Other than players I already trusted to have solid, grounded opinions...

Mureel

I've just given up on this class rep thing.

I feel disappointed and let down immensely.

I never asked for any nerfs.

I've rolled with the punches over the years.

I've watched my class skills be nerfed or ruined just to be handed out with abandon to other classes and every time I've just decided to handle it and overcome, as you do.

I've watched sets be nerfed or utterly changed for no real reason and literally never have I felt this shocked, surprised and dumbfounded as I did when I saw this:

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers

This tells me one thing only: That our issues with healers and being opted out of for a 3rd DPS because of reasons I've explained, and seen explained by others several times, were summarily ignored.

What is even the point if from 'Dungeons damage is easily mitigated by DPS or a One Shot thing' we get 'Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers'

How is this even remotely in the same reality as what the issues even are?

PVPers are all stacking shields blah blah - but that's on one class, in PVP.

It just has nothing to do with healers and the state of PVE in the game.

I'm really just at the end of it with this class rep thing insofar as healers go.

I'm just done.

I have no faith in this system, to be able to aid PVE healers to be more useful in end game other than trials.

For the ones who argue that they bring healers: Yes, people would bring me too. The point is that they just no longer really *need* to.

For combat prayer, ele drain and *insert all other buffs/debuffs here* and resources, sure, a nice bonus - but a 3rd DPS, esp if you have a magblade for interrupts and built in heals, and 2 Stam DPS, literally makes even those things unnecessary through sheer built in self heals through funnel and vigor, and sheer power over DPS being so strong now. There are even people hitting over 50-60k.

3 dps make most content EZ mode. Period.

As far as I'm concerned, except in less proficient groups (pugs and social/trade guild group ventures into vet dungeons), and trials, in ESO, healers are relics of the past.

That's it and that's that.

If you play one, you too should get used to the idea that as your groups get better, your usefulness will decline, other than in scenarios outlined above.

I was hoping that someone would go 'DING! Oh yeah! To keep up with the overtuned DPS we've made possible, we did X with dungeons, but that only makes things more appropriate for the overtuned DPS we made possible, but we never once considered how it would affect a whole chunk of our player base!'

Sure, I guess I could drag her out 2x a week for trials, and do the odd 'pity heal' for random groups asking in zone - but other than that, I'm now playing other classes.

I'm just not one for being brought as a 'favour' for HMs, when I was there for the other 3/4 of the achievement, and I wasn't all like 'you're welcome!'

It's so awesome to have to redo 3/4 of things on my tank or DPS, because Healers Need Not Apply (now that we have our clears and learned mechanics, and got our no deaths!). I love it!

Seriously. Whoever is representing healers in the class rep system just do not have their fingers on the pulse of End Game and how it works now, at all.

It's all well and good to be able to toss heals around- but that's not all of it at all, and the rest of it has nothing to do with shields!

:-( Seriously.

NightbladeMechanics

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Mureel

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Glad to read this!

I won't go on about Wrobel then, all the above notwithstanding, I like the rest of the game and don't feel like being banned.

How'd it even get in the Class Rep notes then though?

AlienatedGoat

I mean, did they even think about the fact that healers rely on Harness Magicka/Conjured Ward also?

If you nerf shields, you're also nerfing healers and their defensive ability. How is that good for the game?

Mureel

Phage wrote: »

I mean, did they even think about the fact that healers rely on Harness Magicka/Conjured Ward also?

If you nerf shields, you're also nerfing healers and their defensive ability. How is that good for the game?

Exactly - but it makes me so *snip* that I cannot even go there, even for positive reasons. I'm just over it, literally.

Lol at least if we're no longer needed outside a bare few instances, then who gives a darn if our shields are nerfed xD

Smh.

TheInfernalRage

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

From my perspective, and this one someone mentioned already as a reply to a post of a different kind, the problem is the design of the dungeons.

I think many of the dungeons were made without the CP in mind, and to simply blame this on the CP is to condone the laziness of the developers to really design dungeons based on the diversity their system is trying to promote. I love the CP system, it can be a source of creativity for some. I noticed that it was only with the DLC dungeons that the devs are considering the CP. The devs need to overhaul the older and regular dungeons because they tend to be a walk in the park now that the CP system looks like it's going to overpower us some more.

