The older Arena weapons (vMA, vDSA, vAS) — please don't neglect them again during this PTS cycle

lucky_dutch · October 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

I'm aware of that. I was under the impression you were saying you used Master reach as a spammable and responded as such.

Prior to Summerset many magblades actually were using Master destro is the way you described. Back then it was still valuable because you needed a 1pc set to fill the 11th "dead" slot in a destro/resto build. That changed drastically in Summerset.

Now you're far better off using 5/5/2 even if you running swallow+reach (for reasons already covered by myself and other posters). I'm not bashing on your build, and i'm sure you do well on it, but that's not an argument against buffing an underperforming set. It's far from optimal and that's a fact.

Depends what your 5 sets are. If you're using a proc set you may want that deliberately back bar-only so that you can control the proc to line it up with other burst. In that case whatever you're running on front bar will only benefit from 1-2 piece bonuses. That pretty much makes it a decision between Masters and Willpower and the buffs to destructive reach are waaaaaay better than flat 1500 Mag imo.

If you're just running a straight dps boosting set like War Maidens or Necro then yeah I can see how you'd be right.

templesus · October 2018

Saying these sets don’t need buffed is asinine. Ask all the stamina players running Maestrom/Master/Asylum 2h nowadays. Oh wait.

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

Is this real? Yeah, sure, vDSA, vMA and vAS weapons sure are out of the loop when they are still widely popular. Not sure what that huge fat bleed ticks are on my combat log then and why people still use Wall of Elements or Mutagen back bar with vMA staff.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

Bump for justice

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@IZZEFlameLash , you're mostly bringing outliers as an example. That's the thing, only those arena weapons are popular that either can be put on back bar (because at this point they're not worth losing 5/5/2 bonuses permanently), or give some narrow advantage like DW for bleed builds or destro for status effects in PvE. Majority of arena weapons that go to front bar, though, are deconstruction material, and running arena for a chance of purple temper most of the time... Not inspiring.

IZZEFlameLash · October 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@IZZEFlameLash , you're mostly bringing outliers as an example. That's the thing, only those arena weapons are popular that either can be put on back bar (because at this point they're not worth losing 5/5/2 bonuses permanently), or give some narrow advantage like DW for bleed builds or destro for status effects in PvE. Majority of arena weapons that go to front bar, though, are deconstruction material, and running arena for a chance of purple temper most of the time... Not inspiring.

Not every arena/trial weapons and sets have been strong. vMA bows for stam DPS, vMA staves for magicka DPS and healers, Master's staves for PvP ranged magicka DPS, bleed builds are obvious. 2h Asylum, bow from that same trial also are used. There always have been useful ones and not so useful ones. And it is not in business interest for them to strengthen older loots instead of new ones. Why even buy new DLCs if you don't get an access to something so powerful?

John_Falstaff · October 2018

@IZZEFlameLash , oh, I do understand that spice must flow new DLCs must sell. But it's never been a healthy picture that some arena sets are downright useless, and Summerset narrowed the gap quite a bit - so the gain now is even less for all the grind. Summerset was an indirect nerf to old arena weapons. Also, I think there'd be less complaints if new DLC actually offered something better - but vBRP weapons, aside from resto, look stillborn as things stand now. So, old things nerfed, new things aren't good to begin with.

Masel · October 2018

"@Masel We aren't against the idea but don't currently have plans for it. It would require additional dungeon work."

Dev quote on the 1 piece arena weapon idea. This doesn't mean that we should stop pushing it, only that we need more players to push it!

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

"@Masel We aren't against the idea but don't currently have plans for it. It would require additional dungeon work."

Dev quote on the 1 piece arena weapon idea. This doesn't mean that we should stop pushing it, only that we need more players to push it!

Ouch, what a letdown.

mr_wazzabi · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

"@Masel We aren't against the idea but don't currently have plans for it. It would require additional dungeon work."

Dev quote on the 1 piece arena weapon idea. This doesn't mean that we should stop pushing it, only that we need more players to push it!

What do they mean by "additional dungeon work" ?

ccmedaddy · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

"@Masel We aren't against the idea but don't currently have plans for it. It would require additional dungeon work."

Dev quote on the 1 piece arena weapon idea. This doesn't mean that we should stop pushing it, only that we need more players to push it!

What's additional "dungeon work"? Do the devs work in a literal dungeon?

Masel · October 2018

They mean that if they do it, tthey would have us complete the old content on a new difficulty so we have to regrind it all. Man that's disappointing.

LiquidPony · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

They mean that if they do it, tthey would have us complete the old content on a new difficulty so we have to regrind it all. Man that's disappointing.

