Sloads: The Death of Build Diversity

The_Protagonist

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Good to see.

Now, while they're at it- get rid of bleed or make a magic version of bleed.

Why is it that stamina has access to damage that ignores ALL physical penetration- but magic builds don't have damage that ignores all spell penetration?

If you think about it: the "balance" of armor passives is that light armor gets higher penetration while medium armor gets higher damage. But if you can wear medium armor (which gets 12% higher damage) AND gain 100% physical penetration- isn't that unbalanced?

But then we would need to remove cool effects like extra fire damage to burning targets, off balance from shock and slow from frost, plus we would also need to remove penetration from light armor. Are you willing to give all that up. I am not.

Vapirko

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Good to see.

Now, while they're at it- get rid of bleed or make a magic version of bleed.

Why is it that stamina has access to damage that ignores ALL physical penetration- but magic builds don't have damage that ignores all spell penetration?

If you think about it: the "balance" of armor passives is that light armor gets higher penetration while medium armor gets higher damage. But if you can wear medium armor (which gets 12% higher damage) AND gain 100% physical penetration- isn't that unbalanced?

No, the survivability of light armor and shields far out weighs medium, and damage between light armor passives and destro passives is comparably strong.

TheYKcid

Gbnicholson1 wrote: »

I’m not even in remote agreeement that it’s overpowered, and poisoning the well against anyone who wants to keep it the way it is is also not a valid argument for a change to be made and my investments to be thrown away.

@Gbnicholson1

Sload's does up to 140% MORE DPS than a set of Master's dual-wield—a set which many players have already felt is OP for months.

(source)

But it doesn't end there. This is in addition to the fact that it also:

• Bypasses Magsorc's only defensive mechanic
• Completely disables Nightblade's core defensive mechanic with over 90% uptime
• Can be procced continuously from max range with just light attacks and DoTs

And it does all this with no resource cost. No GCD expenditure. No change to your rotation/combo.

It is quite literally the strongest and highest-utility set in PvP right now, by a MILE.

If you can't agree, even remotely, that something in the set's design is overtuned, then you really shouldn't be participating in balance debates.

Vizier

Arthg wrote: »

"I don't die to Sload's so Sload's isn't the issue" is not a convincing argument.

The point is that Sload's, by being so easy to get, and by enabling players to apply crazy unmitigable damage by doing nothing but being there with their thumbs up their bottoms, is the #1 explanation why PvP gameplay at the moment is brain-dead stupid.

Where I play, it's very often (endemically) combined with Skoria - now where's the fun/skill/challenge in left-clicking to proc'?

This to me is the issue with Sload, and this set needs to be denounced for what it is: the current epitomy of the awful gameplay the devs are pushing us to adopt.

If I don't die to Sload's isn't convincing then dying to Sload's is just as weak an argument.

What is important with people speaking to their experience with Sload's not being a problem for them is to show that differences in builds and playstyle actually makes a difference as to whether or not it's a problem for you. As a BowTard Gankblade running Sload's , Spriggans and Slimecraw I take a huge hit in Weapon damage over my Hawkeye, Spriggans build. I love the extra pressure enough oblivion damage ads to the equation though. Seems to me Sload's is doing exactly what it's meant to.

The community hasn't adapted to the emergence of Oblivion damage as a viable option again. They don't want to adapt. They don't want their sacred cow God Mode 20-30k shield stack builds touched. Never mind that's every other class has had to do over and over again since launch..except for the shield stackers and perma blockers. They've pretty much been in the PvP catbird seat for years now. Sorry (not really) but I'm flipping ecstatic...orgasmic over the QQ. It's about time the PvP status quo got turned on it's head.

Use a heal and a shield instead of a double shield. Put healing ward back in your rotation. Maybe we start seeing more people running purge. The Whine over Sload's right now is SOOOOO transparent.

@ZOS KEEP IT UP. I want to see every damage type become viable such there is no such thing as a FOTM. You want to see balance in PvP. Compartmentalize every type of damage and resistance. Make players spend CP for specific buffs and resistances. (no pooled damage types on one CP node. etc.) Allow for Oblivion resistance in CP and this way it becomes truly rock / paper / scissors and we are virtually guaranteed there will be a wide range of strengths and weaknesses between each build. This way if someone gets tore up they can't really complain. They just have to build differently. About the only people that would be left to complain are those that built for specific resistances but still get tore up by that type of damage.

TheYKcid

^ Extremely dishonest post by @Vizier above.

You absolutely do not take a huge hit to your weapon damage when running Sload's. Comparing the 2-4 piece bonuses between Hawk's Eye and Sload's clearly shows that you're only losing 1096 stam when running the latter set.



But of course we still need to account for the Hawk's Eye 5pc bonus. Knowing your sets, we can calculate that the maximum possible stats you're running with: 30,004 stam and 4146 wep damage (and this is assuming you slotted NO regen, no triglyphs, and run all boosting modifiers possible, so it's likely a gross overestimate).

That puts your (maximum possible) base Snipe tooltip, before modifiers, at 11767.

Here are the scaling coefficients in case you don't believe me:

Damage = 0.15982 Stamina + 1.68056 WeaponDamage + 4.33429

%-based modifiers like Hawk's Eye scale directly off this value, so dropping the 5pc bonus means you're losing 11767*0.05 = 588 damage from your snipe.

Then add this to the loss of the 2-4pc stam bonus (which inflates to 1491 stam when you account for passives), and your snipe tooltip drops by another 238, which inflates to ~330 at best, since you have CP modifiers and minor berserk.

