PTS Patch Notes v4.1.2

RGD

Saturn wrote: »

TLDR: I think this whole "issue" is completely blown out of proportion and mostly boils down to people not running intelligent setups, since otherwise I can't really fathom why everyone would keep mentioning "having to be stunned for 5s" since you usually would immediately break free from it.

No offense, this point is completely moot. I run a Stamina build, I have Shacklebreaker & Bone Pirate on a Redguard Nightblade with pots that give me bonus stam regen, I know this seems irrelevant because you'd need to have stamina to break free... here's the issue... I rarely run low on resources. I've had times where I've tried to break free from Rune Cage and other CC abilities of the like with almost a full stamina pool, 32k is what I have maximum, I remember specifically trying to break free while I had 30k in my pool at the time and it wouldn't let me. I just had to sit there and take the full weave, other enemy damage and the sorc executes on top of that.

Technically, Rune Cage isn't the issue, it's because of the class that it's on (I still think the undodgable property and range is abit busted, though.) The real issue is it's a sorcerer. Sorcerers are strong as all hell, big shields, 2 executes, curse, simple rotations, pets on top of that they can drop ults while you can't break free for maximum damage. The ability is completely busted BECAUSE of all of this, the reason Fossilize is not as bad, is it's short range and the DK doesn't have nearly as much burst or execute potential as the sorc. I also believe the stun on fossilize breaks once you take a certain amount of damage and then you're rooted but can still cast abilities, I can't remember properly as I haven't played a magicka character in a long time, let alone a mag DK.

Really, break free needs to be fixed, but the ability needs balance and counter-play elements as well. IIRC I said I didn't mind the stun on crystal frag because you can do things to counter it, you can only break free from rune cage, there's no other way to prevent it from hitting you other than immovable pots.

ADarklore

Saturn wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

All in all I think WWs received a major buff, and while I agree that lowering light attack damage shouldn't be the solution to fix the ridiculous PvE DPS they can now achieve (nerfing Blood Moon would be the best course of action), I have to stress just how absolutely devastating this would be to the PvE scene if left as it is on the PTS. It would entirely take away skillful play from stam dps, with the only barriers for entry being: three sets that can be farmed easily and one's natural resistance to carpal tunnel. We're talking at least 45k single target dps by just spamming light attacks. If you don't recognise that as terrible for the health of the endgame community, then just wait and see what happens if it goes live like this..

Actually, it's good for the "health of the endgame community" by bringing in more players who now can hit the dps numbers that would normally get them excluded from endgame groups by default.
Suddenly, the 1% looks like it may grow to a higher number.

@Mystrius_Archaion
Having no skill curve isn't a good thing. Because the end result is that people beat content too quickly for new stuff to arrive and subsequently quit the game. Games whose PvP and PvE endgame communities thrive, do so because there's a progression and something to work towards. If a player with no time invested in a build can beat someone who has spent a long time min/max'ing everything, that is a bad thing.

EDIT: The reason why people call the endgame community "the 1%" is because ZOS actively nurtures a mainly casual audience, and pretty much *** over the entire endgame community once or twice a year. Getting into the endgame scene in ESO isn't any different from most other MMOs, it's just that ZOS don't actively encourage players to become better, so it ends up being only people who enjoy challenges and the prestige of beating something, which in turn creates a super elitist crowd. ZOS constantly rewards and validates its casual audience to such a point that if you start playing the game seriously, you will no longer feel like your voice is listened to and that's why the endgame community is the size it is, not because it's actually difficult to do endgame content. The main challenge in running challenging content is usually always finding enough warm bodies to fill the seats, lol.

Well, let's be honest... for a BUSINESS... shouldn't they focus on the people that generate more revenue than those who already have everything so typically spend less on Crown Store items? I think any business would focus on the group that supports them the most financially, that's just smart business... now if ESO was a charity that didn't need an income, then by all means focus on the smallest group. But let's also be further realistic in that ESO is a 'quest-driven' game, in that the majority of players are solo/casual players who spend more time questing than 'end game' or PvP. So again, any business would be smart to focus on their majority player base and making sure they are happy, before worrying about the smaller player percentage.

