Calling out Sorcerer haters

idk

Sevn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.

Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.

Pretty much everyone who asked for nerfs of any class is because they do not want to alter their build or figure out how to deal with it. People want the game to bend to their playstyle and level. Not the other way around.

Vapirko

usmguy1234 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sorcs are fine.

The only thing i don't agree with is rune cage, it's a stupid skill on a class that times multiple skills for burst. There is no counterplay just got to eat a curse/ meteor/ frag/ rune cage + fury.

That and the fact you can't do anything about dark deal if they have cc immunity, just gotta let them get 5k hp and stats a cast..

Fair enough. I don't even use rune cage on my sorc.

Mihael wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sorcs are fine.

The only thing i don't agree with is rune cage, it's a stupid skill on a class that times multiple skills for burst. There is no counterplay just got to eat a curse/ meteor/ frag/ rune cage + fury.

That and the fact you can't do anything about dark deal if they have cc immunity, just gotta let them get 5k hp and stats a cast..

Yeah I think tune cage is the main problem specially after they took away wardens cc because it dealt damage lol

I know ppl say rune hits for 3-5k. How much damage does skalks do?

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

usmguy1234

Sevn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.

Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.

@Sevn Lol there is literally a meme about nerf sorc threads. I'm sure the other classes started poop throwing first and sorc mains finally said if you can't beat em might as well join em.

DDuke

idk wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.

Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.

Pretty much everyone who asked for nerfs of any class is because they do not want to alter their build or figure out how to deal with it. People want the game to bend to their playstyle and level. Not the other way around.

Nothing wrong with that honestly - the game should cater to variety of playstyles & not just a few meta builds.

I mean, one can't really expect people to adopt playstyles they don't enjoy. For these people it's easier to complain on the forums & then quit the game if nothing changes.


After all, that's what game balancing boils down to: ensuring as wide variety of people as possible can enjoy the game.

Solariken

I appreciate the effort but this thread is a waste of time. Everyone knows Rune Cage is stupid OP and gives zero opportunity for counterplay or survival when outnumbered.

Sorc has other issues too of course, some of which favor the class (shield stacking) and some don't (goofy mobility in some situations), but pale in comparison to the glaring Rune Cage problem.

brandonv516

usmguy1234 wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Rune cage should have a shorter range.

@brandonv516 I don't know what all the rage is about. I tried it out and half the time it was grayed out and I couldn't use it. I think some type of immunity bug going on. Anyways I found it less useful than flame reach.

Oh immunity is definitely wonky this patch.

Wait until you get a Rune Cage from one Sorcerer, break free, and then another Sorcerer still knocks you back with Flame Reach.

Minalan

Sevn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.

Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.

The only thing I’m complaining about is Magicka proc sets. The devs spent time and effort taking the instant death out of stamina proc sets. Viper. Selene. Velidreth. Etc. none of them are as powerful as they were.

Then they added Zaan and Caluurion. Wtf?

Sure I can use them, they’re Magicka sets that work good enough on a Sorc. Sure I can ‘change my build’ and join the proc meta. But I’d much rather not be a part of that. Letting my proc sets kill people isn’t fun.

Sloads I don’t really care about, it’s sort of cancer against every class. Shield Sorcs. Cloak players. Block builds. Dodge rollers.

Galarthor

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

Feanor

I just find it funny how few people actually earnestly posted their build and tried a constructive discussion.

usmguy1234

Solariken wrote: »

I appreciate the effort but this thread is a waste of time. Everyone knows Rune Cage is stupid OP and gives zero opportunity for counterplay or survival when outnumbered.

Sorc has other issues too of course, some of which favor the class (shield stacking) and some don't (goofy mobility in some situations), but pale in comparison to the glaring Rune Cage problem.

@Solariken **When outnumbered**...I run solo...I know that pain even as a sorc main. So can we agree on a nerf zerg thread? Or nerf multiple players ganging up on one person thread?

Solariken

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I appreciate the effort but this thread is a waste of time. Everyone knows Rune Cage is stupid OP and gives zero opportunity for counterplay or survival when outnumbered.