So in total, you're losing around 920 damage from your in-game snipe tooltip by choosing to run Sload's (and once again do note that this is the worst case scenario). Battlespirit halves this value to 460 actual damage.

Even if we pretend your target has absolutely zero mitigation (no armor, CP, protection/maim, NOTHING) we can already see that just the initial t=0 tick of 853 damage that Sload's applies far surpasses what Hawk's Eye would add to your snipe (even if Snipe crits!). And Sload's will continue adding this damage once every second, faster than you can even spam snipes.

So don't be disingenuous and pretend that you are "sacrificing burst for pressure". You're not sacrificing anything by running Sload's. You're gaining more burst, more pressure, a softcounter to Magsorcs, and a hard counter to Nightblades.

And don't pretend to promote diversity while supporting a set that has stripped a huge amount of build diversity out of PvP. Because I think most of us here know the real reason you're defending Sload's so adamantly.

pieratsos

Vizier wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

"I don't die to Sload's so Sload's isn't the issue" is not a convincing argument.

The point is that Sload's, by being so easy to get, and by enabling players to apply crazy unmitigable damage by doing nothing but being there with their thumbs up their bottoms, is the #1 explanation why PvP gameplay at the moment is brain-dead stupid.

Where I play, it's very often (endemically) combined with Skoria - now where's the fun/skill/challenge in left-clicking to proc'?

This to me is the issue with Sload, and this set needs to be denounced for what it is: the current epitomy of the awful gameplay the devs are pushing us to adopt.

If I don't die to Sload's isn't convincing then dying to Sload's is just as weak an argument.

What is important with people speaking to their experience with Sload's not being a problem for them is to show that differences in builds and playstyle actually makes a difference as to whether or not it's a problem for you. As a BowTard Gankblade running Sload's , Spriggans and Slimecraw I take a huge hit in Weapon damage over my Hawkeye, Spriggans build. I love the extra pressure enough oblivion damage ads to the equation though. Seems to me Sload's is doing exactly what it's meant to.

The community hasn't adapted to the emergence of Oblivion damage as a viable option again. They don't want to adapt. They don't want their sacred cow God Mode 20-30k shield stack builds touched. Never mind that's every other class has had to do over and over again since launch..except for the shield stackers and perma blockers. They've pretty much been in the PvP catbird seat for years now. Sorry (not really) but I'm flipping ecstatic...orgasmic over the QQ. It's about time the PvP status quo got turned on it's head.

Use a heal and a shield instead of a double shield. Put healing ward back in your rotation. Maybe we start seeing more people running purge. The Whine over Sload's right now is SOOOOO transparent.

@ZOS KEEP IT UP. I want to see every damage type become viable such there is no such thing as a FOTM. You want to see balance in PvP. Compartmentalize every type of damage and resistance. Make players spend CP for specific buffs and resistances. (no pooled damage types on one CP node. etc.) Allow for Oblivion resistance in CP and this way it becomes truly rock / paper / scissors and we are virtually guaranteed there will be a wide range of strengths and weaknesses between each build. This way if someone gets tore up they can't really complain. They just have to build differently. About the only people that would be left to complain are those that built for specific resistances but still get tore up by that type of damage.

Watch out with ur sacrifices when you use sloads. You dont want to hurt urself too bad.

Bergzorn

It is ridiculous how many are wearing this set. Get hit by siege? Take a Sload proc. Walk trough caltrops? Here's your Sload proc. Escaped an angy mob? Have some more Sload procs from their various DOTs.

I can deal with the set in most situations. I find it just so infuriating how many seemingly good players use it. No, you are not gimping yourself when you don't wear the latest piece of obvious cheese. It has never been easier to show some spine.

TheYKcid

@Bergzorn The sad truth is that good players are gimping themselves—massively—by not running Sload's.

To give you an idea of the ridiculous damage loss you'd be incurring, imagine asking a typical stam build to refrain from using Master axes... and then also asking them to unslot Twin Slashes from their bars entirely. Check out this thread if you're curious where these figures come from.

I personally haven't touched the set (I'm all about showing dat spine, probably masochistically so), but I can't fault good players for not willingly putting themselves at a disadvantage against any average zergling.

idk

As for OPs bases for this thread, Zos would know for sure if build diversity has disappeared.

One can talk all they want about things in the forums without any real basis, and we often do. However, this is something that is far to easy for Zos to look at the actual numbers and either find support or lack of it. BTW, do not expect Zos to show the numbers as they really should not.

Vapirko

idk wrote: »

As for OPs bases for this thread, Zos would know for sure if build diversity has disappeared.

One can talk all they want about things in the forums without any real basis, and we often do. However, this is something that is far to easy for Zos to look at the actual numbers and either find support or lack of it. BTW, do not expect Zos to show the numbers as they really should not.

@idk the post was semi sarcastic exactly because we have hordes of people who refuse to look at the numbers. And the numbers are available, it’s already been proven that sloads far out damages even Master dw weapons. Im not a beta player, but I have been around long enough to know that ZOS will respond to enough noise on the forums (for better or worse) and this was something worth speaking up about. Is this actually killing build diversity? No, not really, it’s definitely pushing stam players towards health regen builds, for magikca there’s no legitimate defense if you’re not a Templar so you just use the same builds as always.

Troneon

idk

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As for OPs bases for this thread, Zos would know for sure if build diversity has disappeared.

One can talk all they want about things in the forums without any real basis, and we often do. However, this is something that is far to easy for Zos to look at the actual numbers and either find support or lack of it. BTW, do not expect Zos to show the numbers as they really should not.

