Templars far too strong

Kadoin

Ruckly wrote: »

1. As far as tanky healer groups go defile won't do much for you anyways since it will be cleansed.

2. Unless you make the group move with their expedition buff then knock some one out of the group and immobilize while the group is still moving then focus fire and kill them.

3. And once their numbers are down a few and some redundancy is lost you bomb/siege them.

Tanky healing ball groups are never affected by the changes to heals or defile because they can just stack more of it. If tanking heal groups are a problem, then its either a sign that the measures against them aren't well-implemented, healing proc sets are out of control and/or should be reviewed, or the players complaining were simply outclassed.

If you ask me, healing isn't even that powerful and is actually behind damage (but no buff or nerf to either are needed). It's only strong when combined with proc sets and other defenses. I can honestly say defile made little to no difference before or after the changes in every patch to my healer. That's not because heals are powerful, but because a simple roll or blocking can also increase the overall effectiveness of anyone healing. CC spam (timestop, petrify, bombard, etc.) works better at killing me than anything else on my mag templar.

I honestly heal less than ever with honor the dead, with only 16K crit healing, and on a super-offensive build tilting towards healing and ignoring sustain only 32K max. To put that in perspective, in One Tamriel with a lesser build configuration I had 45-49K crit heal AND I had around 4K mag regen (in blue gear ). Those days are gone and to get a high heal, you have to become glass and forego sustain. No one wants to do that, and so they actually move towards more defensive builds that require LESS healing, yet somehow healing needs a nerf? No, the defensive builds need a nerf otherwise you nerf healing and everyone will be running ultra defensive builds that need less healing + proc sets that heal and don't require any stat investment (if they aren't smart enough to be doing so right now).

Another thing is that these builds only rose to prominence because of nerfs. ZOS nerfed sustain so you have to cut your damage in PvP to compensate one way or another, or use proc sets that do damage BUT don't do enough sustained damage to put any real pressure on players that aren't standing and doing nothing. Strangely enough, this phenomena is only observed in CP PvP where you get more resources, better crit heals, better healing modifiers, better crit rate, and better defense.

Yet time and time again, somehow templar is the problem. I can tell you I have better healing on my DK, better sustain on my hybrid NB healer (better to survive on too), better healing + offense on mag warden. The only advantage templar honestly gives me are ritual and rememberance, and even then its not worth the loss of stam sustain that is possible on DK and NB when you get focused IMO. The lack of an AoE healing ult makes little to no difference on non-Templar healers in PvP, esp. the larger the group gets. If templar got nerfed tommorow, I would just move to my DK or NB and accomplish the same exact thing. In fact, I already use my DK healer more in BGs...

Also, I still use light armor on all of my chars that take up healing in Cyrodil.

Ruckly

I think I exploded an emp with soul shatter and dark flare. That must mean my magplar is op.

Minno

Kadoin wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

1. As far as tanky healer groups go defile won't do much for you anyways since it will be cleansed.

2. Unless you make the group move with their expedition buff then knock some one out of the group and immobilize while the group is still moving then focus fire and kill them.

3. And once their numbers are down a few and some redundancy is lost you bomb/siege them.

Tanky healing ball groups are never affected by the changes to heals or defile because they can just stack more of it. If tanking heal groups are a problem, then its either a sign that the measures against them aren't well-implemented, healing proc sets are out of control and/or should be reviewed, or the players complaining were simply outclassed.

If you ask me, healing isn't even that powerful and is actually behind damage (but no buff or nerf to either are needed). It's only strong when combined with proc sets and other defenses. I can honestly say defile made little to no difference before or after the changes in every patch to my healer. That's not because heals are powerful, but because a simple roll or blocking can also increase the overall effectiveness of anyone healing. CC spam (timestop, petrify, bombard, etc.) works better at killing me than anything else on my mag templar.

