ZOS: Can this stupid PUG "trick" get a fix?

ZeroXFF

zaria wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I've never seen anyone in actual PUGs use this trick, I did do it with premades when we went for pledges. However I do agree that at the very least it's a bug, and technically shouldn't happen.

With that said, the difficulty difference between FG1 and vFH is insane. I've been saying for a long time that there should be a tiered system for dungeons. Not only will it allow people to be able to queue for the kind of content that they have time and the skills for, but it will also give people a sense of progression when each tier has dungeons of comparable difficulty in it, and people know what tier they are or are not qualified for.

I'd also go further than DLC/non-DLC, because even though it has been a trend that DLC dungeons are harder, it doesn't necessarily have to be the case in the future, and comparing vFG1 to vCoA2 or vWGT to vFH isn't appropriate either. There is a big difference in difficulty and/or time requirement between all 4 of these, and the tier system should reflect that.

Also having an undaunted arena with scores for the performance of a specific role could help people figure out what dungeons they should or should not go to. I explained what I have in mind in a different thread with a different context, if you're interested, but that would solve the problem of people dropping out of dungeons too, because they would be more confident in the group's skills.

Falckreach hold? March of sacrifice is an pug killer on normal. I rank the normal as harder than vet 1 dungeons.
And yes they changed the dlc dungeons so the standard vet should not be so hard but HM is very hard.
Also experience, lots of the March of sacrifice issues is experience have had normals fail because people did not get CoS2 mechanic on second last boss or headless chickens in Darkshade 2

I hadn't been doing normals much (or at all) for the past 2 years or so, aside from leveling, so I have no real point of reference for how hard or easy they are on maxed chars. However when it comes to non-HM DLC vets, I still think vFH is the hardest, because it wipes even groups that know what they are doing and are pulling decent DPS. In vMoS I never had issues, but it's also newer, so I guess if I do it a few more time with PUGs, I might change my mind.

The hard modes of the newer dungeons (vSP, vFL, vMoS, vMHK) are definitely harder than vFH hm, but I don't think that we should take hard modes as the measure of what a PUG should be able to complete, so IMO hm should be ignored when figuring out the dungeon tiers for the proposed system.

Mureel

Acrolas wrote: »

I think the main issue is that this method permits you to take a shortcut within a shortcut, which seems like an unfair way to get not only the reward box, but the bonus experience and supplies.

If FG1 didn't have such an obvious shortcut, I might feel differently. But there's definitely intent here to expedite the process beyond what would be, perhaps, a reasonable expectation.

Nearly the same difference in EH1, DC1 and likely others.

I think people are just being unreasonable about it.

If this was such a big issue people would have been bitching about it far before the event. It is because they are using the event to use players to get what they want.

Funny how they’re ok to attempt to exploit people who are just trying to get their things done; who clearly don’t need them to do it, but all stuffy about people deciding *as a group to do what the group majority wants*.

2 days and you can go back to hoping for carries for all your quests and free skill points.

I never complain when people are so inexperienced that I am doing 70%+ dps and min 50% heals and I know I’m not the only one. I just get it done and let people enjoy things.

So for a few days perhaps the people benefitting from my and others’ patience and time most of the time can just take a chill pill over the period of the event.

It’s only an issue for them right now, because they are used to getting their way the rest of the time.

I always give my time to pug groups - but this one week we just want to get all our chars through. For one week; just let us get done. Be as patient as we are the rest of the time for once.

Also: You wanted the box event not to hit so hard onto motif sales and you got your wish. Just be happy.

SpacemanSpiff1

Jolipinator wrote: »

I asked a group in Volenfell to go to Fungal Grotto today and they ignored me. They preferred to stand outside the various doors for 10 minutes because we were inexplicably still in combat.

If you want to play long dungeons during this event find 3 other people who feel the same way. Most players don't have a lot of time to play.

Or you could make a premade with 3 others who intend to cheese FG1 every run.

HallowedUndead

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Do you know how tiring it is whenever you get into a group through the Activity Finder only for the leader to say 'lemme p0rt to fungal grotto 1, brah' because he/she/it/whatever refuses to do the actual the dungeon they get? You STILL get the rewards from the Activity Finder even though they manually port to an easier "dungeon" (Fungal Grotto 1 is just an oversized delve, seriously). That isn't a 'random dungeon through the activity finder' in my book. Can that get fixed, please? Pretty please.