These older dungeons are designed with Damage Dealers always in the privileged spot. This must change. This is why Tanks and Healers are considered side dishes with the sole aim of supporting the Damage Dealers. And this is also the reason why a party of Damage Dealers with decent health sustain can beat most if not all of the older dungeons.

Most of the changes I see at the moment have been on the side of the character (thus the nerf hammer's monthly job) and not on the environment where the characters are contextualized. I cannot speak for the new DLC dungeons on vet, but seldom do we see the effectiveness of a very powerful healer (not the support-only kind) because the dungeon is designed not to highlight the heals but the damage done. Tanks just hold the position, throw some support here and there, and that's just it.

As for trials, veteran Cloudrest and Asylum appears to be moving to a right direction. Anyone going in there thinking this is just going to be a DPS show, may find themselves in shock. But these are not enough. The devs should review the three roles in relation to dungeon and trial mechanics. The function of the Tanks and Healers should be given highlight, not as mere support to the Damage Dealers. More mechanics please instead of the nerf this or nerf that.

Aliyavana

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

From my perspective, and this one someone mentioned already as a reply to a post of a different kind, the problem is the design of the dungeons.

I think many of the dungeons were made without the CP in mind, and to simply blame this on the CP is to condone the laziness of the developers to really design dungeons based on the diversity their system is trying to promote. I love the CP system, it can be a source of creativity for some. I noticed that it was only with the DLC dungeons that the devs are considering the CP. The devs need to overhaul the older and regular dungeons because they tend to be a walk in the park now that the CP system looks like it's going to overpower us some more.

These older dungeons are designed with Damage Dealers always in the privileged spot. This must change. This is why Tanks and Healers are considered side dishes with the sole aim of supporting the Damage Dealers. And this is also the reason why a party of Damage Dealers with decent health sustain can beat most if not all of the older dungeons.

Most of the changes I see at the moment have been on the side of the character (thus the nerf hammer's monthly job) and not on the environment where the characters are contextualized. I cannot speak for the new DLC dungeons on vet, but seldom do we see the effectiveness of a very powerful healer (not the support-only kind) because the dungeon is designed not to highlight the heals but the damage done. Tanks just hold the position, throw some support here and there, and that's just it.

As for trials, veteran Cloudrest and Asylum appears to be moving to a right direction. Anyone going in there thinking this is just going to be a DPS show, may find themselves in shock. But these are not enough. The devs should review the three roles in relation to dungeon and trial mechanics. The function of the Tanks and Healers should be given highlight, not as mere support to the Damage Dealers. More mechanics please instead of the nerf this or nerf that.

Cp just needs to be replaced entirely

Marabornwingrion

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

I think Wrobel don't care what you said and he will do what he wants anyway

Emmagoldman

even if not replaced, more branches with higher costs. I also think continually raising it is pointless

Kel

I brought this up in the healer discord, but I'll repeat it here as it seems appropriate to this thread...

As someone who's new to eso healing, I have to say this conversation is downright depressing. I got into healing to, you know, heal....not be some bard throwing out support skills.
I understand...it is what it is in this game. Still, not exactly what I wanted to sign up for....

I know because the way this game is set up, the traditional trinity roles are somewhat blurred. I also understand that without reliable self heals, things like vMA and even Cyrodiil would be a nightmare.
But there has to be a way to make healing relevant and needed. Not only in trials, but any group content.
I'm no designer or content creator, so I have no solution to how those things can be achieved when Zos has painted healing into a corner, pretty much.

I can't find any fault with Tasear though...she's doing what she can. Not her fault if Zos and Worbal choose to ignore her feedback... which is usually our feedback since she gets her ideas directly from us.

Mureel

jabrone77 wrote: »

I brought this up in the healer discord, but I'll repeat it here as it seems appropriate to this thread...

As someone who's new to eso healing, I have to say this conversation is downright depressing. I got into healing to, you know, heal....not be some bard throwing out support skills.
I understand...it is what it is in this game. Still, not exactly what I wanted to sign up for....

I know because the way this game is set up, the traditional trinity roles are somewhat blurred. I also understand that without reliable self heals, things like vMA and even Cyrodiil would be a nightmare.
But there has to be a way to make healing relevant and needed.
I'm no designer or content creator, so I have no solution to how those things can be achieved when Zos has painted healing into a corner, pretty much.