I honestly heal less than ever with honor the dead, with only 16K crit healing, and on a super-offensive build tilting towards healing and ignoring sustain only 32K max. To put that in perspective, in One Tamriel with a lesser build configuration I had 45-49K crit heal AND I had around 4K mag regen (in blue gear ). Those days are gone and to get a high heal, you have to become glass and forego sustain. No one wants to do that, and so they actually move towards more defensive builds that require LESS healing, yet somehow healing needs a nerf? No, the defensive builds need a nerf otherwise you nerf healing and everyone will be running ultra defensive builds that need less healing + proc sets that heal and don't require any stat investment (if they aren't smart enough to be doing so right now).

Another thing is that these builds only rose to prominence because of nerfs. ZOS nerfed sustain so you have to cut your damage in PvP to compensate one way or another, or use proc sets that do damage BUT don't do enough sustained damage to put any real pressure on players that aren't standing and doing nothing. Strangely enough, this phenomena is only observed in CP PvP where you get more resources, better crit heals, better healing modifiers, better crit rate, and better defense.

Yet time and time again, somehow templar is the problem. I can tell you I have better healing on my DK, better sustain on my hybrid NB healer (better to survive on too), better healing + offense on mag warden. The only advantage templar honestly gives me are ritual and rememberance, and even then its not worth the loss of stam sustain that is possible on DK and NB when you get focused IMO. The lack of an AoE healing ult makes little to no difference on non-Templar healers in PvP, esp. the larger the group gets. If templar got nerfed tommorow, I would just move to my DK or NB and accomplish the same exact thing. In fact, I already use my DK healer more in BGs...

Also, I still use light armor on all of my chars that take up healing in Cyrodil.

Yea you don't really enjoy cyro until you come across your first heavy armor stamblade that dodge cancels vigor from low health but to full in 1 or 2 ticks lol.

But let's keep the Templar nerf train moving! :Trollface:

JaJaLuka

This is the best use I have found for my Templar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFSwUdLWx7I
It's overwhelming.

grannas211

This is basically a Templar support thread

CyrusArya

grannas211 wrote: »

This is basically a Templar support thread

Well considering how the Templar community is generally the most constructive and supportive of the classes in my experience, it’s not a surprise. Just a natural function of playing a class that shines in a group setting and has been pretty mediocre for years upon years. An ignorant and unsubstantiated QQ thread could only go one way.

Ramber

1. Dude if they are that OP just make one and use it, you can level one in about a week with the skill pts you need.

2. They seem to die just find to me and my groups are always small.

hesobad

MuckyBums wrote: »

Templars. All the purifies. Paired with argonians are far far too strong. There damage is stupid high. Resistances stupid high. They are currently the master class. Pretty much crappy players can pick one up and cause decent players trouble. Most are sword shield. And they can have good stamina pools. They are like sorcs used to be but stronger. I mean who's idea was it to give them 5 purifies over and over. And rune. The class for a long time has out performed all other classes. Everyone accept the people who use them complain . F..All is changed

LMFAO!!! WHAT!? Dude templars have been the lowest on damage forever! you're going to complain about purifies! Dude stop being ignorant and slot Efficient Purge from the Alliance War skill tree if you want a purge on your non-templar. Learn to counter stuff rather than complain about it! Every class has their niche that makes them "OP"

examples being:
- DK wings, fossilize
- -NB incap / cloak
- Warden almost everything. Trees, subterranean, and betty neche free purge per cast no cost
- Sorc endless fury guaranteed kill steal in bgs, streak kiting, hurricane implosion kills in bgs. and the most OP Rune Cage

Get_Packed

CyrusArya wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I'll say this much.
Templars are inherently more tanky. These days, it feels like tanks can dish out almost as much damage as damage-oriented builds. Of course, it's not 100% on par, but 85% - and that is enough if the weak damage build is distracted for a second. Whereas the other way around, tanky builds can easily afford a mistake or two without consequences. The scales aren't tipped right, and that is what Templars benefit from.

As a whole, the Dragonknight and Warden class are both significantly tankier than Templar. And again, I know this isn’t directed towards Stamplar, i.e the stam spec with the weakest healing of them all. So I’ll reiterate when it comes to Magplar that if you actually build to have damage, you won’t be exceptionally tanky and vice versa. Magplar “tankiness” is an illusion. Being able to bounce back constantly to full looks very hardy on the surface until you realize how one dimensional, binary, and completely reactive the class’ defensive design is. Which isn’t an issue if you’re a tanky heal bot, but isnt very forgiving at all if you’re a light armor damage spec.

