Quarterly reminder to update the old Arena weapons.

TheYKcid

Just a friendly reminder to update this content as we move toward another PTS cycle,

The old Arena weapons (vMA, vDSA, vAS) have been at a power deficit ever since Summerset launched. This was because Summerset brought a change that made all 2-handed weapons confer 2 set bonuses—allowing anyone to run 5/5/2 regardless of weapon choice. Arena weapons, however, continued to only provide 1 set bonus—despite taking up 2 slots—and thus using them incurs a stat loss compared to a conventional setup.

The impact is small for backbarred Arena weapons, but a very substantial disadvantage for those that are frontbarred (ie. Asylum & Master destro staves, Asylum & vMA 2H, etc.) as you need all the stats you can get on your frontbar, for good damage tooltips.

The solution is simple: Give all Arena weapons a 1pc stat bonus. This is nothing outlandish—vBRP weapons were given this exact format upon release, showing that ZOS understand the underlying principle. Even further back in time, Monster sets—which also occupy 2 slots—have always provided a 1pc stat bonus + a 2pc special effect bonus. Adjusting the old vet Arena weapons as such would merely be normalising them with the other equipment ingame.

For more in-depth analyses of this issue, feel free to refer to the old threads I've been writing since the Summerset PTS:
"Arena" weapons desperately need a 1pc stat bonus — a detailed explanation
ZOS — PLEASE do not neglect the older Arena weapons in Murkmire (vMA, vDSA, etc.)
The older Arena weapons (vMA, vDSA, vAS) — please don't neglect them again during this PTS cycle

TheYKcid

The only official response received so far, indirectly conveyed via our class rep @Masel, was that ZOS is open to the idea (clearly, given how vBRP weapons were designed), but is holding-off as implementing it would require "additional dungeon work":

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5515406/#Comment_5515406

This was assumed to mean they are afraid of having to implement new difficulty modes in the existing vet arenas to award the "new" weapon variants with a 1pc stat bonus.

You don't need to. Existing vet Arena weapons already deserve the bonus. Just slap it on and call it a day. This would merely be equating them with all other common, generic 5/5/2 sets, which is absolutely justified given how much harder to obtain they are.

If you absolutely insist on standardisation of arena rewards, simply add the current iterations of Arena weps (without a 1pc bonus) as a reward for the normal instances of said arenas.

Minimal work required, and the problem would be effectively solved.

Burtan

Just want to add that the vMA 2h dot can currently be both blocked and dodged which doesn't make sense since its a dot and a weak one at that. Such a shame because those weapons look so god damn cool and I imagine a lot of work went into them.

TheYKcid

I miss my vMA 2H too. I was overjoyed when I first got the drop, and got good mileage out of it for the longest time on my DoT-heavy Stamblade build (back before bleedblades became cool, haha).

Haven't had any reason to slot it since Summerset, though.

del9

Agreed, it is older content but why phase them out?

Masel

I mentioned this again at the last meeting, but their stance is unchanged. I still managed to get them to acknowledge that at least asylum weapons already have the content discrepancy that could enable an implementation of 1 pc bonuses onto them.

GrumpyDuckling

Woops, I just bumped your old thread and then noticed you posted this one today. Haha my bad.

TheYKcid

Thank you for continuing to push for this, Masel.

I would contend that even vMA & vDSA have the content split to facilitate this, since the normal instances also have a reward chest at the end.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Woops, I just bumped your old thread and then noticed you posted this one today. Haha my bad.

The more the merrier!

eso_nya

Dont forget that ice staffs still pretend to be dd weapons and s&b's r much undesirable.

Rukzadlithau

Burtan wrote: »

Just want to add that the vMA 2h dot can currently be both blocked and dodged which doesn't make sense since its a dot and a weak one at that. Such a shame because those weapons look so god damn cool and I imagine a lot of work went into them.

Blackrose Bow suffers from the same issue and even worse, barswap cancelling won‘t even apply the dot...
I made elaborate threads in the PTS section about these issues in time, Gilliam even responded in one. Whole thing is a farce.

Koolio

Buzo wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Just want to add that the vMA 2h dot can currently be both blocked and dodged which doesn't make sense since its a dot and a weak one at that. Such a shame because those weapons look so god damn cool and I imagine a lot of work went into them.

