-->[Unnecessary Health on Dungeon Bosses]<--

Asardes

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

Oh look a casual carebear scrub JK JK tho I do admit we could do with more heavily mechanics based enemies, like have a super weak enemy with 100k health but with mechanics that catch players off guard

vMA: enemies with low HP but very high damage abilities ;

DaveMoeDee

NeetoCheeto1 wrote: »

-->[Unnecessary Health on Dungeon Bosses]<--

It isn't that fun to spam 5 buttons for 15 mins on one boss
The health is way to high for 4 man group of newbs

Get better so your DPS isn't crap. Or wait before doing vet dungeons until then. Because the bosses just melt when DPS gets high.

Which bosses are we talking about?

If it takes forever and you aren't wiping with 4 noobs, that seems like poor design. If it takes forever because your DPS sucks but a good tank and healer keep people alive, I don't know how that gets remedied. Do you prefer that instead of taking forever to burn through the health, you just can't finish the dungeon because you keep wiping because every boss has a dps race or some sort of timer? If not, then you will run into situations where the healer and tank can keep the group going, but the crap dps can't take the boss out in a reasonable amount of time. Pick your poison.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NeetoCheeto1 wrote: »

-->[Unnecessary Health on Dungeon Bosses]<--

It isn't that fun to spam 5 buttons for 15 mins on one boss

Why mmorpg genre is dying, in a nutshell.

This is not an ESO specific issue. All MMORPGs I've played since wow had this very same issue.

I'm more a fan of spamming buttons than sweating with blocks and break free and interrupts. I hate rock/paper/scissors mechanics, especially when they're far too common on even the weakest enemies and not even done as good as other examples I have seen.

I game to relax with optional challenges, not be annoyed by piranhas.

A good PvE experience should do a lot more than just asking you to mash some buttons in the correct order. That is just repetetive and anti-fun. Positioning, exploiting enemy weakness,stealth mechanics, learning enemy AI patterns and so many other stuff that should be there, is missing in ESO PvE.
...

Seems to me that it is there in DLC dungeons. You know, the ones the bulk of the player base avoid.

While the base game vet dungeons feel trivial to me at this point, I know I sucked at them two years ago and put off returning to them until May. While even trash mobs take a while to die with fake DDs, I'll take that to people who don't know how to break free in Direfrost Keep.

DaveMoeDee

Seri wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

As for Plague Doctor... @Doctordarkspawn

This is just one... ONE boss with high health.

Also, you forgot to mention that there are mechanics involved in that fight where you get enormous ultimate generation, making it for a quicker kill.

While comparing this boss to Xal Nur, which fight do you think takes longer?

EDIT: Plague Doctor takes less than two minutes to kill.

Still lazy design, and criticism of it for being so isn't wrong.

Xal-Nur had actual depth to it, as much depth as an MMO boss can have. Mortieu has a fairly forced mechanic that puts strain on one third of the holy trinity and the rest on rapid DPS.

By your own admission, it takes less than two minutes, it's a DPS race, which makes the high health all the more insulting. That ZOS cant program a bossfight that's more then a straight DPS race that they need to inflate the health pool to a point where it has to matter.

And that says far more about ZOS then the people critisizing ZOS. As much as you seem to hate them for merely speaking an opinion.

Its not a dps race, it has the mechanics. -_-

Mechanics that, clearly, didn't warrant enough player involvement or incentive -not- to burn them, given it apparently needed 10M health.

I was also slightly surprised to see that boss with 10mil health the first time. I can only assume ZOS wanted the mechanics to play out without having 'down time'. Say the first mechanic happens, the NPCs have dialog, you kill the imps (from memory?), and then the NPC grabs the resources, spends more time making an antidote/potion and then provides it to you in the middle of the room. It'd be a pretty boring fight if he was completely invulnerable during the poison phases until an antidote was ready. On the other hand, if it was only invulnerable until the first two scamps died, then there's enough forced NPC dialog during the 'potion mixing and distribution' phase (a good 10-15s) that you can get out a bunch of dmg. Then add the mechanic of the extra guard spawning after each antidote, _and_ that ZOS probably wanted most people to experience the different versions, at minimum of 5 mil starts to become understandable.

