Templars far too strong

technohic

Drdeath20 wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

5 light, 1 med, 1 heavy (for undaunted passive)
38k magicka, 23k health, 13k stam
30k spell resist, 24k phys resist while standing in rune
4.2k spell damage with full buffs
14k spell pen

Squishy if you miss a buff or heal or use too much stam blocking or breaking free but the damage is good.

And no, I didn't get my build from YouTube

Every class can do this fully buffed in heavy and they dont need to wear rattlecage or waste a potion on spell power potion.

Edit: your wearing clever alchemist and using spell power pots. Thus no invisibility, speeding or unstoppable. You can get ~the same numbers with every class but you will have class access to major sorcery soo you can use much better potions.

Yeah, you still take up a slot which you would for entropy or morphs. The difference is the secondary effects are better on the class skills for major sorcery OR brutality. Only exception being NB but due to there's being melee and not being able to use from stealth, just doesn't mesh with the class outside of sap tanks which were nerfed out of existence. But they have plenty of other buffs and debuffs.

Ruckly

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NBrookus wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

e

NBrookus wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

5 light, 1 med, 1 heavy (for undaunted passive)
38k magicka, 23k health, 13k stam
30k spell resist, 24k phys resist while standing in rune
4.2k spell damage with full buffs
14k spell pen

Squishy if you miss a buff or heal or use too much stam blocking or breaking free but the damage is good.

And no, I didn't get my build from YouTube

How much crit res do you have? And if you get knocked out of the rune you lose 50% of 52## and if you can't get back in you're out 1.5 x 52##. That still seems to be quite a bit a resistance in light. Did you include the spell/phys pen that everyone has from CP? I imagine for a CP 160 player it would be more like 25k spell res, 19k phys res in rune; 18.5k spell res, 11.5k phys res no rune.

Rune now grants you full Major Ward and Major Resolve even when you aren't in the Rune, for the full buff duration of 20 seconds. You get an additional 2640 resists while in the Rune.

The change was made in Wolfhunter, and is really the reason magplars can spec more into damage than they could before.

That sounds broken. I thought it was still 6 seconds. Anybody can run through your rune and get the same buff. I've been using Balance for armor buff since it is the best way to remove stuck in combat bug but 20 seconds of Major Resolve and Major Ward for 1k magicka and you can stand in the rune for 4 second and get that back where other classes have to spend 4k magicka for the same buff!? The Templar class representative should go into politics if he can get that through.

"Anybody can run through your rune and get the same buff. " No, they can't. It's a self-buff only. Only Warden has a armor buff that also buffs allies.

You know nightblades get their armor buff for free as a passive, right? In the case of templars, Rune is armor buff + sustain. Other classes have other sources of class sustain. For example, DKs have battle Roar, Wardens have Netch (which is FREE), etc. Other classes also have armor buffs with additional benefits. Sorcs get theirs with major expedition, DKs get theirs with 12% extra healing and some damage.

The armor/sustain buffs are pretty comparable across classes when you look at how it all works together. (Sorcs could use a little love here.) Before this change, templars were the only class who had to stay in or return to their rune for a very basic buff.

Balance is a bad choice for an armor buff for a low mobility class whose strength is healing. Don't help your enemies put you in execute range, especially not while steel potato is so strong. And you are giving up your only source of sustain in your class. I would honestly choose Chudan over Balance... and I wouldn't choose Chudan.

You've said things like light armor templar is bad, but it really truly is not. I've had all my mag toons in light for a at least 2 years and wouldn't go back to heavy the way the game is now. There are SO many options now with jewelry crafting. You can make light tankier, but it's really hard to give heavy the penetration and crit.

Magplars are in a lovely, viable spot with real choices to make about tanky versus damage versus healing. Since Summerset I haven't felt like I was gimping myself for playing magplar, but it's also not my strongest class spec.

Unless it has changed I'm pretty sure other players can stand in your rune and get the buff. I've seen people stand in my rune and get the shimmering effect. While the tool tip says "you" who that you is seems to be anybody allied that stands in it. I might be wrong but I've dropped it at gates and people have got the shimmering effect. I've dropped it in dungeon groups and people have got the shimmering effect.

