PTS Patch Notes v4.1.2

preedb16_ESO2

technohic wrote: »

I really think all direct proc attacks should be reflectable. Only those that place an effect on the ground/AOE should not. So the harder ones to avoid can be sent back at the procer, while the easier to avoid is just that. Add a little risk for reward to these sets.

I read that as "I really think that DKs should be completely invulnerable to 90% of all damage in PVP,"..

Gimme a self-buff for my squishy NB that does:
"For 10 minutes, all enemies who target you and activates any type of harmful ability towards you instantly combusts in a ball of flame doing 100k damage to themselves and all enemies within 20m radius of them."

LOLs

technohic

preedb16_ESO2 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I really think all direct proc attacks should be reflectable. Only those that place an effect on the ground/AOE should not. So the harder ones to avoid can be sent back at the procer, while the easier to avoid is just that. Add a little risk for reward to these sets.

I read that as "I really think that DKs should be completely invulnerable to 90% of all damage in PVP,"..

Gimme a self-buff for my squishy NB that does:
"For 10 minutes, all enemies who target you and activates any type of harmful ability towards you instantly combusts in a ball of flame doing 100k damage to themselves and all enemies within 20m radius of them."

LOLs

Kind of a leap if you think direct PROC attacks are 90% of damage in PVP.

I don’t even have a DK leveled to use. It’s just a matter of consistency and the fact that other DKs are out there, it would benefit everyone else by making it a deep consideration when using those sets rather than just free damage.

Drdeath20

Jake1576 wrote: »

Wth does the Templar execute keep getting increased even more every time i read the patch notes it was nerfed before for a reason stop going and increasing the damage it does

Because 17k damage every second for 3 seconds is a DPS loss when your locked in a channel. The execute is suppose to execute.

After mitigation and battlespirit i could beam an opponent with 6k health left and they will outheal it.

Now when bosses drop to execute range my damage tics are around 25k.

NBrookus

preedb16_ESO2 wrote: »

For one, Fossilize, double-CC is, although only 8m or so range, more powerful.. DK's have gapclosers so the short range on it isn't really an issue(leap ulti, stam 2h gapcloser etc).. Plus when I get hit with it in non-cp(BGs etc), being a mag class I only have enough stamina to break out of the stun, I can't usually break from the immobilize part..

Then you need to manage your stam better or get more stam. Most classes have both hard ccs and roots and will use them both on you. It's just overhead for magicka classes that managing your stam is as important as your primary resource.

Also... using an ultimate that CCs as your gap closer so you can use a CC? Yea that doesn't work.

So DKs should be the only ones that should be able to reflect sloads you think?

Defensive stance and spell wall are available to everyone, and Warden has psuedo-reflect in Shimmering Shield.

If Sloads were reflectable and people were having to eat their own oblivion damage, you'd see a whole lot less of it overall even if you personally don't run a reflect.

JamesDX

dimensional wrote: »

JamesDX wrote: »

No DK changes? Disappointing...

maybe keep up with the development so you won't be disappointed. they already said they didn't have the time to work on all the changes presented by the class reps. and they actually have implemented some DK changes in the previous PTS patch so idk what to tell you

They might not have had time to work on all the changes but a buff to fiery breath by 100 damage per tick and a snare immunity on a skill that is almost never used anymore is laughable imo. I'd have preferred they look at the core issues for DK that are being mentioned in the dragonknight thread...

bpmachete

Overall really good patch notes from what I can see they addressed a lot of the issues and are making the game better. Now just please don't break the game with the coding of the next patch. Please fix the food not giving the health it used to give, seems like the 5-1-1 or Imperial/ Nord passives are calculating different and also in Cyrodiil 5k buff not reflecting the percentage boosts anymore (at least on my characters Xbox NA) The cross eyed glitch on the characters but the freezing is almost gone for that weird freeze the whole group would freeze just standing there. That was a good job and it is performing way better

_Ahala_

NBrookus wrote: »

preedb16_ESO2 wrote: »

For one, Fossilize, double-CC is, although only 8m or so range, more powerful.. DK's have gapclosers so the short range on it isn't really an issue(leap ulti, stam 2h gapcloser etc).. Plus when I get hit with it in non-cp(BGs etc), being a mag class I only have enough stamina to break out of the stun, I can't usually break from the immobilize part..

Then you need to manage your stam better or get more stam. Most classes have both hard ccs and roots and will use them both on you. It's just overhead for magicka classes that managing your stam is as important as your primary resource.

Also... using an ultimate that CCs as your gap closer so you can use a CC? Yea that doesn't work.

So DKs should be the only ones that should be able to reflect sloads you think?

Defensive stance and spell wall are available to everyone, and Warden has psuedo-reflect in Shimmering Shield.

If Sloads were reflectable and people were having to eat their own oblivion damage, you'd see a whole lot less of it overall even if you personally don't run a reflect.

Shimmering shield is not a reflect... your thinking of Icy Slab which is more akin to a more powerful ranged instead of melee volatile armor

IZZEFlameLash

preedb16_ESO2 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hey, its a pretty good start.