You know, I try to keep a positive outlook and I try to be nice ... but reading stuff like this really tries my patience.

They want us to complete old content on a new difficulty to regrind weapons to get back bonuses that were already on the weapons years ago but were taken away from us?

What.

Are.

They.

Smoking.

mr_wazzabi · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

They mean that if they do it, tthey would have us complete the old content on a new difficulty so we have to regrind it all. Man that's disappointing.

Why take that route? Why not just update all our earned weapons? The original arenas on vet are hard enough

LiquidPony · October 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

They mean that if they do it, tthey would have us complete the old content on a new difficulty so we have to regrind it all. Man that's disappointing.

Why take that route? Why not just update all our earned weapons? The original arenas on vet are hard enough

Because they hate us.

I feel bad for the class reps and the community managers, who are all nice people who want the players to have fun, but they suffer from having to represent the sadistic puppy-kickers who run the combat dev teams.

Probably a lot like being a customer service rep for Comcast.

WrathOfInnos · October 2018

Honestly, I would gladly go farm another Perfected Asylum Inferno Staff if it started dropping with a 1pc stat bonus. Ideally Spell Damage, Max Magicka or Spell Crit. However I wouldn’t even object to it receiving Magicka Regen since a Force Pulse rotation is difficult to sustain.

They can rename all my current Perfected weapons as Imperfect (without changing their stats of course, just lacking the 1pc bonus). And get rid of the old Imperfect versions (anyone who has one gets upgraded to the new Imperfect version).

Now I can see why people would object to having to regrind vMA and vDSA weapons just to regain the bonuses that they used to have. Even for these, it could breath some new life into old content. I would recommend the same system as Asylum weapons, so everyone keeps their weapons as they currently exist, but a new Perfected version starts dropping from vet with an additional 1pc stat bonus. If anyone wants to farm the old version then it could start dropping from nMA and nDSA. Technically nobody loses any stats, if you don’t want to get the new version your old one will remain the same.

I’m torn on the magnitude of these bonuses, since they previously had 1.5X the standard stat bonus value. If that is too overpowered in the current game, then the typical set bonus values would be ok. They should be balanced in a way that makes 5-3-2-2 approximately equivalent to 5-5-2. They should be BIS for some builds, but not required for every build. Currently any ability altering weapon on front bar is a DPS loss over builds that utilize 2 5-piece sets and a monster helm set, and that is just wrong for how difficult these are to obtain.

TheYKcid · October 2018

I really don't understand their thought process sometimes. We already earned those weapons on veteran difficulty and deserve to have them at full, perfected power.

In any case, thanks for keeping us up-to-date on the issue, Masel. I'll keep fighting for it til ZOS comes through!

What_In_Tarnation · October 2018

Since add 1 more piece bonus back will require more dungeons work (vMA, vDSA and vAS). You know you can just remove 1 piece bonus from perfected BRP arena weapons, cause you only need 1 dungeon work here.

Please don't listen to my feedback.

Masel · October 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Honestly, I would gladly go farm another Perfected Asylum Inferno Staff if it started dropping with a 1pc stat bonus. Ideally Spell Damage, Max Magicka or Spell Crit. However I wouldn’t even object to it receiving Magicka Regen since a Force Pulse rotation is difficult to sustain.

They can rename all my current Perfected weapons as Imperfect (without changing their stats of course, just lacking the 1pc bonus). And get rid of the old Imperfect versions (anyone who has one gets upgraded to the new Imperfect version).

Now I can see why people would object to having to regrind vMA and vDSA weapons just to regain the bonuses that they used to have. Even for these, it could breath some new life into old content. I would recommend the same system as Asylum weapons, so everyone keeps their weapons as they currently exist, but a new Perfected version starts dropping from vet with an additional 1pc stat bonus. If anyone wants to farm the old version then it could start dropping from nMA and nDSA. Technically nobody loses any stats, if you don’t want to get the new version your old one will remain the same.

I’m torn on the magnitude of these bonuses, since they previously had 1.5X the standard stat bonus value. If that is too overpowered in the current game, then the typical set bonus values would be ok. They should be balanced in a way that makes 5-3-2-2 approximately equivalent to 5-5-2. They should be BIS for some builds, but not required for every build. Currently any ability altering weapon on front bar is a DPS loss over builds that utilize 2 5-piece sets and a monster helm set, and that is just wrong for how difficult these are to obtain.

The new difficulty would just be for veteran maelstrom and dragon star, since asylum is already split into perfected and imperfect. They can just do it like in blackrose, have the normal drop in normal and the perfected with the additional bonus drop on veteran. I promised myself that they day they make me regrind arena weapons due to any change (something like this or a gear cap increase) I am gonna leave this game immediately. I invested so much time into getting enough of them for my characters that I am definitely not going to do that again.