Blackrose Bow suffers from the same issue and even worse, barswap cancelling won‘t even apply the dot...
I made elaborate threads in the PTS section about these issues in time, Gilliam even responded in one. Whole thing is a farce.

I believe the VMA bow suffers from the same issue. Not sure about masters or Asylum

TimeDazzler

I don't know about this, there should be some downside to having 2 piece weapon sets. You lose a 5 piece set and 4th stat on one bar but gain basically a 5 piece and a different stat or the same as the 4 pieces once again. The downside is that you don't get 5 pieces on one bar but that logic falls short when you think of sets like clever alchemist or other sets that don't need to double bar'd.

However, I do think it's unfair now that blackrose perfected ones have a bonus and the others don't. Honestly blackrose on normal should not give weapon sets and vet should have given the normal non-perfected ones that don't have a bonus (similar to vDSA).

satanio

Cries wrote: »

I don't know about this, there should be some downside to having 2 piece weapon sets. You lose a 5 piece set and 4th stat on one bar but gain basically a 5 piece and a different stat or the same as the 4 pieces once again. The downside is that you don't get 5 pieces on one bar but that logic falls short when you think of sets like clever alchemist or other sets that don't need to double bar'd.

However, I do think it's unfair now that blackrose perfected ones have a bonus and the others don't. Honestly blackrose on normal should not give weapon sets and vet should have given the normal non-perfected ones that don't have a bonus (similar to vDSA).

Why should there be a downside? What's your reason?

They are really inconsistent with their choices about sets, first they remove bonuses from vMA, then they add second bonuses to two handers, but no no no, we shall not add those to arena weapons... and then they reinvent the bonuses on arena weapons with blackrose. I guess they just wanted Murkmire to somehow stand out.

ccmedaddy

I generally agree with OP but some weapons (*ahem* master dw) might need some adjustments if they're going to be even stronger than they already are.

idk

OP is correct that that all 2H weapons provide 2 pieces of set bonus. However, with the special weapons they all require 2 pieces to get the bonus. Even the DW weapons no longer work as a single. Basically we already get 2pc set bonus from vMA, Master and other weapons of this type.

What we can hope for, and should be requesting, is that these weapons be made available to the normal difficulty levels such as nDSA and nMA just like AS weapons. Then the perfect weapons be provided by clearing vet with some additional requirement such as a no sigil vMA run would grand the perfect MA weapon, otherwise it would be the imperfect weapon.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

OP is correct that that all 2H weapons provide 2 pieces of set bonus. However, with the special weapons they all require 2 pieces to get the bonus. Even the DW weapons no longer work as a single. Basically we already get 2pc set bonus from vMA, Master and other weapons of this type.

What we can hope for, and should be requesting, is that these weapons be made available to the normal difficulty levels such as nDSA and nMA just like AS weapons. Then the perfect weapons be provided by clearing vet with some additional requirement such as a no sigil vMA run would grand the perfect MA weapon, otherwise it would be the imperfect weapon.

Read the 2nd post of this thread. It sounds like ZOS doesn't want to commit to adding new difficulty levels. If that still holds true, then for now I'd rather they restore the bonuses they took away from VMA weapons and add bonuses for other arena weapons.

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP is correct that that all 2H weapons provide 2 pieces of set bonus. However, with the special weapons they all require 2 pieces to get the bonus. Even the DW weapons no longer work as a single. Basically we already get 2pc set bonus from vMA, Master and other weapons of this type.

What we can hope for, and should be requesting, is that these weapons be made available to the normal difficulty levels such as nDSA and nMA just like AS weapons. Then the perfect weapons be provided by clearing vet with some additional requirement such as a no sigil vMA run would grand the perfect MA weapon, otherwise it would be the imperfect weapon.

Read the 2nd post of this thread. It sounds like ZOS doesn't want to commit to adding new difficulty levels. If that still holds true, then for now I'd rather they restore the bonuses they took away from VMA weapons and add bonuses for other arena weapons.

I did not suggest adding new difficulty levels to existing content. I suggested a means to provide perfect weapon of the previous designs and how to award them without creating a new difficulty level.