The revert change to runes damage means that it won't be slotted on most solo sorcs bars, since an only CC ability is quite a sacrifice, however its still a problem (and was when it was introduced) from groups pinning you with a buggy to break, 40m uncounterable CC.

Sloads projectile NEEDS to be reflectable. It is indeed a projectile, and adding yet another exception to wings shows bias. Especially since DK has nothing to combat it, unlike cloak/purge/roll. Tanks already have many counters in dots, doubly so for bleeds, unblockable on targets (like curse/potl) and many AoEs.

Or even better, just not stack. Have it refresh instead, since it is oblivion damage and PvP oriented. Then make the cooldown to proc per target (like wyrd tree) so it isn't useless.

You are the one that is seemingly bias towards DKs it seems
For one, Fossilize, double-CC is, although only 8m or so range, more powerful.. DK's have gapclosers so the short range on it isn't really an issue(leap ulti, stam 2h gapcloser etc).. Plus when I get hit with it in non-cp(BGs etc), being a mag class I only have enough stamina to break out of the stun, I can't usually break from the immobilize part..

So DKs should be the only ones that should be able to reflect sloads you think? Due to DK reflect, I am forced to one option when it comes to single target DD ability, force pulse, rather than the one I would prefer using(magblade funnel health, magplar Javelin, or Destructive Reach, among many other skills)... In the heat of battle I really can't tell if the target I am shooting at happens to be a DK, yeah I see the wings animation but that can also come up after I have fired off a spell.. For BGs I have just resorted to checking the player list before match begins, and if there is more than 1-2 DKs in the enemy teams, I swap to different gear(no master staff/reach etc) and abilitys, rather than making a fool out of myself and blowing myself up..

Reflect is really powerful, it reflects the highest damage abilitys there are, lethal arrow, crystal frags, merciless resolve proc etc.. And you are wondering why more and more are going with DOT builds..

The problem that has made Sloads the most toxic and hated set right now is mostly because of bugs that allows it to proc itself, proc from siege weapons etc..

Also one major issue is that there is no really good purge ability availible to everyone.. Purge/cleanse is really expensive to cast, even for magicka chars.. Hell, I never even use it myself on any of my mag characters.

And naturally, tanky characters that normally reduce DOT's like Burning into 100dmg/s mousefarts are now sadfaced because they are suddenly taking damage from DOTs and not just the rare ones who run oblivion glyph/sets..

So the NBs should be the only ones that can bypass Sload's completely, yes? With their Cloak suppressing that DoT even after getting hit. So, DKs and Templars shouls have their defensive reflect skills should have nothing they can reflect while NBs should keep the Cloak that force misses everything? What a good balance. /s

Hotdog_23

oops wrong thread, delete

Alfie2072

fix to sloads
make it unstackable & give it like a 4 second cooldown after the effect ends so we dont have back to back sloads

Merlin13KAGL

Change Sloads to scale up based on the armor class and max health of the receiving enemy. That way it affects high AC enemies like HA tanks (as it's supposedly intended to) and doesn't blast MA and LA wearers as hard as it currently does.

If it's supposed to be a set to help counter tanks, change is so it helps counter tanks, because presently, it does more damage to MA/LA users, percentage wise and less to heavy.

Kind of defeats the purpose behind the original 'proposed purpose,' does it not?

Ender1310

They are determined to keep the herp derp stun skill huh? Bah.

f047ys3v3n

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]At maximum rank of Plating Expertise, it now takes only a single piece of Terne Plating to go from white to green, two Iridium Platings to go from green to blue, three Zircon Platings to go from blue to purple, and only 4 Chromium Platings to go from purple to gold.
[/list]
[*]Jewelry Crafting Writs will no longer reward Terne, Iridium, or Zircon Grains. They will now only reward Chromium Grains, with the chance to obtain a Grain increasing with the rank of the Jewelry Crafting writ completed, similar to other durable trade skill writ rewards.
[/list]

Your math is still off btw.

Also, since I have never actually received a chromium grain from the top jewelry crafting writ, does this mean that you have actually added that to the table or that you just took the other stuff out of the table and I will get nothing at all?

Saturn

Qbiken wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

No WW adjustments for two PTS cycles, really? Is the plan to just leave it in shambles for another two years now? The timer is atrocious and Gilliam couldn’t even stay in form in a BG on your live stream.

I completely disagree. The timer is way better now... and they fixed so many issues with the werewelf (the fear is instant; the feed is over time, instead of all at once; you don't HAVE to take damage to stay in ww form). You can have 100% werewolf uptime in a fight lasting over 5 minutes without having to use the time-increasing leap. In a BG this means you have to still be super aggressive, but instead of seeking out damage (as you would with the old Blood Rage), you now seek to deal it, also it procs on dots, which means if you put your bleed on someone it will keep giving you time back in the form. I think it's fair to say that WW is in quite a good spot right now, potentially verging on game-breaking, if nothing is done about the ridiculous light-attack only builds for PvE.

