Sloads: The Death of Build Diversity

pieratsos

OnlyOnThursday wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

No its not. Oblvion dmg as a design needs to be thrown in the trash. All the sets, glyphs or whatever with oblivion dmg need to be entirely reworked. As it is now, if the dmg is decent then they are all broken because they have no counters. And If the dmg isnt good then they are all hot garbage. Aka there is nothing good oblivion dmg and all those sets.

Oblivion damage is basically the only thing that can bust through resistance, when people stack resistance with raid buffs and tank gear it's one of the few ways you can still hurt them

If something is broken then you fix what is broken. You dont just throw another broken thing to counter it. If shieldstacking is an issue, adjust shieldstacking. If cloaking is an issue, adjust cloak. If permablocking is an issue adjust blocking. If you have a problem then fix the freaking problem. Dont create another one.

P.S. Oblivion dmg hurts literally everyone but raids. Not sure what kind of raid you think you are hurting with sloads.

OnlyOnThursday

pieratsos wrote: »

OnlyOnThursday wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

No its not. Oblvion dmg as a design needs to be thrown in the trash. All the sets, glyphs or whatever with oblivion dmg need to be entirely reworked. As it is now, if the dmg is decent then they are all broken because they have no counters. And If the dmg isnt good then they are all hot garbage. Aka there is nothing good oblivion dmg and all those sets.

Oblivion damage is basically the only thing that can bust through resistance, when people stack resistance with raid buffs and tank gear it's one of the few ways you can still hurt them

If something is broken then you fix what is broken. You dont just throw another broken thing to counter it. If shieldstacking is an issue, adjust shieldstacking. If cloaking is an issue, adjust cloak. If permablocking is an issue adjust blocking. If you have a problem then fix the freaking problem. Dont create another one.

P.S. Oblivion dmg hurts literally everyone but raids. Not sure what kind of raid you think you are hurting with sloads.

Obviously I meant people running raid buffs in Pvp... You haven't actually explained what about oblivion damage is broken, but you know.. Ok.

Mureel

I mean everyone says they want more people in BG, but they cannot get that not being able to even take 10 steps before being instagibbed is not fun.

People need a chance to look around long enough to understand the games, learn to play, etc. If they're just dead/rezzing CD the whole time, how are they going to have a chance to learn?

They aren't. Thus they won't come back.

I'd have thought that people who PVP all the time would have it in them to learn to overcome and just sort it out - give some build and tactical advice for those who want to drop the training wheels, but have the intellect to see that sometimes, if you wanna have a bike race, people need to learn to ride, and get out of the way!

That's the bigger picture.

Most people who wore sloads were those people, or people who just change to 'meta' and seeing everyone moan here is the surest way to get everyone to make that set.

TBH- y'all could have done well to be quiet, or at least be useful.

But that's not the PVP Meta, is it?

Enjoy your queues, ladies!

pieratsos

OnlyOnThursday wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

OnlyOnThursday wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

No its not. Oblvion dmg as a design needs to be thrown in the trash. All the sets, glyphs or whatever with oblivion dmg need to be entirely reworked. As it is now, if the dmg is decent then they are all broken because they have no counters. And If the dmg isnt good then they are all hot garbage. Aka there is nothing good oblivion dmg and all those sets.

Oblivion damage is basically the only thing that can bust through resistance, when people stack resistance with raid buffs and tank gear it's one of the few ways you can still hurt them

If something is broken then you fix what is broken. You dont just throw another broken thing to counter it. If shieldstacking is an issue, adjust shieldstacking. If cloaking is an issue, adjust cloak. If permablocking is an issue adjust blocking. If you have a problem then fix the freaking problem. Dont create another one.

P.S. Oblivion dmg hurts literally everyone but raids. Not sure what kind of raid you think you are hurting with sloads.

Obviously I meant people running raid buffs in Pvp... You haven't actually explained what about oblivion damage is broken, but you know.. Ok.

I did explain although i shouldnt cause its obvious. It has no counters since it ignores every defensive mechanic. Go back and read if you missed it.
What you didnt explain is what kind of raid buffs do you think people outside of groups have. But you know.. Ok.

Rickter

the people who defend sloads, are confirmed cases of "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling"

I mean look at this:

Mureel wrote: »

All sloads did -really- is give the wearer a CD off people much stronger hammering on them relentlessly with all the other stuff as mentioned above, by forcing them to back off for a few seconds.

I dont care if you wear it or not, the mentality is staggering.