I'm sure people will disagree because this easy peasy lemon squeezy cheesy "trick" is too much of a convenience for them.

EDIT: Lo and behold! People who like to exploit stuff already came in to defend this. I'm done.

I understand your point, but it is used in productive and non-exploiting ways. For example, you can queue for a random, and then port to one of the undaunted dailies to kill two birds with one stone.

Acrolas

Mureel wrote: »

Nearly the same difference in EH1, DC1 and likely others.

I think people are just being unreasonable about it.

But it's really hard to deny that FG1 is being singled out over Darkshade, Banished, and the other low difficulty dungeons because FG1 has one very specific feature that those other dungeons lack.

If you do get FG1 randomly and your group objectively sucks and you just want to escape that nonsense, by all means take the leap. It's the intent to take that leap just so you don't have to deal with the alternatives (a long pickup dungeon or a queue penalty) that makes the action questionable.

I went along with this once to observe the action in question so I could accurately give feedback on it, and based on how I personally felt afterward I'm not going to do it again and I wouldn't recommend anyone to do so until it's officially condoned. I'm not going to let repeat offenses stack up because getting banned for several days is a whole lot worse than a two hour Scalecaller Peak pickup group.

I bring that up specifically because if we're on track to get about four new DLC dungeons a year, lumping random-friendly and random-unfriendly content together is just going to worsen behavior like this thread is addressing. So I would definitely, definitely implore @ZOS_Finn to look into creating six dungeon queue options - Random Base Game, Random DLC, Random All Non-Veteran, Veteran Base Game, Veteran DLC, and Random All Veteran. Maybe relax the role restrictions on Random Base Game so that more people can be pushed through that queue; just recommend that players queue Normal Base with a comfortable balance of damage, defense, and self-heal capabilities.

I personally do not expect an excellent random Base Game group to translate well to DLC mechanics-based content, and I do not expect somebody to feel shamed that they left because the random aspect throws such wildly different content at you. Let's attack that problem and then if people are still doing the FG1 port then it might be a lot easier to describe it as not as intended. But I still wouldn't endorse doing the port in absence of an official position on it.

LiquidPony

Who cares?

The Random Daily Dungeon is super casual content. There are no leaderboards, achievements, titles, or even meaningful gear or rewards involved.

Stop worrying about what other people do with their time.

Mureel

Acrolas wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Nearly the same difference in EH1, DC1 and likely others.

I think people are just being unreasonable about it.

But it's really hard to deny that FG1 is being singled out over Darkshade, Banished, and the other low difficulty dungeons because FG1 has one very specific feature that those other dungeons lack.

If you do get FG1 randomly and your group objectively sucks and you just want to escape that nonsense, by all means take the leap. It's the intent to take that leap just so you don't have to deal with the alternatives (a long pickup dungeon or a queue penalty) that makes the action questionable.

I went along with this once to observe the action in question so I could accurately give feedback on it, and based on how I personally felt afterward I'm not going to do it again and I wouldn't recommend anyone to do so until it's officially condoned. I'm not going to let repeat offenses stack up because getting banned for several days is a whole lot worse than a two hour Scalecaller Peak pickup group.

I bring that up specifically because if we're on track to get about four new DLC dungeons a year, lumping random-friendly and random-unfriendly content together is just going to worsen behavior like this thread is addressing. So I would definitely, definitely implore @ZOS_Finn to look into creating six dungeon queue options - Random Base Game, Random DLC, Random All Non-Veteran, Veteran Base Game, Veteran DLC, and Random All Veteran. Maybe relax the role restrictions on Random Base Game so that more people can be pushed through that queue; just recommend that players queue Normal Base with a comfortable balance of damage, defense, and self-heal capabilities.

I personally do not expect an excellent random Base Game group to translate well to DLC mechanics-based content, and I do not expect somebody to feel shamed that they left because the random aspect throws such wildly different content at you. Let's attack that problem and then if people are still doing the FG1 port then it might be a lot easier to describe it as not as intended. But I still wouldn't endorse doing the port in absence of an official position on it.