I seem to recall places like the flesh sculptor in ICP never used to go invulnerable to start with either? IIRC it was only added once DPS increased enough to burn through?

Never noticed the health was high. I was busy getting poison up my tush.

starkerealm

Seri wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

As for Plague Doctor... @Doctordarkspawn

This is just one... ONE boss with high health.

Also, you forgot to mention that there are mechanics involved in that fight where you get enormous ultimate generation, making it for a quicker kill.

While comparing this boss to Xal Nur, which fight do you think takes longer?

EDIT: Plague Doctor takes less than two minutes to kill.

Still lazy design, and criticism of it for being so isn't wrong.

Xal-Nur had actual depth to it, as much depth as an MMO boss can have. Mortieu has a fairly forced mechanic that puts strain on one third of the holy trinity and the rest on rapid DPS.

By your own admission, it takes less than two minutes, it's a DPS race, which makes the high health all the more insulting. That ZOS cant program a bossfight that's more then a straight DPS race that they need to inflate the health pool to a point where it has to matter.

And that says far more about ZOS then the people critisizing ZOS. As much as you seem to hate them for merely speaking an opinion.

Its not a dps race, it has the mechanics. -_-

Mechanics that, clearly, didn't warrant enough player involvement or incentive -not- to burn them, given it apparently needed 10M health.

I was also slightly surprised to see that boss with 10mil health the first time. I can only assume ZOS wanted the mechanics to play out without having 'down time'. Say the first mechanic happens, the NPCs have dialog, you kill the imps (from memory?), and then the NPC grabs the resources, spends more time making an antidote/potion and then provides it to you in the middle of the room. It'd be a pretty boring fight if he was completely invulnerable during the poison phases until an antidote was ready. On the other hand, if it was only invulnerable until the first two scamps died, then there's enough forced NPC dialog during the 'potion mixing and distribution' phase (a good 10-15s) that you can get out a bunch of dmg. Then add the mechanic of the extra guard spawning after each antidote, _and_ that ZOS probably wanted most people to experience the different versions, at minimum of 5 mil starts to become understandable.

I seem to recall places like the flesh sculptor in ICP never used to go invulnerable to start with either? IIRC it was only added once DPS increased enough to burn through?

As far as I know, the point of continuing to burn him through the Attronach phase was always to cull out the Attros before they could enrage. With enough damage, they'd just melt in the AoEs and could be safely ignored, it wasn't about trying to melt him before he got through. That said, I took a break from the game when Imperial City launched, because I was suffering from horrible load screens, so, if he didn't have immunity for a couple patches, I could have missed that.

Cryptical

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Oh yeah... @Doctordarkspawn

"Bosses have too much heath" is suuuuuuch constructive feedback.

Which bosses have too much health?

And how much is your DPS?

Once we have those two CRUCIAL pieces of information, then we can talk constructively.

Until then...

Stop whining.

The one example off the top of my head is Plague Concoctor Mortieu, who has ten mil health and a mechanically heavy bossfight. It spews poison alot, demands split-second positioning of the tank in a way no other boss does and holds the fight up itself alot by making the DPS murder adds for reagents so they can stop the horrific poison damage meaning the health pool is going to feel twice as long as it actually is.

And none. I'm a tank. For the sake of example assume each DPS is pulling at least 20 so I dont want to kill myself. That's 40 per second at optimal conditions.

And I really dont expect you to be constructive reguardless of what information I give, especially since you're still spewing insults and presuming I'm whining because you dont actually care about the topic whatsoever. So please. Suprise me.

Hell, I'll even give you a counter-example of what and why a good health set is. Xal-Nur. Xal-Nur has around 2M 400K health. S'rather small. It's also a mechanic heavy fight where the game deliberately makes him invincible so you must do mechanics in order to not make him last all of a few minutes. It's a time where mechanics that deliberately hold up the fight have a health pool that both suggests and compliments this style as opposed to Mortieu which just holds the players up for a half hour. One clearly had thought and purpose put into it's design, the other clearly had a lack thereof and a large health pool to compensate. Puting pressure on one part of the trinity to perform is one thing, just making them do it for longer for no real reason is another.