@idk the post was semi sarcastic exactly because we have hordes of people who refuse to look at the numbers. And the numbers are available, it’s already been proven that sloads far out damages even Master dw weapons. Im not a beta player, but I have been around long enough to know that ZOS will respond to enough noise on the forums (for better or worse) and this was something worth speaking up about. Is this actually killing build diversity? No, not really, it’s definitely pushing stam players towards health regen builds, for magikca there’s no legitimate defense if you’re not a Templar so you just use the same builds as always.

Sarcastic or not Master DW is probably not the most appropriate set bonus to compare sloads to. That seems to be pretty obvious regardless of what numbers you have seen.

Besides being such a narrow focus it seems comparing a 2 piece bonus to that of a 5 piece bonus does not seem appropriate. Maybe compare the numbers to other 5 pc bonuses. BTW, I am sure one can find a few 5 piece bonuses that do not perform as well. The question is how much performs better. That would be the logical path in comparing anything like this.

Vapirko

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As for OPs bases for this thread, Zos would know for sure if build diversity has disappeared.

One can talk all they want about things in the forums without any real basis, and we often do. However, this is something that is far to easy for Zos to look at the actual numbers and either find support or lack of it. BTW, do not expect Zos to show the numbers as they really should not.

@idk the post was semi sarcastic exactly because we have hordes of people who refuse to look at the numbers. And the numbers are available, it’s already been proven that sloads far out damages even Master dw weapons. Im not a beta player, but I have been around long enough to know that ZOS will respond to enough noise on the forums (for better or worse) and this was something worth speaking up about. Is this actually killing build diversity? No, not really, it’s definitely pushing stam players towards health regen builds, for magikca there’s no legitimate defense if you’re not a Templar so you just use the same builds as always.

Sarcastic or not Master DW is probably not the most appropriate set bonus to compare sloads to. That seems to be pretty obvious regardless of what numbers you have seen.

Besides being such a narrow focus it seems comparing a 2 piece bonus to that of a 5 piece bonus does not seem appropriate. Maybe compare the numbers to other 5 pc bonuses. BTW, I am sure one can find a few 5 piece bonuses that do not perform as well. The question is how much performs better. That would be the logical path in comparing anything like this.

Its being compared to master DW because that is arguably the strongest dot weapon set right now outside of sloads. And not only that but it requires a lot of skill to acquire and one specific ability to use. But Sloads has more DPS than any other 5pc in the game overall by a large margin. Its not even an argument just fact.

idk

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As for OPs bases for this thread, Zos would know for sure if build diversity has disappeared.

One can talk all they want about things in the forums without any real basis, and we often do. However, this is something that is far to easy for Zos to look at the actual numbers and either find support or lack of it. BTW, do not expect Zos to show the numbers as they really should not.

@idk the post was semi sarcastic exactly because we have hordes of people who refuse to look at the numbers. And the numbers are available, it’s already been proven that sloads far out damages even Master dw weapons. Im not a beta player, but I have been around long enough to know that ZOS will respond to enough noise on the forums (for better or worse) and this was something worth speaking up about. Is this actually killing build diversity? No, not really, it’s definitely pushing stam players towards health regen builds, for magikca there’s no legitimate defense if you’re not a Templar so you just use the same builds as always.

Sarcastic or not Master DW is probably not the most appropriate set bonus to compare sloads to. That seems to be pretty obvious regardless of what numbers you have seen.

Besides being such a narrow focus it seems comparing a 2 piece bonus to that of a 5 piece bonus does not seem appropriate. Maybe compare the numbers to other 5 pc bonuses. BTW, I am sure one can find a few 5 piece bonuses that do not perform as well. The question is how much performs better. That would be the logical path in comparing anything like this.

Its being compared to master DW because that is arguably the strongest dot weapon set right now outside of sloads. And not only that but it requires a lot of skill to acquire and one specific ability to use. But Sloads has more DPS than any other 5pc in the game overall by a large margin. Its not even an argument just fact.

Maybe. I have looked for myself. Really find most of the threads entertainment though you are actually talking about comparisons so I want to see the comparisons.

Please do link the comparisons because I do think your last comment is very wrong. I obviously want to see more than the Master DW weapon because I think that is a poor comparison to begin with.

@Vapirko

Vapirko

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As for OPs bases for this thread, Zos would know for sure if build diversity has disappeared.

One can talk all they want about things in the forums without any real basis, and we often do. However, this is something that is far to easy for Zos to look at the actual numbers and either find support or lack of it. BTW, do not expect Zos to show the numbers as they really should not.

@idk the post was semi sarcastic exactly because we have hordes of people who refuse to look at the numbers. And the numbers are available, it’s already been proven that sloads far out damages even Master dw weapons. Im not a beta player, but I have been around long enough to know that ZOS will respond to enough noise on the forums (for better or worse) and this was something worth speaking up about. Is this actually killing build diversity? No, not really, it’s definitely pushing stam players towards health regen builds, for magikca there’s no legitimate defense if you’re not a Templar so you just use the same builds as always.

Sarcastic or not Master DW is probably not the most appropriate set bonus to compare sloads to. That seems to be pretty obvious regardless of what numbers you have seen.

Besides being such a narrow focus it seems comparing a 2 piece bonus to that of a 5 piece bonus does not seem appropriate. Maybe compare the numbers to other 5 pc bonuses. BTW, I am sure one can find a few 5 piece bonuses that do not perform as well. The question is how much performs better. That would be the logical path in comparing anything like this.

