Other than players I already trusted to have solid, grounded opinions...

DanteYoda

Mureel wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I think this thread is unfair...

I don't think its the reps fault we are getting these nerfs, i think its more Zos only listens to Zos.. Especially certain balance devs with their own agendas.. The poor reps are trying their best to do what they know, which imo is limited to mostly meta obsessions on some of them, they do their best, but they are screaming into the wind at this point.

That said i really do not believe its the reps faults, its Zos's fault and they will not listen to anyone but themselves.. Sad imo.

Yeah sorry! My issue is that the program itself seems pointless if ZOS just doesn't care.

I meant that I haven't lost faith in the players I already knew to 'know their business' but the program itself, has left me feeling like it's pointless.

Someone posted earlier to have patience and wait for update 20, which I think is fair advice.

So I'll do that.

It's not as if I'm rage quitting or anything; I just think that it's the same weird stuff going down, only now it's even more obvious because I know darned well that no one ever said healers feel anything regarding shields. (FFS! Just writing that literally triggers me! It is so damned stupid!)

I'm gonna reel my neck in and go as advised; and await update 20.

Then we will see.

Nothing against you personally you are a great contributer to the forums, i just felt the direction was aimed at the wrong people.. Zos is well known for being narrow minded and do not take criticism well, like many of us tbh...

Please do not stop making great topics @Mureel

Waffennacht

Mureel wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I think this thread is unfair...

I don't think its the reps fault we are getting these nerfs, i think its more Zos only listens to Zos.. Especially certain balance devs with their own agendas.. The poor reps are trying their best to do what they know, which imo is limited to mostly meta obsessions on some of them, they do their best, but they are screaming into the wind at this point.

That said i really do not believe its the reps faults, its Zos's fault and they will not listen to anyone but themselves.. Sad imo.

Yeah sorry! My issue is that the program itself seems pointless if ZOS just doesn't care.

I meant that I haven't lost faith in the players I already knew to 'know their business' but the program itself, has left me feeling like it's pointless.

Someone posted earlier to have patience and wait for update 20, which I think is fair advice.

So I'll do that.

It's not as if I'm rage quitting or anything; I just think that it's the same weird stuff going down, only now it's even more obvious because I know darned well that no one ever said healers feel anything regarding shields. (FFS! Just writing that literally triggers me! It is so damned stupid!)

I'm gonna reel my neck in and go as advised; and await update 20.

Then we will see.

This is what I meant when I said I lost faith in the program as well.

There was a great discussion with the rep's involvement, I know they voiced more than. "wardens feel disgruntled" (and that literally was written 3 times in the same paragraph 3 different ways)

It wasn't the rep, it was ZoS' ignoring the feedback.

And I've been playing for about 4 years now; I've heard "next patch" more times than "this is the one!" Lmfao

Heck, I'm still waiting on mystery boxes

DuskMarine

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

@NightbladeMechanics the main thing about it that power creep needs to happen is litterally the dps races. sure avoiding mechanics is a issue but some of the mechanics you have to deal with while also dealing with a dps race as well. cp is something that honestly needs replaced with a brand new system. but making healers less relevant that isnt the mechanics its the dps races that make healers less relevant. even you have to admit do you need a healer in a dps race if you can keep yourself up well on your own while still doing dps? im not badmouthing class reps at all but you guys cant do anything because zos will do the opposite of what yall say its a program that was never gonna come to anything. as long as wrobels at zos well never see this game get better.

Power creep enables faster dps races, which in turn avoid mechanics.

And have you seen the patch notes? We've gotten so much awesome stuff done. Just because you're dissatisfied with a few issues doesn't mean the program hasn't "come to anything." I guess I see their receptiveness and work more from my position than you all can from outside, but trust me. They're trying. I'll reserve my final judgment for Update 20. That's the first update where they'll have had the time to undertake larger reworks.

