Other than players I already trusted to have solid, grounded opinions...

adeptusminor

I primarily do vet trials and pug vet pledges and with a good healer I won't even slot a shield in most cases. Like several other people mentioned a majority of things that kill dps are 1 shot mechanics, so a shield isn't useful in those instances. If I'm running with healers I don't know or trust? Yes I slot a shield. If they nerf shields all it's going to do is make it tougher for new healers or healers who aren't at the top of their game and I could see it causing animosity in runs where healers get crapped on (even more) if a dps dies.

The times where I am more or less forced to slot a shield (going bottom in vCR, running in vMoL) harness magicka is a lifesaver and no buffs to healers would make a difference and any nerfs to the shield would just make it a massive pain.

TL:DR; IMO, shields offer a buffer to healers that actually make their lives a little bit easier and any nerf to them isn't going to make healers more wanted, it's just going punish new healers starting out and learning, while not making much of a difference for experienced healers.

idk

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

@NightbladeMechanics

Thank you for your insight and clearing this up.

Food for thought. If a developers brings that up but it is added to the notes as it was it appears to be coming from you guys. It does weight on the credibility of the group and the process.

code65536

idk wrote: »

Food for thought. If a developers brings that up but it is added to the notes as it was it appears to be coming from you guys. It does weight on the credibility of the group and the process.

@idk It seemed pretty clear to me that it was coming from ZOS. It was under a section titled "ZOS’s high-level goals and things actively being worked on for update 20".

idk

code65536 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Food for thought. If a developers brings that up but it is added to the notes as it was it appears to be coming from you guys. It does weight on the credibility of the group and the process.

@idk It seemed pretty clear to me that it was coming from ZOS. It was under a section titled "ZOS’s high-level goals and things actively being worked on for update 20".

Thank you for that thought. I had taken that statement to be Zos' goals and ideas that had come from the class representative process.

Part of that has come from seeing so many threads created by class reps asking for feedback that some of the ideas came from that. My mistake.

DanteYoda

I think this thread is unfair...

I don't think its the reps fault we are getting these nerfs, i think its more Zos only listens to Zos.. Especially certain balance devs with their own agendas.. The poor reps are trying their best to do what they know, which imo is limited to mostly meta obsessions on some of them, they do their best, but they are screaming into the wind at this point.

That said i really do not believe its the reps faults, its Zos's fault and they will not listen to anyone but themselves.. Sad imo.

ADarklore

Astrid_V wrote: »

I also hope that @ZOS_Wrobel is aware that harness magicka and other shields are used in content where not always we can have a healer to help us (solo overland bosses, vMA, solo PvP etc) so nerfing shields will hurt solo players.

^THIS! It's annoying hearing people talk solely about the content THEY play without giving consideration to all the other content that other people play. As a solo quester who does not do PvP or 'end game' dungeons or content, I do not want to see my self-healing or shields diminished simply because some players are feeling underutilized in content that is a minority in this game anyway. Thankfully ZOS even stated they have to be careful when making adjustments as to not ruin other types of content... including content for solo players, casual players, and new players.

max_only

Only one of my characters use Harness Magicka. My mag temp healer.

Please please please don’t touch this. This skill does not need to be “balanced”.

Waffennacht

So....

You're saying I should prepare to lose Shields?

NightbladeMechanics

Mureel wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Glad to read this!

I won't go on about Wrobel then, all the above notwithstanding, I like the rest of the game and don't feel like being banned.

How'd it even get in the Class Rep notes then though?

He mentioned it, it was discussed, so it went into the notes. The notes are sacred. Everything we talk about goes into the notes, and nothing we don't talk about goes into the notes.

AbysmalGhul

What exactly are they doing to shields?

NightbladeMechanics

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

From my perspective, and this one someone mentioned already as a reply to a post of a different kind, the problem is the design of the dungeons.

I think many of the dungeons were made without the CP in mind, and to simply blame this on the CP is to condone the laziness of the developers to really design dungeons based on the diversity their system is trying to promote. I love the CP system, it can be a source of creativity for some. I noticed that it was only with the DLC dungeons that the devs are considering the CP. The devs need to overhaul the older and regular dungeons because they tend to be a walk in the park now that the CP system looks like it's going to overpower us some more.