Its being compared to master DW because that is arguably the strongest dot weapon set right now outside of sloads. And not only that but it requires a lot of skill to acquire and one specific ability to use. But Sloads has more DPS than any other 5pc in the game overall by a large margin. Its not even an argument just fact.

Maybe. I have looked for myself. Really find most of the threads entertainment though you are actually talking about comparisons so I want to see the comparisons.

Please do link the comparisons because I do think your last comment is very wrong. I obviously want to see more than the Master DW weapon because I think that is a poor comparison to begin with.

@Vapirko

@idk here’s a link to the master dw v sloads. It’s still a good comparison because not only is it arguably the strongest dot that’s relavant to PvP it also requires you to give up a second 5 trait said. Additionally I think there’s no other 5th piece dot that can produce as much dps. So for the next best dot in PvP just in terms of dps, you have to 1) give up a 5 piece set 2) use rending slashes and 3) complete one of the most challenging contents in the game. By comparison sloads only requiement is to craft it and do damage of any kind. I mean imagine if master dw bleed proc’d a boosted bleed on any damage including siege? Although the damage is terribly OP, we’re not just talking about that alone. It’s also the thr fact that literally anyone can get access to it and that it procs constantly off any type of damage at all, meaning it’s almost a guaranteed reproc so long as whoever you’re fighting has any kind of dot from poison to entropy.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance

idk

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As for OPs bases for this thread, Zos would know for sure if build diversity has disappeared.

One can talk all they want about things in the forums without any real basis, and we often do. However, this is something that is far to easy for Zos to look at the actual numbers and either find support or lack of it. BTW, do not expect Zos to show the numbers as they really should not.

@idk the post was semi sarcastic exactly because we have hordes of people who refuse to look at the numbers. And the numbers are available, it’s already been proven that sloads far out damages even Master dw weapons. Im not a beta player, but I have been around long enough to know that ZOS will respond to enough noise on the forums (for better or worse) and this was something worth speaking up about. Is this actually killing build diversity? No, not really, it’s definitely pushing stam players towards health regen builds, for magikca there’s no legitimate defense if you’re not a Templar so you just use the same builds as always.

Sarcastic or not Master DW is probably not the most appropriate set bonus to compare sloads to. That seems to be pretty obvious regardless of what numbers you have seen.

Besides being such a narrow focus it seems comparing a 2 piece bonus to that of a 5 piece bonus does not seem appropriate. Maybe compare the numbers to other 5 pc bonuses. BTW, I am sure one can find a few 5 piece bonuses that do not perform as well. The question is how much performs better. That would be the logical path in comparing anything like this.

Its being compared to master DW because that is arguably the strongest dot weapon set right now outside of sloads. And not only that but it requires a lot of skill to acquire and one specific ability to use. But Sloads has more DPS than any other 5pc in the game overall by a large margin. Its not even an argument just fact.

Maybe. I have looked for myself. Really find most of the threads entertainment though you are actually talking about comparisons so I want to see the comparisons.

Please do link the comparisons because I do think your last comment is very wrong. I obviously want to see more than the Master DW weapon because I think that is a poor comparison to begin with.

@Vapirko

@idk here’s a link to the master dw v sloads. It’s still a good comparison because not only is it arguably the strongest dot that’s relavant to PvP it also requires you to give up a second 5 trait said. Additionally I think there’s no other 5th piece dot that can produce as much dps. So for the next best dot in PvP just in terms of dps, you have to 1) give up a 5 piece set 2) use rending slashes and 3) complete one of the most challenging contents in the game. By comparison sloads only requiement is to craft it and do damage of any kind. I mean imagine if master dw bleed proc’d a boosted bleed on any damage including siege? Although the damage is terribly OP, we’re not just talking about that alone. It’s also the thr fact that literally anyone can get access to it and that it procs constantly off any type of damage at all, meaning it’s almost a guaranteed reproc so long as whoever you’re fighting has any kind of dot from poison to entropy.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance

First, I did a quick look over his information and some extremely important information is missing that matters more for the DW comparison than the sloads number. However, a very extremely limited comparison which makes it rather meaningless outside of the extremely limited comparison.

To really see if Sloads is it needs to be compared to much more than one set bonus. A comparison to one item is really extremely weak. Just saying.

In your previous reply you were pretty definitive that sloads out does any 5 pc by a large margin found in your previous reply.

So, since it is easy to make overly general statements like that and often those types of statements are false I am going to ask you to back up your words or accept them as false.

You even state that is not an argument but a fact.

So again, I am asking you to provide supporting information for that claim. Otherwise that claim is clearly false and merely an overly generalized statement made to try to boost your overall claim. It is a pretty simple request that is very appropriate.

Vizier

TheYKcid wrote: »

^ Extremely dishonest post by @Vizier above.

You absolutely do not take a huge hit to your weapon damage when running Sload's. Comparing the 2-4 piece bonuses between Hawk's Eye and Sload's clearly shows that you're only losing 1096 stam when running the latter set.



But of course we still need to account for the Hawk's Eye 5pc bonus. Knowing your sets, we can calculate that the maximum possible stats you're running with: 30,004 stam and 4146 wep damage (and this is assuming you slotted NO regen, no triglyphs, and run all boosting modifiers possible, so it's likely a gross overestimate).

That puts your (maximum possible) base Snipe tooltip, before modifiers, at 11767.

Here are the scaling coefficients in case you don't believe me:

Damage = 0.15982 Stamina + 1.68056 WeaponDamage + 4.33429

%-based modifiers like Hawk's Eye scale directly off this value, so dropping the 5pc bonus means you're losing 11767*0.05 = 588 damage from your snipe.