Sorc has other issues too of course, some of which favor the class (shield stacking) and some don't (goofy mobility in some situations), but pale in comparison to the glaring Rune Cage problem.

@Solariken **When outnumbered**...I run solo...I know that pain even as a sorc main. So can we agree on a nerf zerg thread? Or nerf multiple players ganging up on one person thread?

No, zerg mechanics are a separate issue. What I'm saying is that if you get targeted by a sorc plus ANY other player you are toast. I'm fine with Wrobel doing his "raise the floor" design shenanigans, but I'm not fine with eliminating counterplay and just giving one class free kills.

bardx86

grannas211 wrote: »

The only thing overperforming is rune cage. Give us back the stun on frag and we'll be straight.

The problem was even with the stun on frags we weren't ok. Rollerblades could dodge frags all day. 1 in a out 8 frags would land, it was frustrating.

Feanor

Solariken wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I appreciate the effort but this thread is a waste of time. Everyone knows Rune Cage is stupid OP and gives zero opportunity for counterplay or survival when outnumbered.

Sorc has other issues too of course, some of which favor the class (shield stacking) and some don't (goofy mobility in some situations), but pale in comparison to the glaring Rune Cage problem.

@Solariken **When outnumbered**...I run solo...I know that pain even as a sorc main. So can we agree on a nerf zerg thread? Or nerf multiple players ganging up on one person thread?

No, zerg mechanics are a separate issue. What I'm saying is that if you get targeted by a sorc plus ANY other player you are toast. I'm fine with Wrobel doing his "raise the floor" design shenanigans, but I'm not fine with eliminating counterplay and just giving one class free kills.

Is it easier if you are targeted by a Templar who just puts PotL/Purifying Light and Eclipse on you when you are engaged already? I don’t think fighting 2 decent players is going to be easy ever - regardless of class.

usmguy1234

Feanor wrote: »

I just find it funny how few people actually earnestly posted their build and tried a constructive discussion.

@Feanor I have a method to my madness. A decent build in the right hands will kill most sorcs. So, they have to either admit they don't have the skill necessary or have a glaring, irrational hate of the class.

bardx86

Trout1996 wrote: »

How to Kill Sorc Field Guide
1. Sorc pops shields, begin counting seconds.
2. Sorc casts curse. Drink immovable or Roll dodge or Block. Add cloak here as well
3. Once you've counted to 5, CC then GG.
Sorc is fine.

Finally someone with a brain

usmguy1234

Solariken wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I appreciate the effort but this thread is a waste of time. Everyone knows Rune Cage is stupid OP and gives zero opportunity for counterplay or survival when outnumbered.

Sorc has other issues too of course, some of which favor the class (shield stacking) and some don't (goofy mobility in some situations), but pale in comparison to the glaring Rune Cage problem.

@Solariken **When outnumbered**...I run solo...I know that pain even as a sorc main. So can we agree on a nerf zerg thread? Or nerf multiple players ganging up on one person thread?

No, zerg mechanics are a separate issue. What I'm saying is that if you get targeted by a sorc plus ANY other player you are toast. I'm fine with Wrobel doing his "raise the floor" design shenanigans, but I'm not fine with eliminating counterplay and just giving one class free kills.

@Solariken So, would the sorc be able to kill you by themself? If not I don't see the issue.

bardx86

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I think one thing that comes up with sorcs, in terms of their potential for rage-generation, is how even close fights often don't feel close.

If I have a close fight with a StamDK, they are getting knocked down to 20 percent, healing up, blocking, etc. etc. constantly. Even if I lose, I "see" how close I get to winning.

With a sorc, you can constantly be taking them down to "half health" without actually seeing their healthbar move, which is very frustrating. Close fights with sorcs are basically pouring damage into a shield to no effect until they slip up and you 100-0 them in a few seconds. Just a very different feel than most open-world fights.

...rune cage is overperforming but that's kind of whatever. IMO neither rune cage nor petrify (or Time Stop for that matter) should exist in their current state. I dislike "block prevents CC, except when it doesn't" as a mechanic.

