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Calling out Sorcerer haters
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
1. A potion is a terrible counter?! That’s hilarious. We’ve heard for years that detect pots and cloak is an L2P issue.
2. Incap our of stealth is already undodgable pretty much unless your psychic. And if you want to make it unblockable, fear and then incap.
I’m not disagreeing with you entirely, the range needs to be cut on cage. Sorcs can always streak closer at a huge stacked cost, and accept some risk of being dog-piled on for a change.
I'm glad you picked up on that. That was my second point. We have been told for years that pots are the answer to cloak. Why is that not the answer for Cage? Lol
Because cloak has more counters to it than the potions.
Sorcs in fact have the biggest toolkit available to deal with cloak, having access to: Curse, Boundless Storm, Streak, Meteor, Rune Cage (yes, if you use it right before NB cloaks it CCs the cloaked NB thanks to the delay) etc
...and of course Sloads.
Det pot is just icing on the cake.
Rune Cage on the other hand can't be dealt with by anything except Immovable skill (tied to heavy armor).2 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.
BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.
Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.
With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.
I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.
What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.
Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.
So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.
I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc
Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.
Come on man, let be honest here. Cage hits for around 2k in PVP. I''l be more specific. Curse is 4k, Frags is 5k, force pulse is like 1-2k, Wrath is 5k is the enemy is blow 20%. With 20k hp average we do not have the burst to get someone below execute range. *** is also a proc which may or may not happen. Meanwhile with your build you can 2 shot just about anyone from stealth. Balanced? You know Sorcs damage has been subpar for sometime. The more I think about I like the Idea of moving Cages damage to Curse. Currently no-one is scared of curse. If that damage was increase that would add the pressure need for a sorc.Edited by bardx86 on June 19, 2018 8:50PM0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not a sorc hater, but here is my build until I get bone pirate: dubious drink, master bow (infused with weapon dmg enchant, not included in numbers) and vas 2h (nirn), shacklebreaker, agility (2 weapon dmg, 1 stam regen), bloodspawn. I have 37.8k stam, 2.1k regen with just relentless (2.4k with potion too) about 21k hp, 13.2k mag with 800 mag regen and 3.3k weapon damage with only warrior stone, med armor and major brutality wearing 6 inpen and 1 well fitted. Could be much better...0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.
BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.
Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.
With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.
I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.
What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.
Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.
So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.
I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc
Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.
Come on man, let be honest here. Cage hits for around 2k in PVP. I''l be more specific. Curse is 4k, Frags is 5k, force pulse is like 1-2k, Wrath is 5k is the enemy is blow 20%. With 20k hp average we do not have the burst to get someone below execute range. *** is also a proc which may or may not happen. Meanwhile with your build you can 2 shot just about anyone from stealth. Balanced? You know Sorcs damage has been subpar for sometime. The more I think about I like the Idea of moving Cages damage to Curse. Currently no-one is scared of curse. If that damage was increase that would add the pressure need for a sorc.
Double those numbers & it's accurate vs non-tank builds, unless the sorc doesn't build for damage at all.
I also can't 2 shot just about anyone, not even close - anyone above 25k health & good CPs is going to live and anyone wearing Impreg & above 20k health is also likely to live (if they're medium I can get them mid-dodge roll with Bombard though).
Anyone with damage shields up is also going to live. Getting through sorc shields usually takes building up Assassin's Will, dropping a ballista & then Bombard->Lethal Arrow+Assassin's Will (in that order).
Having trouble bursting down tank builds isn't a sorc specific issue - it's an issue for anyone without lots of bleeds, sloads & defiles etc.Edited by DDuke on June 19, 2018 8:59PM1 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.
BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.
Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.
With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.
I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.
What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.
Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.
So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.
I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc
Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.
Come on man, let be honest here. Cage hits for around 2k in PVP. I''l be more specific. Curse is 4k, Frags is 5k, force pulse is like 1-2k, Wrath is 5k is the enemy is blow 20%. With 20k hp average we do not have the burst to get someone below execute range. *** is also a proc which may or may not happen. Meanwhile with your build you can 2 shot just about anyone from stealth. Balanced? You know Sorcs damage has been subpar for sometime. The more I think about I like the Idea of moving Cages damage to Curse. Currently no-one is scared of curse. If that damage was increase that would add the pressure need for a sorc.
Double those numbers & it's accurate vs non-tank builds, unless the sorc doesn't build for damage at all.
I also can't 2 shot just about anyone, not even close - anyone above 25k health & good CPs is going to live and anyone wearing Impreg & above 20k health is also likely to live. Anyone with damage shields up is also going to live.
Having trouble bursting down tank builds isn't a sorc specific issue - it's an issue for anyone without lots of bleeds, sloads & defiles etc.
DDuke,
I respect your input as I've read you post and don't want to sound to negative. But my numbers are correct for light and medium armor folks, I play the class every day and know what I hit for, I'm built for damage. Anyone getting hit harder are just noobs. I've played this game from the begin and I have every set and have tried them all. No one gets hit for 10k frags anymore. Meteor pre-cage hit for almost nothing. Its was to easy to block. Incap cost almost nothing and almost impossible to defined against coming out of stealth. Meteor should hit for a hell of a lot more with those conditions. Taking cage out of the picture Frags should hit for a hell of a lot more as its the easiest damage skill to avoid.4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.
BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.
Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.
With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.
I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.
What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.
Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.
So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.
I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc
Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.
Come on man, let be honest here. Cage hits for around 2k in PVP. I''l be more specific. Curse is 4k, Frags is 5k, force pulse is like 1-2k, Wrath is 5k is the enemy is blow 20%. With 20k hp average we do not have the burst to get someone below execute range. *** is also a proc which may or may not happen. Meanwhile with your build you can 2 shot just about anyone from stealth. Balanced? You know Sorcs damage has been subpar for sometime. The more I think about I like the Idea of moving Cages damage to Curse. Currently no-one is scared of curse. If that damage was increase that would add the pressure need for a sorc.
Double those numbers & it's accurate vs non-tank builds, unless the sorc doesn't build for damage at all.
I also can't 2 shot just about anyone, not even close - anyone above 25k health & good CPs is going to live and anyone wearing Impreg & above 20k health is also likely to live. Anyone with damage shields up is also going to live.
Having trouble bursting down tank builds isn't a sorc specific issue - it's an issue for anyone without lots of bleeds, sloads & defiles etc.
DDuke,
I respect your input as I've read you post and don't want to sound to negative. But my numbers are correct for light and medium armor folks, I play the class every day and know what I hit for, I'm built for damage. Anyone getting hit harder are just noobs. I've played this game from the begin and I have every set and have tried them all. No one gets hit for 10k frags anymore. Meteor pre-cage hit for almost nothing. Its was to easy to block. Incap cost almost nothing and almost impossible to defined against coming out of stealth. Meteor should hit for a hell of a lot more with those conditions. Taking cage out of the picture Frags should hit for a hell of a lot more as its the easiest damage skill to avoid.
Well, taking 10k frags as an example: I'm critting medium/light armor people all the time for 10k snipes even when they're max CP & full impen. Without Asylum buff.
In fact, if I see a number below 10k I can already tell the player is either heavy armor or using Brass/Impreg or similar tank set, or has Minor/Major Protection up.
Why is this relevant? It's relevant because a Frag proc from a high dmg Sorc has a higher tooltip than Snipe from a high dmg bow user.
Here's a overload gank video for example: https://youtu.be/6tuzk7Tz9o4 , you can see Crystal Blast doing 20k crits on people.
10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.Edited by DDuke on June 19, 2018 9:18PM1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You don't have to prove anything, Bard. Every honest player knew that sorcs couldn't kill without an ultimate during Dragon Bones.
Of course, getting the damage back on Frags would have been nicer. But I bet PvE nightblades would have cried then, instead. So giving the damage to a PvP-only skill is kinda logical, and, well, this also solves the Master destro requirement.
Unavoidable damage sucks, true. But of all people, NBs and DKs are not the ones to point fingers. Fear and Fossilize, comboed with Assassin's Will and Powerlash, or even Meteor, have been staples in kill combos for years. If anything, Wardens and Templars have a right to complain.
Oh, and if people still haven't figured out that you have to CC a sorc just before he finishes his burst combo, because that's when the shields drop, then there's no helping you.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭White wabbit wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »StamDK
Shackle-Veli/trollking
magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.
there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic
Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.
How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?
Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.
lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..
Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.
Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classesusmguy1234 wrote: »StamDK
Shackle-Veli/trollking
magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.
there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic
@Swimguy So shackle breaker... what other 5 piece?
Cp?
Stats?
Dont know im testing it out, nothing seems to fit my playstle. I run s/b and 2h. I play mostly BGS so CP isnt a bid deal. I have 3.3k Wpn dmg, 29k stam 22k hp and ~30% crit. 20k resistances+medium skill line. Since wings have been underperforming I think ill have frag shields for major medning in the future. If i play on my stamblade I still have the same problems with shields despite heavy attack incap a good sorc will just break free and reapply shield (4.5k wep, disease glyph front bar ,50% crit and 36k stam)
I mean even then, if you are running a proper build you'd be in heavy with bloodspawn or something and have like 28k hp.
Just tag them with some dots, cc them on cooldown and get ready to burst them when shields shield. Sorc shields are strong in a 1v1 sure but thats it, the game isn't balanced for 1v1's.
Or just use dot poisons and sloads.
so basically not much i can do to sorcs but get a teammate.... sounds completely balanced to me
Sloads and shield breaker:)
shieldbreaker gets me killed vs any good stam player and im not using sloads because I already have reverb bash.
What’s Sloads have to do with reverberating bash?0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You don't have to prove anything, Bard. Every honest player knew that sorcs couldn't kill without an ultimate during Dragon Bones.
Of course, getting the damage back on Frags would have been nicer. But I bet PvE nightblades would have cried then, instead. So giving the damage to a PvP-only skill is kinda logical, and, well, this also solves the Master destro requirement.
Unavoidable damage sucks, true. But of all people, NBs and DKs are not the ones to point fingers. Fear and Fossilize, comboed with Assassin's Will and Powerlash, or even Meteor, have been staples in kill combos for years. If anything, Wardens and Templars have a right to complain.
Oh, and if people still haven't figured out that you have to CC a sorc just before he finishes his burst combo, because that's when the shields drop, then there's no helping you.
Fear and Fossilize are both melee range abilities (and thus inherently have a "counter" in the form of kiting) and both deal far less damage than Rune Cage.