your getting what im saying wrong here im not dissatisfied with a few issues its how their being handled. healers litterally if i can dps and keep my self alive without a healer then why bother taking a healer when i can take 4 dps? and dps races force this mindset on players if there wasnt a "omg if we dont do this amount of damage a second were gonna get nuked no matter what" timer then we wouldnt need power creep to continue and we could make actual fun raid groups. im in this for the game to be fun, not i have to worry about what ability is gonna get crapped on or armor is gonna be made useless. ive played destiny, wow, and a few other mmos and this is the only one where i have to worry about not having the damage over actually having the skill to keep it going or interrupting the were screwed attack. and me saying that the program hasnt come to anything also comes up with the global conception of seeing zos still going on their own(especially with wrobels shields nerf potential) instead of listening to you guys even with the pvp changes one of you said that yall had no hand in. when i say its amounting to nothing its because we dont see yalls hands in much of this actually being given life. its kindve a dead horse that keeps being beaten make the game fun not full on have to be as powerful as possible or your not gonna get anywhere. youve got to look at that the fun in this game kindve is getting drained out for the competitive spotlight which isnt a good thing. and in order to stay in that competitive area to where you can at least see the rest of the games hardmode and other things and do the harder content you have to have such high dps that youll never see come out of some people. ive been playing this game since before wrothgar and its been going down hill ever since thieves guild came out, its like whens it going to stop and get back on track where fun is the number 1 priority? im not against the reps at all you guys i imagine do good work but zos is still way to reluctant to actually see the bigger picture of what the community wants.

LadyLethalla

Astrid_V wrote: »

I also hope that @ZOS_Wrobel is aware that harness magicka and other shields are used in content where not always we can have a healer to help us (solo overland bosses, vMA, solo PvP etc) so nerfing shields will hurt solo players.

^^This. So much. ^^
In VMA - for me at least, with slower (age-related) reflexes and crappy internet - Harness is essential. Nerf that, boost its cost or nerf its resource return and why would I ever bother trying anything difficult ever again? @ZOS_Wrobel

Somewhere

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

I like the idea, but mechanics like that in ESO wouldn't work. Due to the increasing lag and latency every patch drop, I noticed the mechanics in dungeons have been lagging and glitching a lot. While I can complete harder content like Scalecaller and Fang lair, I'm unable to get the no death runs because of glitchy mechanics.

True, although the same problem occurs with our current one shot mechanics, but with those there is no way you can possibly be saved by a healer. You simply die. At least if it left you on deaths door there's a possibility of being saved.

Mureel

DanteYoda wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I think this thread is unfair...

I don't think its the reps fault we are getting these nerfs, i think its more Zos only listens to Zos.. Especially certain balance devs with their own agendas.. The poor reps are trying their best to do what they know, which imo is limited to mostly meta obsessions on some of them, they do their best, but they are screaming into the wind at this point.

That said i really do not believe its the reps faults, its Zos's fault and they will not listen to anyone but themselves.. Sad imo.

Yeah sorry! My issue is that the program itself seems pointless if ZOS just doesn't care.

I meant that I haven't lost faith in the players I already knew to 'know their business' but the program itself, has left me feeling like it's pointless.

Someone posted earlier to have patience and wait for update 20, which I think is fair advice.

So I'll do that.

It's not as if I'm rage quitting or anything; I just think that it's the same weird stuff going down, only now it's even more obvious because I know darned well that no one ever said healers feel anything regarding shields. (FFS! Just writing that literally triggers me! It is so damned stupid!)

I'm gonna reel my neck in and go as advised; and await update 20.

Then we will see.

Nothing against you personally you are a great contributer to the forums, i just felt the direction was aimed at the wrong people.. Zos is well known for being narrow minded and do not take criticism well, like many of us tbh...

Please do not stop making great topics @Mureel

@DanteYoda
Thank you

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed some off-topic and bashing comments from this thread. Please ensure that this discussion remains civil. Thank you for your understanding.

Mureel

max_only wrote: »

Only one of my characters use Harness Magicka. My mag temp healer.

Please please please don’t touch this. This skill does not need to be “balanced”.

@max_only

What? You mean you don't wanna burn your whole bar healing people standing in stupid, refill their resources, buff and debuff, warhorn, and then have not even a shield to call your own?

What on EARTH is wrong with you?

I do also use it on my NB, but I agree with you 100%

Mureel

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Yep perfectly said! We're legit ironing archivist down from after 1 rune/colour phase. I stack everything on boss and taunt new adds as they come and that's it. It's over.

A little off-topic, but you can skip the rune phases entirely. That faint red circle around the Archivist? It enrages anyone inside it, which is why you don't want any adds near him. But it enrages you too. So it's like that blue circle on the Warrior fight in HRC. What we do is have the tank taunt the initial two adds and just hold them away, to keep them outside the circle--we just ignore them. We run up and stand in the Archivist's circle and just burn. We hold our destros for when the next adds spawn--they'll run up to the Archivist and melt in the destros.