Agree with the part of werewolfs being in a good spot. Gamebreaking? Not yet at least. From a PvP perspective werewolfs have lost a bit of damage. Simple reason is because you´ve to stack a bit more into health to get better use of the "new" heal, and by that sacrificing max stamina and weapon damage.

Regarding the light attack builds:
What you achieve on a target dummy isn´t always a good measurement of how good something can be in an actual raid-scenario. I don´t see end-game raiding guilds brining werewolfs to their raids aside from certain bossfights in the Craglorn trials. And these 50k light attack parses are extremely heavily carried by sets.

I sincerely hope ZOS doesn´t reduce werewolf light attack damage. Two reasons why:
1. Werewolfs got their light attack damage reduced in Summerset when they lost their unique 1,5x weapon damage modifier to their light attacks. If this was intentional or a bug is still a mystery. For me this was very noticeable in PvP where the light attacks are the primary source of my damage as a werewolf.

2. None of the PTS changes indicates that werewolfs got any changes that increased their damage output, but rather the opposite by loosing the 10% weapon damage bonus on Hircine´s Rage. Reducing light attack damage on werewolfs because of two overperforming sets isn´t a good move in opinion.

@Qbiken I never said they should reduce light attack damage, and yes the WW PvE build in question does rely heavily on sets.

You are mistaken if you don't think WWs wouldn't have a place (with this much damage) outside of Craglorn trials. I've often seen them on fights where burst dps is the focus, but they haven't been used in normal boss fights because of the poor uptime in battle, which is now 100% on 5min fights, and potentially even longer if the time-increasing leap is mixed into the rotation. The only trial where it wouldn't be BiS for stam is Asylum which punishes melee dps super hard, but melee builds in general aren't really used much in Asylum anyway. Maw, HoF and CR have very few punishing mechanics for melee setups, with Maw and CR forcing groups to bunch up near the bosses. All of these trials (plus the craglorn ones) heavily reward dps, because it enables you to skip mechanics. And while dummy parses don't = trial dps, you can usually always expect more dps in groups that have high uptimes on buffs, and in this case you don't have to rely on proper rotation form to achieve it (which is easier on a static target dummy than a moving boss fight) as all you are doing is spamming light attacks.

10% damage was removed with the alteration of the morph, which takes away 5-600 weapon damage on builds that could achieve ~9k weapon damage with sets and no group buffs, but with the quality-of-life improvements made to the operation of the WW mechanics + the instant cast change to the fear, the damage will no doubt be greater. To add onto this, the heal is now far better, which is, at minimum, 49% of your max health (not sure if it can crit), which is several times more than its previous scaling with magicka, that forced you into hybrid builds to achieve good heals. Even if only 25% in PvP, it is still a lot of healing, which can be easily buffed with CP and set passives, just like Dragon Blood, but without the "% of missing health" bit, which makes it far better than its previous iteration.

All in all I think WWs received a major buff, and while I agree that lowering light attack damage shouldn't be the solution to fix the ridiculous PvE DPS they can now achieve (nerfing Blood Moon would be the best course of action), I have to stress just how absolutely devastating this would be to the PvE scene if left as it is on the PTS. It would entirely take away skillful play from stam dps, with the only barriers for entry being: three sets that can be farmed easily and one's natural resistance to carpal tunnel. We're talking at least 45k single target dps by just spamming light attacks. If you don't recognise that as terrible for the health of the endgame community, then just wait and see what happens if it goes live like this..

Mystrius_Archaion

Jake1576 wrote: »

Wth does the Templar execute keep getting increased even more every time i read the patch notes it was nerfed before for a reason stop going and increasing the damage it does

Opportunity Cost is why.
It was nerfed so badly before that spamming Dark Flare was much better damage with less risk, but now that Summerset buffed light and heavy attacks it is even lower dps than weaving anything really, even when the execute bonus damage kicks in.

It actually needs a big base damage buff, but at least the execute damage will make it useful in some situations, maybe.

RGD

Just removing the damage from Rune Cage is NOT enough to appease everyone nor create balance. The damage isn't really the issue, often you die quicker than the ability can damage you because you can't break free with FULL stamina and you're stuck defenceless for 5 seconds against 2 executes weaves and other players. I'm sorry, I love ESO but whoever is in charge of balance is really not listening or is incapable of actually abiding by the job title.

People have said time and time again, the damage is NOT the problem, it's the 40m range, break free being totally busted and the unblockable/undodgable nature of the skill, ESPECIALLY on a class which is so strong for many different reasons. How about trying this: make it dodgable, reduce the range to 8 or 10 meters, remove the damage all together or reduce it to around 1500. There's other nerf options for balance purposes, too, you could make it so when you take X amount of damage the CC breaks automatically.

I've even heard of people saying they'd rather have the stun back on Crystal Fragments and nerfing Rune Cage purely because Crystal Frags with a stun had the key word attached to it that Rune Cage doesn't: counter-play.

Please, ZOS. Wisen up and do something more than nerfing the damage to Rune Cage, I can't bear another 3 months or so of pvp with no significant changes to the most broken stuff, and I haven't even mentioned Sloads. Plz nerf rune cage properly b4 wolfhunter goes live.