These older dungeons are designed with Damage Dealers always in the privileged spot. This must change. This is why Tanks and Healers are considered side dishes with the sole aim of supporting the Damage Dealers. And this is also the reason why a party of Damage Dealers with decent health sustain can beat most if not all of the older dungeons.

Most of the changes I see at the moment have been on the side of the character (thus the nerf hammer's monthly job) and not on the environment where the characters are contextualized. I cannot speak for the new DLC dungeons on vet, but seldom do we see the effectiveness of a very powerful healer (not the support-only kind) because the dungeon is designed not to highlight the heals but the damage done. Tanks just hold the position, throw some support here and there, and that's just it.

As for trials, veteran Cloudrest and Asylum appears to be moving to a right direction. Anyone going in there thinking this is just going to be a DPS show, may find themselves in shock. But these are not enough. The devs should review the three roles in relation to dungeon and trial mechanics. The function of the Tanks and Healers should be given highlight, not as mere support to the Damage Dealers. More mechanics please instead of the nerf this or nerf that.

All of the dungeons prior to Imperial City patch were designed prior to CP even existing, and certainly prior to the current rendition of CP (it has been reworked a couple of times itself). Our meeting notes have mentioned making healers more relevant through multiple cycles now, and you even cite newer content as moving in the right direction with mechanics which cannot be avoided via a dps race.

NightbladeMechanics

DuskMarine wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

@NightbladeMechanics the main thing about it that power creep needs to happen is litterally the dps races. sure avoiding mechanics is a issue but some of the mechanics you have to deal with while also dealing with a dps race as well. cp is something that honestly needs replaced with a brand new system. but making healers less relevant that isnt the mechanics its the dps races that make healers less relevant. even you have to admit do you need a healer in a dps race if you can keep yourself up well on your own while still doing dps? im not badmouthing class reps at all but you guys cant do anything because zos will do the opposite of what yall say its a program that was never gonna come to anything. as long as wrobels at zos well never see this game get better.

Power creep enables faster dps races, which in turn avoid mechanics.

And have you seen the patch notes? We've gotten so much awesome stuff done. Just because you're dissatisfied with a few issues doesn't mean the program hasn't "come to anything." I guess I see their receptiveness and work more from my position than you all can from outside, but trust me. They're trying. I'll reserve my final judgment for Update 20. That's the first update where they'll have had the time to undertake larger reworks.

capper123

i dont use a shield on my healer and if you can take less damage better for me lol.

Lasinagol

End game trial healing is brutal at best...dungeon vet...dpends on the team.

My tank never went anywhere without a healer until I got Plague doctor...that is while learning. Plenty of pugs need a healer to stay alive. Even came accross several world bosses where everyone was running around because they would die even with their shields. Healer shows up and they finally kill the boss.

Maybe it is the dps's fualt...they should just not slot their heal/shield in liue of another damaging skill. Afterall..the tank is supposed to be the one taking damage >_<

Zardayne

Troneon wrote: »

They nerfed magplars into the ground for years now....dps is king and nothing else...

Oh but shields are the problem....yeah maybe only on magsorcs...

Wrobel logic....

This is it right here. This game is all about DPS. You don't need CC (for pve) or dedicated heals in most aspects of the game. It's pretty sad actually.

LadyNalcarya

This just shows how clueless some of the devs are. I mean, I dont have anything against them as people, but it's not the first time when they offer a completely unrelated (or even harmful) "solution". It's like when they claimed that Sload's set was supposed to counter tanks. Now it seems like they just tried to adress "nerfsorcs" threads without paying too much attention.
As long as this is the case... Class reps, regardless of their skills, are between a rock and a hard place.