@code65366
Ooh I'll tell my team that! Thanks! ❤️

We're doing pretty much same, after 1st set (starting set) of adds. This will be even better!

@code65536 I think, as of today's patch, we need to go back to our way as mentioned above; actually kill the first two adds, handle the rune/colours phase, then just drop ultis from 80% and burn boss hard. I (tank) died at the last 3% but we had 2 dps and a newer healer - so eventually I ran out of resource for the 5 adds we got, whose agro I took.

It was hairy, but we still managed it this way.

With a slightly better geared/experienced healer, or 3 dps; it would have been a non-issue.

Shadowmaster

Beardimus wrote: »

Ok, I'm biased as I main a sorc...

But it feels to me that they just reacting to forum noise.

but it FEELS like a reaction to whines.

This, in my opinion, is because none of the game decision makers are playing this game as much or as at high a level, as the majority of the end-game player base.

I dont know that the current team has a good vision of where they want things to be.

Ragebull

Don’t hold out hope, the people at ZOS just aren’t good at what they decided to do for a living. They aren’t qualified to work on a game of this magnitude. That’s proven by the fact that they don’t address issues and they usually make the wrong decisions when they do

Prove me wrong ZOS, please

Xerge

Ragebull wrote: »

Don’t hold out hope, the people at ZOS just aren’t good at what they decided to do for a living. They aren’t qualified to work on a game of this magnitude. That’s proven by the fact that they don’t address issues and they usually make the wrong decisions when they do

Prove me wrong ZOS, please

This guy gets it. I'm old enough and experienced enough in the workforce to see this bright light. ZOS does not have a happy customer base; it shows everywhere. Not only that they're four years into live production. wow is all I can say.

Katahdin

I feel the same way about stamblades in end game content

Heard the other day some guys in my guild went with 4 DPS (magicka of course) on the last boss of vet SoM, cause the couldn't beat it a healer and tank. They also said stam dps would never be able to do it

Oreyn_Bearclaw

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
I of course agree with everything you just said. My concern is that from here on out, everything will be oblivion damage. Haha

code65536 wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

@code65536
Further to this; given how many healers are cast aside and made to be useless, in the arc up to Cloudrest, how many will be left who will actually have the will to progress to VCR, not even counting HM?

Yes I realise that there are healers in raids running it now, but how many? Of those, how many are in 2+ of the guilds clearing that now?

What about the future?

That's the issue.

If people are repeatedly left out of the rest of the game, why would they remain in a role that gets no meaningful play, so that some day they might get to be one of what 8-12 healers running that content server-wide?

Could be more or less than that number, but the point remains.

If you are devalued and irrelevant before you even come to the level of content where you are relevant, then how do you ever gain the experience to go to that content?

Healers are very much needed in trials. Cloudrest may be the most healing-intensive trial (vHoF is a close second), but every raid group goes into every trial with two healers. Even in Asylum, the healers play very important roles. Their problem in Asylum is that their roles are very different and not that focused on healing, but they are still important to the handling of the mechanics.

There's no shortage of healers in the trials guild that I'm in.

It's 4-man content where the necessity of healers are sometimes called into question, and I personally fault that on the content design. Unavoidable ambient damage is a great way to force people to require healers. So take, for example, vMoS HM. In its original form during the first two weeks of PTS, the fireballs were undodgeable, which meant that the fire DoT was unavoidable. On top of that, the fire DoT had more ticks and ticked harder. The end result was that we ran that place with what we jokingly called 1 tank and 3 healers. We had a tank, a full-time healer, and both DDs ran resto staves on our back bars with mutagen and resto ult.

Now, vMoS HM in that original early-PTS form was pretty cancerous and they've since nerfed it a lot (but it's still very hard, as evidenced by the devs' 14 wipes there in last night's ESO Live), but I still feel most comfortable running with a full-time healer on that fight, because even though the fireballs are now dodgeable, you'd sometimes miss a dodge or run out of stam to dodge, and there is still enough ambient damage there that I can feel the difference between having heals and relying solely on myself for survival (we cleared vMoS HM several times--most of the time, we went with a healer, and those times, it took us only 1-4 pulls to clear HM, and the one time we did it with no healer, we wiped about 10 times before we got it).