Then add this to the loss of the 2-4pc stam bonus (which inflates to 1491 stam when you account for passives), and your snipe tooltip drops by another 238, which inflates to ~330 at best, since you have CP modifiers and minor berserk.

So in total, you're losing around 920 damage from your in-game snipe tooltip by choosing to run Sload's (and once again do note that this is the worst case scenario). Battlespirit halves this value to 460 actual damage.

Even if we pretend your target has absolutely zero mitigation (no armor, CP, protection/maim, NOTHING) we can already see that just the initial t=0 tick of 853 damage that Sload's applies far surpasses what Hawk's Eye would add to your snipe (even if Snipe crits!). And Sload's will continue adding this damage once every second, faster than you can even spam snipes.

So don't be disingenuous and pretend that you are "sacrificing burst for pressure". You're not sacrificing anything by running Sload's. You're gaining more burst, more pressure, a softcounter to Magsorcs, and a hard counter to Nightblades.

And don't pretend to promote diversity while supporting a set that has stripped a huge amount of build diversity out of PvP. Because I think most of us here know the real reason you're defending Sload's so adamantly.

Shrug.. That's fair. I've said in other posts on this subject, the damage output is about the same for me. And I'm not trying to sandbag anything here. I've openly stated the Oblivion damage adds a whole new dynamic.One I like and prefer. From my perspective viable oblivion damage moves the game in the right direction. For me Sload's isn't necessarily equating to more damage. I hit for less but the proc makes up the difference, but the damage is being applied to HP and not to a shield. It's not that much damage but provides just the right amount of pressure to throw off certain builds. It's definitely situational but as a StamBlade it suits my playstyle. I mean seriously it's what? ,7K over 6 seconds. The people having trouble with Sloads are used to not being in any danger so long as they can continue to put up shields and or hold block. Their builds were perfect for them to have just enough healing so they could heal under their shield or they could get away with not burst healing because they had incredible mitigation. For some a mere potion or stray mutagen sufficed so long as it could tick under their shields. Oblivion damage changes that dynamic as it should.

So now some have to slot an extra heal or purge, big wha. I'd like to be able to slot **** I used to in order to eek out a little more damage but I can't. I had to adapt and slot skills that leant towards better survivability.

I've been part of this community for some time and my observation is this... ESO does have it's sacred cows and the 1vX crowd crying over Oblivion damage, is one of them. They screamed bloody murder back when Oblivion glyphs were actually worth equipping just as they are doing now. Oblivion damage IS their hard counter. It's the same crowd that wants to duel everyone..so long as they aren't using any number of sets such as defile sets, or Leeching plate or Meridias etc. I don't see this crowd speaking out against Caluurion's for mages that bursts for way more damage than Sload's. If a set or ability interferes with THEIR build or playstyle... LOL @ the QQ. OMG I can't 1 v X when people use (Insert FOTM here). "Or our small group can't fight off 10-20 people any more, blah blah. Purge only gets rid of two effects blah blah. But you know, cloak getting rid of one negative effect was too powerful. (facepalm). On one hand they'll defend their builds after wiping the floor in a 1 v X, by saying such things as anyone can play the same classes and builds they do...L2P, but in the same breath they'll castigate glass cannon bowblades for being a pain in their asses. Like I said...cancer and it is, IMO, the primary reason why so many have left this game. Sorry man. I don't see it the same. I'd Much rather see such things as Oblivion damage buffed, the other damage types and resistances reworked to even more rock / paper / scissors. It should be that virtually every build has at least one major weakness and gets worked over vs those that build to exploit it. That just doesn't exist right now, but Oblivion damage moves the needle in the right direction.

Proc sets are part of the game, it's stupid for ZOS to spend time on them if they're just going capitulate to the QQ and nerf them into uselessness. They need to either embrace them and incorporate them into their vision of balance or just get rid of them altogether. Personally I like the variety of possibilities they provide.

Vapirko

@idk tell you what, you find me a 5th piece trait that’s stronger than Sloads in dps, easier to proc and more accessible and I’ll retract my statement.

WreckfulAbandon

I just posted this in another one of the countless sloads threads, but im reposting here for visibility. Bottom line is people: the fact that sloads is overtuned isn't good enough justification for being toxic and sending hate tells.

I know it's a lot, but hear me out. A lot of this applies to a lot of you.

What sucks most about sloads (and i recognize it is overtuned) is that people literally pull it from combat logs and say "look sloads 40% of dmg quit crutching its clear i would have won if not for sloads" Well you didn't. It's pointless to talk about what could have happened. And thats usually the beginning of a long tirade. Like chill TF out people some are just trying sloads, some recognize that they are not good and crutch on it, some defend it, some dont care and use what is good. Like when I die because a door is being uncooperative I could rage about how it shouldn't have happened. But it did.

Are we all gonna start breaking down the OP elements of people's builds whenever we lose?

-Dawnbreaker animation cancel with shalks + spin to win (WOW so skilled used 3 abilities and wiped 3 pugs)

-Stacked bleed pressure

-Easy access to high uptime on defile

-Cost increase poisons

-Fear/rune cage/fossilize

-Hiding behind engine guardian/pets

-Shieldbreaker/oblivion damage

Do this enough and you're putting yourself and others into boxes based on what you think is honorable and fair. Who deserves that mantle? Who is so objectively fair and unbiased that they have the mandate to choose what is good and bad?