Fossilize is half of Rune Cage's tooltip where as Fear deals no damage and is actually a pretty bad skill for burst as a good opponent can easily CC break and dodge roll/block the follow-up.
Most NBs who know what they're doing use cloak->surprise attack or Incap for the CC, as those actually deal damage during the precious few seconds you have to burst people down.
If Fear is slotted it's mainly there for the stam drain vs permablockers & Minor Maim on targets hit.
Or people use the trap morph to circumvent the GCD trigger - which has a pretty simple counterplay to it: don't step on it.
Also, I'd like to know which stamina ranged skill you want me to use to CC a sorc 20m away about to combo me with Rune Cage. Or a sorc that is CC immune when the Curse+Cage are about to go off.
All these magical "counters" people talk of have some pretty serious flaws on them and just don't really match up with reality.Edited by DDuke on June 19, 2018 9:38PM1 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »generalmyrick wrote: »i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.
Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.
@Sevn Lol there is literally a meme about nerf sorc threads. I'm sure the other classes started poop throwing first and sorc mains finally said if you can't beat em might as well join em.
The thing is, I've been playing for over two years and as far as I can tell magsorcs have been powerful for a long time. Serious question, at what point were magsorcs not top tier or just under? So it just baffles me that a class so powerful for so long could complain about other classes that get to shine for a tiny fraction of the time they've been allowed to shine.
I don't have a main though I find myself using my stampler more than any other class. I'm a casual pvper but I love it though I'm terrible and I die all the time. I would not know if something is op or not and I've never ran to the forums to complain about dying to something deemed op, but I am now a convert.
I'll be using a magsorc as my main from here on out. Just got a build that will allow me to even stay on one bar and dish out almost 20k dps for my PvE needs. How easy is that? Can't beat em, join em.
Dude stamplar can put out some top of the line dps in pve and is a very strong counter to sorcerers. Potl>javelin>rending>jabs>>gg
Potl>dizzying>jabs>>gg
I don't remember complaining about my stampler's performance? You also completely ignored my one and only question.
@Sevn I ignored it because it's irrelevant to a pvp based discussion.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Experienced this today in BGs. 11k frags in DR, endless fury between 4k to 5k. If you have one sorc and one stamina class with frontloaded burst in a team they're able to melt through their enemies (Without procsets). Sometimes multiple enemies delete 14k of my health in one tick.magNB - no CP stats, only bufffood
5 heavy
25,7k health
16,2k magRes
15,8k phyRes
1032 critResEdited by ChefZero on June 19, 2018 9:46PMPC EU - DC only2 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Experienced this today in BGs. 11k frags in DR, endless fury between 4k to 5k. If you have one sorc and one stamina class with frontloaded burst in a team they're able to melt through their enemies (Without procsets). Sometimes multiple enemies delete 14k of my health in one tick.
magNB - no CP stats, only bufffood
5 heavy
25,7k health
16,2k magRes
15,8k phyRes
1032 critRes[/spoiler]
Those resists are tiny with heavy armor. Those are medium resists at best.
Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You don't have to prove anything, Bard. Every honest player knew that sorcs couldn't kill without an ultimate during Dragon Bones.
Of course, getting the damage back on Frags would have been nicer. But I bet PvE nightblades would have cried then, instead. So giving the damage to a PvP-only skill is kinda logical, and, well, this also solves the Master destro requirement.
Unavoidable damage sucks, true. But of all people, NBs and DKs are not the ones to point fingers. Fear and Fossilize, comboed with Assassin's Will and Powerlash, or even Meteor, have been staples in kill combos for years. If anything, Wardens and Templars have a right to complain.
Oh, and if people still haven't figured out that you have to CC a sorc just before he finishes his burst combo, because that's when the shields drop, then there's no helping you.
Fear and Fossilize are both melee range abilities (and thus inherently have a "counter" in the form of kiting) and both deal far less damage than Rune Cage.
Fossilize is half of Rune Cage's tooltip where as Fear deals no damage and is actually a pretty bad skill for burst as a good opponent can easily CC break and dodge roll/block the follow-up.
Most NBs who know what they're doing use cloak->surprise attack or Incap for the CC, as those actually deal damage during the precious few seconds you have to burst people down.
If Fear is slotted it's mainly there for the stam drain vs permablockers & Minor Maim on targets hit.
Or people use the trap morph to circumvent the GCD trigger - which has a pretty simple counterplay to it: don't step on it.
Also, I'd like to know which stamina ranged skill you want me to use to CC a sorc 20m away about to combo me with Rune Cage. Or a sorc that is CC immune when the Curse+Cage are about to go off.
All these magical "counters" people talk of have some pretty serious flaws on them and just don't really match up with reality.
Ranged combat doesn't exist in Cyrodiil. If a sorc can kite you with a snare applied, you are spacing poorly.
Fossilize doesn't need damage at all. DKs are about DoT pressure and burst as a finisher insted of execute. Stam DKs have even more burst.
Fear is known to be clunky. The reality is that you can't break it before a certain time window passed, enough time to guarantee the bow hit. Don't give me that, because you can just as easily break Cage and block the Frag if far enough away.