If anyone in their right mind can defend unmitigated damage over time, especially when its used in conjunction with other burst dmg proc sets, then I'm not quite sure how you sleep at night.

the super healing, and mega tanks are a separate issue entirely, and the fix for it should not include the introduction of a set like this. That's why a set like this wasnt introduced until 4 years after launch - someone clearly missed the memo.

ak_pvp

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Look at the damage output of bleeds, especially master buffed bleeds. They are just as strong as sloads, but because NBs/temps can deal with them and they can be shielded people often forget.

It is impossible to heal through a full bleed build, in no CP its about 5k/s and in and its even worse when defiled. In CP its around 3k/s for a full bleed combo.

OdinForge

Rickter wrote: »

the people who defend sloads, are confirmed cases of "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling"

I mean look at this:

Mureel wrote: »

All sloads did -really- is give the wearer a CD off people much stronger hammering on them relentlessly with all the other stuff as mentioned above, by forcing them to back off for a few seconds.

I dont care if you wear it or not, the mentality is staggering.

If anyone in their right mind can defend unmitigated damage over time, especially when its used in conjunction with other burst dmg proc sets, then I'm not quite sure how you sleep at night.

the super healing, and mega tanks are a separate issue entirely, and the fix for it should not include the introduction of a set like this. That's why a set like this wasnt introduced until 4 years after launch - someone clearly missed the memo.

The people defending this set are not interested in balance, they literally just exist to give AP to others.

Vapirko

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

See I knew #builddiversity was the key phrase

technohic

Hopefully they start with the cooldown at least being a thing. I just really hate that in general there are things that give you damage while you still can ignore stats for damage enabling to build for more procs, tank, and defile sets in stead.

Girl_Number8

ezio45 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

will any change be made to it removing nbs from stealth?

That's called counter play ~;-;

ak_pvp

Jojo part 5 confirmed, ES 6 confimed, sloads nerfed, a good week.

Girl_Number8

Vapirko wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

See I knew #builddiversity was the key phrase

By that you mean sorcys and nbs~

Mureel

pieratsos wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

A large cooldown and a condition to proc it is what it needs. Damage is fine, it's constant damage the way it is at the moment which isn't fine.

Combat team need be a bit more creative with the condition to proc.

No its not. Oblvion dmg as a design needs to be thrown in the trash. All the sets, glyphs or whatever with oblivion dmg need to be entirely reworked. As it is now, if the dmg is decent then they are all broken because they have no counters. And If the dmg isnt good then they are all hot garbage. Aka there is nothing good oblivion dmg and all those sets.

Choo chooooo! Lol. Ridiculous.

BaylorCorvette

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

God Bless.

WillhelmBlack

pieratsos wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

A large cooldown and a condition to proc it is what it needs. Damage is fine, it's constant damage the way it is at the moment which isn't fine.

Combat team need be a bit more creative with the condition to proc.

No its not. Oblvion dmg as a design needs to be thrown in the trash. All the sets, glyphs or whatever with oblivion dmg need to be entirely reworked. As it is now, if the dmg is decent then they are all broken because they have no counters. And If the dmg isnt good then they are all hot garbage. Aka there is nothing good oblivion dmg and all those sets.

Couple quick questions.

Have you raised your health due to the power creep this patch?

Are you a mag sorc with one heal on your bar by any chance?

If Sloads is given a reasonable condition for it to proc... e.g When you interrupt an enemy while casting or channeling you do X amount of Oblivion damage to the target for 3 seconds. This effect can occur every 15 seconds.

Would that be overpowered? You can only apply Sloads to one enemy at a time then as you have immunity on interrupts now.

That's just an example, I'm sure the combat designers can think of something. There's a reason Oblivion damage is making its way into the game and we all know why. It's lazy yeah but it's making PvP less scary and rewarding for noobs AND it's a damn sight easier to add than fixing shield stacking without killing an entire class or a way to do damage to otherwise unkillable tanks that do NOTHING but aim to survive in PvP.

Own

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

I hope things like Caulruuns, Skoria, and other crazy big hits that are worse than viper ever was. A lot were thinking that an incremental update would tune sloads down. Maybe just lower damage slightly and stop it from breaking cloak until you know more about what is going to be changed.

Ankael07

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

Next Monday update? Or the next Werewolf DLC update? Will you guys relieve PVP in a couple of days or let it degenerate further for the next couple of months?

What happens when the next DLC introduce another OP set like this?

pieratsos

Mureel wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

A large cooldown and a condition to proc it is what it needs. Damage is fine, it's constant damage the way it is at the moment which isn't fine.

Combat team need be a bit more creative with the condition to proc.