If content was designed more like vMoS HM rather than vSCP HM, we'd see more demand for healers. (I should clarify: I think vMoS HM is overtuned, but that's because of the stranglers that can grapple you from a huge distance and that you can't escape from without the help of an ally; Rich Lambert's "f*** you, strangler!" outburst last night is something we've all uttered countless times. But I do like that vMoS HM favors having a healer.)

That said, even in content where healers aren't "needed" like Scalecaller, I don't mind having a healer along. It's nice to have sustain from orbs. It's nice to not worry about Ele Drain. It's nice to know that I'm being taken care of and that I don't have to be as careful with my health. When I got the Mountain God achievement, it was with a healer in the group, and I always enjoy having her in dungeon runs, even if we could go slightly faster if it was 3x DD. I mean, I don't really care about shaving a few minutes off a dungeon run, and being pampered by a healer definitely feels nice. I've never turned down a healer because I would've preferred a DD instead, and most of the people that I play with feel the same way.

First, please bring up the devs failing miserably in vMoS HM as often as possible. It helps illustrate the fact that I am pretty sure most of them dont actually play the game, or at least not very well.

Second, no way our group would have cleared vMoS HM without a really good healer. Period. The fight is a bit of a cluster you know what on HM, but across the board, I think it's one of the best dungeons they have come up with to date.

Third, I will always take a good healer over a third DPS any day of the week. It makes for a much more enjoyable experience. Not to mention the fact that two properly buffed DPS put out almost the same DPS as 3 unbuffed DPS, with way less of a chance of things going badly.

WrathOfInnos

Most of your statements about healers being undesirable on runs could easily be applied to other classes and builds. How often do you see people asking for a MagDK or Warden DPS? Or a Templar tank? How about a Sorc tank?

Really the issue is much broader than just healers, there is a lot of imbalance in classes and roles, and no incentive to bring suboptimal builds. I don’t really think there is an easy solution to this, but I know a lot of players that feel your pain, some which are DPS and tanks. Really groups want only DK tanks (sometimes Wardens), Templar healers (sometimes a Warden), and mag/stam Nightblade DPS (with one Stamplar and one Mag Sorc allowable). That leaves 12/20 class/role combinations almost universally unwanted, and another 3/20 wanted with a cap of one person.

Luckily I have at least one alt of every class so I can be flexible, but I realize not everyone has that luxury.

I also strongly disagree with the possible shield nerf. I don’t think any healers have ever asked for that. The only place I’ve seen this request is salty PvP threads, and most experienced PvPers agree that shields are balanced.

ResTandRespeC

code65536 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Then instead of blaming shields, @ZOS_Wrobel should blame @ZOS_Finn instead? Take Scalecaller Peak, for example.

What are the things that will kill a DD?

1. Poison cone: 1-shot mechanic that must be avoided, cannot be healed or mitigated
2. Ice phase: DPS race mechanic that can only be won by killing the simulacra quickly. A healer can buy you a few extra seconds, but it's ultimately a DPS check.
3. Fire breath: Mechanic that can even kill the tank easily, not designed to be healed through, must be kited.
4. Zaan's beam: Mechanic that involves either a tank blocking for another player, or other players taking turns blocking for the tank. Can't heal through it.

Why are healers not needed in Scalecaller? Because the content has no healer checks. All the threats on the Zaan fight are 1-shots or other mechanics that no amount of heals (or shields, for that matter) will save you from.

Now contrast that with Vet Cloudrest HM. Healers are arguably the most important people there, because there are multiple healer checks and healing-intensive mechanics, and the death of the healer can very often domino into a wipe. There's ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain that is most efficiently dealt with by having DDs standing within heals. The Baneful Mark mechanic is a strong, intensive healer check.

Now further contrast with the previous trial, Asylum. I've said before that I think Asylum is the worst-designed trial ever, and here's one of the reasons: most of the damage on the DDs are 1-shots. They need to avoid damage--if they screw up, there's not much that the healer can do. And then add on top of that mechanics that force the healer away from the typical healer role, and it's easy to see why the healer role seems bastardized in Asylum.

Hey @ZOS_Wrobel if you don't think healers feel like they're important, go blame the dungeon team. The design of enemy mechanics are the main driving force behind what the support roles have to do. Stop fiddling with combat mechanics to solve a problem with content design. Just because you, as the combat design lead, have a hammer doesn't mean that every problem is in the shape of a bloody nail.