As for stamina, you use your gap closer. And if you grant a sorc CC immunity when his shields drop, your timing is off. I can't kill you with CC immunity up, neither.0 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Experienced this today in BGs. 11k frags in DR, endless fury between 4k to 5k. If you have one sorc and one stamina class with frontloaded burst in a team they're able to melt through their enemies (Without procsets). Sometimes multiple enemies delete 14k of my health in one tick.
magNB - no CP stats, only bufffood
5 heavy
25,7k health
16,2k magRes
15,8k phyRes
1032 critRes[/spoiler]
Those resists are tiny with heavy armor. Those are medium resists at best.
Nope, no CP stats. Gear is full golden. You can't get higher res on NB without pushing resis by sets or buffs.PC EU - DC only1 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Experienced this today in BGs. 11k frags in DR, endless fury between 4k to 5k. If you have one sorc and one stamina class with frontloaded burst in a team they're able to melt through their enemies (Without procsets). Sometimes multiple enemies delete 14k of my health in one tick.
magNB - no CP stats, only bufffood
5 heavy
25,7k health
16,2k magRes
15,8k phyRes
1032 critRes[/spoiler]
Those resists are tiny with heavy armor. Those are medium resists at best.
Nope, no CP stats. Gear is full golden. You can't get higher res on NB without pushing resis by sets or buffs.
How does this build fare against other classes?Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »generalmyrick wrote: »i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.
Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.
@Sevn Lol there is literally a meme about nerf sorc threads. I'm sure the other classes started poop throwing first and sorc mains finally said if you can't beat em might as well join em.
The thing is, I've been playing for over two years and as far as I can tell magsorcs have been powerful for a long time. Serious question, at what point were magsorcs not top tier or just under? So it just baffles me that a class so powerful for so long could complain about other classes that get to shine for a tiny fraction of the time they've been allowed to shine.
I don't have a main though I find myself using my stampler more than any other class. I'm a casual pvper but I love it though I'm terrible and I die all the time. I would not know if something is op or not and I've never ran to the forums to complain about dying to something deemed op, but I am now a convert.
I'll be using a magsorc as my main from here on out. Just got a build that will allow me to even stay on one bar and dish out almost 20k dps for my PvE needs. How easy is that? Can't beat em, join em.
Dude stamplar can put out some top of the line dps in pve and is a very strong counter to sorcerers. Potl>javelin>rending>jabs>>gg
Potl>dizzying>jabs>>gg
I don't remember complaining about my stampler's performance? You also completely ignored my one and only question.
@Sevn I ignored it because it's irrelevant to a pvp based discussion.
No worries, never expected you to admit it anyway lol.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@DDuke
What would you do, then?
Given Dragone Bones' situation, here's what you need to change:
1. Sorc can't burst kill without an ultimate. Dawnbreaker is melee and doesn't synergize, Meteor is easily blocked. DoT pressure is non-existant, so burst has to be lethal.
2. To properly stun with damage, a Master destro is required, essentially locking anyone out from top-performance, who can't get a good four-man team.
3. Sustain is bottom-tier. Heavy staff attacks are easily countered, Streak invokes a penalty, Dark Conversion sucks stamina and time. Essentially, donning two sustain sets (Shacklebreaker and Lich) is required, forcing you to miss out on a damage or defense set like Necropotence or Wizard's Riposte. Julianos and Willpower, even.0 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Experienced this today in BGs. 11k frags in DR, endless fury between 4k to 5k. If you have one sorc and one stamina class with frontloaded burst in a team they're able to melt through their enemies (Without procsets). Sometimes multiple enemies delete 14k of my health in one tick.
magNB - no CP stats, only bufffood
5 heavy
25,7k health
16,2k magRes
15,8k phyRes
1032 critRes[/spoiler]
Those resists are tiny with heavy armor. Those are medium resists at best.
Nope, no CP stats. Gear is full golden. You can't get higher res on NB without pushing resis by sets or buffs.
How does this build fare against other classes?
Good. Atm I think magNB is weak dmgwise compared to sorc and stamina burst in BGs. Why? Cause I don't encounter often other magNBs and the few aren't dangerous 1v1.
With shadow buff and Onslaught I can easily break hardcap on resis btw.PC EU - DC only0 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Experienced this today in BGs. 11k frags in DR, endless fury between 4k to 5k. If you have one sorc and one stamina class with frontloaded burst in a team they're able to melt through their enemies (Without procsets). Sometimes multiple enemies delete 14k of my health in one tick.
magNB - no CP stats, only bufffood
5 heavy
25,7k health
16,2k magRes
15,8k phyRes
1032 critRes[/spoiler]
Those resists are tiny with heavy armor. Those are medium resists at best.
Nope, no CP stats. Gear is full golden. You can't get higher res on NB without pushing resis by sets or buffs.
How does this build fare against other classes?
Good. Atm I think magNB is weak dmgwise compared to sorc and stamina burst in BGs. Why? Cause I don't encounter often other magNBs and the few aren't dangerous 1v1.
With shadow buff and Onslaught I can easily break hardcap on resis btw.
I don't know. I've been hit with 14k (can't remember the skill)... It's the one you power up with light attacks. I've never hit anyone that hard with my sorc.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.
BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.
Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.
With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.
I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.
What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.
Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.
So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.
I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc
Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.