I can't find any fault with Tasear though...she's doing what she can. Not her fault if Zos and Worbal choose to ignore her feedback... which is usually our feedback since she gets her ideas directly from us.

@jabrone77
Furthermore - in 4 person content where the DPS is so strong; what need is there for resources and buffs when things are dead so fast as to skip things entirely?

Take even non HM vet Scalecaller: if the DPS is fast enough, they skip poison spray altogether, but even if it weren't? Poison spray is a legit one shot anyway.

Poison spray is not the name of the damage; but I'm on my phone - but it's the one where one of the 3 dragon statues makes a 1/3 of the fighting area instagib poison, that you have 1 second from green statue to death to walk (not roll dodge even, because how the game calculates your position) out of that area, and WELL out too, not just on the border, or you're dead.

Mureel

Or Vet Fang Lair? Other than people doing stupid things like standing in fungal aoe on the menagerie, like most people who kno what's up would never, what is there that's actually healable?

Sure you can buff the group and debuff things, but why bother with that, when 3 dps will focus the bear down before the cat can even pounce a 2nd time?

I mean who gives a crap if someone dies to cat if they can just Rez and go on, and still smash the boss before they have to face that mechanic again?

This is why healers get used and tossed away; because once the mechanics are learned and the no deaths ach is done (and many groups do this also without a healer), why hamper your chances at HMs when 3 dps can execute from 40% without a care?

code65536

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

Mureel

Even more awesome is this: Why not have 2x magblades slot Olorime and Siroria or other DPS set?

With olorime, all that need happen is a mark on the floor every so often and Boom! There's your Major Courage, done! Ele drain (essential) and combat prayer (essential) are destro/resto abilities. Orbs, for regen are Undaunted, and Purge is an alliance tree skill. So free for all!

Sure there's jorvulds for longer warhorn/Ele/CP but who gives a F, if you have magblades doing insane damage on one bar and can have 1-2 magblades slot warhorn, and just use it as it comes - problem solved. There's mending for a whole 2% more heals and a debuff for adds - so what? If the DPS is that fast, who cares if adds are slightly debuffed? Shoot, the 2 healblades can sap essence. It matters not.

I could go on with every set; but what's the point?

Then there's this:
So you wanna do damage on your maghealplar. Have FUN getting in melee range with the guys doing 40k+ minimum.

Non healing skills slotting magplars are already on the crapheap.

Will never happen. Also heal/buff sets have zero spell damage. You can use a glyph and replace your regen, and then not have enough to DPS meaningfully OR give resources back to your group.

You can take Mage over Atronach for bigger heals less often or you can take apprentice for more spell damage, a tiny bit, respectively, but to the detriment of both heal strength and regen.

To be honest though, were I a top tier raid leader, my healers would be magblades DPSing as much as possible, but with orbs (you can have many on the field at once, vs 1 shard, and every other shard overwrites the previous!), Ele, combat prayer and healing springs, wearing olorime and whatever damage set applicable.

Like for kiting in VAS +x Tank side, Akaviri dragonguard and IA! Proc the IA, cheaper ultis, catch ya meteors and DPS in between.

BOL is so nerfed and dumb now, I use the other morph because A. I'm only clutch healing when it's scary, so sub 75% health, and B. 60% magicka return.

If you really need to heal more than one that badly, hasty prayer. Job SO done.

Other than extended ritual- why even bother?

I can see a lot of plus points for Templar Healers - but probably not the same as others - because it's just changed that much.

All magblades all the time, to be honest, is the way of things future as it stands, Including trials. (Except as Code65366 points out, Cloudrest, which is heal intensive.)

Mureel

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

Yeah lol, at least we have VCR going for us xD (Wherein NBs are even swapping to refreshing path because owie!)