I agree, I think this has a lot to do with it. As a Sorc my health is my shield, its conditioning. If my health ever gets touched I'm doing something wrong. We are a lot closers to dying at times than you may think by looking at the health bar.

I would agree with the block prevents CC if all speed bonuses were removed while blocking. If classes can move at full speed blocking then they would never drop block and would make CC useless.

bardx86

Koolio wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

So I’ll play this game. Hopefully I do get some decent suggestions from Mag Sorc Mains.

Woodelf NB DW 2h
Truth Bone Pirate
41k Stam
4800 WD
41 Crit
2600 Inpen
3100 Stam Regen buffed
23k Health

Trying not to be a cloaking guy through the entire fight. Sorc has mines and Engine Guardian. And is of a very high experience level.

The scenario is generally like this. I’ll light attack to start a fight. Mine go down and engine Guardian is up. I have to have perfect timing on a combo(generally heavy surprise incap scourge) to make sure they are not fully shielded. Trying to land this combo is very difficult considering that have to have about 3k Shield left no CC immunity No engine Guardian up and No mines down. If almost any of these circumstances are met they will end up surviving.

They on the other hand they don’t have to worry about the majority of their combo. They sit in mines and behind engine Guardian. Even if I bash the engine it still gets 2-3 seconds of being targeted before it goes into the ground. That’s if 2-3 engine guards aren’t up or just continuously spawning back to back. They curse fury with drag in hand. Both curse and fury (at least the execute portion is undodgeable) then they meteor tune frag. Turns meteor unblockable frag undodgeable with the other two moves being unblockable and undodgeable. If I dont die then by this point I’m almost out of everything trying to survive. Then die to the second hit of curse and multiple undodgeable Endless fury executes.

If I attack to quickly then I either get Mined and stunned in them if Engine Guardian takes the full combo it starts all over.

This is pretty close to what the majority of the fight go with High end Magic Sorcs. Their combo is almost 100% undodgeable and unblockable. Mine is dodgeable blockable in melee range and hits Engine Guardian 40% of the time.


This is if they don’t stay stacking for 5 mins wasting all my resources.

@Koolio fear is your friend

Fear doesn’t kill. I can stun them all day. But In The end all damage just hits shields. If they are plebs they get destroyed. But that’s any class. I’m talking about high end Mag sorcs that are very experienced. I have a 15.5k tooltip on surprise attack. Even with great timing I’ll still end up hitting Engine. I can actually drain Stam if I use rearming to the point I can get a long CC duration.

I try not to cheese it too much on that build in particular build. Other classes I have a better time with them other than Stam Sorc.

If I get them to 50% Health shields are non stop until they are good. If I get close to 80% and make the slightest mistake it’s 15k plus Damage that I can’t block or dodge.

Mix this in with two mag sorcs and gg.

I’ve played a good bit of mag Sorc too. Ava rank like 35 or so just on my Sorc. It’s very easy compared to DW Magblade. Oh do I wish Charged enchant worked on shields.

Me personally I would say changed tune cage to cost stamina.

I think this is what OP is saying about fear. IF you get them to 50% health the next move is fear not before don't waste the CC until you have damaged them. No one is shielding while being feared. You will get another attack in before break and most likely the kill.

usmguy1234

bardx86 wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

So I’ll play this game. Hopefully I do get some decent suggestions from Mag Sorc Mains.

Woodelf NB DW 2h
Truth Bone Pirate
41k Stam
4800 WD
41 Crit
2600 Inpen
3100 Stam Regen buffed
23k Health

Trying not to be a cloaking guy through the entire fight. Sorc has mines and Engine Guardian. And is of a very high experience level.

The scenario is generally like this. I’ll light attack to start a fight. Mine go down and engine Guardian is up. I have to have perfect timing on a combo(generally heavy surprise incap scourge) to make sure they are not fully shielded. Trying to land this combo is very difficult considering that have to have about 3k Shield left no CC immunity No engine Guardian up and No mines down. If almost any of these circumstances are met they will end up surviving.