Templars would/could use the heavy armor skill for the buff. That is rough on magplars. They can use Balance which does work in a group because there are HoTs anyways. The rune with 20 seconds is obviously the best of the three and I would use it hands down on any class because it is only 1k magicka(except maybe nightblade if they get it for free). At 6 seconds with the 50% buff if you stand in it is still very strong. IMO templars don't need that armor buff that cheaply. That weakness was a defining point of the templar. Similar to how templars don't have easy access to major sorcery/brutality. Instead they get a cleanse that removes 5 debuffs which is very strong. I prefer the polarized templar instead of an op armor buff which will put a 5 debuff cleanse on the nerf radar.

I don't recall ever saying light armor templar was bad. I said it would be one of the toughest armor/class combinations to play except maybe a light armor warden. The reason being the lack of shield stack which is an overheal and the lack of defense against a bow gank. If you can play it you are probably a good player and some point if I figure something out that I like I might run one since you would have to play pretty sharp to pull it off. It would be good for improving my group pvp skill.

IMO rune is OP and I play a magplar. A turret healer that can still get the armor buff for 20 seconds after leaving the rune is to strong IMO. Healers should have to give something up if they want super armor. That something was 6 seconds of armor after they leave rune. Or using a different skill for the armor buff.

And Balance is a good skill. It looks bad but it's good. I suppose it depends on what you run for max health. In a group if you need magicka and there are dots going around anyways it is extra sustain to save someone else either in the moment or prophylactically.

That was a lot of points to cover . The thread is "Templars far too strong" and I'm getting something that requires a 5 paragraph answer.

Kartalin

Unless it’s broken (not out of the question with this game), rune is just a self-buff. And if you find that balance is working well for major resolve/ward, then I have doubts about the quality of competition you are facing.

VagabondAngel

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Every class can do this fully buffed in heavy and they dont need to wear rattlecage or waste a potion on spell power potion.

Edit: your wearing clever alchemist and using spell power pots. Thus no invisibility, speeding or unstoppable. You can get ~the same numbers with every class but you will have class access to major sorcery soo you can use much better potions.

I didn't say they couldn't, I just quoted my own stats which, tbh, were pretty easily achieved without focusing on stacking resists or spell damage. I think I have better penetration than most though.

I also don't use Clever Alchemist or Rattlecage, you're confusing my post with someone else's build.

CyrusArya

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

Vapirko

CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

Agreed. I don’t understand why people bother to get frustrated and ask for class nerfs over healbot and similar tanky builds. Just ignore them. They will always exist no matter what. For the most part, nerfing those builds does nothing but shift the way they play while it hurts legit builds.

Ruckly

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CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

technohic

Ruckly wrote: »

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CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

You keep going off on tangents. He meant as far as balance. NB as an example, is a bit different in that theres returns resources when hit and a burst at the and and they get the resistance by using abilities in the one skill tree. Templars is cast and just does a steady return of resources and the resistance is tied to that skill. Sorc was recently homogonized a little bit but their resource return also serves as a heal and it comes from their off pool.

Mrsinister2

Ruckly wrote: »

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NBrookus wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

e

NBrookus wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

5 light, 1 med, 1 heavy (for undaunted passive)
38k magicka, 23k health, 13k stam
30k spell resist, 24k phys resist while standing in rune
4.2k spell damage with full buffs
14k spell pen

Squishy if you miss a buff or heal or use too much stam blocking or breaking free but the damage is good.

And no, I didn't get my build from YouTube

How much crit res do you have? And if you get knocked out of the rune you lose 50% of 52## and if you can't get back in you're out 1.5 x 52##. That still seems to be quite a bit a resistance in light. Did you include the spell/phys pen that everyone has from CP? I imagine for a CP 160 player it would be more like 25k spell res, 19k phys res in rune; 18.5k spell res, 11.5k phys res no rune.

Rune now grants you full Major Ward and Major Resolve even when you aren't in the Rune, for the full buff duration of 20 seconds. You get an additional 2640 resists while in the Rune.

The change was made in Wolfhunter, and is really the reason magplars can spec more into damage than they could before.

That sounds broken. I thought it was still 6 seconds. Anybody can run through your rune and get the same buff. I've been using Balance for armor buff since it is the best way to remove stuck in combat bug but 20 seconds of Major Resolve and Major Ward for 1k magicka and you can stand in the rune for 4 second and get that back where other classes have to spend 4k magicka for the same buff!? The Templar class representative should go into politics if he can get that through.