Mystrius_Archaion

Saturn wrote: »

All in all I think WWs received a major buff, and while I agree that lowering light attack damage shouldn't be the solution to fix the ridiculous PvE DPS they can now achieve (nerfing Blood Moon would be the best course of action), I have to stress just how absolutely devastating this would be to the PvE scene if left as it is on the PTS. It would entirely take away skillful play from stam dps, with the only barriers for entry being: three sets that can be farmed easily and one's natural resistance to carpal tunnel. We're talking at least 45k single target dps by just spamming light attacks. If you don't recognise that as terrible for the health of the endgame community, then just wait and see what happens if it goes live like this..

Actually, it's good for the "health of the endgame community" by bringing in more players who now can hit the dps numbers that would normally get them excluded from endgame groups by default.
Suddenly, the 1% looks like it may grow to a higher number.

Saturn

itscompton wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Rune Cage is pretty much reverted to pre summerset. So everyone can stop complaining about a skill that wasn't complained about for the 6 months prior.

Not really. Old RC was dodgeable and it would break on the next direct damage.

In crowded fights it basically meant free CC immunity for the enemy

There was a (brief) period of time when Rune Cage had no damage, but functioned as a stun. You probably don't remember it because everyone was using Fire Reach, instead.

People weren't using it because it didn't last for a broken OP 5 seconds, not because it had no damage.

How is it broken exactly? It works like Petrify, with just worse morph choices and longer ranged, yet no one complains about that skill.

Not even close, Rune Cage last 2X as long as petrify and is being wielded by a class designed around bursting opponents down in a small window. At 2.5 seconds a character with 25-28K resistance and 25K health has a chance to survive that burst if the Sorc doesn't line it up perfectly, but when the Sorc gets another 2.5 seconds of free damage it gives the Sorc a big enough margin of error so that same character gets melted almost every time. And DK is almost never going to burst that same character down from 100% HP to dead over the duration of a petrify because the class is designed to tank damage and whittle down opponents with dots.

@itscompton Everyone is talking about stun duration, but you are usually dead if you can't break free, whether it's 2.5s or 5s. And usually when people don't break my petrify they die because of it. DKs can have a lot more burst than you think.

Saturn

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

All in all I think WWs received a major buff, and while I agree that lowering light attack damage shouldn't be the solution to fix the ridiculous PvE DPS they can now achieve (nerfing Blood Moon would be the best course of action), I have to stress just how absolutely devastating this would be to the PvE scene if left as it is on the PTS. It would entirely take away skillful play from stam dps, with the only barriers for entry being: three sets that can be farmed easily and one's natural resistance to carpal tunnel. We're talking at least 45k single target dps by just spamming light attacks. If you don't recognise that as terrible for the health of the endgame community, then just wait and see what happens if it goes live like this..

Actually, it's good for the "health of the endgame community" by bringing in more players who now can hit the dps numbers that would normally get them excluded from endgame groups by default.
Suddenly, the 1% looks like it may grow to a higher number.

@Mystrius_Archaion
Having no skill curve isn't a good thing. Because the end result is that people beat content too quickly for new stuff to arrive and subsequently quit the game. Games whose PvP and PvE endgame communities thrive, do so because there's a progression and something to work towards. If a player with no time invested in a build can beat someone who has spent a long time min/max'ing everything, that is a bad thing.

EDIT: The reason why people call the endgame community "the 1%" is because ZOS actively nurtures a mainly casual audience, and pretty much *** over the entire endgame community once or twice a year. Getting into the endgame scene in ESO isn't any different from most other MMOs, it's just that ZOS don't actively encourage players to become better, so it ends up being only people who enjoy challenges and the prestige of beating something, which in turn creates a super elitist crowd. ZOS constantly rewards and validates its casual audience to such a point that if you start playing the game seriously, you will no longer feel like your voice is listened to and that's why the endgame community is the size it is, not because it's actually difficult to do endgame content. The main challenge in running challenging content is usually always finding enough warm bodies to fill the seats, lol.

Qbiken

@Saturn

Here´s what I wrote in the WW-Feedback thread after fooling around on the PTS for s a while. Should clarify my views on things

My take on the werewolf changes so far after testing things on the PTS:

PvE
I think most of us have seen the 50k solo parses on target dummies. While it seems to be very un-balanced at first glance, I don´t see werewolfs being a part of the end-game "meta" anytime soon. Here is why:

• The parses are heavily carried by sets. Especially Blood Moon and Relequen. Replacing one or both of these sets drastically reduces your DPS. And from what I´ve heard Relequen will receive some treatment.
• Mechanics in veteran dungeons doesn´t make werewolf desirable. I can see werewolfs being used in certain bossfights in the Craglorn trials. But in DLC/Chapter trials I would be surprised if werewolf were to replace a non-werewolf stamblade, stamsorc, stamDK or stamplar.
• No changes in the PTS notes indicates that werewolfs got any buffs to their overall damage output, aside for the pets from the "Pack Leader" morph (which will probably spend more time being dead than alive in most vTrials). So that again leaves us to the conclusion that certain sets are the main cause of the incredibly amount of DPS we can achieve.