Come on man, let be honest here. Cage hits for around 2k in PVP. I''l be more specific. Curse is 4k, Frags is 5k, force pulse is like 1-2k, Wrath is 5k is the enemy is blow 20%. With 20k hp average we do not have the burst to get someone below execute range. *** is also a proc which may or may not happen. Meanwhile with your build you can 2 shot just about anyone from stealth. Balanced? You know Sorcs damage has been subpar for sometime. The more I think about I like the Idea of moving Cages damage to Curse. Currently no-one is scared of curse. If that damage was increase that would add the pressure need for a sorc.
Double those numbers & it's accurate vs non-tank builds, unless the sorc doesn't build for damage at all.
I also can't 2 shot just about anyone, not even close - anyone above 25k health & good CPs is going to live and anyone wearing Impreg & above 20k health is also likely to live. Anyone with damage shields up is also going to live.
Having trouble bursting down tank builds isn't a sorc specific issue - it's an issue for anyone without lots of bleeds, sloads & defiles etc.
DDuke,
I respect your input as I've read you post and don't want to sound to negative. But my numbers are correct for light and medium armor folks, I play the class every day and know what I hit for, I'm built for damage. Anyone getting hit harder are just noobs. I've played this game from the begin and I have every set and have tried them all. No one gets hit for 10k frags anymore. Meteor pre-cage hit for almost nothing. Its was to easy to block. Incap cost almost nothing and almost impossible to defined against coming out of stealth. Meteor should hit for a hell of a lot more with those conditions. Taking cage out of the picture Frags should hit for a hell of a lot more as its the easiest damage skill to avoid.
Well, taking 10k frags as an example: I'm critting medium/light armor people all the time for 10k snipes even when they're max CP & full impen. Without Asylum buff.
In fact, if I see a number below 10k I can already tell the player is either heavy armor or using Brass/Impreg or similar tank set, or has Minor/Major Protection up.
Why is this relevant? It's relevant because a Frag proc from a high dmg Sorc has a higher tooltip than Snipe from a high dmg bow user.
Here's a overload gank video for example: https://youtu.be/6tuzk7Tz9o4 , you can see Crystal Blast doing 20k crits on people.
10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Thats the thing Duke, you can build a high damage and be competitive on NB. Cloak gives you that option. Sorcs don't have that option. Yes there are one off gank builds but they are the outliers. Yes I can build for max damage but then I have zero sustain, Zero stamina. I wouldn't call those builds competitive or even functional. So i'm sure you hit for 10k, I get hit all the time for 10k with snipe as THERE IS NO COUNTER PLAY. Honestly, how often do you get hit for 10k from Frags?Edited by bardx86 on June 19, 2018 11:03PM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭generalmyrick wrote: »i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.
Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.
Pretty much everyone who asked for nerfs of any class is because they do not want to alter their build or figure out how to deal with it. People want the game to bend to their playstyle and level. Not the other way around.
Nothing wrong with that honestly - the game should cater to variety of playstyles & not just a few meta builds.
I mean, one can't really expect people to adopt playstyles they don't enjoy. For these people it's easier to complain on the forums & then quit the game if nothing changes.
After all, that's what game balancing boils down to: ensuring as wide variety of people as possible can enjoy the game.
The game does cater to all sorts of playstyles. The game is truly play as you want.
However, that does not and cannot mean every playstyle is just as effective as another playstyle. In every MMORPG there are always specific builds that shine in specific situations.
Game balancing does take specific items that are truly over performing and makes adjustments but it should never take into account a player who, as you describe, prefers to not figure out how to deal with something and nerf that something down to their level.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »StamDK
Shackle-Veli/trollking
magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.
there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic
Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.
How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?
Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.
Implying a stamDk can have good uptime on wings...
You cant even tell the difference between a mDk and a sDk yet you act like you know it all....Edited by Ragnarock41 on June 20, 2018 12:17AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.
BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.
Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.
With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.
I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.
What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.
Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.
So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.
I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc
Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.
Come on man, let be honest here. Cage hits for around 2k in PVP. I''l be more specific. Curse is 4k, Frags is 5k, force pulse is like 1-2k, Wrath is 5k is the enemy is blow 20%. With 20k hp average we do not have the burst to get someone below execute range. *** is also a proc which may or may not happen. Meanwhile with your build you can 2 shot just about anyone from stealth. Balanced? You know Sorcs damage has been subpar for sometime. The more I think about I like the Idea of moving Cages damage to Curse. Currently no-one is scared of curse. If that damage was increase that would add the pressure need for a sorc.
Double those numbers & it's accurate vs non-tank builds, unless the sorc doesn't build for damage at all.
I also can't 2 shot just about anyone, not even close - anyone above 25k health & good CPs is going to live and anyone wearing Impreg & above 20k health is also likely to live. Anyone with damage shields up is also going to live.
Having trouble bursting down tank builds isn't a sorc specific issue - it's an issue for anyone without lots of bleeds, sloads & defiles etc.
DDuke,
I respect your input as I've read you post and don't want to sound to negative. But my numbers are correct for light and medium armor folks, I play the class every day and know what I hit for, I'm built for damage. Anyone getting hit harder are just noobs. I've played this game from the begin and I have every set and have tried them all. No one gets hit for 10k frags anymore. Meteor pre-cage hit for almost nothing. Its was to easy to block. Incap cost almost nothing and almost impossible to defined against coming out of stealth. Meteor should hit for a hell of a lot more with those conditions. Taking cage out of the picture Frags should hit for a hell of a lot more as its the easiest damage skill to avoid.