"Anybody can run through your rune and get the same buff. " No, they can't. It's a self-buff only. Only Warden has a armor buff that also buffs allies.

You know nightblades get their armor buff for free as a passive, right? In the case of templars, Rune is armor buff + sustain. Other classes have other sources of class sustain. For example, DKs have battle Roar, Wardens have Netch (which is FREE), etc. Other classes also have armor buffs with additional benefits. Sorcs get theirs with major expedition, DKs get theirs with 12% extra healing and some damage.

The armor/sustain buffs are pretty comparable across classes when you look at how it all works together. (Sorcs could use a little love here.) Before this change, templars were the only class who had to stay in or return to their rune for a very basic buff.

Balance is a bad choice for an armor buff for a low mobility class whose strength is healing. Don't help your enemies put you in execute range, especially not while steel potato is so strong. And you are giving up your only source of sustain in your class. I would honestly choose Chudan over Balance... and I wouldn't choose Chudan.

You've said things like light armor templar is bad, but it really truly is not. I've had all my mag toons in light for a at least 2 years and wouldn't go back to heavy the way the game is now. There are SO many options now with jewelry crafting. You can make light tankier, but it's really hard to give heavy the penetration and crit.

Magplars are in a lovely, viable spot with real choices to make about tanky versus damage versus healing. Since Summerset I haven't felt like I was gimping myself for playing magplar, but it's also not my strongest class spec.

Unless it has changed I'm pretty sure other players can stand in your rune and get the buff. I've seen people stand in my rune and get the shimmering effect. While the tool tip says "you" who that you is seems to be anybody allied that stands in it. I might be wrong but I've dropped it at gates and people have got the shimmering effect. I've dropped it in dungeon groups and people have got the shimmering effect.

Templars would/could use the heavy armor skill for the buff. That is rough on magplars. They can use Balance which does work in a group because there are HoTs anyways. The rune with 20 seconds is obviously the best of the three and I would use it hands down on any class because it is only 1k magicka(except maybe nightblade if they get it for free). At 6 seconds with the 50% buff if you stand in it is still very strong. IMO templars don't need that armor buff that cheaply. That weakness was a defining point of the templar. Similar to how templars don't have easy access to major sorcery/brutality. Instead they get a cleanse that removes 5 debuffs which is very strong. I prefer the polarized templar instead of an op armor buff which will put a 5 debuff cleanse on the nerf radar.

I don't recall ever saying light armor templar was bad. I said it would be one of the toughest armor/class combinations to play except maybe a light armor warden. The reason being the lack of shield stack which is an overheal and the lack of defense against a bow gank. If you can play it you are probably a good player and some point if I figure something out that I like I might run one since you would have to play pretty sharp to pull it off. It would be good for improving my group pvp skill.

IMO rune is OP and I play a magplar. A turret healer that can still get the armor buff for 20 seconds after leaving the rune is to strong IMO. Healers should have to give something up if they want super armor. That something was 6 seconds of armor after they leave rune. Or using a different skill for the armor buff.

And Balance is a good skill. It looks bad but it's good. I suppose it depends on what you run for max health. In a group if you need magicka and there are dots going around anyways it is extra sustain to save someone else either in the moment or prophylactically.

That was a lot of points to cover . The thread is "Templars far too strong" and I'm getting something that requires a 5 paragraph answer.

Unless it broke very very recently other players do not get the buff for standing in your rune as I tried this not that long ago other players can't even see it after you cast it just like with other ground aoes.

Marcus684

There was a group of around 10 “Special Forces” AD hanging around Bleakers last night on Vivec PC/NA that was really hard to get rid of with anything less than a full ball group raid. They weren’t killing most opponents quickly (except the occasional potato) but were all super tanky and would wear down most of the pugs fighting them. When we finally wiped them, my “Kill Enemy Templars” quest went from 0/20 to I think 8/20. I think this is a good example of where magplar is right now. A group built right can be all but undefeatable, but they’re going to have to work to get wipes versus large groups of opponents.

technohic

Marcus684 wrote: »

There was a group of around 10 “Special Forces” AD hanging around Bleakers last night on Vivec PC/NA that was really hard to get rid of with anything less than a full ball group raid. They weren’t killing most opponents quickly (except the occasional potato) but were all super tanky and would wear down most of the pugs fighting them. When we finally wiped them, my “Kill Enemy Templars” quest went from 0/20 to I think 8/20. I think this is a good example of where magplar is right now. A group built right can be all but undefeatable, but they’re going to have to work to get wipes versus large groups of opponents.