They on the other hand they don’t have to worry about the majority of their combo. They sit in mines and behind engine Guardian. Even if I bash the engine it still gets 2-3 seconds of being targeted before it goes into the ground. That’s if 2-3 engine guards aren’t up or just continuously spawning back to back. They curse fury with drag in hand. Both curse and fury (at least the execute portion is undodgeable) then they meteor tune frag. Turns meteor unblockable frag undodgeable with the other two moves being unblockable and undodgeable. If I dont die then by this point I’m almost out of everything trying to survive. Then die to the second hit of curse and multiple undodgeable Endless fury executes.

If I attack to quickly then I either get Mined and stunned in them if Engine Guardian takes the full combo it starts all over.

This is pretty close to what the majority of the fight go with High end Magic Sorcs. Their combo is almost 100% undodgeable and unblockable. Mine is dodgeable blockable in melee range and hits Engine Guardian 40% of the time.


This is if they don’t stay stacking for 5 mins wasting all my resources.

@Koolio fear is your friend

Fear doesn’t kill. I can stun them all day. But In The end all damage just hits shields. If they are plebs they get destroyed. But that’s any class. I’m talking about high end Mag sorcs that are very experienced. I have a 15.5k tooltip on surprise attack. Even with great timing I’ll still end up hitting Engine. I can actually drain Stam if I use rearming to the point I can get a long CC duration.

I try not to cheese it too much on that build in particular build. Other classes I have a better time with them other than Stam Sorc.

If I get them to 50% Health shields are non stop until they are good. If I get close to 80% and make the slightest mistake it’s 15k plus Damage that I can’t block or dodge.

Mix this in with two mag sorcs and gg.

I’ve played a good bit of mag Sorc too. Ava rank like 35 or so just on my Sorc. It’s very easy compared to DW Magblade. Oh do I wish Charged enchant worked on shields.

Me personally I would say changed tune cage to cost stamina.

I think this is what OP is say about fear. IF you get them to 50% health the next move is fear not before don't waste the CC until you have damaged them. No one is shielding while being feared. You will get another attack in before break and most likely the kill.

Exactly. CC is the enemy as I'm only rocking about 15k stam. I also think ppl underestimate the power of stam resource poisons on a mag build too.

bardx86

Galarthor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.

Sevn

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.

Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.

@Sevn Lol there is literally a meme about nerf sorc threads. I'm sure the other classes started poop throwing first and sorc mains finally said if you can't beat em might as well join em.

The thing is, I've been playing for over two years and as far as I can tell magsorcs have been powerful for a long time. Serious question, at what point were magsorcs not top tier or just under? So it just baffles me that a class so powerful for so long could complain about other classes that get to shine for a tiny fraction of the time they've been allowed to shine.

I don't have a main though I find myself using my stampler more than any other class. I'm a casual pvper but I love it though I'm terrible and I die all the time. I would not know if something is op or not and I've never ran to the forums to complain about dying to something deemed op, but I am now a convert.

I'll be using a magsorc as my main from here on out. Just got a build that will allow me to even stay on one bar and dish out almost 20k dps for my PvE needs. How easy is that? Can't beat em, join em.

DDuke

bardx86 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.

You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?


Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).

Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).


So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.


Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.


I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.

Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.

Solariken

bardx86 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.

Nobody asked for this.

We need soft counters, like Jabs versus a blocking target - you chew their stam and deal slightly more damage to the blocker than other builds would. It doesn't totally *** the person leaving them defenseless, it just mildly punishes one particular defense. You know, a soft counter.

Dodge has a lot of counters now, so that's a non-issue. Block needs more soft counters, sure, but Rune Cage is one of those mechanics that globally screws everyone and doesn't allow even the chance for the target to react.

usmguy1234

Sevn wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.

Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.

@Sevn Lol there is literally a meme about nerf sorc threads. I'm sure the other classes started poop throwing first and sorc mains finally said if you can't beat em might as well join em.