The bonuses were there before, they took them away and now they want us to work for them again? No thanks.

Aliyavana · October 2018

Delete

Aliyavana · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Honestly, I would gladly go farm another Perfected Asylum Inferno Staff if it started dropping with a 1pc stat bonus. Ideally Spell Damage, Max Magicka or Spell Crit. However I wouldn’t even object to it receiving Magicka Regen since a Force Pulse rotation is difficult to sustain.

They can rename all my current Perfected weapons as Imperfect (without changing their stats of course, just lacking the 1pc bonus). And get rid of the old Imperfect versions (anyone who has one gets upgraded to the new Imperfect version).

Now I can see why people would object to having to regrind vMA and vDSA weapons just to regain the bonuses that they used to have. Even for these, it could breath some new life into old content. I would recommend the same system as Asylum weapons, so everyone keeps their weapons as they currently exist, but a new Perfected version starts dropping from vet with an additional 1pc stat bonus. If anyone wants to farm the old version then it could start dropping from nMA and nDSA. Technically nobody loses any stats, if you don’t want to get the new version your old one will remain the same.

I’m torn on the magnitude of these bonuses, since they previously had 1.5X the standard stat bonus value. If that is too overpowered in the current game, then the typical set bonus values would be ok. They should be balanced in a way that makes 5-3-2-2 approximately equivalent to 5-5-2. They should be BIS for some builds, but not required for every build. Currently any ability altering weapon on front bar is a DPS loss over builds that utilize 2 5-piece sets and a monster helm set, and that is just wrong for how difficult these are to obtain.

The new difficulty would just be for veteran maelstrom and dragon star, since asylum is already split into perfected and imperfect. They can just do it like in blackrose, have the normal drop in normal and the perfected with the additional bonus drop on veteran. I promised myself that they day they make me regrind arena weapons due to any change (something like this or a gear cap increase) I am gonna leave this game immediately. I invested so much time into getting enough of them for my characters that I am definitely not going to do that again.

The bonuses were there before, they took them away and now they want us to work for them again? No thanks.

I agree. Casuals would be happy and those of us that did it in vet will have an extra set bonus as an incentive so it would be a win win

Masel · October 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Honestly, I would gladly go farm another Perfected Asylum Inferno Staff if it started dropping with a 1pc stat bonus. Ideally Spell Damage, Max Magicka or Spell Crit. However I wouldn’t even object to it receiving Magicka Regen since a Force Pulse rotation is difficult to sustain.

They can rename all my current Perfected weapons as Imperfect (without changing their stats of course, just lacking the 1pc bonus). And get rid of the old Imperfect versions (anyone who has one gets upgraded to the new Imperfect version).

Now I can see why people would object to having to regrind vMA and vDSA weapons just to regain the bonuses that they used to have. Even for these, it could breath some new life into old content. I would recommend the same system as Asylum weapons, so everyone keeps their weapons as they currently exist, but a new Perfected version starts dropping from vet with an additional 1pc stat bonus. If anyone wants to farm the old version then it could start dropping from nMA and nDSA. Technically nobody loses any stats, if you don’t want to get the new version your old one will remain the same.

I’m torn on the magnitude of these bonuses, since they previously had 1.5X the standard stat bonus value. If that is too overpowered in the current game, then the typical set bonus values would be ok. They should be balanced in a way that makes 5-3-2-2 approximately equivalent to 5-5-2. They should be BIS for some builds, but not required for every build. Currently any ability altering weapon on front bar is a DPS loss over builds that utilize 2 5-piece sets and a monster helm set, and that is just wrong for how difficult these are to obtain.

The new difficulty would just be for veteran maelstrom and dragon star, since asylum is already split into perfected and imperfect. They can just do it like in blackrose, have the normal drop in normal and the perfected with the additional bonus drop on veteran. I promised myself that they day they make me regrind arena weapons due to any change (something like this or a gear cap increase) I am gonna leave this game immediately. I invested so much time into getting enough of them for my characters that I am definitely not going to do that again.

The bonuses were there before, they took them away and now they want us to work for them again? No thanks.

If they want us to regrind, how bout just introducing imperfect versions of old arena weapons that drop in normal and having the veteran versions have the extra stats? Casuals would be happy and those of us that did it in vet will have the extra set bonus.

That's exactly what I said in my post

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

"@Masel We aren't against the idea but don't currently have plans for it. It would require additional dungeon work."