Besides, a class rep is not really an official channel.

TheYKcid

Cries wrote: »

I don't know about this, there should be some downside to having 2 piece weapon sets. You lose a 5 piece set and 4th stat on one bar but gain basically a 5 piece and a different stat or the same as the 4 pieces once again. The downside is that you don't get 5 pieces on one bar but that logic falls short when you think of sets like clever alchemist or other sets that don't need to double bar'd.

However, I do think it's unfair now that blackrose perfected ones have a bonus and the others don't. Honestly blackrose on normal should not give weapon sets and vet should have given the normal non-perfected ones that don't have a bonus (similar to vDSA).

Clever Alch balances itself with 67% downtime. Compound that with the fact that you lose the CA 4pc bonus when on your frontbar (-129 WD), and you're not even getting a full 5pc bonus' worth anymore.

I could harp-on in more depth about the theoretical downsides of slotting a 2pc Arena set (as I recently did in this complaint thread about Master's DW) but it's easier to let observational evidence speak for itself—how often do you see people running Master's DW frontbar (you can tell based on whether their Rending ticks hit for ~1k or ~2k+)?

Because from what I can see, people running DW frontbar with pure 5/5/2 are FAR more common right now. It provides more consistent burst opportunities, healing power, and boosts your entire AoE combo (i.e Shalks+DB+Spin) as opposed to only single-target pressure. Most people understand this, whether consciously or subconsciously, and that's reflected in the builds they are (or aren't) using.

Edziu

Koolio wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Just want to add that the vMA 2h dot can currently be both blocked and dodged which doesn't make sense since its a dot and a weak one at that. Such a shame because those weapons look so god damn cool and I imagine a lot of work went into them.

Blackrose Bow suffers from the same issue and even worse, barswap cancelling won‘t even apply the dot...
I made elaborate threads in the PTS section about these issues in time, Gilliam even responded in one. Whole thing is a farce.

I believe the VMA bow suffers from the same issue. Not sure about masters or Asylum

well Idk issue with blackrose bow as I dont have but it sounds like master bow issue as:
you cant bar swa until this skill to active weapond set land on enemy - if you swap weapon before skill land on enemy you have no use of this bow

TheYKcid

Master's Bow is fine for swapcancelling. It's the vMA bow where you need to wait for the first tick of damage.

ccfeeling

Risk vs reward?
ZOS say No

Dracane

TheYKcid wrote: »

You don't need to. Existing vet Arena weapons already deserve the bonus. Just slap it on and call it a day. This would merely be equating them with all other common, generic 5/5/2 sets, which is absolutely justified given how much harder to obtain they are.

If you absolutely insist on standardisation of arena rewards, simply add the current iterations of Arena weps (without a 1pc bonus) as a reward for the normal instances of said arenas.

Minimal work required, and the problem would be effectively solved.

And it's not like veteran Asylum stuff is easy to gain in the first place. Harder than Black Rose Prison if you ask me. Because you rely on a good 12 man group to beat AS+2. Black Rose Prison can be done by everyone.

I don't see why arena weapons should be in such a disadvantage. They are harder to gain than any dungeon and overland set. So I beg of you, restore them.

gepe87

Masel wrote: »

I mentioned this again at the last meeting, but their stance is unchanged. I still managed to get them to acknowledge that at least asylum weapons already have the content discrepancy that could enable an implementation of 1 pc bonuses onto them.

How they argue about not buffing arena weapons? They dont update old content cause they cant profit from that?

Vaneur

+1
I also think that would be good if ZOS adds an "imperfected version" of the weapon for those who completed the nMA or nDSA (like asylum and br weapons) but before this hypothetical situation happened all the weapons that currently exist should be improved (add an extra bonus would be ok (and 2h dot undodgeable and unblockable if it lands)) cuz all these weapons that the entire playerbase has, have been earned at the veteran version of MA and DSA

amir412

Not before nerfing master axes.

Vapirko

Yes do update most of the old weapons. But master bow and DW don’t really need a buff.

Emma_Overload

amir412 wrote: »

Not before nerfing master axes.