And for one week, so what? The rest of the time, please let’s at least face the reality of who is taking advantage of whom? Alternatively- the group could just vote kick the other and they could queue again.

However instead they’re making it easy on the group whole to get their things done.

Usually these same people are the ones who are getting something for nearly nothing and you don’t see everyone else losing their minds.

CM doesn’t lie. People do.

Acrolas

Mureel wrote: »

And for one week, so what? The rest of the time, please let’s at least face the reality of who is taking advantage of whom? Alternatively- the group could just vote kick the other and they could queue again.

I'll admit to having had to heal more frantically and excessively in an instance of Normal Spindleclutch One than I did in Normal White-Gold Tower during this event.

But using inexperienced players to justify a certain behavior doesn't alter the reality of either. I'm not going to call it an exploit because honestly I don't know the best word to unofficially describe the behavior. But if ZOS chooses to react and/or ban or even just patches in a wall of rocks, you can't blame the inexperienced players for the behavior or the consequences. It was a behavior you made a conscious choice to follow and repeat.

That goes for any behavior in the game. I can only do my best under the circumstances I'm in, and I cannot shift blame if a gray area is suddenly reinterpreted in absolutes. So always proceed with caution; perhaps too much rather than not enough.

Arciris

Bans are not going to happen because there is no reason to ban people for this.

If players couldn't port directly to another dungeon, players would just drop the unwanted dungeon, log into another character and try their luck again.

Or, like last year, have a level 10-15 group leader queue for the easiest dungeons.

Either way, people will still choose the path of least resistance.

This year it's just faster and easier but the outcome is the same: people avoiding certain dungeons for faster rewards.

People complaining about being ditched in dungeons they want to force other to complete, would still be ditched without the possibility of porting to another dungeon, even though this is a behavior that I do not recommend nor practice (during this event i've even done Imperial City Prison).

Blame ZOS for the event rewards being on a 20 hours timer, which force players to careful planning from one day to the next, and don't give room to spend more time in more difficult dungeons without messing the timer for the whole event.

tonemd

Arciris wrote: »

Bans are not going to happen because there is no reason to ban people for this.

If players couldn't port directly to another dungeon, players would just drop the unwanted dungeon, log into another character and try their luck again.

Or, like last year, have a level 10-15 group leader queue for the easiest dungeons.

Either way, people will still choose the path of least resistance.

This year it's just faster and easier but the outcome is the same: people avoiding certain dungeons for faster rewards.

People complaining about being ditched in dungeons they want to force other to complete, would still be ditched without the possibility of porting to another dungeon, even though this is a behavior that I do not recommend nor practice (during this event i've even done Imperial City Prison).

Blame ZOS for the event rewards being on a 20 hours timer, which force players to careful planning from one day to the next, and don't give room to spend more time in more difficult dungeons without messing the timer for the whole event.

So in short, people are awful and ZOS should have known better.

Global warming can't happen soon enough.

AlnilamE

LiquidPony wrote: »

Who cares?

The Random Daily Dungeon is super casual content. There are no leaderboards, achievements, titles, or even meaningful gear or rewards involved.

Stop worrying about what other people do with their time.

Except if they are wasting your time because you queued for a specific dungeon and they ported to a different one, leaving you stuck in a group that is not doing the content you wanted to do.

Dawnblade

AlnilamE wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Who cares?

The Random Daily Dungeon is super casual content. There are no leaderboards, achievements, titles, or even meaningful gear or rewards involved.

Stop worrying about what other people do with their time.

Except if they are wasting your time because you queued for a specific dungeon and they ported to a different one, leaving you stuck in a group that is not doing the content you wanted to do.

As opposed to no one showing up because no one queued, or getting a pop only to have half the group drop at the start, or the other three deciding you are the one that will be a drag on the group - and kicking you?

Sorry but if players do not want to run a certain dungeon, or don't want to run it with you, they won't.

This 'problem' of groups abandoning whatever dungeon they don't want to run and moving to something like FG1 is all on ZOS.