(And class reps--@NightbladeMechanics @Tasear @Masel92 etc.--please emphasize this to Wrobel.)

This is so on point it's astounding. If i could give you a hug, I would. Instead take an "agree".

Caligamy_ESO

Isn't it ironic that now I have less interest in playing my healer now WITH this change?

Oh Zos..

xeNNNNN

To be honest a someone who main heals PvE. Yes I do actually agree that a lot of the time I find my role pointless as most people just shield through damage which is meh.

However in all fairness to DDs harness is a huge source of sustain for them and protect, so if the devs are going to nerf Harness, we need elemental drain to be buffed.

Because if DDs (magicka) stop slotting harness then they will lose out in sustain and thus result in less DPS and so they should buff the amount of magicka regained via elemental drain.

Im fine with shields being nerfed I think thats fair, I will actually feel useful in PvE but I dont want DDs running out of mag as a result either because due to the sustain changes over the last year or so its made it much harder for Healers to give DDs and tanks resources back including the synergy overlap problem AND the change to repentance which screwed stam DDs as it meant that templar healers wouldn't be able to help them much barring shard spam which is frustrating as most of the time in the harder content you want to keep a shard on the tank almost 100% of the time.

WrathOfInnos

xeNNNNN wrote: »

To be honest a someone who main heals PvE. Yes I do actually agree that a lot of the time I find my role pointless as most people just shield through damage which is meh.

However in all fairness to DDs harness is a huge source of sustain for them and protect, so if the devs are going to nerf Harness, we need elemental drain to be buffed.

Because if DDs (magicka) stop slotting harness then they will lose out in sustain and thus result in less DPS and so they should buff the amount of magicka regained via elemental drain.

Im fine with shields being nerfed I think thats fair, I will actually feel useful in PvE but I dont want DDs running out of mag as a result either because due to the sustain changes over the last year or so its made it much harder for Healers to give DDs and tanks resources back including the synergy overlap problem AND the change to repentance which screwed stam DDs as it meant that templar healers wouldn't be able to help them much barring shard spam which is frustrating as most of the time in the harder content you want to keep a shard on the tank almost 100% of the time.

This is a very backward post. Nobody uses Harness Magicka for sustain or DPS. Every DD would get higher DPS if they removed Harness from their bar and used a damage skill instead. Harness is also very expensive, and best case scenario (receiving damage from a fast-ticking, low magnitude, Magic-based DoT) it can return approximately the cast cost, at the expense of using a global cooldown and dealing no damage. In most cases Harness will still drain Magicka faster than other skills.

The reason DPS slot and use Harness is for a healing safety net. If the healer dies they might be able to survive long enough to Rez. If the healer is focusing on the tank, Harness can be used to stay alive and not demand the healer’s attention. Staying at high health by preventing damage with Harness is also a good method to ensure that smart heals go to the tank (I’ve seen many tanks die to Warrior or Rakkhat because a DPS took avoidable damage and “stole” the next heal).

For harder content like vCR and vAS HM, Dampen magic is usually the preferred morph. It costs 4590 Magicka and returns 0. In these trials especially, healers have a lot of important jobs to do besides healing, so they rely on DPS being able to self-sustain to some degree.

My point here is that DD’s typically take a DPS loss to slot a shield and help their healer, and the backlash is now that healers do not feel needed. If you are one of these healers then I recommend telling your group to indoor their shields and go “full DPS”. If you can keep them alive then great, you are now important. If not, then you will be blamed for the wipe, and it will be a preview of the toxicity healers will experience if their skill and reaction-time becomes critical to group survival.

linlilia

I think my issue is that every time they try to "rebalance" healing they end up screwing Templars instead of buffing the other classes to make them closer to the traditional true healing class. Unless they decide to make a class of only healing skills (like a priest or saint, insert name of your choice here), where they have to use weapons to get DPS, the balancing down of Templars messes everyone up.

I am not the best player, but I enjoy healing, and they have already made making a healer tough as nails because so much of the game requires DPS to level, especially as a new player. (Older players know many ways to exp farm to not need to play story lines.) Being a healer and getting practice healing is hard. In PVP there is no point because in a big group you just spam heals and get AP, and lets be real most just learn to embrace dying in PVP (if you have not figured that out then you are not PVPing enough.) Structured Healing is hard to learn because all content is based around heavy DPS.