So many changes "killed" 1vX, we could argue all day about which was the hardest hitting. Hell, I don't like to get hit by invisible ballistas. Or shieldbreaker or incap. I don't like to lose. But a lot of people in this community need to realize that there will always be zergs, there will always be 2v1 gankers, there will always be unbalanced sets. I never sent hate tells to people using multiple mundus stones or lightning staff+shield breaker. Or a group of 4 streamers dropping dawnbreakers on me solo. A lot of you need to chill out on the rhetoric, if something is in the game people will use it. Referring to immortal perma bat DK's from around launch as "the good old days" doesn't apply to most people who have played this game. Your glory days were their days of despair when they got farmed en masse by people who simply understood the game better and built for it, super imbalanced as it was. The game has changed and if you can't accept that, then at least try to be less dickish and condescending, or the scant few new PvPers will leave before they get their feet wet.

Feanor

From my perspective viable oblivion damage moves the game in the right direction.

Yes, because you can kill anyone on your stamBlade in 2 seconds anyway, so Oblivion damage moves the game into the direction where you can finally kill all the shield and block users as well. Because, yes, nothing should be untouchable by the ridiculous frontloaded NB burst.

I had to adapt, and that meant crafting Sload’s. ESO’s definition of getting good in 2018.

Nyladreas

blur wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We previously mentioned (maybe a few weeks back) we were going to take a look at Sloads. After doing some investigation, we'll be making some adjustments to this item set in the next update so it isn't quite as strong.

So basically you are going to ruin another set because people are too lazy or too ignorant to slot a counter.
Cyrodiil PvP is mostly zergs, Sloads is irrelevant.
BGs has at least 4 people on a team... let's be real, 1 of 4 can slot a counter that benefits the entire team.

The set isn't overpowered nor broken. You have enough sets that suck already that go directly to vendor, delete, or decon.
The fact of the matter is that players need something to whine about. I never die to sloads, ever (nor do people on my team in BGs). I run efficient purge on my bar and please don't tell me you don't have the room for it, let alone one of your group members.

There will always be a boogieman people will ***, moan, and groan about. After you are done ruining Sloads, you will see more threads asking you to ruin another set, including monster sets. Watch.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel please consider what I wrote here.


edit:
And before someone get's their pride stepped on and knee-jerk retorts, I don't even use the set, however I do see some merit in others running it.

Edit 2 :
As of right now, your hotfix today basically broke the game on PC. Now we enter BGs that are slideshows of 300-999 ping where nobody can hit anyone and people are warping all over the place. The same goes for Dungeonfinder groups. But hey, instead of fixing your game, let's worry about Sloads.

YES, PLEASE! LET'S! NO, SERIOUSLY. I WANT THAT SET GONE! PERIOD.

Vizier

TheYKcid wrote: »

^ Extremely dishonest post by @Vizier above.

You absolutely do not take a huge hit to your weapon damage when running Sload's. Comparing the 2-4 piece bonuses between Hawk's Eye and Sload's clearly shows that you're only losing 1096 stam when running the latter set.



But of course we still need to account for the Hawk's Eye 5pc bonus. Knowing your sets, we can calculate that the maximum possible stats you're running with: 30,004 stam and 4146 wep damage (and this is assuming you slotted NO regen, no triglyphs, and run all boosting modifiers possible, so it's likely a gross overestimate).

That puts your (maximum possible) base Snipe tooltip, before modifiers, at 11767.

Here are the scaling coefficients in case you don't believe me:

Damage = 0.15982 Stamina + 1.68056 WeaponDamage + 4.33429

%-based modifiers like Hawk's Eye scale directly off this value, so dropping the 5pc bonus means you're losing 11767*0.05 = 588 damage from your snipe.

Then add this to the loss of the 2-4pc stam bonus (which inflates to 1491 stam when you account for passives), and your snipe tooltip drops by another 238, which inflates to ~330 at best, since you have CP modifiers and minor berserk.

So in total, you're losing around 920 damage from your in-game snipe tooltip by choosing to run Sload's (and once again do note that this is the worst case scenario). Battlespirit halves this value to 460 actual damage.

Even if we pretend your target has absolutely zero mitigation (no armor, CP, protection/maim, NOTHING) we can already see that just the initial t=0 tick of 853 damage that Sload's applies far surpasses what Hawk's Eye would add to your snipe (even if Snipe crits!). And Sload's will continue adding this damage once every second, faster than you can even spam snipes.

So don't be disingenuous and pretend that you are "sacrificing burst for pressure". You're not sacrificing anything by running Sload's. You're gaining more burst, more pressure, a softcounter to Magsorcs, and a hard counter to Nightblades.

And don't pretend to promote diversity while supporting a set that has stripped a huge amount of build diversity out of PvP. Because I think most of us here know the real reason you're defending Sload's so adamantly.

Shrug.. That's fair. I've said in other posts on this subject the damage output is about the same.

Feanor wrote: »

From my perspective viable oblivion damage moves the game in the right direction.

Yes, because you can kill anyone on your stamBlade in 2 seconds anyway, so Oblivion damage moves the game into the direction where you can finally kill all the shield and block users as well. Because, yes, nothing should be untouchable by the ridiculous frontloaded NB burst.

I had to adapt, and that meant crafting Sload’s. ESO’s definition of getting good in 2018.

LOL- can't wait to see what happens when I pair it with Sheer Venom or Viper. Never ran proc sets on my NB before. I always ran sets like Morag Tong, Marksman, Hawk's Eye, Archer's Mind, Hunding's etc.