Well that's not really a templar problem as much as overall design. Its same with any ball group. You cant single out a target in 1 as easily as they can pass buffs and heals. They build tanky and rely on all those small hits from multiple sources on one victim who isn't built in a group like that.

Joy_Division

Ruckly wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

How does consistent = "perfectly symmetrical"? Would you be cool if your main had a class eccentricity of having crappy resource management?

Marcus684

technohic wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

There was a group of around 10 “Special Forces” AD hanging around Bleakers last night on Vivec PC/NA that was really hard to get rid of with anything less than a full ball group raid. They weren’t killing most opponents quickly (except the occasional potato) but were all super tanky and would wear down most of the pugs fighting them. When we finally wiped them, my “Kill Enemy Templars” quest went from 0/20 to I think 8/20. I think this is a good example of where magplar is right now. A group built right can be all but undefeatable, but they’re going to have to work to get wipes versus large groups of opponents.

Well that's not really a templar problem as much as overall design. Its same with any ball group. You cant single out a target in 1 as easily as they can pass buffs and heals. They build tanky and rely on all those small hits from multiple sources on one victim who isn't built in a group like that.

This difference is this group went beyond tanky almost to troll-level. Any other well-balanced group will lose a member here and there and have some oh-crap moments where it gets dicey, but will also mow down the opposition more effectively. This group was getting kills, but not on par with other similar-sized groups I often encounter while pugging around, but I barely saw any of their health bars budge and cc-ing any of them was a rarity. It just fits with the tanky/heal meta that has been the magplar’s forte for quite awhile.

technohic

Marcus684 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

There was a group of around 10 “Special Forces” AD hanging around Bleakers last night on Vivec PC/NA that was really hard to get rid of with anything less than a full ball group raid. They weren’t killing most opponents quickly (except the occasional potato) but were all super tanky and would wear down most of the pugs fighting them. When we finally wiped them, my “Kill Enemy Templars” quest went from 0/20 to I think 8/20. I think this is a good example of where magplar is right now. A group built right can be all but undefeatable, but they’re going to have to work to get wipes versus large groups of opponents.

Well that's not really a templar problem as much as overall design. Its same with any ball group. You cant single out a target in 1 as easily as they can pass buffs and heals. They build tanky and rely on all those small hits from multiple sources on one victim who isn't built in a group like that.

This difference is this group went beyond tanky almost to troll-level. Any other well-balanced group will lose a member here and there and have some oh-crap moments where it gets dicey, but will also mow down the opposition more effectively. This group was getting kills, but not on par with other similar-sized groups I often encounter while pugging around, but I barely saw any of their health bars budge and cc-ing any of them was a rarity. It just fits with the tanky/heal meta that has been the magplar’s forte for quite awhile.

I know which group you speak of. I was there last night and ran into them a few other times. Doc or something was a templar, Baylor Corvette was there and not sure what they were running, a han solo was a Dk that was usually around drawing attention, and there was a NB who seemed to be on camp/rez duty. There were a few more so I am assuming that's where the templar count came from but yes, most were tanky and difficult to deal with when bunched up. We got SOME of them a couple of times but it was mostly when maybe a couple were running from a much larger group beating them down and they were scattered. Would need as organized and synergize group if you want to take them on head on. I'm not sure if expect much different.

Ruckly

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technohic wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

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CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

You keep going off on tangents. He meant as far as balance. NB as an example, is a bit different in that theres returns resources when hit and a burst at the and and they get the resistance by using abilities in the one skill tree. Templars is cast and just does a steady return of resources and the resistance is tied to that skill. Sorc was recently homogonized a little bit but their resource return also serves as a heal and it comes from their off pool.

What I stated isn't a tangent at all. In is the higher order rationale to what I am arguing. I don't want to deflect a bunch of posts individually here because I don't like where it is going. Logical looking arguments ad infinitum and eventually some personality cult pivot that states "such and such a person is uneducated and doesn't know what they are talking about". Tangents give lower order functions. What I stated is a universal with a particular parameter.

Also Radiant Aura and Repentance.

Kartalin

Ruckly wrote: »

Tangents give lower order functions..