Saturn

RGD wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

TLDR: I think this whole "issue" is completely blown out of proportion and mostly boils down to people not running intelligent setups, since otherwise I can't really fathom why everyone would keep mentioning "having to be stunned for 5s" since you usually would immediately break free from it.

No offense, this point is completely moot. I run a Stamina build, I have Shacklebreaker & Bone Pirate on a Redguard Nightblade with pots that give me bonus stam regen, I know this seems irrelevant because you'd need to have stamina to break free... here's the issue... I rarely run low on resources. I've had times where I've tried to break free from Rune Cage and other CC abilities of the like with almost a full stamina pool, 32k is what I have maximum, I remember specifically trying to break free while I had 30k in my pool at the time and it wouldn't let me. I just had to sit there and take the full weave, other enemy damage and the sorc executes on top of that.

Technically, Rune Cage isn't the issue, it's because of the class that it's on (I still think the undodgable property and range is abit busted, though.) The real issue is it's a sorcerer. Sorcerers are strong as all hell, big shields, 2 executes, curse, simple rotations, pets on top of that they can drop ults while you can't break free for maximum damage. The ability is completely busted BECAUSE of all of this, the reason Fossilize is not as bad, is it's short range and the DK doesn't have nearly as much burst or execute potential as the sorc. I also believe the stun on fossilize breaks once you take a certain amount of damage and then you're rooted but can still cast abilities, I can't remember properly as I haven't played a magicka character in a long time, let alone a mag DK.

Really, break free needs to be fixed, but the ability needs balance and counter-play elements as well. IIRC I said I didn't mind the stun on crystal frag because you can do things to counter it, you can only break free from rune cage, there's no other way to prevent it from hitting you other than immovable pots.

Right, so it's not rune cage, but the game. So why are people using it as a reason why rune cage is bad then? That's what I don't get. Maybe you get the breakfree bug moreso than other people, but honestly I've never thought the skill was a problem in the entire time it has existed in the game (which is since launch btw). I get that it's an issue if the counter-play is busted, but I have to reiterate that there's no use complaining about the skill if your main problem lies with the broken mechanic and not the skill itself, because by that logic all stuns would be a problem. And once again i have to reiterate that DKs can have quite enough burst to make a full duration stun of fossilize deadly for their opponent, at least if they run setups not centered around tanking damage. I just know that when people don't break my fossilize they tend to die, and I've had the same experience fighting other DKs.

By your logic of it only having one type of counterplay you have to bring a lot of other skills into the debate, since Steel Tornado is currently also overperforming as it can only be countered by blocking, since dodging no longer works and it has a massive radius and is an executable, same thing with Dawnbreaker which can also be instantly cast and "invisible" if people animation cancel it fast enough.

If the stun wasn't sometimes bugged (which rarely happens to me, only maybe once every 30-40th stun), then Rune Cage wouldn't really be a problem at all. As I've mentioned before, it is normal to immediately break-free, and if you can't you usually die, regardless of what stun hits you, whether it be from a javelin, uppercut, incap, shield bash, etc. At least when you are fighting competent opponents.

What bothers me the most about the complaints people have about the skill is that everyone seems to have different ideas of why it's bad, and most of it seems like bull**** tbh. I also think that complaining about the skill, when you are in fact complaining about an overarching problem that affects all stuns, is kind of muddling the point you're trying to make, since by that logic you'd have to complain about all stuns with a long duration.

Saturn

ADarklore wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

All in all I think WWs received a major buff, and while I agree that lowering light attack damage shouldn't be the solution to fix the ridiculous PvE DPS they can now achieve (nerfing Blood Moon would be the best course of action), I have to stress just how absolutely devastating this would be to the PvE scene if left as it is on the PTS. It would entirely take away skillful play from stam dps, with the only barriers for entry being: three sets that can be farmed easily and one's natural resistance to carpal tunnel. We're talking at least 45k single target dps by just spamming light attacks. If you don't recognise that as terrible for the health of the endgame community, then just wait and see what happens if it goes live like this..