DuskMarine

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

@NightbladeMechanics the main thing about it that power creep needs to happen is litterally the dps races. sure avoiding mechanics is a issue but some of the mechanics you have to deal with while also dealing with a dps race as well. cp is something that honestly needs replaced with a brand new system. but making healers less relevant that isnt the mechanics its the dps races that make healers less relevant. even you have to admit do you need a healer in a dps race if you can keep yourself up well on your own while still doing dps? im not badmouthing class reps at all but you guys cant do anything because zos will do the opposite of what yall say its a program that was never gonna come to anything. as long as wrobels at zos well never see this game get better.

technohic

If that line bugs you; if anything, you should be glad the class reps were there to offer their input. Sounds like something we would have just been handed to deal with in the past.

Most of this complaining about class reps is really counter productive when people set expectations that the reps can directly change course. It’s just a feedback system that’s like focus groups some teams use; only here it’s pretty transparent and the more people complain; the more likely they go to the behind closed door traditional method.

Mureel

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

DuskMarine

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

i run trials on a regular basis and if you dont have a healer in those your squad is doing some very strange illegal crap or their sacrificing some stuff somewhere. but you definitely need healers in trials thats a nonnegotiable idea.

RedRook

I enjoy healing, but it doesn't bother me at all to flow with the situation. Sometimes lots of straight-up heals, sometimes buff and debuff and keeping people topped up, sometimes switching to DD myself. I have zero investment in the "trinity" and I don't care if it gets blurred, at all. I'm a lot more annoyed there are two distinct tiers of damage dealer, and some classes don't make it from the lower tier to the top tier even for a visit, patch after patch after patch.

But as for the class reps, consider it's pretty thankless work. Take a look at the pile of garbage they've had to wade through just on this forum, and then when they talk to ZOS, no matter how eloquently, are they heard? Ten percent? Five percent? The dev team has a vision (apparently) and they're going to do what they're going to do.

The reps have no power, only a little access and a sincere wish to improve the game. Whether I agree with them or not on any particular point, for that I have only respect.

Marabornwingrion

I also hope that @ZOS_Wrobel is aware that harness magicka and other shields are used in content where not always we can have a healer to help us (solo overland bosses, vMA, solo PvP etc) so nerfing shields will hurt solo players.

Cryptical

I disagree with the idea that it can be solved with more mechanics.

Adding timed or triggered mechanics doesn't spur healing, it spurs higher dps to skip them. There's two methods to overcome the mechanics of the giant matriarch - stop dps every 10% and kill the nereid, or take a third dps with off-heals along that will burst down the nereid while the 2 main dps burn her in under a minute. Same approach with vet doylemish - if you dps enough you skip some orbs. The timed disabling of the fang lair tiger spurs packing more dps into the time that the bear is not shielded. Zaan - if you dps hard enough you skip the random poison blasts and the zaan beam and the waves of fire and ONLY have to deal with the ice guy mechanic. Ulfnor/Sabina in fang lair - you must have enough dps to save your teammate, nothing else works. Plague concocter has a defined max dps burn built into the mechanics.

These dungeons have excellent tank-role mechanics. But that's because the theme dovetails with dishing out high dps. It's "How hard and fast can you punch" DPSing paired with the natural mate "How hard of a punch can you take on the chin" Tanking. Tank checks like plugging the lava spout or holding aggro on all 3 amalgams or multiple minotaurs, or holding doyle.

Mureel

technohic wrote: »

If that line bugs you; if anything, you should be glad the class reps were there to offer their input. Sounds like something we would have just been handed to deal with in the past.

Most of this complaining about class reps is really counter productive when people set expectations that the reps can directly change course. It’s just a feedback system that’s like focus groups some teams use; only here it’s pretty transparent and the more people complain; the more likely they go to the behind closed door traditional method.

Or: the more people see it who actually care and are concerned at the Class Rep system going away = the more who will make a stink regarding dumb ideas like shields having anything to do with healers.

I actually *want* the class reps to be angry on our behalf. We should be angry at this sort of misrepresentation, and so should they!

If they aren't annoyed at this kind of laughery- then they have no point in the first place.

The time of being nice all the time has passed. Things need doing and the class reps are meant to be addressing those things.

Being a class rep is a responsibility.

The one thing about the class reps I think I can trust, is that they know that too.

Mureel

DuskMarine wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

i run trials on a regular basis and if you dont have a healer in those your squad is doing some very strange illegal crap or their sacrificing some stuff somewhere. but you definitely need healers in trials thats a nonnegotiable idea.