And then few dungeons where you are really needed because your team is questionable, often times I will just swap in a few DPS skills and kill everything because the DPS are that bad or new. (Always fun when you get 2 or 3 sub 40s in a group and then your 700plus healer has to do tons of heavy lifting.) Many DPS just hate the healers because you have made the use of glass cannon DPS the desired need and they get mad when you cant heal a one shot. (I am sorry DPS but if you can't take a 18k hit you are a glass cannon, and glass cannons are stupid unless it is PVP).

Learning how to heal is painful, and most won't let you get through the learning curve, and the few good groups don't need it anyway as many have said before. I was in IC on Molag Bol hunts and my low level healer never got anything on drops because I was not DPSing enough, and it was so frustrating because I could see how many people I was keeping alive. It makes me not want to finish her as a healer.

Because I have not needed to heavy heal in a long time, the few times I do, the skills "revamping" just continue to screw me over.

If you want people to actually care about mechanics and have long fights where true Tanks and Healers are needed put a hard cap on DPS. Max DPS you can get is blah period including buffs/debuffs and crit stats (Personally I would say 40k with all possible buffs and crits, don't hate me DPSers but being able to 1 hit true tanks in PVP is just stupid and makes PVP boring and frustrating to anyone not playing elite DPS.)

Sylvermynx

@linlilia: Your post is truly great. I've never healed in any game, because my lag is so bad everyone would die before the heal landed! No.... I'm not kidding....

But having played WoW and RIFT for years, and now ESO, I do understand where you are coming from. Without healers, group content in those earlier games would have been really ugly. I'm not even attempting group content in ESO because my lag in this game is FAR worse than in the previous ones for whatever reason. I can't justify gimping a group - and I certainly would expect to get kicked so where's the point?

I do hope that the pendulum swings back before the healers go elsewhere.

DanteYoda

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

Isn't it ironic that now I have less interest in playing my healer now WITH this change?

Oh Zos..

Even though i don't do dungeons i removed all my healer aspect now.. in case i ever did.. i'll just get kicked in the future no one will want healers anymore..

Oh and has anyone tried to level up a healer, as in straight healer 1-50... Good luck with that.. Such balance.. much wow..

shaielzafine

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Good lord, Wrobel came up with this? Like the OP, I thought maybe a class rep said that or something, surely not a dev????? Do they really think shields need to be changed??? Like, seriously??? This is just sad that they have zero clue what to do with this game

Masel

shaielzafine wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Good lord, Wrobel came up with this? Like the OP, I thought maybe a class rep said that or something, surely not a dev????? Do they really think shields need to be changed??? Like, seriously??? This is just sad that they have zero clue what to do with this game

Yeah that one wasn't from us. That and the blade cloak thing were two major points that weren't on our lists of major pain points that need addressing. We told them that healers want to feel more useful, but we did not suggest this one. The first part of the meeting was wrobel reading his list of pain points out to us, and it was basically all the points we sent them in advance, less the ones that they had conceptual arguments against.... Ice mage dps for example was on my list for wardens, but it is supposed to be a tanking weapon so they took it off the list.

Mureel

DanteYoda wrote: »

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

Isn't it ironic that now I have less interest in playing my healer now WITH this change?

Oh Zos..

Even though i don't do dungeons i removed all my healer aspect now.. in case i ever did.. i'll just get kicked in the future no one will want healers anymore..

Oh and has anyone tried to level up a healer, as in straight healer 1-50... Good luck with that.. Such balance.. much wow..

At least jabs. They damage and heal. So to be fair, Templars have that...I levelled mine as a healer back in da dey- and yes. Was less fun.

Peekachu99

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

Healers are less relevant because of the power-creep and the fact that three dps (in dungeons) are more effective and offer less chance for human error on even the toughest fights. Lower the ceiling and fights would be longer, mechanics couldn’t be “burned past” and people would have to actually have some sustain or someone sustaining them.

This is the exact same spiral that DCUO went into. Literally beat for beat.

Wreuntzylla

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

I am not sure this is relevant to this particular case, but what solution did the reps propose for the problem?

If you have followed the game over the years, ZoS is not willing to pay for resources to overhaul core elements of the game. They look for simple changes. It's one thing explaining the problem to ZoS, it's a completely different thing to propose a solution they will implement.