Actually, it's good for the "health of the endgame community" by bringing in more players who now can hit the dps numbers that would normally get them excluded from endgame groups by default.
Suddenly, the 1% looks like it may grow to a higher number.

@Mystrius_Archaion
Having no skill curve isn't a good thing. Because the end result is that people beat content too quickly for new stuff to arrive and subsequently quit the game. Games whose PvP and PvE endgame communities thrive, do so because there's a progression and something to work towards. If a player with no time invested in a build can beat someone who has spent a long time min/max'ing everything, that is a bad thing.

EDIT: The reason why people call the endgame community "the 1%" is because ZOS actively nurtures a mainly casual audience, and pretty much *** over the entire endgame community once or twice a year. Getting into the endgame scene in ESO isn't any different from most other MMOs, it's just that ZOS don't actively encourage players to become better, so it ends up being only people who enjoy challenges and the prestige of beating something, which in turn creates a super elitist crowd. ZOS constantly rewards and validates its casual audience to such a point that if you start playing the game seriously, you will no longer feel like your voice is listened to and that's why the endgame community is the size it is, not because it's actually difficult to do endgame content. The main challenge in running challenging content is usually always finding enough warm bodies to fill the seats, lol.

Well, let's be honest... for a BUSINESS... shouldn't they focus on the people that generate more revenue than those who already have everything so typically spend less on Crown Store items? I think any business would focus on the group that supports them the most financially, that's just smart business... now if ESO was a charity that didn't need an income, then by all means focus on the smallest group. But let's also be further realistic in that ESO is a 'quest-driven' game, in that the majority of players are solo/casual players who spend more time questing than 'end game' or PvP. So again, any business would be smart to focus on their majority player base and making sure they are happy, before worrying about the smaller player percentage.

@ADarklore

Well, there are several ways to go about it. Some games that aim to keep a hold of their players add incentives to keep progressing, so that even casual players feel it's necessary to at least climb upwards a little bit, but they usually also focus heavily on stuff anyone can do. WoW was very popular because of this. I mean, imagine if Blizzard had operated like ZOS, it just wouldn't have worked.
ESO focuses mostly on stuff that everyone can do, with a carrot tossed to the PvE and PvP community once in a while, hence why these communities are so small and stagnant. I think ZOS' way of doing their business creates a very swing-door like community that has people leaving the endgame community and being replaced by new players at a much faster rate than other MMOs.

I don't disagree that this is the best revenue-stream for them to pursue, but they have also sowed the fields for this specific crop so this is what they reap. I think it's too late for them to change it now, which is a shame, but if they had set a different precedent earlier, they could have given themselves other revenue-streams to follow. However, instead they are using predatory gambling systems, and they rob their own game of rewards just so they can sell them in their store. Another strong indicator that its $ > everything else, is the way they treat their own game. They'll release content broken, just to be able to reach their own deadlines, but don't seem to hire enough people to make that system actually work, and we the players have to suffer for it. Even just something as straightforward as a holiday event is launched in a broken state.

TLDR: I think it's incorrect to assume that ZOS' way of driving their business is the only way. But, with the environment they've created in their game, it's the only thing that's really viable. Other games have been successful without resorting to similar strategies, because they are capable of fostering a player-base that doesn't immediately lose interest and leave once something isn't shiny anymore.

Mystrius_Archaion

ADarklore wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

All in all I think WWs received a major buff, and while I agree that lowering light attack damage shouldn't be the solution to fix the ridiculous PvE DPS they can now achieve (nerfing Blood Moon would be the best course of action), I have to stress just how absolutely devastating this would be to the PvE scene if left as it is on the PTS. It would entirely take away skillful play from stam dps, with the only barriers for entry being: three sets that can be farmed easily and one's natural resistance to carpal tunnel. We're talking at least 45k single target dps by just spamming light attacks. If you don't recognise that as terrible for the health of the endgame community, then just wait and see what happens if it goes live like this..

Actually, it's good for the "health of the endgame community" by bringing in more players who now can hit the dps numbers that would normally get them excluded from endgame groups by default.
Suddenly, the 1% looks like it may grow to a higher number.