And the derivative of a tangent is the square of the secant of the angle.

technohic

Radiant aura is not used. Repentance is of the variety of the NB passive stam recovery if a target dies within a few seconds of using an assassin ability. They could also slot mark and get a much bigger heal after a target dies. Sounds like different flavors to me.

Edit: Almost forgot. One of those assasination abilities that bumps up recovery, also is an execute that returns health if you kill your target.

Just going off NB as that's what I ran last night.

Ruckly

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Joy_Division wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

How does consistent = "perfectly symmetrical"? Would you be cool if your main had a class eccentricity of having crappy resource management?

You do a good job Joy. I play magplar I get cheap armor buff. The thread title is "Templars far too strong" and this imo is the most OP skill recently introduced to templar. The 5 debuff cleanse is also OP. That has been around forever though. I only started using it recently I always used the other morph and being able to remove all debuffs from the people around me is a bit strong imo. Earthgore does the same off cooldown so there is a counter argument.

The change to rune is OP because it is cheap and lasts 20 seconds. I always accepted that my templar had strengths and weaknesses. My templar does have skills that provide sustain if that is something I am after. This post is in the alliance war forum so I am arguing from the alliance war perspective.

From this perspective standing in a rune with the magicka regen and super armor buff and spamming heals on my self if I need to or spamming heals on others if I can makes me to strong as a healer and the healer is often a priority target. A templar healer should not get this minifort they can heal their group from. And if they get knocked out of their minifort they still get 20 seconds of armor buff.

Nerfing the templars single target heal is nonsense since that is a staple of the templar.

Kartalin

Ruckly wrote: »

The 5 debuff cleanse is also OP. That has been around forever though. I only started using it recently I always used the other morph and being able to remove all debuffs from the people around me is a bit strong imo. Earthgore does the same off cooldown so there is a counter argument.

The cleanse has had its cost increased a couple times now to compensate. Also, that's not how Earthgore works, and it never did even before it was balanced.

Joy_Division

Ruckly wrote: »

e

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

How does consistent = "perfectly symmetrical"? Would you be cool if your main had a class eccentricity of having crappy resource management?

You do a good job Joy. I play magplar I get cheap armor buff. The thread title is "Templars far too strong" and this imo is the most OP skill recently introduced to templar. The 5 debuff cleanse is also OP. That has been around forever though. I only started using it recently I always used the other morph and being able to remove all debuffs from the people around me is a bit strong imo. Earthgore does the same off cooldown so there is a counter argument.

The change to rune is OP because it is cheap and lasts 20 seconds. I always accepted that my templar had strengths and weaknesses. My templar does have skills that provide sustain if that is something I am after. This post is in the alliance war forum so I am arguing from the alliance war perspective.

From this perspective standing in a rune with the magicka regen and super armor buff and spamming heals on my self if I need to or spamming heals on others if I can makes me to strong as a healer and the healer is often a priority target. A templar healer should not get this minifort they can heal their group from. And if they get knocked out of their minifort they still get 20 seconds of armor buff.

Nerfing the templars single target heal is nonsense since that is a staple of the templar.

If you think Rune Focus is a "super armor buff" and a "minifort," you need to get out of the faction stack (which is what I'm guessing is "alliance war perspective") and actually pit yourself with your OP templar skills in challenging situations.

If Templars are so OP show me with evidence, don't tell me with hyperbolic descriptions

Ruckly

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

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Joy_Division wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

How does consistent = "perfectly symmetrical"? Would you be cool if your main had a class eccentricity of having crappy resource management?

You do a good job Joy. I play magplar I get cheap armor buff. The thread title is "Templars far too strong" and this imo is the most OP skill recently introduced to templar. The 5 debuff cleanse is also OP. That has been around forever though. I only started using it recently I always used the other morph and being able to remove all debuffs from the people around me is a bit strong imo. Earthgore does the same off cooldown so there is a counter argument.

The change to rune is OP because it is cheap and lasts 20 seconds. I always accepted that my templar had strengths and weaknesses. My templar does have skills that provide sustain if that is something I am after. This post is in the alliance war forum so I am arguing from the alliance war perspective.

From this perspective standing in a rune with the magicka regen and super armor buff and spamming heals on my self if I need to or spamming heals on others if I can makes me to strong as a healer and the healer is often a priority target. A templar healer should not get this minifort they can heal their group from. And if they get knocked out of their minifort they still get 20 seconds of armor buff.