I think the changes that was made to werewolfs was a nice step to make them viable for more things than just PvP. I´m sure some end-game raiding guild will utilize werewolfs on certain bossfights and make good use of it, but I don´t think werewolfs are unbalanced in their current state regarding PvE. Tweak overperforming sets and we´re good to go.

PvP
Skills & Passives

• Werewolf ultimate: Nice to see that the "hidden stats" of being a werewolf are more clear. Great job here. Nice to see bug-fixes being made to the Pack leader morph. There´s however a quite significant bug with this morph that needs to be adressed ASAP. If @ZOS_GinaBruno or anyone else from the developer team could contact me I´ll provide information about this.
• Pounce: I must say I´m disappointed that Brutal Pounce didn´t get any other treatment than it did. Would be nice to see some minor/major buff attached to it, or maybe even a short snare immunity after. I personally don´t see any reason why you wouldn´t pick Feral Pounce. Would also like to see minimum distance being increased so that you always know that you´ll get extra seconds to your werewolf timer when jumping.
• Hircine´s Rage: Oboy did this change have a huge impact on things. While I know we asked for a choice between more damage and better survivability, I didn´t expect this. The loss of the 10% extra weapon-damage from Hircine´s Rage is noticeable. Now that it scales of health certain builds will thrive with this change. I think most people will run with the Hircine´s Fortitude morph and try to get major brutality from other sources (potions or Igneous weapons from a DK).
• Roar: Really dislike that Major Brutality was removed from this skill. While most non-werewolf stamina builds have a source of major brutality, it was still a nice feature as a werewolf being able to provide that to a group. Deafening Roar is an interesting skill, but I still think off-balance is a more powerful tool than major fracture. And the fact that major fracture isn't applied unless your target is feared doesn´t make the morph more attractive. Also like that Roar is instantly casted, will increase survivability in PvP for sure.
• Howl: While I understand why the stun was removed I really dislike it. Will make it significantly harder to catch fleeing enemies. Werewolfs have no snares attached to their skilline and their only stun requires the target to be in melee range. The change to Howl of Despair is nice for PvE, but don´t see it being too useful in PvP, but a nice change anyway.
• Infectious Claws: No comment here really. Noticed that the duration of major defile attached to Claws of Anguish was reduced to 4 seconds. Probably to match the duration of other defile-debuffs, however I didn´t see any information about this in the initial patch notes.
• Werewolf Passives. Bloodrage passive change is nice for PvE and will require you to play more aggressive in PvP. While I personally would like to see Bloodrage proc from both taking damage and dealing damage, I see the change as a buff for PvP. I would also like to see Call of the Pack being brought back to it´s "permawolf" state. But that´s more of a "wishful thinking" idea.

I see some people suggesting that werewolfs need to have their damage reduced (especially with the PvE parses in mind). From my time on the PTS I can tell you that werewolfs have lost quite a lot of damage output (strictly speaking of PvP). If you want to get more out of your heal you´re required to invest more into your max HP, and our heal still costs magicka. You therefore need a decent amount of magicka recovery. Investing into HP and magicka recovery leads to less max stamina, and less weapon damage. So the PvP werewolf has increased their survivability, but at the cost of loosing a bit of their damage potential.


Will we see a werewolf meta?

Yes.

But not necessary because "they´re OP and needs nerfing", but because we´ll have a DLC that is focused on werewolfs. If we ever have a vampire focused DLC in the future I´m quite certainly we will have a vampire meta for a while.

Saturn

RGD wrote: »

Just removing the damage from Rune Cage is NOT enough to appease everyone nor create balance. The damage isn't really the issue, often you die quicker than the ability can damage you because you can't break free with FULL stamina and you're stuck defenceless for 5 seconds against 2 executes weaves and other players. I'm sorry, I love ESO but whoever is in charge of balance is really not listening or is incapable of actually abiding by the job title.

People have said time and time again, the damage is NOT the problem, it's the 40m range, break free being totally busted and the unblockable/undodgable nature of the skill, ESPECIALLY on a class which is so strong for many different reasons. How about trying this: make it dodgable, reduce the range to 8 or 10 meters, remove the damage all together or reduce it to around 1500. There's other nerf options for balance purposes, too, you could make it so when you take X amount of damage the CC breaks automatically.

I've even heard of people saying they'd rather have the stun back on Crystal Fragments and nerfing Rune Cage purely because Crystal Frags with a stun had the key word attached to it that Rune Cage doesn't: counter-play.

Please, ZOS. Wisen up and do something more than nerfing the damage to Rune Cage, I can't bear another 3 months or so of pvp with no significant changes to the most broken stuff, and I haven't even mentioned Sloads. Plz nerf rune cage properly b4 wolfhunter goes live.