@Mystrius_Archaion
Having no skill curve isn't a good thing. Because the end result is that people beat content too quickly for new stuff to arrive and subsequently quit the game. Games whose PvP and PvE endgame communities thrive, do so because there's a progression and something to work towards. If a player with no time invested in a build can beat someone who has spent a long time min/max'ing everything, that is a bad thing.

EDIT: The reason why people call the endgame community "the 1%" is because ZOS actively nurtures a mainly casual audience, and pretty much *** over the entire endgame community once or twice a year. Getting into the endgame scene in ESO isn't any different from most other MMOs, it's just that ZOS don't actively encourage players to become better, so it ends up being only people who enjoy challenges and the prestige of beating something, which in turn creates a super elitist crowd. ZOS constantly rewards and validates its casual audience to such a point that if you start playing the game seriously, you will no longer feel like your voice is listened to and that's why the endgame community is the size it is, not because it's actually difficult to do endgame content. The main challenge in running challenging content is usually always finding enough warm bodies to fill the seats, lol.

Well, let's be honest... for a BUSINESS... shouldn't they focus on the people that generate more revenue than those who already have everything so typically spend less on Crown Store items? I think any business would focus on the group that supports them the most financially, that's just smart business... now if ESO was a charity that didn't need an income, then by all means focus on the smallest group. But let's also be further realistic in that ESO is a 'quest-driven' game, in that the majority of players are solo/casual players who spend more time questing than 'end game' or PvP. So again, any business would be smart to focus on their majority player base and making sure they are happy, before worrying about the smaller player percentage.

And this is why I posted my previous post about "the werewolf easy high dps is a good thing", which is quoted above.
It gets more people easier access, not super easy perfect, to the endgame content. They can actually decide if they want to do it or not rather than stop at "I would never get a group" and not even try.

Also, that specific werewolf rotation isn't likely as easy as people think and still requires doing endgame content for the specific setup to work. It's not guaranteed easy mode, but it is something to work for.

Some of us, a lot of us, would actually like to run the endgame content for fun or the other rewards that come from it, such as cosmetic skins. We don't have any hope of doing so usually nor any reason to otherwise.
I don't think most people run any sort of endgame content for the gear that drops because they don't need that gear for the content that they actually do. Hell, you need to complete the endgame content to get the gear from it anyway so it is even pointless for the endgame content.

You know why endgame pve progression actually works? In other games at least, it works because every update raises the level/gear cap so that you actually NEED the old gear to complete the newer content, maybe even before you are allowed to enter with actual coded gear checks. That's how the gear treadmill works, but, even when it is designed that way, those games always implement a way to accelerate or bypass the lower tiers to let people catch up and play together and keep the endgame looking full of players.
ESO doesn't have this so the only real reason to run any content is for the cosmetics or just because you want to, which the former has a limit and the latter is potentially limitless.
We have choices in ESO. If they want us to choose specific choices then they need to reduce the barriers to that; thus, the werewolf build people have posted about is a very good thing to break down one barrier.


I, personally, don't play for progression in the sense that many people are apparently deluded and deceived into believing in. I play for the end result of that progression that I can then enjoy as "cool flashy effects and ragdoll physics as groups of enemies fall before my power" and the other cosmetics of the game. I don't actually honestly enjoy progression. I'm bored with the treadmill because I've seen it since I started gaming over a quarter-century ago.
The progression treadmill is just a barrier to results, like working out at the gym is just the barrier to a healthy attractive body which we all wish was easier to attain and maintain without "wasting time exercising" and the soreness and sweat that comes with that. It's not like we actually enjoy being held back and blocked and potential suffering.

You may think that a lack of that "grind" to the results would result in lack of enthusiasm with the results or apathy and boredom, but that's just a personal mental issue for someone who hasn't found something to truly enjoy. It's like enjoying sitting and watching a sunset while another person would think of that as completely wasted time, or spending time with a girlfriend or boyfriend instead of making more money or saving more by not spending on dinner and a movie.
It's like playing a video game that many people still consider a "stupid waste of time".
Yes, some people would enjoy the grind but not because the grind is fun to all or even most people; they enjoy the grind for the same reason some people enjoy fetish bdsm or masochism of any kind. That is what "enjoying progression" really is at its heart as the ever-unreachable "carrot on a stick", just more masochism.