They are the ones that put content with widely different difficulties and time commitments together in one 'random' queue, then ran an event which encourages players to run all of their characters through for a chance at a prize.

BlazingDynamo

Sweet public service announcement! Thanks dude had no idea this was a thing lol will start doing this tonight

Bouldercleave

Why even bothering to group? FG1 is easily soloable. Just hammer it out - takes a minute or two longer, but can be done.

AlnilamE

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Why even bothering to group? FG1 is easily soloable. Just hammer it out - takes a minute or two longer, but can be done.

If you don't use the dungeon finder, you don't get the reward box.

Dawnblade wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Who cares?

The Random Daily Dungeon is super casual content. There are no leaderboards, achievements, titles, or even meaningful gear or rewards involved.

Stop worrying about what other people do with their time.

Except if they are wasting your time because you queued for a specific dungeon and they ported to a different one, leaving you stuck in a group that is not doing the content you wanted to do.

As opposed to no one showing up because no one queued, or getting a pop only to have half the group drop at the start, or the other three deciding you are the one that will be a drag on the group - and kicking you?

Sorry but if players do not want to run a certain dungeon, or don't want to run it with you, they won't.

This 'problem' of groups abandoning whatever dungeon they don't want to run and moving to something like FG1 is all on ZOS.

They are the ones that put content with widely different difficulties and time commitments together in one 'random' queue, then ran an event which encourages players to run all of their characters through for a chance at a prize.

Yeah, as Caius suggested a few pages ago, they should limit it to one box per day per account next year.

Arciris

AlnilamE wrote: »

Yeah, as Caius suggested a few pages ago, they should limit it to one box per day per account next year.

That wouldn't solve a thing, people are not going to run dungeons they don't want to run with PUGs.
I don't see how this seems so difficult to understand.

It would just make the event miserable as in feeling really cheap and not even worth the "event" name.

I understand that some people are salty because the boxes are ruining their market or because they don't get the carries they want.
But an event is meant to be a "party", you want all kinds of drinks and foods on the table, not a meager raisin.

MerlinPendragon

Leave dungeon finder mechanics alone.

karekiz

Hey guys. Why don't you just ask ZoS to adjust the event next year to I don't know.....

Say based on what the pledges are each day. Win win right?

Mr_Walker

AlnilamE wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Who cares?

The Random Daily Dungeon is super casual content. There are no leaderboards, achievements, titles, or even meaningful gear or rewards involved.

Stop worrying about what other people do with their time.

Except if they are wasting your time because you queued for a specific dungeon and they ported to a different one, leaving you stuck in a group that is not doing the content you wanted to do.

At least it's FG, so it's quick content you didn't want to do.

praxis

MasterSpatula wrote: »

People want the rewards without taking the risk they’re being rewarded for. Disappointing.

It's disappointing that my "risk" is higher because I sub or own dungeon dlc. Why should I have to carry some lvl 45 heroes through Moon Hunter Keep because I pay money, when Joe Freebie gets the same event rewards in less time doing easier content?

doc_ketamine

karekiz wrote: »

Hey guys. Why don't you just ask ZoS to adjust the event next year to I don't know.....

Say based on what the pledges are each day. Win win right?

Then people with toons under level 45 get no loot. Sorry, ZOS won't do that.

Aurielle

Acrolas wrote: »

I think the main issue is that this method permits you to take a shortcut within a shortcut, which seems like an unfair way to get not only the reward box, but the bonus experience and supplies.

If FG1 didn't have such an obvious shortcut, I might feel differently. But there's definitely intent here to expedite the process beyond what would be, perhaps, a reasonable expectation.

It would be “unfair” if only certain players alone (say, for arguments’ sake, ESO plus players) were able to port to FG1 and successfully earn rewards. That’s not the case, though. Anyone can do it. What’s the difference between randomly getting FG1 and completing the dungeon in four minutes, and deliberately porting into FG1 from a DLC dungeon? If anything, the fact that we CAN port to an easy dungeon to get it done quickly is arguably more equitable than relying on dungeon finder RNG. Would it be “fair” if a low CP player queued as DPS for 45 minutes, and then saw the splash screen for March of Sacrifices, knowing that they’d likely either get kicked from the dungeon for being low CP or never manage to finish it because people tend to get frustrated and leave when they can’t melt everything and ignore mechanics? Porting to easy dungeons allows more players to have a better shot at getting event rewards and tickets. If ZOS takes that away, then everyone is at the inherently unfair mercy of dungeon finder RNG, which seems heavily skewed towards popping DLC dungeons.