No its not. Oblvion dmg as a design needs to be thrown in the trash. All the sets, glyphs or whatever with oblivion dmg need to be entirely reworked. As it is now, if the dmg is decent then they are all broken because they have no counters. And If the dmg isnt good then they are all hot garbage. Aka there is nothing good oblivion dmg and all those sets.

Choo chooooo! Lol. Ridiculous.

Oblivion dmg is indeed ridiculous. Its existence alone is ridiculous. And whats even more ridiculous is the people who defend it and telling other people that need to L2P.

chris211

Ankael07 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

Next Monday update? Or the next Werewolf DLC update? Will you guys relieve PVP in a couple of days or let it degenerate further for the next couple of months?

What happens when the next DLC introduce another OP set like this?

next quarterly update

pieratsos

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

A large cooldown and a condition to proc it is what it needs. Damage is fine, it's constant damage the way it is at the moment which isn't fine.

Combat team need be a bit more creative with the condition to proc.

No its not. Oblvion dmg as a design needs to be thrown in the trash. All the sets, glyphs or whatever with oblivion dmg need to be entirely reworked. As it is now, if the dmg is decent then they are all broken because they have no counters. And If the dmg isnt good then they are all hot garbage. Aka there is nothing good oblivion dmg and all those sets.

Couple quick questions.

Have you raised your health due to the power creep this patch?

Are you a mag sorc with one heal on your bar by any chance?

If Sloads is given a reasonable condition for it to proc... e.g When you interrupt an enemy while casting or channeling you do X amount of Oblivion damage to the target for 3 seconds. This effect can occur every 15 seconds.

Would that be overpowered? You can only apply Sloads to one enemy at a time then as you have immunity on interrupts now.

That's just an example, I'm sure the combat designers can think of something. There's a reason Oblivion damage is making its way into the game and we all know why. It's lazy yeah but it's making PvP less scary and rewarding for noobs AND it's a damn sight easier to add than fixing shield stacking without killing an entire class or a way to do damage to otherwise unkillable tanks that do NOTHING but aim to survive in PvP.

Its not about which class it counters. It doesnt matter if its sloads or shieldbreaker or blockbreaker only dealing oblivion dmg against blocking targets. Its the same thing.

I understand what you are trying to do with proc conditions and while i agree with you in terms of all proc sets having more "skilled/unique" proc conditions it will still be broken because the design of oblivion dmg as a whole is fundamentally broken. Its not about specific sets.

Oblivion dmg has never been balanced. It was always either broken or garbage. Thats just because of how oblivion dmg works and it has nothing to do with specific sets. Its the design that is flawed in every possible way.

P.S. I still have no idea how introducing sets like that is helping new players get into the game or makes them "compete". It doesnt. Its doing the exact opposite. A new player doesnt know what sload is. Those players have even less knowledge on how to fight crap like that. They just get into PVP and melt and whats even worse is that they cant even learn even if they want to when there is no skill involved. If the goal is to close the gap between floor and ceiling then reduce the freaking power creep so there are no unkillable tanks or 50k+ magicka shieldstackers.

CompM4s

I just outheal/ purge sloads like any other of the many dots/ poisons that are put on me.

James-Wayne

The stacking is the issue everything else is fine. Just make it hit once for the duration per player.

blur

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

So basically you are going to ruin another set because people are too lazy or too ignorant to slot a counter.
Cyrodiil PvP is mostly zergs, Sloads is irrelevant.
BGs has at least 4 people on a team... let's be real, 1 of 4 can slot a counter that benefits the entire team.

The set isn't overpowered nor broken. You have enough sets that suck already that go directly to vendor, delete, or decon.
The fact of the matter is that players need something to whine about. I never die to sloads, ever (nor do people on my team in BGs). I run efficient purge on my bar and please don't tell me you don't have the room for it, let alone one of your group members.

There will always be a boogieman people will ***, moan, and groan about. After you are done ruining Sloads, you will see more threads asking you to ruin another set, including monster sets. Watch.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel please consider what I wrote here.


edit:
And before someone get's their pride stepped on and knee-jerk retorts, I don't even use the set, however I do see some merit in others running it.

Edit 2 :
As of right now, your hotfix today basically broke the game on PC. Now we enter BGs that are slideshows of 300-999 ping where nobody can hit anyone and people are warping all over the place. The same goes for Dungeonfinder groups. But hey, instead of fixing your game, let's worry about Sloads.