That being said, current state of healers annoys me to no end. I also want to collect achievements on my main, but on the other hand, it feels kinda wrong to ask people to take her along just so I can have the achievements. All I can offer as a healer is a less bumpy ride so to speak (resource sustain, buffs, heals), but the ability to clear everything faster and skip mechanics seems to outweight that.
Speaking of dps, there's also a really huge gap between average dds and top dds. Average dps seems to stay pretty much at the same level as before, while top dds keep pushing the limits with every patch. Dont get me wrong, I'm not blaming those players or anything, it's ZOS design flaws that cause such a huge disparity. The content is much harder for 2 average dds, with all the oneshot mechanics and stuff, so naturally they want a solution to this. Replacing a healer with another dd is a solution, because a decent average dd or tank can sustain their resources without a healer. The Archivist boss in Moon Hunter Keep is a good example of this, with high enough dps you wont see half of the mechanics, and it's much more difficult when you cant do that. I mean, it makes sense that the content is easier for better players, but in ESO it's getting ridiculous. I honestly dont get why ZOS continues to push content where dps is the king, even though they keep saying that they acknowledge the issue.

Mureel

jabrone77 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

i run trials on a regular basis and if you dont have a healer in those your squad is doing some very strange illegal crap or their sacrificing some stuff somewhere. but you definitely need healers in trials thats a nonnegotiable idea.

That's the thing. My main concern as feeling useless as a healer is outside of trials, or to put it another way, 90% of the rest of group content.
Are healers needed for trials? Of course....
Other parts of the game? Not so much.... therein lies the issue...

It's not just about trial healing...

This is 100% the point!

Mureel

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

This just shows how clueless some of the devs are. I mean, I dont have anything against them as people, but it's not the first time when they offer a completely unrelated (or even harmful) "solution". It's like when they claimed that Sload's set was supposed to counter tanks. Now it seems like they just tried to adress "nerfsorcs" threads without paying too much attention.
As long as this is the case... Class reps, regardless of their skills, are between a rock and a hard place.

That being said, current state of healers annoys me to no end. I also want to collect achievements on my main, but on the other hand, it feels kinda wrong to ask people to take her along just so I can have the achievements. All I can offer as a healer is a less bumpy ride so to speak (resource sustain, buffs, heals), but the ability to clear everything faster and skip mechanics seems to outweight that.
Speaking of dps, there's also a really huge gap between average dds and top dds. Average dps seems to stay pretty much at the same level as before, while top dds keep pushing the limits with every patch. Dont get me wrong, I'm not blaming those players or anything, it's ZOS design flaws that cause such a huge disparity. The content is much harder for 2 average dds, with all the oneshot mechanics and stuff, so naturally they want a solution to this. Replacing a healer with another dd is a solution, because a decent average dd or tank can sustain their resources without a healer. The Archivist boss in Moon Hunter Keep is a good example of this, with high enough dps you wont see half of the mechanics, and it's much more difficult when you cant do that. I mean, it makes sense that the content is easier for better players, but in ESO it's getting ridiculous. I honestly dont get why ZOS continues to push content where dps is the king, even though they keep saying that they acknowledge the issue.

Yep perfectly said! We're legit ironing archivist down from after 1 rune/colour phase. I stack everything on boss and taunt new adds as they come and that's it. It's over.

code65536

Mureel wrote: »

Yep perfectly said! We're legit ironing archivist down from after 1 rune/colour phase. I stack everything on boss and taunt new adds as they come and that's it. It's over.

A little off-topic, but you can skip the rune phases entirely. That faint red circle around the Archivist? It enrages anyone inside it, which is why you don't want any adds near him. But it enrages you too. So it's like that blue circle on the Warrior fight in HRC. What we do is have the tank taunt the initial two adds and just hold them away, to keep them outside the circle--we just ignore them. We run up and stand in the Archivist's circle and just burn. We hold our destros for when the next adds spawn--they'll run up to the Archivist and melt in the destros.

Mureel

code65536 wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Yep perfectly said! We're legit ironing archivist down from after 1 rune/colour phase. I stack everything on boss and taunt new adds as they come and that's it. It's over.

A little off-topic, but you can skip the rune phases entirely. That faint red circle around the Archivist? It enrages anyone inside it, which is why you don't want any adds near him. But it enrages you too. So it's like that blue circle on the Warrior fight in HRC. What we do is have the tank taunt the initial two adds and just hold them away, to keep them outside the circle--we just ignore them. We run up and stand in the Archivist's circle and just burn. We hold our destros for when the next adds spawn--they'll run up to the Archivist and melt in the destros.