Been running Sload's for a couple weeks now and got a grand total of 22 kills from the proc and if it's increased my kill ratio it's flipping negligible. The only way it would actually pump up my stats would be if I ran in groups also equipping Sload's. But then again a group running with Destructive Mage or Caluurions or stacked poison or bleed builds would be WAY more effective overall. Sload's is just the current boogie man that throws a monkey wrench into a very specific entitled self sacrosanct crowd. Hopefully ZoS doesn't fall for it...again. They probably will knowing the track record.

Arthg

Vizier wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

"I don't die to Sload's so Sload's isn't the issue" is not a convincing argument.

The point is that Sload's, by being so easy to get, and by enabling players to apply crazy unmitigable damage by doing nothing but being there with their thumbs up their bottoms, is the #1 explanation why PvP gameplay at the moment is brain-dead stupid.

Where I play, it's very often (endemically) combined with Skoria - now where's the fun/skill/challenge in left-clicking to proc'?

This to me is the issue with Sload, and this set needs to be denounced for what it is: the current epitomy of the awful gameplay the devs are pushing us to adopt.

If I don't die to Sload's isn't convincing then dying to Sload's is just as weak an argument.

What is important with people speaking to their experience with Sload's not being a problem for them is to show that differences in builds and playstyle actually makes a difference as to whether or not it's a problem for you. As a BowTard Gankblade running Sload's , Spriggans and Slimecraw I take a huge hit in Weapon damage over my Hawkeye, Spriggans build. I love the extra pressure enough oblivion damage ads to the equation though. Seems to me Sload's is doing exactly what it's meant to.

The community hasn't adapted to the emergence of Oblivion damage as a viable option again. They don't want to adapt. They don't want their sacred cow God Mode 20-30k shield stack builds touched. Never mind that's every other class has had to do over and over again since launch..except for the shield stackers and perma blockers. They've pretty much been in the PvP catbird seat for years now. Sorry (not really) but I'm flipping ecstatic...orgasmic over the QQ. It's about time the PvP status quo got turned on it's head.

Use a heal and a shield instead of a double shield. Put healing ward back in your rotation. Maybe we start seeing more people running purge. The Whine over Sload's right now is SOOOOO transparent.

@ZOS KEEP IT UP. I want to see every damage type become viable such there is no such thing as a FOTM. You want to see balance in PvP. Compartmentalize every type of damage and resistance. Make players spend CP for specific buffs and resistances. (no pooled damage types on one CP node. etc.) Allow for Oblivion resistance in CP and this way it becomes truly rock / paper / scissors and we are virtually guaranteed there will be a wide range of strengths and weaknesses between each build. This way if someone gets tore up they can't really complain. They just have to build differently. About the only people that would be left to complain are those that built for specific resistances but still get tore up by that type of damage.

I get from your post you're a frustrated NB who has trouble killing sorcs, criticizes FOTM while chasing it like the rest of the flock, and derives borderline sociopathic pleasure from seeing people complain .

What I fail to see, however, is how any of your rant addresses the point I was trying to make, namely the brainless playstyle Sload induces (spam left-click, first to proc' wins!).

The sort of damage Sload inflicts should come from an abitlity that costs resources.

Feanor

Sload's is just the current boogie man that throws a monkey wrench into a very specific entitled self sacrosanct crowd.

@Vizier

I’d rather call that people who don’t like that their main defense is rendered almost useless by just equipping some sets. But from the sets you mentioned that you regularly equip I gather that you are a bow oriented player and probably unhappy that you can’t overcome shields with your ranger play style. That has more to do with an inadequate bow toolkit than with shields being OP though.

Bergzorn

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Bergzorn The sad truth is that good players are gimping themselves—massively—by not running Sload's.
...
I can't fault good players for not willingly putting themselves at a disadvantage against any average zergling.

@TheYKcid

I can fault them. Even with Sload's oblivion damage overpowering other sets, it is not so strong that a skilled player can't compete anymore in an open environment with varying skill level (I don't play batttlegrounds). Not using Sload's may put them at a disadvantage shifting the odds especially against players of their own skill level, and yes, that sucks.

But this is not about any overperforming damage set, it is about an abomination of bad game design. Be it introduced to push the sales or shift the meta or whatever, it is just totally *** up IMO, and most of the 'better' players know that. The number of Sload's users just shows how weak-minded and success horny a lot of players are.

Ok, outburst over. I'm fine, I'm fine.

idk

Vapirko wrote: »

@idk tell you what, you find me a 5th piece trait that’s stronger than Sloads in dps, easier to proc and more accessible and I’ll retract my statement.

You made the claim and it is you that cannot back up your words. Simple as that. The mere fact you choose to not back up your overgeneralization you made speaks volumes.

TheYKcid

Sload's vs. Master's dual-wield is a very valid comparison, even when you consider how they fit into the broader picture of itemisation.

Both sets can be effectively single-barred in a 5/5/2 setup or otherwise, so there's no disparity there. I'd even contend that Sload's holds the advantage in this regard, because you can always integrate it into any set of weapon choices, unlike Master's DW which effectively locks you into DW/2H (therefore forgoing the utility of S&B or bow).

Conversely, if you ran 3pc Agi + Master's DW, you're not doing yourself any big favours either. The stat bonuses from Agility equate to 2.82x of a regular 2-4pc bonus, so you're still getting less raw stats than Sload's. If you want to ignore the magicka bonus (which is fair in the case of some builds), then Agi still only provides 355 stam and 60 WD more. You can run those numbers through the calculator at UESP (I even added an extra 33% to both numbers to account for modifiers)—and it adds a mere 202 to your DBoS tooltip, a skill which enjoys pretty high scaling to begin with. Apply Battlespirit and target mitigation, and it drops to about 80 damage or less in a realistic scenario. Meanwhile Sload's is out-DPSing this by 300-400 DPS, an actual order of magnitude higher.