Well, taking 10k frags as an example: I'm critting medium/light armor people all the time for 10k snipes even when they're max CP & full impen. Without Asylum buff.
In fact, if I see a number below 10k I can already tell the player is either heavy armor or using Brass/Impreg or similar tank set, or has Minor/Major Protection up.
Why is this relevant? It's relevant because a Frag proc from a high dmg Sorc has a higher tooltip than Snipe from a high dmg bow user.
Here's a overload gank video for example: https://youtu.be/6tuzk7Tz9o4 , you can see Crystal Blast doing 20k crits on people.
10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Thats the thing Duke, you can build a high damage and be competitive on NB. Cloak gives you that option. Sorcs don't have that option. Yes there are one off gank builds but they are the outliers. Yes I can build for max damage but then I have zero sustain, Zero stamina. I wouldn't call those builds competitive or even functional. So i'm sure you hit for 10k, I get hit all the time for 10k with snipe as THERE IS NO COUNTER PLAY. Honestly, how often do you get hit for 10k from Frags?
Well I'm not really looking at the overall competitiveness of various builds - just the effect they have on gameplay.
If I happen to be playing perfectly, making no mistakes & reacting in time to everything and I still die because a sorc in a full dmg PvE build (well, in like Julianos style gear not Siroria etc) showed up to the fight (the survivability/sustain/skill of that sorc doesn't matter) & hit the Rune Cage button disabling all my defenses from up to 36m away while dealing 4-6k damage, then there's a problem.
If I get hit by a sniper then atleast I can think "oh, I should've dodge rolled that" since there's always a small window to react (or you can play proactively and block/keep dmg shield up).
If I get blown up by Leap or Dawnbreaker (as a stage 4 vamp) I can think: "hey, I should've known that was coming & blocked it and/or kited better (long range leaps are easy to reactively block).
With Rune Cage combos none of those thoughts apply, there's nothing to learn from those deaths except "I should play tank build like others" and that's the problem.
I mean, if you look at the skill right now it has bigger tooltip damage than the dodgeable/blockable Flame Reach and it's even cheaper - how can anyone justify that?generalmyrick wrote: »i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.
Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.
Pretty much everyone who asked for nerfs of any class is because they do not want to alter their build or figure out how to deal with it. People want the game to bend to their playstyle and level. Not the other way around.
Nothing wrong with that honestly - the game should cater to variety of playstyles & not just a few meta builds.
I mean, one can't really expect people to adopt playstyles they don't enjoy. For these people it's easier to complain on the forums & then quit the game if nothing changes.
After all, that's what game balancing boils down to: ensuring as wide variety of people as possible can enjoy the game.
The game does cater to all sorts of playstyles. The game is truly play as you want.
However, that does not and cannot mean every playstyle is just as effective as another playstyle. In every MMORPG there are always specific builds that shine in specific situations.
Game balancing does take specific items that are truly over performing and makes adjustments but it should never take into account a player who, as you describe, prefers to not figure out how to deal with something and nerf that something down to their level.
Well, I'm not saying 2 medium 3 light 2 heavy destro bow builds with undaunted skills should be strong or anything like that.
No.
You brought up other MMORPGs and that's sort of where I'm leaning towards with this.
I don't know of any other MMORPG where players are pushed to only play tanks if they want to survive in the game.
ESO's class structure is different, your build (rather than class, like in other RPGs) largely dictates what kind of a character archetype you play.
Whether there's a min-max'd BiS build for each archetype specifically that's another matter, but you can't pretend to be playing a "rogue" or "assassin" character when your focus isn't stealth & avoiding attacks but rather tanking them.
In short, it isn't about certain builds suffering from high undodgeable/unblockable burst - it's about certain playstyles suffering from it.Edited by DDuke on June 20, 2018 12:20AM0 -
OGLezard✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »StamDK
Shackle-Veli/trollking
magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.
there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic
Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.
How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?
Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.
lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..
Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.
Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes
Lulz!!!! It's your build mate. If you keep a sorc on defense and force him to recast his shields, they go out of magicka QUICK! If they dont and they are a regen build, then they lack damage and are just annoying and not deadly.
If you know he is just going to light attack your wings off or wait it out, then recast wings, apply pressure, force him to make a move and since you know the obvious combo, act accordingly.
Break free hold block.
P.s.
I'm a sorc main and have been since beta. Other classes have bored the crap out of me.
I also dont run conventional sorc builds and do just fine. Its great when people expect and start anticipating the classic sorc combo, but instead you throw them for a loop with something different they didnt see coming and they drop.
Edited by OGLezard on June 20, 2018 1:22AM0 -
ReverseVenom✭✭✭My only problem is the curse/shield/shield/runecage/meteor/endless fury
Sorcs have a cool playstyle and all that but I feel like they should be a greater threat at a distance and less so up close. Right now they have too much defense for their offense.
I play stamblade, magdk, magsorc, tankden, and healden in pvp so I'm not just bitching about them being able to kill my one trick either.Nerf mudcrabs0 -
OGLezard✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »So I’ll play this game. Hopefully I do get some decent suggestions from Mag Sorc Mains.