So, basically what the problem with Rune Cage boils down to are 1) people not being able to break free because the game is buggy (which, keep in mind, isn't exclusively a problem with rune cage) and 2) people not being able to break free because they run very little stam. The counter-play to Rune Cage is break-free, just like with any other skills that works like it. I think people are complaining about Rune Cage, because it shows them how poorly resource-managed their setups are, and because it's a sorc skill. There are several other abilities that perform the same way with slight variations, but for some reason people only complain about this one skill. If you wanted to keep it more in line with the other abilities that do the same thing, then you could lower the range, but removing the undodgeable portion would be overkill and remove a necessary tool in the sorcerer's arsenal.

In reality the skill isn't really much of an issue, but it's currently being focused on because it's the new hot topic, regardless of its actual negative impact on game balance. As I've said several times before, as well as others on this thread, Rune Cage is worse than Fossilize in pretty much all regards except for range, but no one complains about Fossilize for some reason.

In a balanced fight with a sorcerer, it's rare you would lose because of Rune Cage (if your setup actually has more than 8k stam, so you can break free more than once before running out), unless it was used strategically to stun you when you were low on health or a nasty combo of skills was used on you, which literally any other stun could also accomplish (which is why a lot of sorcs run dawnbreaker for pvp too, cause it can be animation cancelled easily while you weave). In all the years I have been PvP'ing, and especially recently, I have never been hit with a Rune Cage at max health and then been dead, unless it was some kind of 1vX scenario or fighting against groups that are really good at focusing in on you, which would usually kill you anyway.

I think Steel Tornado being undodgeable is a far bigger problem honestly, since there are so many setups that just run Dawnbreaker and Spin-To-Win and absolutely slay, cause the only counter is perma-blocking, which leaves everyone but the tanks completely buggered.

I don't wanna say L2P, but a lot of these comments about this skill sound a lot like the complaining of people who only have themselves to blame for their lack of thought-out builds. I've PvPed with a lot of players far better than me, and I rarely hear anyone complain about Rune Cage because it's rarely a problem. I have also PvPed with a lot of sorcs, and I've used a sorc for a bit myself, and Rune Cage isn't as strong as people make it seem. In most scenarios people break free from it in the first second 90% of the time. Just like Fossilize and other similar stuns, it's really good for locking down fleeing opponents, putting pressure on someone's stam management or finishing off someone by stunning them when low. If it truly was such an omnipotent skill as everyone seems to repeatedly claim, then I might agree to this outrage, but it's not.

TLDR: I think this whole "issue" is completely blown out of proportion and mostly boils down to people not running intelligent setups, since otherwise I can't really fathom why everyone would keep mentioning "having to be stunned for 5s" since you usually would immediately break free from it.

Saturn

Qbiken wrote: »

@Saturn

Here´s what I wrote in the WW-Feedback thread after fooling around on the PTS for s a while. Should clarify my views on things

My take on the werewolf changes so far after testing things on the PTS:

PvE
I think most of us have seen the 50k solo parses on target dummies. While it seems to be very un-balanced at first glance, I don´t see werewolfs being a part of the end-game "meta" anytime soon. Here is why:

• The parses are heavily carried by sets. Especially Blood Moon and Relequen. Replacing one or both of these sets drastically reduces your DPS. And from what I´ve heard Relequen will receive some treatment.
• Mechanics in veteran dungeons doesn´t make werewolf desirable. I can see werewolfs being used in certain bossfights in the Craglorn trials. But in DLC/Chapter trials I would be surprised if werewolf were to replace a non-werewolf stamblade, stamsorc, stamDK or stamplar.
• No changes in the PTS notes indicates that werewolfs got any buffs to their overall damage output, aside for the pets from the "Pack Leader" morph (which will probably spend more time being dead than alive in most vTrials). So that again leaves us to the conclusion that certain sets are the main cause of the incredibly amount of DPS we can achieve.

I think the changes that was made to werewolfs was a nice step to make them viable for more things than just PvP. I´m sure some end-game raiding guild will utilize werewolfs on certain bossfights and make good use of it, but I don´t think werewolfs are unbalanced in their current state regarding PvE. Tweak overperforming sets and we´re good to go.

PvP
Skills & Passives

• Werewolf ultimate: Nice to see that the "hidden stats" of being a werewolf are more clear. Great job here. Nice to see bug-fixes being made to the Pack leader morph. There´s however a quite significant bug with this morph that needs to be adressed ASAP. If @ZOS_GinaBruno or anyone else from the developer team could contact me I´ll provide information about this.
• Pounce: I must say I´m disappointed that Brutal Pounce didn´t get any other treatment than it did. Would be nice to see some minor/major buff attached to it, or maybe even a short snare immunity after. I personally don´t see any reason why you wouldn´t pick Feral Pounce. Would also like to see minimum distance being increased so that you always know that you´ll get extra seconds to your werewolf timer when jumping.
• Hircine´s Rage: Oboy did this change have a huge impact on things. While I know we asked for a choice between more damage and better survivability, I didn´t expect this. The loss of the 10% extra weapon-damage from Hircine´s Rage is noticeable. Now that it scales of health certain builds will thrive with this change. I think most people will run with the Hircine´s Fortitude morph and try to get major brutality from other sources (potions or Igneous weapons from a DK).
• Roar: Really dislike that Major Brutality was removed from this skill. While most non-werewolf stamina builds have a source of major brutality, it was still a nice feature as a werewolf being able to provide that to a group. Deafening Roar is an interesting skill, but I still think off-balance is a more powerful tool than major fracture. And the fact that major fracture isn't applied unless your target is feared doesn´t make the morph more attractive. Also like that Roar is instantly casted, will increase survivability in PvP for sure.
• Howl: While I understand why the stun was removed I really dislike it. Will make it significantly harder to catch fleeing enemies. Werewolfs have no snares attached to their skilline and their only stun requires the target to be in melee range. The change to Howl of Despair is nice for PvE, but don´t see it being too useful in PvP, but a nice change anyway.
• Infectious Claws: No comment here really. Noticed that the duration of major defile attached to Claws of Anguish was reduced to 4 seconds. Probably to match the duration of other defile-debuffs, however I didn´t see any information about this in the initial patch notes.
• Werewolf Passives. Bloodrage passive change is nice for PvE and will require you to play more aggressive in PvP. While I personally would like to see Bloodrage proc from both taking damage and dealing damage, I see the change as a buff for PvP. I would also like to see Call of the Pack being brought back to it´s "permawolf" state. But that´s more of a "wishful thinking" idea.