I’ve been in fights on the plague doctor where there were only 2 antidote phases.

karekiz

If your talking about the Poisoner in scale caller hold ults <have healer use destro ult too btw> -> Wait till antidote spawns -> All drop ults on boss with war horn -> Tank pull add into AoE ults -> Rinse and repeat.

The antidote if I recall boosts dmg and ult regen if you stand in it <You get a message when you stand there>. Thats my guess on him being 10 mil HP <More than Bloodroot HM> as a non end boss. Your just meant to burst him at points. I think we usually kill him after 3 poison cycles in my regular group.

Runefang

Consider that vAA HM is cleared in 15 minutes by the top end groups.

If a boss fight alone is taking 15 minutes it's something you need to learn to overcome, not a fault in the amount of health the boss has.

Danksta

Dubhliam wrote: »

As for Plague Doctor... @Doctordarkspawn

This is just one... ONE boss with high health.

Also, you forgot to mention that there are mechanics involved in that fight where you get enormous ultimate generation, making it for a quicker kill.

While comparing this boss to Xal Nur, which fight do you think takes longer?

EDIT: Plague Doctor takes less than two minutes to kill.

To be fair that boss is dead before you can make much use of the ult gen pool, though I've never seen that fight last long regardless.

Dubhliam

In any case, the title of the thread is that bosses have too much health.

Fact:
The highest health boss has 10 million health. (an exeption to otherwise regular health pools)

Fact:
It takes two minutes to kill him (3 minutes tops for groups that have any hope of ever finishing this dungeon)

So...

What are we complaining about?
Three minutes too long?

We are talking vet dungeons.
If you want lightspeed clears, go do normal dungeons.

serrintine

starkerealm wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

As for Plague Doctor... @Doctordarkspawn

This is just one... ONE boss with high health.

Also, you forgot to mention that there are mechanics involved in that fight where you get enormous ultimate generation, making it for a quicker kill.

While comparing this boss to Xal Nur, which fight do you think takes longer?

EDIT: Plague Doctor takes less than two minutes to kill.

Still lazy design, and criticism of it for being so isn't wrong.

Xal-Nur had actual depth to it, as much depth as an MMO boss can have. Mortieu has a fairly forced mechanic that puts strain on one third of the holy trinity and the rest on rapid DPS.

By your own admission, it takes less than two minutes, it's a DPS race, which makes the high health all the more insulting. That ZOS cant program a bossfight that's more then a straight DPS race that they need to inflate the health pool to a point where it has to matter.

And that says far more about ZOS then the people critisizing ZOS. As much as you seem to hate them for merely speaking an opinion.

Its not a dps race, it has the mechanics. -_-

Mechanics that, clearly, didn't warrant enough player involvement or incentive -not- to burn them, given it apparently needed 10M health.

I was also slightly surprised to see that boss with 10mil health the first time. I can only assume ZOS wanted the mechanics to play out without having 'down time'. Say the first mechanic happens, the NPCs have dialog, you kill the imps (from memory?), and then the NPC grabs the resources, spends more time making an antidote/potion and then provides it to you in the middle of the room. It'd be a pretty boring fight if he was completely invulnerable during the poison phases until an antidote was ready. On the other hand, if it was only invulnerable until the first two scamps died, then there's enough forced NPC dialog during the 'potion mixing and distribution' phase (a good 10-15s) that you can get out a bunch of dmg. Then add the mechanic of the extra guard spawning after each antidote, _and_ that ZOS probably wanted most people to experience the different versions, at minimum of 5 mil starts to become understandable.

I seem to recall places like the flesh sculptor in ICP never used to go invulnerable to start with either? IIRC it was only added once DPS increased enough to burn through?