Yeah and Blackrose axes, too. I ran into a guy with those the other day and he was unkillable! i was unloading on the guy with a full damage build, but his health was barely going down. Then I found out he had easy 100% uptime on Major Protection! LOL, how the hell does ZOS consider that balanced?

TimeDazzler

TheYKcid wrote: »

Clever Alch balances itself with 67% downtime. Compound that with the fact that you lose the CA 4pc bonus when on your frontbar (-129 WD), and you're not even getting a full 5pc bonus' worth anymore.

I could harp-on in more depth about the theoretical downsides of slotting a 2pc Arena set (as I recently did in this complaint thread about Master's DW) but it's easier to let observational evidence speak for itself—how often do you see people running Master's DW frontbar (you can tell based on whether their Rending ticks hit for ~1k or ~2k+)?

Because from what I can see, people running DW frontbar with pure 5/5/2 are FAR more common right now. It provides more consistent burst opportunities, healing power, and boosts your entire AoE combo (i.e Shalks+DB+Spin) as opposed to only single-target pressure. Most people understand this, whether consciously or subconsciously, and that's reflected in the builds they are (or aren't) using.

The point isn't about clever alc. there are many sets that only require one bar with zero downtime, for example, steadfast hero. As for the stat loss I mentioned that in my OP, yea you are losing 129 wep dmg if using CA, but you are gaining whatever one piece bonus master DW may get so really you aren't losing anything. The only downside is you cannot use a one set on both bars but as I said many sets don't require you too. So you are fitting in a free weapon set that can be quite powerful if not more powerful then many 5 piece bonus, like master DW or asylum bow. If you want to go double arena weapons then you can use one 5 piece set and any 3 piece cyrodiil set. Many people use master DW on front bar, especially duelists, you simply cannot give that up with how strong rending already is and how much it gets amplified. Weapon sets will always be utilized when there are sets that only require one bar and are already very potent even without a bonus, which is currently the only disadvantage they have. People could also argue that if all weapon sets had a 1 piece bonus then running two 5 piece sets on both bars is a disadvantage because you are not getting a weapon set passive like you could have if you had ran a set that only required one bar. Like I said in the OP blackrose perfected should never have gotten a 1 piece bonus.

React

Agreed that all old arena weapons need 1 piece bonuses. Additionally, some of them need their 2pc bonuses changed.

• VMA two hander needs a buff. The dot is far too weak to be useful whatsoever, in addition to the fact that there is already very little reason to slot a gap closer in the first place. I'd recommend either changing the effect to something different entirely, or increasing the damage a little more. While it is important to be careful about buffing the damage as gap closers in general are powerful Xv1 tools since they ignore snare immunity, there needs to be some reason to use a vma 2h over any other option.
• VMA dual wield is outdated now. as flurry is no longer used whatsoever. The 2 pc would have to be re hauled to make the vma DW worthwhile.
• The asylum dual wield is pointless. In both pvp and pve, there is no place whatsoever for it. Consider changing the 2pc entirely to be something different (but please no proc damage on steel tornado, that would be very bad)
• The resource restore buff you get after using heroic slash with a vma s&b should be increased to a 15 second duration. This will allow for ample time to get a heavy attack off after using the slash, instead of forcing you to follow up the slash immediately with a heavy attack.
• Master's dual wield should have it's additional damage reduced to a flat 1,000. 1,500 was too much, 1,250 is still too much. 1,000 would be reasonable.
• Asylum destro might become grossly OP with the return of a 1pc stat bonus.
• Gallant charge (blackrose s&b) is useless. Consider re hauling 2pc to something different.
• Asylum resto is barely used. Consider changing 2 pc.
• DSA 2h is too hard to use, in the sense that cleave's aoe is so small and difficult to aim that you gain almost no benefit from the 2pc. Consider buffing the damage component, or changing cleave's range/radius.

If I neglected anything my apologies, these are just my experiences so far.

Apherius

if they could update the blackrose arena weapons too this would be cool, these weapons are bad.

Tsar_Gekkou

It'd be nice if all arena weapons had 30% cost reduction that goes with the associated skill like the Master destro has. Master restos could have reduced healing springs cost, asylum destros could have reduced force pulse costs, and etc.