So do I - all HM done but VCR.

However - who is to say said healers cannot be Magblades? Given that everything healers can do to help is on destro/resto/undaunted/alliance trees so free for all.

No one (and certainly not I!) said there needn't be healers.

What I said was that most groups and raids would actually be better off with a DPS/healer - over a traditional healer, especially a Templar.

Pops_ND_Irish

Huh ????

Jaimeh

When I'm playing with my healer toons, I want to do just that: heal (including buffing group mates, debuffing the boss, etc.)--I've spent a lot of time farming my gear and levelling my skills, and I want to use them, otherwise I would have logged with my DPS character. However, in groups with good DDs, healing simply feels redundant; the players know what they're doing, the mobs die fast, so other than buffs, a healer is just standing there, hence they might as well throw some damage skills. I'm personally not a very big fan of this, not because I mind hybrid roles (in fact they can be very useful in certain situations), but because I'm playing a given role because I enjoy it, and because I want to have a break from another role. And it's not only 1-shot fight mechanics that are pushing healers away, but also overlapping, 'gimmicky' mechanics. For example, the only way I could complete vetFL achievements was with a 3 DPS/1 tank team, because the Zoo fight in particular was a lot easier, than with a traditional configuration. That fight has a lot of overlapping mechanics, and although extra healing is definitely welcome, it's so much easier with 3 DPS, that it feels like a different fight altogether. It shouldn't be like that, and maybe it's normal for the older content, but I think newer content should be designed with a group composed of all roles in mind, so everybody can contribute, without feeling they are being carrried by the DPS. It's very disheartening that the amount of grinding healers and tanks have to do for gear (and for ablities--they need to unlock so many just to have on hand to use on specific fights) is so disproportionate to their needfulness in groups.

Beardimus

Ok, I'm biased as I main a sorc...

But it feels to me that they just reacting to forum noise.

Cage 4x nerf (granted it needed something), defense rune nerfed, indirect nerf to overload gank, nerf to execute...

All that was left on the regular NerfSorc bandwagon moans were wards. Feels like they wanna show action to Sate the haters.

I mean sure people hate on Streak too, Pets, Dark Conversion, etc but they really are bad players. Wards is def on the list.

Maybe they have a point. Trials lot have liked ward users a while. But it FEELS like a reaction to whines.

Kel

DuskMarine wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

i run trials on a regular basis and if you dont have a healer in those your squad is doing some very strange illegal crap or their sacrificing some stuff somewhere. but you definitely need healers in trials thats a nonnegotiable idea.

That's the thing. My main concern as feeling useless as a healer is outside of trials, or to put it another way, 90% of the rest of group content.
Are healers needed for trials? Of course....
Other parts of the game? Not so much.... therein lies the issue...

It's not just about trial healing...

Marabornwingrion

Beardimus wrote: »

Ok, I'm biased as I main a sorc...

But it feels to me that they just reacting to forum noise.

Cage 4x nerf (granted it needed something), defense rune nerfed, indirect nerf to overload gank, nerf to execute...

All that was left on the regular NerfSorc bandwagon moans were wards. Feels like they wanna show action to Sate the haters.

I mean sure people hate on Streak too, Pets, Dark Conversion, etc but they really are bad players. Wards is def on the list.

Maybe they have a point. Trials lot have liked ward users a while. But it FEELS like a reaction to whines.

Looks like this thread turned into "nerf sorc" thread -,-'

code65536

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

Healers are very much needed in trials. Cloudrest may be the most healing-intensive trial (vHoF is a close second), but every raid group goes into every trial with two healers. Even in Asylum, the healers play very important roles. Their problem in Asylum is that their roles are very different and not that focused on healing, but they are still important to the handling of the mechanics.

There's no shortage of healers in the trials guild that I'm in.

It's 4-man content where the necessity of healers are sometimes called into question, and I personally fault that on the content design. Unavoidable ambient damage is a great way to force people to require healers. So take, for example, vMoS HM. In its original form during the first two weeks of PTS, the fireballs were undodgeable, which meant that the fire DoT was unavoidable. On top of that, the fire DoT had more ticks and ticked harder. The end result was that we ran that place with what we jokingly called 1 tank and 3 healers. We had a tank, a full-time healer, and both DDs ran resto staves on our back bars with mutagen and resto ult.