Gilvoth

CompM4s wrote: »

I just outheal/ purge sloads like any other of the many dots/ poisons that are put on me.

that's what we all did, sloads was no threat to anyone, its damage was weak.
but these fellas saw different and they want what they want or else.
we aint in that small group that zenimax favors, so, our ideas and thoughts, just, don't really matter.

Gbnicholson1

Can we vote against this? I want my 1000 writs I bought sloads stations with if it’s going to change. I may even want a partial refund for Summerset. It’s really not that bad I don’t like that people can whine and destroy my investments. Its also an insult to the developers who designed it, as if they didn’t consider the effect the set would have at all. I haven’t read a single good suggestion for the change. If there are bugs to work out that should change but that’s it.

Gbnicholson1

blur wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

So basically you are going to ruin another set because people are too lazy or too ignorant to slot a

The set isn't overpowered nor broken. You have enough sets that suck already that go directly to vendor, delete, or decon.
The fact of the matter is that players need something to whine about. I never die to sloads, ever (nor do people on my team in BGs). I run efficient purge on my bar and please don't tell me you don't have the room for it, let alone one of your group members.

There will always be a boogieman people will ***, moan, and groan about. After you are done ruining Sloads, you will see more threads asking you to ruin another set, including monster sets. Watch.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel please consider what I wrote here.

It’s because they’ve got them to cave and change things in the past and they want the power of making a change, ignoring the players and their investment that it harms in the process. The only changes that need to be made are things that add to the game, not take away. When I die to something I blame myself and improve my build, I don’t blame the devs. So maybe they could add something to help counter it for people that need it. Maybe it could help counter the damage from siege as well. Instead of destroying something you worked hard to design, you can use your admirable talents more to design more

@blur, @Daus already went for all that itt

Vapirko

@Daus respect for having a moral code, I used to feel more like that and still refrain from proc damage sets of any kind really because I know how much I hate fighting against them and its nice to meet the odd 1v1 who feels the same and have a good, honest bout. But I've stopped struggling along with an under powered or lacking class like stam dk and to some extent stam sorc (from a solo perspective) just because its not worth the frustration. If i had a larger group it would be different. Ill be honest that most of my time these days is spent on stam warden or magicka sorc. If Im out there 2vXign with my buddy who plays magplar, stamina sorc just doesnt have the damage/utility toolkit to deal the fact that 90% of players and other groups are going to be wearing whatever they can get their hands on and the fact that were still largely in a heavy armor meta and warden performs way better in heavy than stam sorc does.

I guess what Im saying is, there really isn't much shame in letting the game carry you a little. Everyone does it whether its playing classes that are closer to the meta, using proc sets or both. I don't think any self respecting player is gonna blame you for playing mag sorc or whatever, and its worth it to ease up on some of the frustration.

Koensol

Koensol wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I’ve got it, this is the reason to nerf sloads that even its defenders should be able to get behind: build diversity. Now, I know for sure (though I won’t name any names cause forum rules) that at least some people defending Sloads have ranted about build diversity this and build diversity that in the past. So answer me this, your solution to Sloads is for everyone to slot purge or use wyrd tree, ok fine. Since apparently all the Sloaders know better than the most respected content producers and theory crafters in this game, this set should be nerfed because it’s killing build diversity and forcing everyone to use one set to survive or one skill, and destroying the work ZOS has done to move away from a heavy armor meta, since health regen is the best way to counter this if you’re not a magicka build and can’t use Wyrd tree. In the name of #builddiversity nerf Sloads because ZOS says I should be able to play however I want and Sloads isn’t letting me do this.

So another solution would be to simply stop trying to 1vX and just challenge no more than an opponent or two at one time max...


In conclusion, build diversity is fine...

People are just mad that Sloads disrupts their easy mode, and now they actually have to defend themselves in more ways than just stacking shields or spamming cloak...

Thank you for revealing the true underlying issue that is at the source of your nonsense. Now answer this question please: How is it easymode when I, while wearing standard issue sets, defeat multiple people wearing the same or similar sets and playing the same or similar classes?

Really looking forward to what you can cook up.

@TheDoomsdayMonster Still waiting for your reply...

Gprime31

Vapirko wrote: »

Jurand80 wrote: »

welcome to non cp BG

Why is it always going for 7 ticks? Shouldn’t it be 6?

It can reproc itself on the last tick

Emma_Overload

Daus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

Please tell me you're going to look at the other proc sets while you're at it. Zaan, Caluurion, and Skoria should not get a pass.

Good luck. I've never even asked for a damage nerf on Skoria, all I want is a simple visual cue like Meteor. But Skoria owners pop out of the woodwork to cry cry cry if you dare mention it.