It's also quite unfair to claim the data provided was not broadly applicable, when I explicitly stated that I selected those 3 examples in the interest of brevity. I literally provided a working calculator for you to input your own values to see how Master's DW would perform under any permutation of CPs and crit modifiers. If the selection and combination of buffs simulated was not representative enough for you, I'd be happy to write some new cells to address any combination of buffs/debuffs you want.

I'm not sure how you can accuse others of not backing up their claims when all we've done is provide actual, numerical data. If you want to dispute the numbers, provide numbers of your own and tell us why they're more accurate.

Vapirko

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sload's vs. Master's dual-wield is a very valid comparison, even when you consider how they fit into the broader picture of itemisation.

Both sets can be effectively single-barred in a 5/5/2 setup or otherwise, so there's no disparity there. I'd even contend that Sload's holds the advantage in this regard, because you can always integrate it into any set of weapon choices, unlike Master's DW which effectively locks you into DW/2H (therefore forgoing the utility of S&B or bow).

Conversely, if you ran 3pc Agi + Master's DW, you're not doing yourself any big favours either. The stat bonuses from Agility equate to 2.82x of a regular 2-4pc bonus, so you're still getting less raw stats than Sload's. If you want to ignore the magicka bonus (which is fair in the case of some builds), then Agi still only provides 355 stam and 60 WD more. You can run those numbers through the calculator at UESP (I even added an extra 33% to both numbers to account for modifiers)—and it adds a mere 202 to your DBoS tooltip, a skill which enjoys pretty high scaling to begin with. Apply Battlespirit and target mitigation, and it drops to about 80 damage or less in a realistic scenario. Meanwhile Sload's is out-DPSing this by 300-400 DPS, an actual order of magnitude higher.

It's also quite unfair to claim the data provided was not broadly applicable, when I explicitly stated that I selected those 3 examples in the interest of brevity. I literally provided a working calculator for you to input your own values to see how Master's DW would perform under any permutation of CPs and crit modifiers. If the selection and combination of buffs simulated was not representative enough for you, I'd be happy to write some new cells to address any combination of buffs/debuffs you want.

I'm not sure how you can accuse others of not backing up their claims when all we've done is provide actual, numerical data. If you want to dispute the numbers, provide numbers of your own and tell us why they're more accurate.

The entire sloads defender population has been made of people who don’t want to look at any of the evidence. What else can you do?

@idk ive provided you with some testing numbers, I can also refer you to any of the top theory crafters like Alcast and Gilliame who have both stated openly that Sloads is OP by the numbers and by nature. So now it’s on you to prove it otherwise if you still won’t beleive it. I’m not going to retract my statement.

Vizier

Feanor wrote: »

Sload's is just the current boogie man that throws a monkey wrench into a very specific entitled self sacrosanct crowd.

@Vizier

I’d rather call that people who don’t like that their main defense is rendered almost useless by just equipping some sets. But from the sets you mentioned that you regularly equip I gather that you are a bow oriented player and probably unhappy that you can’t overcome shields with your ranger play style. That has more to do with an inadequate bow toolkit than with shields being OP though.

Shrug... Rock / Paper / Scissors man... Welcome to a NB world where hard and soft counters to our main defense pop out of woodwork. Pretty used to it. Guess what...I adapted. Cloak works well enough for me even if I'd like to see fewer things break it. (I don't mind seeing shields nulled a bit by actual viable Oblivion damage. Not one bit.) Cloak breaking, however, is only a minor issue, even with Sload's equipped. If used used right and with forethought even a stamblade can get enough casts off to break LOS. Just cast on the ticks that break cloak and drink a magpot. Even with Sload's I Solo'd last night vs multiple EP on Vivec and remained untouched by them for a good 20-30 minutes, despite inserting myself into their AO for Ambush / Execute, then extracted using Cloak, speed and terrain. Doesn't always work cuz as mentioned there are LOTS of Cloak Counters. I only bring this up because of your false assertion as to my M.O.

Additionally, there's something far more inherently wrong with 20-30k spammable damage immunity. If everything doesn't line up just right vs a sorc, he's not going to go down. Have to get the stun off initial attack, have to not get return stun from Defensive Rune, Have to be close enough with LOS for followups poison injection and light attacks likely followed by an ambush/ fear/ reverse slice. Come on, admit it. I have to wonder how many of this same crowd complained about such things as Shimmering Shield that only protects vs projectiles, oh but wait...Ball Lightning anyone? Defensive Rune? Gimmie a break. The QQ over Sload's is so transparent. It's all about keeping Oblivion damage as far away as possible from the Godlings.

Hopefully ZoS doesn't totally Jack up another set.

pieratsos

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@idk tell you what, you find me a 5th piece trait that’s stronger than Sloads in dps, easier to proc and more accessible and I’ll retract my statement.

You made the claim and it is you that cannot back up your words. Simple as that. The mere fact you choose to not back up your overgeneralization you made speaks volumes.

Overgeneralization? They literally gave you a comparison with actual numbers in multiple scenarios and sloads is beating it in every scenario. Even in the one that is hugely in favor of master DW its still beating it by more than 100%+. And thats with master DW which is also overperforming for A LOT of people.

And yet you chose to ignore that because "its a very weak comparison" according to you and when they tell you to give them one set that its better than sloads suddenly they cannot back up their words? Lmao.

How about you go ahead and compare it with viper then. Put the numbers down. And when you realise how stupid the comparison is we will see if it speaks volumes or not.