Dev quote on the 1 piece arena weapon idea. This doesn't mean that we should stop pushing it, only that we need more players to push it!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437512/make-arena-weapons-great-again#latest

You guys may vote here and keep the thread up to bring this to more attention.

Thanks.

Masel · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

"@Masel We aren't against the idea but don't currently have plans for it. It would require additional dungeon work."

Dev quote on the 1 piece arena weapon idea. This doesn't mean that we should stop pushing it, only that we need more players to push it!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437512/make-arena-weapons-great-again#latest

You guys may vote here and keep the thread up to bring this to more attention.

Thanks.

I already did

TheYKcid · October 2018

Dropped a vote and a bump. Keep fighting the good fight, @Buzo

code65536 · October 2018

This is also an opportunity to fix balancing issues with the Asylum weapons.

For some weapons, the difference between normal and perfected is so small that there's really no benefit to using the perfected version. E.g., the resto's cost reduction improves from 27% to 30%.

And for the destro staff, the difference is massive--the perfected version will proc 50% more often. A year ago during the CwC PTS, this was the biggest complaint levied against the Asylum weapons. The problem is that the normal version is so weak that there's really no reason to use it. Particularly now that Elemental Weapon is a thing. Three casts to apply all 3 status effects for the normal Asylum destro. Whereas Elemental Weapon will apply 1 status effect per cast and thus 3 status effects in 3 casts (though no guarantee that the 3 will be different). The normal staff will apply status effects at the same rate as Elemental Weapon. Except using an ability that costs more than Elemental Weapon. And consuming two set bonuses.

This will be an opportunity to remake the Asylum bonuses to make them more fair. Give normal Asylum weapons the perfected 2p effect. So normal Asylum resto will reduce cost by 30%, and normal Asylum destro will proc every 2 casts. And then add the stat bonus to the Perfected versions.

The end result is that for most weapons, there will be a more significant difference between normal and perfected and more incentive to get and use the perfected. And for the destro, there will be less difference between the two and the normal version will not be so worthlessly bad.

TheYKcid · October 2018

code65536 wrote: »

Give normal Asylum weapons the perfected 2p effect. So normal Asylum resto will reduce cost by 30%, and normal Asylum destro will proc every 2 casts. And then add the stat bonus to the Perfected versions.

This would be fair. It's also consistent with the perfect/imperfect system that ZOS seems to be pushing with the Cloudrest and Blackrose sets.

I just hope it doesn't involve too much "dungeon work".

Masel · October 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Give normal Asylum weapons the perfected 2p effect. So normal Asylum resto will reduce cost by 30%, and normal Asylum destro will proc every 2 casts. And then add the stat bonus to the Perfected versions.

This would be fair. It's also consistent with the perfect/imperfect system that ZOS seems to be pushing with the Cloudrest and Blackrose sets.

I just hope it doesn't involve too much "dungeon work".

Asylum isn't as much of an issue in the dungeon work direction since you already have normal and perfected weapons. Bit they could simply introduce the same thing as in blackrose for maelstrom and dragonstar.

TheYKcid · October 2018

True, since both Dragonstar and Maelstrom already have normal instances. All they would have to do is add imperfect versions to the end-rewards for those.

To be completely honest I was against giving-out Arena weps on normal difficulty in the past, but it's probably better for the health of the game in the long run. Casual players would feel less excluded, and vets would still have an avenue and incentive for progression in terms of getting the perfected versions, like @Aliyavana mentioned.

code65536 · October 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

To be completely honest I was against giving-out Arena weps on normal difficulty in the past, but it's probably better for the health of the game in the long run. Casual players would feel less excluded, and vets would still have an avenue and incentive for progression in terms of getting the perfected versions, like @Aliyavana mentioned.

Master weapons originally dropped in both normal and vet DSA. Back when DSA was scaled to VR14, you would get VR14 Master weapons from vet and VR13 Master weapons from normal. The nDSA drops were eliminated when DSA was rescaled in One Tamriel.

This leaves the Maelstrom weapons as the only gear in the entire game that requires and has always required a vet completion. People who did nDSA prior to the OT update could've gotten Master weapons. And Undaunted masks are available via the vendor, though at the mercy of the random schedule.

So, for the sake of consistency, nMA absolutely needs to drop weapons. This was hard to justify prior to the Perfected gear system, but now there's simply no good reason not to do this. Make the current Maelstrom weapons drop in normal. Create new Perfected weapons with stat bonuses and have them drop in sigil-free vet runs and the weekly boards. Anyone who wants the new Perfected weapons should re-run vMA. And if you don't want to re-run, that's fine, because your current weapon will remain the same so you're not losing anything. (You want an upgrade to your power? Go and run the content for it.)