill it? A gap close that you can easily block to completely negate the damage and the effect? An ulti that has a visual Q that is as big as an entire keep? What are you even talking about? What's the basis of the argument?
Like, you find yourself melee and can't escape a DK because they're going to gap close you with the ulti they use as finisher? Well, they now they cannot kill you. Like ever. Unless you just decide to eat all their whip damage unshielded.

The issue was not about what's the use of a gap closer, the issue is about why you would use a gap closer on a streak spamming sorc. Same goes for a nightblade. Why would I use a gap closer on a nightblade that can easily shade away or just cloak away. Oh yes, I can take that NB out of cloak simply spending 4k magicka for Inner Light or just spamming 3k magicka for scale armour. Seems legit. Just how much sustain do you think a DK has?

Oh my bad about that, bad wording. I meant why do you go against a DK in a duel with reflectable spammables? You can reset the fight all you want. You can counter CC a DK, a thing that very few classes can do. You can time the fight at your pace, decide whether you can or not go melee and finish the deal ( contrary to what a templar can do but yeah, let's not talk about how they can counter pretty much everything a DK does, not only the projectiles ). You're probably the only class that can actually pace a fight against a DK and you complain. I'm not saying it's easy, can be very annoying. But it's not like you're supposed to kill everything playing the same way with the same mental approach. I wish I could just put a couple of DoTs on a templar, whip and just leap execute like with other melees class but no, I cannot do it. I have to work my ass off to kill magplars that know their stuff. That's balance, that's counterplay.

Oh btw, force pulse / crushing shock does not get reflected. Concealed weapon does not get reflected. Pretty much every monster set in the game doesn't get reflected. And I told you that you can use Merciless, simply you cannot pretend to just weave on a DK and then proc your spectral bow and walk out of the field brushing your shoulders. Different class, different players, different approach.

As I can see what? Wake up buddies, the only issue is that the event multiplied the QQs threads about nerfing DKs wings, you must have been ibernated to miss all the "Nerf cloak", "Nerf this", "Nerf that" posts. And you must've missed the point where Wings used to endlessly reflect damn meteors. Now we're down to 4 projectiles out of 6 seconds. Projectiles, not skills. So they have been nerfed already.

And again, why would you openly approach a DK melee? I said time your burst and all you came up with is this sad excuse about how you wouldn't move anymore. You have shade. You have Major expedition coming out of your ass. You have a CC that can be casted while stealthing and that is broken and you cannot figure a way to approach a DK melee to line up your burst and finish the job? And again, you stay ranged then. You can't kill the DK, they can't kill you. Let them *** off and so do you. Oh yeah, but wait for the leap used as gap closer I wanna die

Casting a skill one second before it expires IT IS SPAMMING! Why would I keep casting a skill if I don't need it? You're thinking about the 1v1 scenario, I'm thinking about the 1vX scenario, where I have to deal with you and other 10 zerglings with each one and every one of them casting one skill. Or in a Bg scenario, where I have to keep a flag and I have 3/4 of the other team coming for it. In that case 4 projectiles go away in one second, easily so yeah I need to spam it. I need to keep it up otherwise I'm gonna die because I have very few other ways to answer that pressure. Unlike other classes who can simply reset the fight and / or turn offensive immediately and burst people. Dks don't have neither. They have tankiness and that's the way they apply pressure to multiple targets. And for 1v1 scenario, you need more lateral thinking and start to consider to change the approach / setup of your build if you know you're about to deal with a DK.

That's fine, my opinion is biased because I didn't realise how broken are wings against trash players.
My Bad.

Are you like actually brain dead or what, I've *** explained why you can't do 'just kill it', if you literally leap to do a gapclose then how the *** do I move out while being snared af and fossilized, I'm gonna port to shade and you're gonna walk up to me because of how *** snared I am. You neither can kite nor reset a fight on magblade and you should know that already but wouldn't be suprised if you don't, i mean nb op buff wings :XD:

I don't give a *** nerf cloak all you want.

Yes lemme slot abilities that are trash and I don't have spot for already because 1 class can counter everything other has - that's balance btw - yeah okay I'll do that. And how the *** do you want me to kill someone with that force pulse? Go try to kill not cp 200 trash spamming whip and see how that works out will ya

Yes guess why you can't anymore reflect meteors. BECAUSE IT WAS TOO *** STRONG like omg what a ***

Shade? Yeah let me just get snared to death. Major expedition my ass you reflect it you ape. Yes I hope you commit air not reach lungs because that's a *** example of why I won't go away from DK, you're gonna get tryharded so the DK will leap as gapcloser cause he knows you can't kill him anyway, if he doesn't then there is no *** problem simple as that

Well apparently you seem to think that without wings you'll get one shot so I guess you do need to keep it up aka spam it. fat XD


Yes wings op against trash players, pls come PTS I'll get you account and see how *** player I am vs the I counter wings with timing

biggda76

I understand wings don't feel powerful when you're getting chased by 2 magsorcs but what you're saying is just disability. @Qbiken 's idea how it works reflects per person would be already better

Haashhtaag

Wings should function similar to shimmering shield, reflect the damage, but if a ranged CC hits and you don’t have immunity you should still get CC’d.

RebornV3x

Because some people just wanna watch the world burn DK wings are fine where it is right now and does not need a nerf but thanks to Zenimax caving in to a vocal minority of crybabies on the forum in the past they think they own the place now its a shame really.
its the same people that will cry and moan until everything is nerfed to the point were all naked and fist fighting each other.

biggda76

RebornV3x wrote: »

Because some people just wanna watch the world burn DK wings are fine where it is right now and does not need a nerf but thanks to Zenimax caving in to a vocal minority of crybabies on the forum in the past they think they own the place now its a shame really.
its the same people that will cry and moan until everything is nerfed to the point were all naked and fist fighting each other.

When you think there you won't see any more apes today

Conduit0

I think I know whats really going on. For a long time DK's were a subpar open world pvp class and aside from a small population of grizzled veterans most DK's were potatoes and practically free kills for everyone. Thanks to a series of much needed buffs DK's have become competitive again so the population of competent DK's is growing, which has lead us to where we are now with people being angry that DK's aren't the guaranteed AP that they once were.

biggda76

Conduit0 wrote: »

I think I know whats really going on. For a long time DK's were a subpar open world pvp class and aside from a small population of grizzled veterans most DK's were potatoes and practically free kills for everyone. Thanks to a series of much needed buffs DK's have become competitive again so the population of competent DK's is growing, which has lead us to where we are now with people being angry that DK's aren't the guaranteed AP that they once were.

Dude that's so not true, I love playing my sDK and I love it strong but the fact that you can negate all damage, your skill being actually way stronger than sorc's negate ult in what it does (in 1v1 scenario obv) is just ridiculous and shouldn't be a thing

eso_nya

cryhard mentality.
step 1: die in pvp
step 2: go to the forums and cry for nerfs
step 3: when nothing happens the next day, use the thing
<wait for 6 month>
step 4: the thing gets nerfed
step 5: go the forums and cry that the nerf was uncalled for and is totally unfair. claim u used the thing since early alpha on your one and only main.
repeat with step 1.