Woodelf NB DW 2h
Truth Bone Pirate
41k Stam
4800 WD
41 Crit
2600 Inpen
3100 Stam Regen buffed
23k Health
Trying not to be a cloaking guy through the entire fight. Sorc has mines and Engine Guardian. And is of a very high experience level.
The scenario is generally like this. I’ll light attack to start a fight. Mine go down and engine Guardian is up. I have to have perfect timing on a combo(generally heavy surprise incap scourge) to make sure they are not fully shielded. Trying to land this combo is very difficult considering that have to have about 3k Shield left no CC immunity No engine Guardian up and No mines down. If almost any of these circumstances are met they will end up surviving.
They on the other hand they don’t have to worry about the majority of their combo. They sit in mines and behind engine Guardian. Even if I bash the engine it still gets 2-3 seconds of being targeted before it goes into the ground. That’s if 2-3 engine guards aren’t up or just continuously spawning back to back. They curse fury with drag in hand. Both curse and fury (at least the execute portion is undodgeable) then they meteor tune frag. Turns meteor unblockable frag undodgeable with the other two moves being unblockable and undodgeable. If I dont die then by this point I’m almost out of everything trying to survive. Then die to the second hit of curse and multiple undodgeable Endless fury executes.
If I attack to quickly then I either get Mined and stunned in them if Engine Guardian takes the full combo it starts all over.
This is pretty close to what the majority of the fight go with High end Magic Sorcs. Their combo is almost 100% undodgeable and unblockable. Mine is dodgeable blockable in melee range and hits Engine Guardian 40% of the time.
This is if they don’t stay stacking for 5 mins wasting all my resources.
@Koolio fear is your friend
Fear doesn’t kill. I can stun them all day. But In The end all damage just hits shields. If they are plebs they get destroyed. But that’s any class. I’m talking about high end Mag sorcs that are very experienced. I have a 15.5k tooltip on surprise attack. Even with great timing I’ll still end up hitting Engine. I can actually drain Stam if I use rearming to the point I can get a long CC duration.
I try not to cheese it too much on that build in particular build. Other classes I have a better time with them other than Stam Sorc.
If I get them to 50% Health shields are non stop until they are good. If I get close to 80% and make the slightest mistake it’s 15k plus Damage that I can’t block or dodge.
Mix this in with two mag sorcs and gg.
I’ve played a good bit of mag Sorc too. Ava rank like 35 or so just on my Sorc. It’s very easy compared to DW Magblade. Oh do I wish Charged enchant worked on shields.
Me personally I would say changed tune cage to cost stamina.
Time the fear....when shields drop fear them into your burst.
If you lure them into a false sense of security and they forget to recast shields, that's your window.
Or create your own window by lowering the shield a little bit, fear, burst.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.
I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.
The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.
You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.
You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?
Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).
Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).
So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.
Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.
I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.
Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.
The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.
BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.
Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.
With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.
I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.
What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.
Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.
So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.
I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc
Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.
Come on man, let be honest here. Cage hits for around 2k in PVP. I''l be more specific. Curse is 4k, Frags is 5k, force pulse is like 1-2k, Wrath is 5k is the enemy is blow 20%. With 20k hp average we do not have the burst to get someone below execute range. *** is also a proc which may or may not happen. Meanwhile with your build you can 2 shot just about anyone from stealth. Balanced? You know Sorcs damage has been subpar for sometime. The more I think about I like the Idea of moving Cages damage to Curse. Currently no-one is scared of curse. If that damage was increase that would add the pressure need for a sorc.
Double those numbers & it's accurate vs non-tank builds, unless the sorc doesn't build for damage at all.
I also can't 2 shot just about anyone, not even close - anyone above 25k health & good CPs is going to live and anyone wearing Impreg & above 20k health is also likely to live. Anyone with damage shields up is also going to live.
Having trouble bursting down tank builds isn't a sorc specific issue - it's an issue for anyone without lots of bleeds, sloads & defiles etc.
DDuke,
I respect your input as I've read you post and don't want to sound to negative. But my numbers are correct for light and medium armor folks, I play the class every day and know what I hit for, I'm built for damage. Anyone getting hit harder are just noobs. I've played this game from the begin and I have every set and have tried them all. No one gets hit for 10k frags anymore. Meteor pre-cage hit for almost nothing. Its was to easy to block. Incap cost almost nothing and almost impossible to defined against coming out of stealth. Meteor should hit for a hell of a lot more with those conditions. Taking cage out of the picture Frags should hit for a hell of a lot more as its the easiest damage skill to avoid.
Well, taking 10k frags as an example: I'm critting medium/light armor people all the time for 10k snipes even when they're max CP & full impen. Without Asylum buff.
In fact, if I see a number below 10k I can already tell the player is either heavy armor or using Brass/Impreg or similar tank set, or has Minor/Major Protection up.
Why is this relevant? It's relevant because a Frag proc from a high dmg Sorc has a higher tooltip than Snipe from a high dmg bow user.
Here's a overload gank video for example: https://youtu.be/6tuzk7Tz9o4 , you can see Crystal Blast doing 20k crits on people.
10k with a Frag (+10% more dmg) on a well geared character isn't that unrealistic, you've just gotta build for it.
I do know most sorcs build for sustain (lucky for me), but every once in a while you come across someone in a full dmg setup who just deletes you with the first Rune Cage and there's nothing you can (or could've) done about it.