Revisiting the CP system and overhauling mechanics in existing content are both sweeping enough in scale that I doubt ZoS will touch either. Nerfing a damage avoidance mechanism (e.g., shields) is a relatively simple change to implement. That they targetted the wrong mechanic is not particularly surprising, but I am curious what alternatives were proposed.

Also, just as a general comment, from the very beginning ZoS stated that they did not have the typical trinity design in mind. I recall pondering at early release why ZoS would deny the trinity and yet put solid healing skill lines in for NB and Templar. They were able to essentially remove NB healers by nerfing funnel health. Templars posed a much more complex issue and they have been systematically trying to gut restoring light over the years, while schizophrenically buffing healing at times. Maajor mending was an addition and not an original mechanic.

Then, of course, they turned around and implemented the warden class with healing that eclipsed that of the templar on an epic scale. Heck, in one of the biggest PR mistakes I have ever seen in any game, they took major templar strengths away and handed them to wardens... That lasted long enough for sales to peter out and then was nerfed in essentially one fell swoop.

In sum, I think that either ZoS is schizophrenic when it comes to their vision and roadmap, or both have evolved over time, but the person in charge somehow failed to align key stakeholders (departments). The problem with dungeons posted earlier in this thread clearly aligns with a no-trinity vision, nerfing shields (or anything else) for the sake of healers clearly does not.

Banana

Whens Gilliam taking over

Joy_Division

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The reps did not suggest the shield issue to ZOS. Wrobel brought it up himself as part of his own analysis. We explained that CP, power creep, and avoiding mechanics are the core issues making healers less relevant.

I am not sure this is relevant to this particular case, but what solution did the reps propose for the problem?

If you have followed the game over the years, ZoS is not willing to pay for resources to overhaul core elements of the game. They look for simple changes. It's one thing explaining the problem to ZoS, it's a completely different thing to propose a solution they will implement.

Revisiting the CP system and overhauling mechanics in existing content are both sweeping enough in scale that I doubt ZoS will touch either. Nerfing a damage avoidance mechanism (e.g., shields) is a relatively simple change to implement. That they targetted the wrong mechanic is not particularly surprising, but I am curious what alternatives were proposed.

Also, just as a general comment, from the very beginning ZoS stated that they did not have the typical trinity design in mind. I recall pondering at early release why ZoS would deny the trinity and yet put solid healing skill lines in for NB and Templar. They were able to essentially remove NB healers by nerfing funnel health. Templars posed a much more complex issue and they have been systematically trying to gut restoring light over the years, while schizophrenically buffing healing at times. Maajor mending was an addition and not an original mechanic.

Then, of course, they turned around and implemented the warden class with healing that eclipsed that of the templar on an epic scale. Heck, in one of the biggest PR mistakes I have ever seen in any game, they took major templar strengths away and handed them to wardens... That lasted long enough for sales to peter out and then was nerfed in essentially one fell swoop.

In sum, I think that either ZoS is schizophrenic when it comes to their vision and roadmap, or both have evolved over time, but the person in charge somehow failed to align key stakeholders (departments). The problem with dungeons posted earlier in this thread clearly aligns with a no-trinity vision, nerfing shields (or anything else) for the sake of healers clearly does not.

It's hard for us to come up with solutions because we don't know what ZOS is working on or its future plans any more than you do. The program is there to identify problems. In our estimation, the problems stem from what Kena wrote above and common dungeon dangers of one-shots.

I played the game since Launch and as a healer, I can say I always felt needed, wanted, and appreciated in the first year of the game. The game was very buggy, too many of the systems were overly rigid and not user friendly at all, but the vision and the game-play was quite good and I very much liked moving away from the hard trinity. I was a healer, but had to do some other things and I liked it a lot.

The issue is that while ZOS made major improvements in fixing so much of what was broke (like most of the Nightblade class lol) and made the game systems much more convenient and user-friendly, they have taken quite a few steps backward putting so much emphasis on the Champion system governing game-play. It has opened the door to a huge power-creep (and, worse, the generic kind of flat boring % boosts) that has undermined the very vision they had in the first place. We have become so powerful that we don't need healers except for the most challenging content, which is few and far between because the older content can't keep pace with the power-creep.

I don't think there is an easy solution because the problem goes so deep.

Tannus15

The power creep problem is real.
My dps has gone up by 30% since summerset came out and I haven't improved that much.