I see some people suggesting that werewolfs need to have their damage reduced (especially with the PvE parses in mind). From my time on the PTS I can tell you that werewolfs have lost quite a lot of damage output (strictly speaking of PvP). If you want to get more out of your heal you´re required to invest more into your max HP, and our heal still costs magicka. You therefore need a decent amount of magicka recovery. Investing into HP and magicka recovery leads to less max stamina, and less weapon damage. So the PvP werewolf has increased their survivability, but at the cost of loosing a bit of their damage potential.


Will we see a werewolf meta?

Yes.

But not necessary because "they´re OP and needs nerfing", but because we´ll have a DLC that is focused on werewolfs. If we ever have a vampire focused DLC in the future I´m quite certainly we will have a vampire meta for a while.

@Qbiken
I still disagree.

Bloodrage passive change is nice for PvE and will require you to play more aggressive in PvP.

This is already the case for PvP, and since you can proc Blood Rage off of dots the uptime will be a lot better. I can maintain 100% uptime in the form in a BG if I jump straight back into combat when I ress, and that won't change following this. For Cyrodiil it'll work the same way more or less, but the main change is there's no longer a reliance on taking damage as opposed to dealing it, which overall is a good improvement.

You keep talking about the lack of 10% from Hircine's Rage as a very negative thing, and while 10% isn't something to scoff at, the overall changes makes the WW more survivable (better heal, reliant AoE CC that can hit 5-6 targets, easier control of timer so you don't run out of the form in combat when no one's hitting you, etc.). Currently on Live the only thing WWs have going for them is aggressive damage builds, because their survivability is crap when not using a hybrid build to maximise healing and because you can't rely on the fear to save you in a clutch situation because of its interruptable psuedo cast-time. For all the improvements we'll get I'll glad give up those 10%, because overall my WW will be stronger.

Also, the removal of the stun from the Howl isn't actually that bad now since the fear can be used effectively, and thereby making the 30% extra damage on feared targets from the Despair morph useful. For PvP your main damage dealer is usually your howl to stun and then spamming light attacks when someone's down. Well, now you can reliably cast an unblockable, undodgeable, unreflectable AoE CC that procs extra damage from your howl and introduces a lot more skillful play to the WW, as opposed to your howl just being a Major Brutality buff and a skill 98% useless in actual combat, even more so if you have any kind of high latency.


As for the PvE, yes, it's reliant on Relequen and any changes to that set might negatively effect the PvE DPS a WW can dish out. The thing I'm referring to is: if there are no nerfs to reign in the ridiculousness of the 45-55k light-attack-only WW build, then it'd be a bad thing. If that setup is nerfed WW won't become the new BiS stam setup, but will at least be better than in the past, which is what I hope ends up happening. I'd like to know what mechanics makes a werewolf bad for PvE, because there are only a few I can think of, such as forced range dps, which is crippling to any melee build. As I mentioned in my previous reply to you, WWs only problem on Live right now is it's poor uptime, not it's lack of utility as a dps in a boss fight. The limits that WW has on Live will all be fixed with the change to Blood Rage. In all functions it is the same as any kind of stamina melee dps, just with a much easier rotation, faster speed, gap-closer (which most stam dps don't run), solid heal, etc. It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see WWs running backyard in Maw or Bottom in CR, since they are far better equipped than standard stam dps and are only surpassed in burst by stam NB.

I get the feeling you will probably stick with your opinion, but please just keep my words in mind when Wolfhunter hits Live.

ChiknAriseMcFro

Has this patch gone live? Incap doesn't seem to be stunning people about 90% of the time.

Qbiken

This is already the case for PvP, and since you can proc Blood Rage off of dots the uptime will be a lot better. I can maintain 100% uptime in the form in a BG if I jump straight back into combat when I ress, and that won't change following this. For Cyrodiil it'll work the same way more or less, but the main change is there's no longer a reliance on taking damage as opposed to dealing it, which overall is a good improvement.