LemonSquishie

Literally not an issue

Eliahnus

"Dawnblade wrote: »

Yeah, as Caius suggested a few pages ago, they should limit it to one box per day per account next year.

But in that case, with a longer event and higher chances of getting something better.

blacksghost

This event has brought out the worst in people.

Mureel

Acrolas wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

And for one week, so what? The rest of the time, please let’s at least face the reality of who is taking advantage of whom? Alternatively- the group could just vote kick the other and they could queue again.

I'll admit to having had to heal more frantically and excessively in an instance of Normal Spindleclutch One than I did in Normal White-Gold Tower during this event.

But using inexperienced players to justify a certain behavior doesn't alter the reality of either. I'm not going to call it an exploit because honestly I don't know the best word to unofficially describe the behavior. But if ZOS chooses to react and/or ban or even just patches in a wall of rocks, you can't blame the inexperienced players for the behavior or the consequences. It was a behavior you made a conscious choice to follow and repeat.

That goes for any behavior in the game. I can only do my best under the circumstances I'm in, and I cannot shift blame if a gray area is suddenly reinterpreted in absolutes. So always proceed with caution; perhaps too much rather than not enough.

Good then they should do the same.

As I’ve said already no less than 3 times: if the group goes, the group goes. At the end of the day, tough bones for the odd one out.

Mureel

Eliahnus wrote: »

"Dawnblade wrote: »

Yeah, as Caius suggested a few pages ago, they should limit it to one box per day per account next year.

But in that case, with a longer event and higher chances of getting something better.

Also in that case would be fine with me. Everyone knows the finders been popping far more than usual during the event.

How is it hard to see who ‘needs’ these random normals and who doesn’t?

I didn’t bring my tank through over 15x a day for 3 days for the luls. I did it to help people get their things.

The point is just that for one week people can relax and stop peeing their pants over not getting a carry through the dungeon of their choice just by queueing.

The rest of the time they get their way - so they can just maintain their cool for a few days, honestly.

HappyLittleTree

I always try the dungeon with the group but when i see there's no progress i ask if they like to do it instead.

D0PAMINE

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Swift_One wrote: »

The group finder is broken and this game is full of actual bugs....but this is your concern?

Yes. The rest of the world could be on fire, but if someone out there is getting an extra cookie they didn't deserve, OP is on the case.

But this isn't even an extra cookie. its like finding a random cookie dispenser and figuring out a way to get chocolate chip because you don't like raisins. Doesn't effect anyone else, doesn't decrease the amount of chocolate chip cookies dispensed. It just gives you a preference.

OP prefers using the machine as he believes it was intended and, beyond that, and wants YOU to take your raisin cookie and enjoy it!!! He's going to complain to the manufacturer until everyone is forced to eat raisins. Then the world will be a better place.

That was funny af

MrGraves

Honestly I don't think players should get banned for using the exploit itself. Bad behaviour with it... maybe a temp ban. If a whole group agrees to do it I don't have an issue with that. I do have an issue with people just automatically porting into it without a word and being rude to everyone else in their party and completing it without the group.

However the "trick" should definitely be fixed in my opinion. Alternatively maybe ZOS should allow people to be able to use queue for specific dungeon as well. Or just a "Kill the last boss and you get the box as loot" deal.


The main reason I dont think people should be punished for the act ITSELF is that there's a lot of new people in this that kinda just get roped in as well as just. People who are outnumbered in a group of people that all want to do it etc. Also the DLC dungeons being an option when people are playing their really crappy alts that have bad gear... Yeah I get why people will port to an easier dungeon as an alternative. or even as a time saver especially with the broken group finder tool.

The trick should be removed but the event overall should be improved to be well. Fun. Honestly I dont mind these events being grindy, but this is just plain not fun when you have to deal with these people ruining it like this.