As far as I know, the point of continuing to burn him through the Attronach phase was always to cull out the Attros before they could enrage. With enough damage, they'd just melt in the AoEs and could be safely ignored, it wasn't about trying to melt him before he got through. That said, I took a break from the game when Imperial City launched, because I was suffering from horrible load screens, so, if he didn't have immunity for a couple patches, I could have missed that.

Can still burn him before he goes invulnerable if you just bring in 3 high burst dps. Power creep has gone too far lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUG78IIid5c

Ragnarock41

Asardes wrote: »

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

Oh look a casual carebear scrub JK JK tho I do admit we could do with more heavily mechanics based enemies, like have a super weak enemy with 100k health but with mechanics that catch players off guard

vMA: enemies with low HP but very high damage abilities ;

I miss the days when having a vMA weapon meant something. It was like a token of your skill. Even in open world, Seeing a maelstrom weapon on your enemy reminded you that you're not facing some random pug, it was that significant.

NeetoCheeto1

AuldWolf

Honestly, this is just the Everquest LIte-issue raising its ugly head once again. Every MMO has this problem. In single player games it's referred to in a derogative manner as 'bullet sponges.' No one likes it. Borderlands is routinely mocked for it when it comes to multiplayer. Then again, Borderlands can also be bizarrely Everquest Lite itself (MMO-ish, basically). This is what happens when an old guard of developers has a comfort zone in Everquest and isn't brave enough to move away from that, even if moving away from that is what's needed because that's what the rest of the gaming world wants.

Gaming moved beyond the Everquest Lite school of design years ago. That the old guard of MMO development can't move past this and remain stuck in the past is why the genre is in the state it is. Many games dead or on life support, no new games in development, the ones that are in development looking troubled (see: ESO and all of its issues, desperately pushing out content instead of dealing with bugs and problems), and so on. It's all covered in the post-mortem linked in the signature. I'm not mad at them, I don't want to see ZOS suffer or fail. To the contrary, I wouldn't be here doing this if I felt that way. There's just some small part of my mind that hopes that they'll realise and revitalise the game, that they'll redesign it to bring it as far away from Everquest Lite as they can.

They already took a step away from Everquest Lite with One Tamriel. Now they just need to look at what they're doing wrong versus contemporary AAA design and go from there.

The thing is? I'm playing Skyrim again. Why? Being werewolf is a blast. Especially with the werewolf modded to be a little stronger. I don't like the story of Skyrim, the setting, nor the characters. I admit, most of Skyrim's best writing is found in mods (Falskaar, Wheels of Lull, the Forgotten City, Wyrmstooth, Interesting NPCs, et al). However, Skyrim's gameplay can actually be fun. Exploring a dungeon can be enjoyable. I do admit, though, whenever I move away from modded content in Skyrim I find myself yearning for ESO's storytelling. It's so, so, so much better.

I just really want them to learn. As it is, though? This is just another artefact of Everquest Lite design. Same as every other design problem in this game.

Splattercat_83

Didaco wrote: »

I think the problem lies in the genre itself.

Mechanics are what are used in this genre to make fights more engaging... The more health they have, the more mechanics you do.
I wonder what will happen when mmorpg developers will finally realize how a proper AI would impact the gameplay in a positive way.

Like, I don't know, having a boss capable of recognizing AoE dots and, instead of stepping in it like a child in a pond, it circles them...

Or a boss that recognises your attacks and actively dodges them...

I don't know, these are things that the videogame industry has known for a long time, but it seem that the mmorpg genre lives in a parallel world where the only few concepts of hostile NPC are:

-give them gazillions of HP
-give them some stat check mechanics, punishing player with one shot attacks when those checks are not satisfied (dps races for example)
-make them braindead turrets, only capable of spamming basic attacks, waiting for the next cooldown to wear off in order to use the first skill they have available at the time
-give them health values thresholds in order to make mechanics kick in

That's why I usually enjoy more PvP in a game than PvE.

How about no? AOE and ground based DoTs would be rendered useless, as well as the Maelstrom weapons. Trash would not die. If I wanted gameplay like you just stated I'd go PVP.