@code65366
Ooh I'll tell my team that! Thanks! ❤️

We're doing pretty much same, after 1st set (starting set) of adds. This will be even better!

Mureel

code65536 wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

Healers are very much needed in trials. Cloudrest may be the most healing-intensive trial (vHoF is a close second), but every raid group goes into every trial with two healers. Even in Asylum, the healers play very important roles. Their problem in Asylum is that their roles are very different and not that focused on healing, but they are still important to the handling of the mechanics.

There's no shortage of healers in the trials guild that I'm in.

It's 4-man content where the necessity of healers are sometimes called into question, and I personally fault that on the content design. Unavoidable ambient damage is a great way to force people to require healers. So take, for example, vMoS HM. In its original form during the first two weeks of PTS, the fireballs were undodgeable, which meant that the fire DoT was unavoidable. On top of that, the fire DoT had more ticks and ticked harder. The end result was that we ran that place with what we jokingly called 1 tank and 3 healers. We had a tank, a full-time healer, and both DDs ran resto staves on our back bars with mutagen and resto ult.

Now, vMoS HM in that original early-PTS form was pretty cancerous and they've since nerfed it a lot (but it's still very hard, as evidenced by the devs' 14 wipes there in last night's ESO Live), but I still feel most comfortable running with a full-time healer on that fight, because even though the fireballs are now dodgeable, you'd sometimes miss a dodge or run out of stam to dodge, and there is still enough ambient damage there that I can feel the difference between having heals and relying solely on myself for survival (we cleared vMoS HM several times--most of the time, we went with a healer, and those times, it took us only 1-4 pulls to clear HM, and the one time we did it with no healer, we wiped about 10 times before we got it).

If content was designed more like vMoS HM rather than vSCP HM, we'd see more demand for healers. (I should clarify: I think vMoS HM is overtuned, but that's because of the stranglers that can grapple you from a huge distance and that you can't escape from without the help of an ally; Rich Lambert's "f*** you, strangler!" outburst last night is something we've all uttered countless times. But I do like that vMoS HM favors having a healer.)

That said, even in content where healers aren't "needed" like Scalecaller, I don't mind having a healer along. It's nice to have sustain from orbs. It's nice to not worry about Ele Drain. It's nice to know that I'm being taken care of and that I don't have to be as careful with my health. When I got the Mountain God achievement, it was with a healer in the group, and I always enjoy having her in dungeon runs, even if we could go slightly faster if it was 3x DD. I mean, I don't really care about shaving a few minutes off a dungeon run, and being pampered by a healer definitely feels nice. I've never turned down a healer because I would've preferred a DD instead, and most of the people that I play with feel the same way.

@code65536 (been using your name so much lately, feel like I need to ask if you'll be my bridesmaid!! Lol!)
Exactly- my guys will bring my healer - but tbh (speaking only of 4 man DLC HMs really) they just don't need to, and is easier - in the majority of their opinions, if they don't.

None of my issue is at all with trials.

I'm 'taken' to the point where I really haven't the time or inclination to join another 'core' raid. 2 stable core groups and 1-2 fill ins a week, is my average - so I feel blessed to get to play and have a good time with good people!

It's more regardling DLCs where it's become a non issue just to go with DPS. Especially Fang Lair and SCP. (HMs)

Vahrokh

Waffennacht wrote: »

So....

You're saying I should prepare to lose Shields?

Well, it's the only thing left to sorcs. Hence, be READY to lose them.

Gythral

Clearly there is no point in the class reps if 1 man is going to continue doing what HE wants and ignoring any feedback from the community via said class reps

Clearly the discussions show that buffing most classes and roles is a must instead nerfing the only reason some are used seems to be on the cards

Mureel

DanteYoda wrote: »

I think this thread is unfair...

I don't think its the reps fault we are getting these nerfs, i think its more Zos only listens to Zos.. Especially certain balance devs with their own agendas.. The poor reps are trying their best to do what they know, which imo is limited to mostly meta obsessions on some of them, they do their best, but they are screaming into the wind at this point.

That said i really do not believe its the reps faults, its Zos's fault and they will not listen to anyone but themselves.. Sad imo.