Now, vMoS HM in that original early-PTS form was pretty cancerous and they've since nerfed it a lot (but it's still very hard, as evidenced by the devs' 14 wipes there in last night's ESO Live), but I still feel most comfortable running with a full-time healer on that fight, because even though the fireballs are now dodgeable, you'd sometimes miss a dodge or run out of stam to dodge, and there is still enough ambient damage there that I can feel the difference between having heals and relying solely on myself for survival (we cleared vMoS HM several times--most of the time, we went with a healer, and those times, it took us only 1-4 pulls to clear HM, and the one time we did it with no healer, we wiped about 10 times before we got it).

If content was designed more like vMoS HM rather than vSCP HM, we'd see more demand for healers. (I should clarify: I think vMoS HM is overtuned, but that's because of the stranglers that can grapple you from a huge distance and that you can't escape from without the help of an ally; Rich Lambert's "f*** you, strangler!" outburst last night is something we've all uttered countless times. But I do like that vMoS HM favors having a healer.)

That said, even in content where healers aren't "needed" like Scalecaller, I don't mind having a healer along. It's nice to have sustain from orbs. It's nice to not worry about Ele Drain. It's nice to know that I'm being taken care of and that I don't have to be as careful with my health. When I got the Mountain God achievement, it was with a healer in the group, and I always enjoy having her in dungeon runs, even if we could go slightly faster if it was 3x DD. I mean, I don't really care about shaving a few minutes off a dungeon run, and being pampered by a healer definitely feels nice. I've never turned down a healer because I would've preferred a DD instead, and most of the people that I play with feel the same way.

Kel

code65536 wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

Healers are very much needed in trials. Cloudrest may be the most healing-intensive trial (vHoF is a close second), but every raid group goes into every trial with two healers. Even in Asylum, the healers play very important roles. Their problem in Asylum is that their roles are very different and not that focused on healing, but they are still important to the handling of the mechanics.

There's no shortage of healers in the trials guild that I'm in.

It's 4-man content where the necessity of healers are sometimes called into question, and I personally fault that on the content design. Unavoidable ambient damage is a great way to force people to require healers. So take, for example, vMoS HM. In its original form during the first two weeks of PTS, the fireballs were undodgeable, which meant that the fire DoT was unavoidable. On top of that, the fire DoT had more ticks and ticked harder. The end result was that we ran that place with what we jokingly called 1 tank and 3 healers. We had a tank, a full-time healer, and both DDs ran resto staves on our back bars with mutagen and resto ult.

Now, vMoS HM in that original early-PTS form was pretty cancerous and they've since nerfed it a lot (but it's still very hard, as evidenced by the devs' 14 wipes there in last night's ESO Live), but I still feel most comfortable running with a full-time healer on that fight, because even though the fireballs are now dodgeable, you'd sometimes miss a dodge or run out of stam to dodge, and there is still enough ambient damage there that I can feel the difference between having heals and relying solely on myself for survival (we cleared vMoS HM several times--most of the time, we went with a healer, and those times, it took us only 1-4 pulls to clear HM, and the one time we did it with no healer, we wiped about 10 times before we got it).

If content was designed more like vMoS HM rather than vSCP HM, we'd see more demand for healers. (I should clarify: I think vMoS HM is overtuned, but that's because of the stranglers that can grapple you from a huge distance and that you can't escape from without the help of an ally; Rich Lambert's "f*** you, strangler!" outburst last night is something we've all uttered countless times. But I do like that vMoS HM favors having a healer.)

That said, even in content where healers aren't "needed" like Scalecaller, I don't mind having a healer along. It's nice to have sustain from orbs. It's nice to not worry about Ele Drain. It's nice to know that I'm being taken care of and that I don't have to be as careful with my health. When I got the Mountain God achievement, it was with a healer in the group, and I always enjoy having her in dungeon runs, even if we could go slightly faster if it was 3x DD. I mean, I don't really care about shaving a few minutes off a dungeon run, and being pampered by a healer definitely feels nice. I've never turned down a healer because I would've preferred a DD instead, and most of the people that I play with feel the same way.

That is awesome...I wish more players thought like this.