The thing is, I've been playing for over two years and as far as I can tell magsorcs have been powerful for a long time. Serious question, at what point were magsorcs not top tier or just under? So it just baffles me that a class so powerful for so long could complain about other classes that get to shine for a tiny fraction of the time they've been allowed to shine.

I don't have a main though I find myself using my stampler more than any other class. I'm a casual pvper but I love it though I'm terrible and I die all the time. I would not know if something is op or not and I've never ran to the forums to complain about dying to something deemed op, but I am now a convert.

I'll be using a magsorc as my main from here on out. Just got a build that will allow me to even stay on one bar and dish out almost 20k dps for my PvE needs. How easy is that? Can't beat em, join em.

Dude stamplar can put out some top of the line dps in pve and is a very strong counter to sorcerers. Potl>javelin>rending>jabs>>gg
Potl>dizzying>jabs>>gg

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.

You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?


Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).

Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).


So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.


Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.


I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.

Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.

1. A potion is a terrible counter?! That’s hilarious. We’ve heard for years that detect pots and cloak is an L2P issue.

2. Incap our of stealth is already undodgable pretty much unless your psychic. And if you want to make it unblockable, fear and then incap.

I’m not disagreeing with you entirely, the range needs to be cut on cage. Sorcs can always streak closer at a huge stacked cost, and accept some risk of being dog-piled on for a change.

bardx86

DDuke wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.

You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?


Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).

Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).


So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.


Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.


I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.

Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.

The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.

BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.

Sevn

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

i'd just like to nerf sorcs "aggressive complaining" in the forum's about stuff that hurts them.

Yep, I had zero problems with sorcs until I noticed it was mainly sorcs asking for nerfs of other classes seemingly because they didn't want to alter their builds.

@Sevn Lol there is literally a meme about nerf sorc threads. I'm sure the other classes started poop throwing first and sorc mains finally said if you can't beat em might as well join em.

The thing is, I've been playing for over two years and as far as I can tell magsorcs have been powerful for a long time. Serious question, at what point were magsorcs not top tier or just under? So it just baffles me that a class so powerful for so long could complain about other classes that get to shine for a tiny fraction of the time they've been allowed to shine.

I don't have a main though I find myself using my stampler more than any other class. I'm a casual pvper but I love it though I'm terrible and I die all the time. I would not know if something is op or not and I've never ran to the forums to complain about dying to something deemed op, but I am now a convert.

I'll be using a magsorc as my main from here on out. Just got a build that will allow me to even stay on one bar and dish out almost 20k dps for my PvE needs. How easy is that? Can't beat em, join em.

Dude stamplar can put out some top of the line dps in pve and is a very strong counter to sorcerers. Potl>javelin>rending>jabs>>gg
Potl>dizzying>jabs>>gg

I don't remember complaining about my stampler's performance? You also completely ignored my one and only question.

DDuke

bardx86 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.

You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?


Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).

Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).


So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.


Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.


I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.

Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.

The point was that you can't just nerf cage in a vacuum we would have to take a look at perm-block and perm-dodge. I understand that your play style doesn't abuse these (hats off) but they exist and in numbers. You bring up fear. I think that a good way to look at this. NB's already have enough damage so damage on fear is really over kill. Sorcs do not and on top of that Frags is a ranged skill and without a CC it never lands.. Question then. Would you be ok moving the damage from Cage to Frags or Curse? That would be more in line with how NB"s work.

BTW, If you look back in post when this was announced my comment was: So the fix to not having a stun on my damage is to put damage on my stun? Huh? What? Typical ZOS move.

Without Meteor Sorc combo deals the same burst damage as Incap->Relentless when comparing a high dmg low sustain Sorc build to a high dmg low sustain NB build.

With Meteor you're dealing 10k'ish more damage than Incap->Relentless.

I think you'll have to be more specific when you say sorc doesn't/didn't have enough damage.


What sorc lacks is sustained pressure; they don't have Master DWs & 3-4 bleeds to stack.

Pet sorc somewhat overcomes this, but obviously they have their issues in open world and still don't come close to the bleed DPS.