Yeah sorry! My issue is that the program itself seems pointless if ZOS just doesn't care.

I meant that I haven't lost faith in the players I already knew to 'know their business' but the program itself, has left me feeling like it's pointless.

Someone posted earlier to have patience and wait for update 20, which I think is fair advice.

So I'll do that.

It's not as if I'm rage quitting or anything; I just think that it's the same weird stuff going down, only now it's even more obvious because I know darned well that no one ever said healers feel anything regarding shields. (FFS! Just writing that literally triggers me! It is so damned stupid!)

I'm gonna reel my neck in and go as advised; and await update 20.

Then we will see.

Mureel

ADarklore wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

I also hope that @ZOS_Wrobel is aware that harness magicka and other shields are used in content where not always we can have a healer to help us (solo overland bosses, vMA, solo PvP etc) so nerfing shields will hurt solo players.

^THIS! It's annoying hearing people talk solely about the content THEY play without giving consideration to all the other content that other people play. As a solo quester who does not do PvP or 'end game' dungeons or content, I do not want to see my self-healing or shields diminished simply because some players are feeling underutilized in content that is a minority in this game anyway. Thankfully ZOS even stated they have to be careful when making adjustments as to not ruin other types of content... including content for solo players, casual players, and new players.

@ADarklore
That's fair enough. I'm really sorry that this is annoying for you.

You're right, it should be handled in a way that is fair. I think that way, is rethinking how they make group dungeons.

Have a good day!

Somewhere

I think one shot mechanics are good to have sparingly, but I'd rather see more of them replaced with something that simply drops your health to 1 or some pre-determined low value. You know, if you get hit by this big 1 shot and you've got a bunch of ads hitting you, you're still going to die anyway. But I feel it's less gimmicky, especially because a good healer would still be able to save you if you make a mistake.

generalmyrick

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

this captures how i feel nicely.

Runefang

Shout to @Tasear for being an awesome healer rep by the way

And the fact that they lay the blame at anything other than poor dungeon design is frustrating. All trials run with 2 healers to this day, apparently shields haven't stopped them being relevant there. Also stam dps haven't got a shield, are we going to nerf their vigor now too?

By the way if they want to make healers relevant just give all players a 0.5k oblivion damage dot in all dungeons

LadyNalcarya

Somewhere wrote: »

I think one shot mechanics are good to have sparingly, but I'd rather see more of them replaced with something that simply drops your health to 1 or some pre-determined low value. You know, if you get hit by this big 1 shot and you've got a bunch of ads hitting you, you're still going to die anyway. But I feel it's less gimmicky, especially because a good healer would still be able to save you if you make a mistake.

True. Actually there are games that are considered to be difficult even though they dont rely on oneshots.
Like Dark Souls, for example. It might sound weird, but when I did my latest lvl 1 run, I've only encountered one boss attack that had little to no telegraph and could potentially oneshot (Oceiros' charge attack). The rest of oneshotting moves are telegraphed from a mile away, and you can survive a lot even as a level one char if you have a good rings/armor setup. I really like this approach to difficulty: it might be nearly impossible if you just try to faceroll it, but if you pay attention to your surroundings and boss mechanics, you can clear the game even without leveling (and there are harder challenge runs, such as level 1 + no roll run, clearing the game without taking damage, etc).
I agree that sometimes oneshot mechanics make sense and can be done well (like backyard in vMoL or crystals in vCR), but overabundance of oneshot mechanics forces people to seek the ways to skip them.

AbysmalGhul

Somewhere wrote: »

I think one shot mechanics are good to have sparingly, but I'd rather see more of them replaced with something that simply drops your health to 1 or some pre-determined low value. You know, if you get hit by this big 1 shot and you've got a bunch of ads hitting you, you're still going to die anyway. But I feel it's less gimmicky, especially because a good healer would still be able to save you if you make a mistake.

I like the idea, but mechanics like that in ESO wouldn't work. Due to the increasing lag and latency every patch drop, I noticed the mechanics in dungeons have been lagging and glitching a lot. While I can complete harder content like Scalecaller and Fang lair, I'm unable to get the no death runs because of glitchy mechanics.