Thats the thing Duke, you can build a high damage and be competitive on NB. Cloak gives you that option. Sorcs don't have that option. Yes there are one off gank builds but they are the outliers. Yes I can build for max damage but then I have zero sustain, Zero stamina. I wouldn't call those builds competitive or even functional. So i'm sure you hit for 10k, I get hit all the time for 10k with snipe as THERE IS NO COUNTER PLAY. Honestly, how often do you get hit for 10k from Frags?
Well I'm not really looking at the overall competitiveness of various builds - just the effect they have on gameplay.
If I happen to be playing perfectly, making no mistakes & reacting in time to everything and I still die because a sorc in a full dmg PvE build (well, in like Julianos style gear not Siroria etc) showed up to the fight (the survivability/sustain/skill of that sorc doesn't matter) & hit the Rune Cage button disabling all my defenses from up to 36m away while dealing 4-6k damage, then there's a problem.
If I get hit by a sniper then atleast I can think "oh, I should've dodge rolled that" since there's always a small window to react (or you can play proactively and block/keep dmg shield up).
If I get blown up by Leap or Dawnbreaker (as a stage 4 vamp) I can think: "hey, I should've known that was coming & blocked it and/or kited better (long range leaps are easy to reactively block).
With Rune Cage combos none of those thoughts apply, there's nothing to learn from those deaths except "I should play tank build like others" and that's the problem.
I mean, if you look at the skill right now it has bigger tooltip damage than the dodgeable/blockable Flame Reach and it's even cheaper - how can anyone justify that?generalmyrick wrote: »i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.
Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.
Pretty much everyone who asked for nerfs of any class is because they do not want to alter their build or figure out how to deal with it. People want the game to bend to their playstyle and level. Not the other way around.
Nothing wrong with that honestly - the game should cater to variety of playstyles & not just a few meta builds.
I mean, one can't really expect people to adopt playstyles they don't enjoy. For these people it's easier to complain on the forums & then quit the game if nothing changes.
After all, that's what game balancing boils down to: ensuring as wide variety of people as possible can enjoy the game.
The game does cater to all sorts of playstyles. The game is truly play as you want.
However, that does not and cannot mean every playstyle is just as effective as another playstyle. In every MMORPG there are always specific builds that shine in specific situations.
Game balancing does take specific items that are truly over performing and makes adjustments but it should never take into account a player who, as you describe, prefers to not figure out how to deal with something and nerf that something down to their level.
Well, I'm not saying 2 medium 3 light 2 heavy destro bow builds with undaunted skills should be strong or anything like that.
No.
You brought up other MMORPGs and that's sort of where I'm leaning towards with this.
I don't know of any other MMORPG where players are pushed to only play tanks if they want to survive in the game.
ESO's class structure is different, your build (rather than class, like in other RPGs) largely dictates what kind of a character archetype you play.
Whether there's a min-max'd BiS build for each archetype specifically that's another matter, but you can't pretend to be playing a "rogue" or "assassin" character when your focus isn't stealth & avoiding attacks but rather tanking them.
In short, it isn't about certain builds suffering from high undodgeable/unblockable burst - it's about certain playstyles suffering from it.
I reviewed the history of our conversation and do not see mention of other MMOs. Of course I am sure I have mentioned other MMOs before.
The rest of your reply does not makes sense because you state the obvious that any class can build for any role. However it does not push players to play as a tank or tankish. It really is not needed.
Players can play as they want. There are good PvP players that play PvP as glass cannons and good ones that play as tanks. There are some that cannot play well in either roll. Part of what makes ESO great is the choices we have, though again, some choices perform better than other choices.
But since you are bringing up other MMOs, and we will talk about MMORPGs since that is what ESO is, there are still certain builds that perform well in PvP and certain builds that do not. Even with MMORPGs that do not offer near as much choice as ESO does. It is just a simple fact.0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Man, I never realized Sorcs were this much of a problem. If I am coming back, I am playing on Sorc to be the supreme god overlord of Tamriel.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel3 -
RighteousBacon✭✭✭✭I have no problem to remove the damage from rune cage. But we need an unblockable and undodable CC otherwise wont wont kill rollerblades or Builds with a lot block capacity
I’m fine with rune cage being undodgeable, however, if I’m not mistaken, besides sorc, nightblade is the only class that actually has an unblockable stun in its class skill lines. The difference is that nightblade have to be close, which involves risk.
Rune cage, on the other hand, is ranged and is especially useful when you outnumber your opponent (you little zergling sorcs, spamming rune cage and fury). Mass hysteria is especially good when the user is outnumbered (which is arguably less scummy in a way). Do you see my point?
Lastly, most classes have trouble dealing full damage to block builds, besides nightblade and sorc. But when it comes to timing sorc has more potential than nightblade. And we all know that timing is the most important dps factor when you’re fighting a block build. You have a short window to actually deal damage while their block is down. So basically, if sorcs lost there unblockable stun they’d just be more on par with the other 3 classes that don’t have one.0 -
RighteousBacon✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »StamDK
Shackle-Veli/trollking
magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.
there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic
Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.
How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?
Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.
lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..
Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.
Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes
XD XD XD
Dude you’re either trolling or getting blatantly outplayed. Plus if you are new you are likely up against players with more experience and cp (skill lol)0