So whoever got the idea to attach 8-10k burst damage to an undodgeable/unblockable ability was out of their mind.


I'd like to see them buff alternative ways of playing sorc, makes things like Boundless Storm better, Liquid Lightning/Lightning Flood viable in PvP etc etc


Hell, they could even add a big DoT to Encase to help Sorcs vs builds that aren't vulnerable to burst rather than just giving sorcs more burst & forcing people to build tankier and tankier.

xb1LL_mr_sir_LL

mag sorc is a training wheels class. shame to see people openly discuss even having a mag sorc to log into.
if you think you're even half way decent at this game play a different class.

bardx86

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

How do people get rune to hit for 3-5k? I think rune prob hits for about 1.5-2k after mitigation. The damage on it is pretty small. Imo people are way over reacting to rune cage, and should mroe blame zos for the generally broken CC breaks. As a mag sorc and stam player this skills rarely ends things for me. I’d put a whole host of other sets and skills before rune prison on the list of this is a pain in the ass.

I agree. And the rune cage mechanic is nothinh new. Unblockable and undodgeble CC has been around forever. And there is very little difference to skills such as Fear and Petrify. Sure range their range is shorter, but the classes they belong to usually fight in melee range anyways and they got the corresponding gap closers to ensure they are both in melee and CC range (almost) 100% of the time. In addition, these CCs got secondary effects that far outweight the 1.5k to 3k damage from Rune Cage - i.e. powerful snare, roots, off-balance, AoE CC, minor maim. And those classes are just as deadly as sorcs, if not deadlier.

The nerf to CFrag was uncalled for, but revising it is not the way to go. Rune Cage finally gives magSorcs the means to fight against perma-Dodgers and perma-Blockers. And I bet the majority of people, outside of those with serious L2P issues, complaining about rune cage belong to either of those 2 groups and don't like that fights against sorcs are not as easy as they used to be, b/c you can no longer mitigate the majority of sorc damage with something you can spam indefinitely and that doesn't even require a slot on the bars.

You know what I find funny about this ZOS finally doesn't nerf block or dodge and actually buffs a class to fix the perm-dodge and perm-block issue and folks still complain. Which fix would you guys prefer better? There are plenty of counters to rune cage. Immovable pots, just like detect pots. Forward momentum just like mage light, cloak after curse land as cage is next, stun the Sorc before cage, build to survive the burst. What we are seeing is folks have been held up by over performing skills and they have never learn to play correctly. Now there are counters to them and the outcry is here.

You do realize there are plenty of people who don't abuse infinite dodge rolling or permablocking and are getting absolutely ruined by Rune Cage?


Your "counters" (apart from "build to survive the burst") really do jack against it, immovable pots for example operate on 45s cooldown & aren't even an option for many builds (e.g. most Bow builds need weapon dmg pots for Major Brutality).

Unlike sorcs, most characters also aren't in possession of a 28m unblockable/undodgeable CC they can use on a sorc 20+ meters away about to combo you, and even if they did that sorc might just be CC immune (either from Immovable pot or from your previous burst attempt at 30k+ shield stack).


So that leaves us with "build to survive the burst", which is what most people are doing right now.
I bet you're enjoying all the unkillable meta tank builds with Sload & Master DW.


Yes, there are overperforming skills (Incap for example) - but that doesn't excuse the existence of other overperforming skills.


I still find it hard to believe people actually try to defend Rune Cage.

Imagine if fear suddenly got a 8-10k tooltip or Incap became undodgeable/blockable - you'd find no serious NB player defending such a change.

1. A potion is a terrible counter?! That’s hilarious. We’ve heard for years that detect pots and cloak is an L2P issue.

2. Incap our of stealth is already undodgable pretty much unless your psychic. And if you want to make it unblockable, fear and then incap.

I’m not disagreeing with you entirely, the range needs to be cut on cage. Sorcs can always streak closer at a huge stacked cost, and accept some risk of being dog-piled on for a change.

I'm glad you picked up on that. That was my second point. We have been told for years that pots are the answer to cloak. Why is that not the answer for Cage? Lol