Nerfing the templars single target heal is nonsense since that is a staple of the templar.

If you think Rune Focus is a "super armor buff" and a "minifort," you need to get out of the faction stack (which is what I'm guessing is "alliance war perspective") and actually pit yourself with your OP templar skills in challenging situations.

If Templars are so OP show me with evidence, don't tell me with hyperbolic descriptions

Come on Joy. You are placing me in the wrong category with prejudice. I'm simply trying to identify why people suddenly think templars are OP. Outside of rune templars seem the same as they have always been.

_Ahala_

Round and round the nerf craze goes, where does it stop, nobody knows...

Well, probably after every class is completely homogenized, the roof literally becomes the floor, and the game feels bad to play...

Everyone who’s here asking for nerfs... just look at your own mains... what do you find powerful, unique and fun about those classes? Remember when sorcs were insanely fast and hit hard? When wardens has offensive synchrony and good mobility? When templar could hold its ground and fight with blinding effects and major mending? When dk had aoe inferno and the ability to actually finish opponents off? When nb had excellent sustain and the ability to win battles of attrition? When vampire actually had invisibility on clouding swarm? As our classes got nerfed those aspects suddenly become “OP” and were removed... games not so fun anymore because of it

So please... for the love of the eight divines... let’s just ask for buffs to the useless and over nerfed abilities of our own classes instead of begging zos to destroys what’s left of others classes... their are lots of useless morphs and passives for every class that could be improved for the sake of class diversity and balance... this game is become more and more irritating to play and it’s community is becoming more and more bitter / toxic each patch because of all the nerfs to our beloved playstyles... buff every class with new options so they feels fun, powerful, and unique again in PvP and then buff all the mindless pve mobs to battle the power creep this brings... this is the only way to fix the game balance issues without angering everyone

Minno

Ruckly wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

e

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Templar Rune is a very strong skill, but its fine and was one of the best changes to happen to the class in recent times. If healbots are over performing, nerf heal bots. But neither Stamplar nor light armor damage Magplar are over powered, and the rune change was a necessary buff in making them competitive. There's no reason that Templars source of major resolve and ward should be a temporary buff that requires you to stay stationary. I could see that argument when we had major mending, but that is ancient history. Stamplar still hasn't been properly modernized or been compensated for the loss of mending to this day. The sustain from the skill is phenomenal, but it is also the class' only source of sustain and it is consistent with mechanics on other classes.

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

How does consistent = "perfectly symmetrical"? Would you be cool if your main had a class eccentricity of having crappy resource management?

You do a good job Joy. I play magplar I get cheap armor buff. The thread title is "Templars far too strong" and this imo is the most OP skill recently introduced to templar. The 5 debuff cleanse is also OP. That has been around forever though. I only started using it recently I always used the other morph and being able to remove all debuffs from the people around me is a bit strong imo. Earthgore does the same off cooldown so there is a counter argument.

The change to rune is OP because it is cheap and lasts 20 seconds. I always accepted that my templar had strengths and weaknesses. My templar does have skills that provide sustain if that is something I am after. This post is in the alliance war forum so I am arguing from the alliance war perspective.

From this perspective standing in a rune with the magicka regen and super armor buff and spamming heals on my self if I need to or spamming heals on others if I can makes me to strong as a healer and the healer is often a priority target. A templar healer should not get this minifort they can heal their group from. And if they get knocked out of their minifort they still get 20 seconds of armor buff.

Nerfing the templars single target heal is nonsense since that is a staple of the templar.

If you think Rune Focus is a "super armor buff" and a "minifort," you need to get out of the faction stack (which is what I'm guessing is "alliance war perspective") and actually pit yourself with your OP templar skills in challenging situations.

If Templars are so OP show me with evidence, don't tell me with hyperbolic descriptions

Come on Joy. You are placing me in the wrong category with prejudice. I'm simply trying to identify why people suddenly think templars are OP. Outside of rune templars seem the same as they have always been.

Someone has to play devil's advocate.

Rune isn't what is irking Templar above everyone's perception of OP. They even stealth changed it to 240 every second instead of the old 120 every half second. While it was done to make it easier to quantify, it also made it feel less substantial because it's no longer every half second but full second (not that it matters, but at least it made yourbar feel more full during combat).

Standing still I go from 19k resists to 21k. If 2k restist is OP, I'm loss of words lol.