We just have to recognize the simpler truths of what we really enjoy so that we actually enjoy it and don't "miss the forest because of the trees".


Edit:
Yes, I've been here for years, almost 3 now, just because of the cosmetics and the graphics, and ease of controlling my character also.
I occasionally "challenge myself" by soloing a worldboss, which is really just a test of prediction and positioning that could be called "strategy". That kind of "challenge" isn't about any "grind for higher numbers" and stats don't even matter so much as having the most options possible for tools to work to my own strengths in my strategic actions.

I've never touched a trial other than a normal difficulty PUG addition into an imploding failing run of Asylum Sanctorium that was on the second boss and never got past it. I don't really care to do it or any other trial again because too much of it is too chaotic and heavily dependent on other people being as effective as myself on their own and compatible with my own strategies. You can't really get good enough coordination in that big a group and it is impossible to truly compensate for that on your own.
So, I avoid trial groups and other endgame activities and focus on what I do enjoy, but I always wish I could get the hard mode cosmetics if I find them interesting, like the Sanctified Silver skin. I'll live without it.

Edit2:
I also very much enjoy the fully voiced quests and interesting world-changing progression. That's what I call true progression, when I can actually make an area safe for travel or see a terrain change due to my actions. That far outstrips any gear grind fake progression.

Saturn

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

All in all I think WWs received a major buff, and while I agree that lowering light attack damage shouldn't be the solution to fix the ridiculous PvE DPS they can now achieve (nerfing Blood Moon would be the best course of action), I have to stress just how absolutely devastating this would be to the PvE scene if left as it is on the PTS. It would entirely take away skillful play from stam dps, with the only barriers for entry being: three sets that can be farmed easily and one's natural resistance to carpal tunnel. We're talking at least 45k single target dps by just spamming light attacks. If you don't recognise that as terrible for the health of the endgame community, then just wait and see what happens if it goes live like this..

Actually, it's good for the "health of the endgame community" by bringing in more players who now can hit the dps numbers that would normally get them excluded from endgame groups by default.
Suddenly, the 1% looks like it may grow to a higher number.

@Mystrius_Archaion
Having no skill curve isn't a good thing. Because the end result is that people beat content too quickly for new stuff to arrive and subsequently quit the game. Games whose PvP and PvE endgame communities thrive, do so because there's a progression and something to work towards. If a player with no time invested in a build can beat someone who has spent a long time min/max'ing everything, that is a bad thing.

EDIT: The reason why people call the endgame community "the 1%" is because ZOS actively nurtures a mainly casual audience, and pretty much *** over the entire endgame community once or twice a year. Getting into the endgame scene in ESO isn't any different from most other MMOs, it's just that ZOS don't actively encourage players to become better, so it ends up being only people who enjoy challenges and the prestige of beating something, which in turn creates a super elitist crowd. ZOS constantly rewards and validates its casual audience to such a point that if you start playing the game seriously, you will no longer feel like your voice is listened to and that's why the endgame community is the size it is, not because it's actually difficult to do endgame content. The main challenge in running challenging content is usually always finding enough warm bodies to fill the seats, lol.

Well, let's be honest... for a BUSINESS... shouldn't they focus on the people that generate more revenue than those who already have everything so typically spend less on Crown Store items? I think any business would focus on the group that supports them the most financially, that's just smart business... now if ESO was a charity that didn't need an income, then by all means focus on the smallest group. But let's also be further realistic in that ESO is a 'quest-driven' game, in that the majority of players are solo/casual players who spend more time questing than 'end game' or PvP. So again, any business would be smart to focus on their majority player base and making sure they are happy, before worrying about the smaller player percentage.