So no, Templar doesn’t benefit from the dynamic you describe. Basically no Light/Medium Armor damage spec does. You know what does abuse disproportionate amounts of damage relative to their tankiness? Heavy armor stam builds, as they have for years. Magplar, and no magicka class, is in the same ball park when it comes to this regard as heavy stam.

This guy has played magplar and gets it. Reading this you can tell who has spent a lot of time on magplar and who doesnt. I played only magplar in pvp for two years and i can vouch for what he is saying. A magpalr that is trying to do damage often gets stuck on the healing bar, rune buff helped a alot but the best pvpers stay mobile so you cant really always count on the bonus to resistances.
The big heals also cost a lot forceing many magplars to run ele drain. Being forced to run ele drain kinda sucks when your already forced to run entropy( remeber, the class your advocating to be nerfed doesnt even have its own source maj sorcery.)The class also has to run vamp to help sustain and mitigate damage and most of all, stay mobile.

Now if your one the stambros who got worse over the last few months and are depening on bleeds to kill a magplar then magplar might be broken to you. If your a dk running dots magplar might feel broken, if your a bowtard that gets hit by total dark then magplar might feel broken to you. Is it broken overall, nah.
I feel like many builds that used to rolfstomp magplars no longer are able to roflstomp magplars causing people to qq. Magplar has been in a bad spot since the radiant nerf like 2.5 years ago. Zos has been tweaking magplar slowly and responsibly over the last few patches and I feel that they have it right. Continue to complain, they aren’t nerfing it.

MuckyBums

Then they are crap Templars. The Templars I know. Are godmode. You must know rubbish ones.

Get_Packed

MuckyBums wrote: »

Then they are crap Templars. The Templars I know. Are godmode. You must know rubbish ones.

Very. Constructive comment. I totally. See where your. Coming from.

clocksstoppe

So now instead of daily nerf sorc thread we get 4 other classes nerf threads from angry sorcs cause they got used to god mode.

Fascinating.

MuckyBums

Then they are crap Templars. The Templars I know. Are godmode. You must know rubbish ones.

Ruckly

This was a good thread. It is fake news like everything in the general forum but with some good factual debate between intelligent people. Should have a racial passives as it relates to cyrodill debate thread and get something worth reading. The additive thing they are pushing vs. the multiplicative coefficient thing we have now is crap. With free floating numbers racials' will be subject to change at any whim in the foreseeable future. And because of spreadsheet warriors vs. Extra-Linear Dynamics they most likely will be changed in the future. The"...Cantorian continuum of infinities of possible move and response..." that goes unrecognized.

Kadoin

MuckyBums wrote: »

Then they are crap Templars. The Templars I know. Are godmode. You must know rubbish ones.

If someone is a god-mode templar, then they are likely 1000x worse on other classes. I feel sorry for those that face my stam DK and hybrid NB, it's not even a real competition and only a one-sided slaughter for my enemies (esp. sorcs and other mag specs)...and that's why they are both shelved in favor of my Templar and Healer DK. I can't stand winning all the time and it definitely is more "fun" to play specs that have weaknesses.

Minno

Ruckly wrote: »

This was a good thread. It is fake news like everything in the general forum but with some good factual debate between intelligent people. Should have a racial passives as it relates to cyrodill debate thread and get something worth reading. The additive thing they are pushing vs. the multiplicative coefficient thing we have now is crap. With free floating numbers racials' will be subject to change at any whim in the foreseeable future. And because of spreadsheet warriors vs. Extra-Linear Dynamics they most likely will be changed in the future. The"...Cantorian continuum of infinities of possible move and response..." that goes unrecognized.

We will but it will happen on pts section monday.
We shouldn't clog normal forums until the items reach live.

But we will have those discussions.