CyrusArya

Ruckly wrote: »

The last 6 words of your paragraph are in error IMO. e.g. take the 12 classes from GW1. Class consistency wasn't a thing. ESO has 5. Why should they be consistent with one another? Should there not be more eccentricities and less symmetries? Making all 5 classes perfectly symmetrical is an expression of decadence.

Ruckly wrote: »

Come on Joy. You are placing me in the wrong category with prejudice. I'm simply trying to identify why people suddenly think templars are OP. Outside of rune templars seem the same as they have always been.

Look man, I’m gonna be frank with you. I don’t take the input of someone who doesn’t understand how their own armor buff works seriously. You clearly don’t get what I mean about consistency, but it has nothing to do with classes being symmetrical. The point is, every class has strengths in its own ways that are equal in magnitude but unique in function. In other words: balanced. The rune was changed cus the old version was actually terrible for damage dealers.

I’ve already identified why people think Templar is op: ignorance and lack of perspective. How damage builds and heal bots are completely different things. And based on your flawed reasoning, you’re really no different. Just cus some random person makes a claim doesn’t make it true, the class is fine. Templar is finally in a good spot where it can shine in roles besides just being a dedicated healer- and even then it isn’t best at any of those roles besides healing. It’s a great class right now and should be the standard: Defined strengths and weaknesses, well rounded, and viable for both stamina and magicka. Strong, fun, and balanced.

This is the last post I’m gonna make in this thread as I’m done entertaining a false assertion.

disintegr8

If you think Templars are OP, roll one out instead of complaining.

There's always going to be a class that is OP or is too weak - ZOS make changes and it only moves the problem to another class. Just deal with it.

NBrookus

People think templars are OP because they are wrong. They see a healer, a tank and a damage-plar and think every magplar can do all 3 at once. They can't.

But it's just another normal day on the forums when people who have no perspective on other classes want to cry something is OP.

Ruckly

The thread has gone in the direction of templars aren't OP at all. I still think rune is OP but I could care less either way. A lot of people lack understanding but it doesn't matter if the status quo is templars are not OP. The only thing worth nerfing is rune and 5 debuff cleanse. There is nothing else to nerf so if rune holds then templar should be fine. There is no other specific skill that can be called OP. Besides rune the only other argument is clerics in general are op because people can now heal and dps all of a sudden. Or maybe the templar pocket heal is to easy? That hasn't been stated but you would have to play a templar to know how templar healing works. It would seem an adequate antithesis has been fielded.

Minno

Ruckly wrote: »

The thread has gone in the direction of templars aren't OP at all. I still think rune is OP but I could care less either way. A lot of people lack understanding but it doesn't matter if the status quo is templars are not OP. The only thing worth nerfing is rune and 5 debuff cleanse. There is nothing else to nerf so if rune holds then templar should be fine. There is no other specific skill that can be called OP. Besides rune the only other argument is clerics in general are op because people can now heal and dps all of a sudden. Or maybe the templar pocket heal is to easy? That hasn't been stated but you would have to play a templar to know how templar healing works. It would seem an adequate antithesis has been fielded.

Templar is either OP or it isn't. It can't be both lol.

Ruckly

Minno wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

The thread has gone in the direction of templars aren't OP at all. I still think rune is OP but I could care less either way. A lot of people lack understanding but it doesn't matter if the status quo is templars are not OP. The only thing worth nerfing is rune and 5 debuff cleanse. There is nothing else to nerf so if rune holds then templar should be fine. There is no other specific skill that can be called OP. Besides rune the only other argument is clerics in general are op because people can now heal and dps all of a sudden. Or maybe the templar pocket heal is to easy? That hasn't been stated but you would have to play a templar to know how templar healing works. It would seem an adequate antithesis has been fielded.

Templar is either OP or it isn't. It can't be both lol.

In these nerf threads it usually is both. In this case even though rune is super cheap and has many benefits everyone other than me agrees that it is fine. Aside from the 5 debuff cleanse which has always existed there is nothing OP about templar other than people discovering it plays like a cleric. Therefore templar is not OP in a landslide.

O_LYKOS

MuckyBums wrote: »

They are currently the master class. Pretty much crappy players can pick one up and cause decent players trouble.

Honestly couldnt disagree more. Decent players i know can wipe the floor with good templars lol let alone a crappy player. There is no master class.