I didn't necessary implied the change to Bloodrage was a bad one, I actually enjoy it
Using the same setup/builds/gear/playstyle constantly becomes dull, so I embrace the change.

You keep talking about the lack of 10% from Hircine's Rage as a very negative thing, and while 10% isn't something to scoff at, the overall changes makes the WW more survivable (better heal, reliant AoE CC that can hit 5-6 targets, easier control of timer so you don't run out of the form in combat when no one's hitting you, etc.). Currently on Live the only thing WWs have going for them is aggressive damage builds, because their survivability is crap when not using a hybrid build to maximise healing and because you can't rely on the fear to save you in a clutch situation because of its interruptable psuedo cast-time. For all the improvements we'll get I'll glad give up those 10%, because overall my WW will be stronger.

It´s not the end of the world with the loss of 10% weapon damage. Trading that for the extra survivability with the new way the healing works is a good trade. I get why the change was made, don´t get me wrong, but one can always dislike some changes without seeing it as a "big nerf"

Also, the removal of the stun from the Howl isn't actually that bad now since the fear can be used effectively, and thereby making the 30% extra damage on feared targets from the Despair morph useful. For PvP your main damage dealer is usually your howl to stun and then spamming light attacks when someone's down. Well, now you can reliably cast an unblockable, undodgeable, unreflectable AoE CC that procs extra damage from your howl and introduces a lot more skillful play to the WW, as opposed to your howl just being a Major Brutality buff and a skill 98% useless in actual combat, even more so if you have any kind of high latency.

The changes to Roar are amazing, I´m not going to argue with you there, even though it will take a while for me to get used to it no having it´s "pseudo cast-time". Roar was already un-dodgable, unblockade and unreflectable (howl is still reflectable tho ) so nothing really changed there so the combo of Roar + Howl will remain the same
And major brutality is quite accessible through potions or having a DK in your group using igneous weapons.

I see where your concerns for "PvE META" werewolfs and I´m not saying you´re wrong with those concerns. I think we´ll have to wait and see how it turns out.

Merlin13KAGL

Regarding the new monster set:

Why don't they just lower ult Cap to 250 on everything but Overload? (Or lower it across the board and cut overload cost in half?)

There is zero reason (aside from this set, four years later) to have "extra ult."

Ult has never worked intuitively anyway. I remember when I first started playing, I expected the skill to hit harder the more you stored.

Saturn

Qbiken wrote: »

Also, the removal of the stun from the Howl isn't actually that bad now since the fear can be used effectively, and thereby making the 30% extra damage on feared targets from the Despair morph useful. For PvP your main damage dealer is usually your howl to stun and then spamming light attacks when someone's down. Well, now you can reliably cast an unblockable, undodgeable, unreflectable AoE CC that procs extra damage from your howl and introduces a lot more skillful play to the WW, as opposed to your howl just being a Major Brutality buff and a skill 98% useless in actual combat, even more so if you have any kind of high latency.

The changes to Roar are amazing, I´m not going to argue with you there, even though it will take a while for me to get used to it no having it´s "pseudo cast-time". Roar was already un-dodgable, unblockade and unreflectable (howl is still reflectable tho ) so nothing really changed there so the combo of Roar + Howl will remain the same
And major brutality is quite accessible through potions or having a DK in your group using igneous weapons.

@Qbiken
Sorry, I actually meant to write: since the fear will become more realiable, you'll probably end up using that before howl anyway, so the knockdown stun wouldn't matter anyway. Currently on live I don't even use the roar to fear people, since it never goes off in time because of my 200+ ping and its cast-time. Also, what I meant by the "undodgable, unblockade and unreflectable" was that it probably would be used before howl more consistently and thereby be a direct upgrade in terms of effective CC. Though I do kind of wish that the howl still stunned, since I liked that for chasing people down, but yeah, can't have everything. You can get Brutality through one of the heal morphs, which I'll probably end up choosing over the better heal morph, since I'm a cheapskate when it comes to potions.

helediron

The jewelry crafftin changes are still just cosmetic tweakings.
- Golden requirements halved. Needs four platins instead of eight. This means each master writ needs 40 grains.
- Legendary master writs give now over 200 vouchers. I got 230 and 240 vouchers master writs.
- Chromium grains drop occasionally. I got two grains from ten writs. Straight calculation gives that i need to do 5 * 40 = 200 writs for each legendary master writs.

Jewelry master writs are no longer twenty times more expensive than others, they are five times more expensive. Because JC is just a copy-pasted fro old crafts, there should be no cost difference. Legendary JC material gaining and master writs are still badly out of balance. Shortly said, this patch does not fix JC.

NBrookus

ChiknAriseMcFro wrote: »

Has this patch gone live? Incap doesn't seem to be stunning people about 90% of the time.

No, it's not live yet.

But immov potions are selling lot hotcakes.

Juhasow

Still no changes for brainless 50k+ WW light attack spam ?

Qbiken

Juhasow wrote: »

Still no changes for brainless 50k+ WW light attack spam ?

Bloodmoon and relequen will most likely get some treatment before live.