Ruckly

Minno wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

This was a good thread. It is fake news like everything in the general forum but with some good factual debate between intelligent people. Should have a racial passives as it relates to cyrodill debate thread and get something worth reading. The additive thing they are pushing vs. the multiplicative coefficient thing we have now is crap. With free floating numbers racials' will be subject to change at any whim in the foreseeable future. And because of spreadsheet warriors vs. Extra-Linear Dynamics they most likely will be changed in the future. The"...Cantorian continuum of infinities of possible move and response..." that goes unrecognized.

We will but it will happen on pts section monday.
We shouldn't clog normal forums until the items reach live.

But we will have those discussions.

Until they reach live...but light and medium armor are going to be penalized. If you run 2x light or 2x medium sets you are more likely going to have a higher magicka/stamina pool than if you run heavy/light or heavy/medium and as a result the additive constant racial doesn't even scale with light or medium whereas the multiplicative coefficient does. The additive regen number also benefits heavy since heavy armor typically doesn't have regen numbers to be multiplied(unless you are stacking health regen).

-5 DKP for lack of foresight.

Putting something like a 5% magicka multiplier and a 5% stamina on light and medium armor respectively may rectify the problem.

e.g. bright throat + light armor damage set of choice + Mighty Chudan

vs.

rattlecage + bright throat + Domihaus + other monster hat

vs.

Shacklebreaker(heavy) + bright throat + Domihaus + other monster hat & on demand cc immunity /w Unstoppable

for raw stat comparison.

MuckyBums

Kadoin wrote: »

MuckyBums wrote: »

Then they are crap Templars. The Templars I know. Are godmode. You must know rubbish ones.

If someone is a god-mode templar, then they are likely 1000x worse on other classes. I feel sorry for those that face my stam DK and hybrid NB, it's not even a real competition and only a one-sided slaughter for my enemies (esp. sorcs and other mag specs)...and that's why they are both shelved in favor of my Templar and Healer DK. I can't stand winning all the time and it definitely is more "fun" to play specs that have weaknesses.

---
True they onky play this type. Frustrating as hell though

MasterSpatula

Templars? Really? Templars?

Not DKs shrugging off everything? Not NBs cloaking when their health is low, coming out of cloak with full health, and still able to do astonishing damage? Templars?

Okay.

Ruckly

MuckyBums wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

MuckyBums wrote: »

Then they are crap Templars. The Templars I know. Are godmode. You must know rubbish ones.

If someone is a god-mode templar, then they are likely 1000x worse on other classes. I feel sorry for those that face my stam DK and hybrid NB, it's not even a real competition and only a one-sided slaughter for my enemies (esp. sorcs and other mag specs)...and that's why they are both shelved in favor of my Templar and Healer DK. I can't stand winning all the time and it definitely is more "fun" to play specs that have weaknesses.

---
True they onky play this type. Frustrating as hell though

Thread should be locked. This bump seems intended to keep a pointless thread going. All avenues of analysis have been exhausted.

jaime1982

Close this joke of a thread.

technohic

Just stop replying.


Wait....


OK after this post.

JackDaniell

Onslaught this thread

Idinuse

For information on the Templar history of OP-ness please turn on subtitles.
https://youtu.be/IQPT85gPa-c

StarOfElyon

Solariken wrote: »

I recently said this in another thread, but IMO there are really only two things that take magplar into the realm of OP, which are Undeath and Mist Form.

The only natural counter to magplar I see is to limit their mobility and kill them through attrition (aka make them block-heal until they run out of stamina/magicka). Vampirism covers this weakness better on magplar than any other class. It allows reposition to LOS with a window of free stamina regen (and mag regen via CFocus and HtD proc) for almost infinite block-casting heals.

It really is easy mode for anyone with a brain and I think is the root of this cockroachy magplar resurgence.

Yes. I'm sick of people telling me that MagPlar is META or OP when they're talking about VAMPIRES. If you refuse to play a vampire it's a whole different world. There's a difference people. But as long as we keep saying that Templar are OP or "in a good spot" when we're really talking about Vampires then ZOS will never address the flaws that the class has which keeps us from being able to play them without a team around us.