And this is why I posted my previous post about "the werewolf easy high dps is a good thing", which is quoted above.
It gets more people easier access, not super easy perfect, to the endgame content. They can actually decide if they want to do it or not rather than stop at "I would never get a group" and not even try.

Also, that specific werewolf rotation isn't likely as easy as people think and still requires doing endgame content for the specific setup to work. It's not guaranteed easy mode, but it is something to work for.

I'm gonna have to stop you there. If you think a rotation that is based 100% on just spamming light attack isn't easy, then how do you even manage to normally dps? The reason why it is such a problem is because it literally only has its sets as the barriers for entry. To get the two main parts, Blood Moon and Relequen, you can farm on normal difficulty. I had a full sets of both Siroria and Relequen after the first week of Summerset by just running with zone pug trials. The only slightly difficult thing to acquire is Molag Kena, since you need to do that on veteran and because the shoulder only comes from the Undaunted chest. Normal cloudrest isn't considered endgame content, and dungeons aren't either, so no, it doesn't require you doing "endgame content" to get the gear. It is guaranteed easymode, since you just have to be able to spam light attacks..

I'm gonna have to reiterate that having no skill barrier for a potentially BiS setup can only be a bad thing. If you actually wanted to participate in the endgame it's not like it's impossible to do, in fact most PvE guilds (that I know of) are actively looking for members since very few people are interested in it. You won't be able to run endgame if you just put on a broken setup, but still don't actively try to join endgame guilds, that's just how it is. People who chant the "i would never get a group" phrase, will never get a group, even with this kind of setup, because they already believe they've lost before even trying.

I won't say that I haven't met people with such defeatist outlooks on their own gaming prowess, but I don't think it's a proper justification to break the balance.

The reason why the WW setup is bad for the health of the endgame, is because it completely obliterates well-thought-out setups without even trying. It takes balance and throws it out the window. It will be like when seemingly 80% of the game's endgame community ran DKs in trials during the first year, because they completely outperformed everything else.

If you don't realise why it's bad for the game, then I guess I can't really convince you.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a few nonconstructive comments. Please keep comments on topic with the new changes, civil, and feedback constructive. Thank you.

itscompton

Feanor wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Rune Cage is pretty much reverted to pre summerset. So everyone can stop complaining about a skill that wasn't complained about for the 6 months prior.

Not really. Old RC was dodgeable and it would break on the next direct damage.

In crowded fights it basically meant free CC immunity for the enemy

There was a (brief) period of time when Rune Cage had no damage, but functioned as a stun. You probably don't remember it because everyone was using Fire Reach, instead.

People weren't using it because it didn't last for a broken OP 5 seconds, not because it had no damage.

How is it broken exactly? It works like Petrify, with just worse morph choices and longer ranged, yet no one complains about that skill.

Not even close, Rune Cage last 2X as long as petrify and is being wielded by a class designed around bursting opponents down in a small window. At 2.5 seconds a character with 25-28K resistance and 25K health has a chance to survive that burst, but when the Sorc gets another 2.5 seconds free damage that same character gets melted almost every time. And DK is almost never going to burst that same character down from 100% HP to dead over the duration of a petrify because the class is designed to outlast and whittle down opponents, not line up a 1 sec burst of 20K damage that then procs a 6-8K auto execute that was applied before the burst even started.

What makes you assume you can beak out in 2.5 seconds but not in 5 seconds?

I was actually talking about how long each stun lasts if you don't break out. Petrify is only 2.5 seconds and Rune Cage was 5, now down to 3.5.

JPcrazysquirrel3

The other thing that bothers me about the Wizard's Riposte nerf is that ZOS didn't even bother giving a proper nerf to Sload's. It will still be a threat to magicka builds and they decided that a magicka class's one set to defend against Sload's was nerf worthy.

Sharee

JPcrazysquirrel3 wrote: »

The other thing that bothers me about the Wizard's Riposte nerf is that ZOS didn't even bother giving a proper nerf to Sload's. It will still be a threat to magicka builds and they decided that a magicka class's one set to defend against Sload's was nerf worthy.

God forbid an offensive set is a threat to anyone. Clearly, it wasn't nerfed properly yet.