Calling out Sorcerer haters

Vapirko

Feanor wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I appreciate the effort but this thread is a waste of time. Everyone knows Rune Cage is stupid OP and gives zero opportunity for counterplay or survival when outnumbered.

Sorc has other issues too of course, some of which favor the class (shield stacking) and some don't (goofy mobility in some situations), but pale in comparison to the glaring Rune Cage problem.

@Solariken **When outnumbered**...I run solo...I know that pain even as a sorc main. So can we agree on a nerf zerg thread? Or nerf multiple players ganging up on one person thread?

No, zerg mechanics are a separate issue. What I'm saying is that if you get targeted by a sorc plus ANY other player you are toast. I'm fine with Wrobel doing his "raise the floor" design shenanigans, but I'm not fine with eliminating counterplay and just giving one class free kills.

Is it easier if you are targeted by a Templar who just puts PotL/Purifying Light and Eclipse on you when you are engaged already? I don’t think fighting 2 decent players is going to be easy ever - regardless of class.

Good call, if rune cage is nerfed then nerf eclipse also. That *** is brutal out numbered, the break is really wonky and there’s no counterplay. A Templar can just sit back and spam this at you and it’s gg. Oh hey would you look at that, 28m range too.

Solariken

Vapirko wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I appreciate the effort but this thread is a waste of time. Everyone knows Rune Cage is stupid OP and gives zero opportunity for counterplay or survival when outnumbered.

Sorc has other issues too of course, some of which favor the class (shield stacking) and some don't (goofy mobility in some situations), but pale in comparison to the glaring Rune Cage problem.

@Solariken **When outnumbered**...I run solo...I know that pain even as a sorc main. So can we agree on a nerf zerg thread? Or nerf multiple players ganging up on one person thread?

No, zerg mechanics are a separate issue. What I'm saying is that if you get targeted by a sorc plus ANY other player you are toast. I'm fine with Wrobel doing his "raise the floor" design shenanigans, but I'm not fine with eliminating counterplay and just giving one class free kills.

Is it easier if you are targeted by a Templar who just puts PotL/Purifying Light and Eclipse on you when you are engaged already? I don’t think fighting 2 decent players is going to be easy ever - regardless of class.

Good call, if rune cage is nerfed then nerf eclipse also. That *** is brutal out numbered, the break is really wonky and there’s no counterplay. A Templar can just sit back and spam this at you and it’s gg. Oh hey would you look at that, 28m range too.

Lol except with Eclipse you can still run, block, dodge, heal, everything. How is this even considered in the same ball park as Rune Cage?

FWIW though I hate the Eclipse design too, it should have its proc effects toned down and CC interaction removed.

Avnr

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Rune cage is all non sorc "rightly" complain about ...

I think that's fair. I've just seen about a dozen threads pop up recently with people complaining about shield stacking or general sorc op threads. Just trying to get to the bottom of it. Might just be a influx of new people due to summerset. I just don't want them to kill a class I enjoy due to inexperience. We all know Zos don't go light handed on things.

Before Summerset shield stacking was the main issue, now with rune cage way more powerful and tanky
BG dominated by sorcs , nothing new here.

My pvp exp is below average , and I'm fine with that , the only time I entered pvp with my sorc for skyshards , jumped by 4 and totally destroyed them. (pet VMA build:)) the shield stacking kept me alive for very long.

Next DLC I believe they will "balance" things (or make is worse:)

Ragnaroek93

I don't want to defend Runecage because unavoidable burst damage is always bad but at least you can build against it with Impreg for example. I think buffing the survivability of medium armor a bit would already help a lot.

Sloads, Defile and Bleeds are far worse than magsorcs are because you can't build against that at all. Resis doesn't work against Duroks and Bleeds, getting more healing is not an option because the multipliers are additive while Defile is multiplicative, you just get more red numbers than green numbers and die to mindless button smashing. That's pure ***.

Biro123

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I don't want to defend Runecage because unavoidable burst damage is always bad but at least you can build against it with Impreg for example. I think buffing the survivability of medium armor a bit would already help a lot.

Sloads, Defile and Bleeds are far worse than magsorcs are because you can't build against that at all. Resis doesn't work against Duroks and Bleeds, getting more healing is not an option because the multipliers are additive while Defile is multiplicative, you just get more red numbers than green numbers and die to mindless button smashing. That's pure ***.

There is a defence. Burst them down with cage/meteor!
Ah, what has the world come to? Choose your cheese.

Gnozo

RighteousBacon wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

I have no problem to remove the damage from rune cage. But we need an unblockable and undodable CC otherwise wont wont kill rollerblades or Builds with a lot block capacity

I’m fine with rune cage being undodgeable, however, if I’m not mistaken, besides sorc, nightblade is the only class that actually has an unblockable stun in its class skill lines. The difference is that nightblade have to be close, which involves risk.

Rune cage, on the other hand, is ranged and is especially useful when you outnumber your opponent (you little zergling sorcs, spamming rune cage and fury). Mass hysteria is especially good when the user is outnumbered (which is arguably less scummy in a way). Do you see my point?

Lastly, most classes have trouble dealing full damage to block builds, besides nightblade and sorc. But when it comes to timing sorc has more potential than nightblade. And we all know that timing is the most important dps factor when you’re fighting a block build. You have a short window to actually deal damage while their block is down. So basically, if sorcs lost there unblockable stun they’d just be more on par with the other 3 classes that don’t have one.

Also DK has an unblockable and undodgeable stun. And ofc nb and Dk CC is close range cause these classes are meant to be melee of u take a look at their class skills.

Sorc is meant to be range and we need a CC to Land our attacks cause all of them can be dodged. Okay, curse not but who dies to curse alone?

Only classes that dont have unblockable CC are warden and templar.

And to clarify, i never ever *** zerg. If u want proof: go youtube and type in "gnozo eso "

usmguy1234

Avnr wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Rune cage is all non sorc "rightly" complain about ...

I think that's fair. I've just seen about a dozen threads pop up recently with people complaining about shield stacking or general sorc op threads. Just trying to get to the bottom of it. Might just be a influx of new people due to summerset. I just don't want them to kill a class I enjoy due to inexperience. We all know Zos don't go light handed on things.

Before Summerset shield stacking was the main issue, now with rune cage way more powerful and tanky
BG dominated by sorcs , nothing new here.

My pvp exp is below average , and I'm fine with that , the only time I entered pvp with my sorc for skyshards , jumped by 4 and totally destroyed them. (pet VMA build:)) the shield stacking kept me alive for very long.

Next DLC I believe they will "balance" things (or make is worse:)

@Avnr Sounds like you ran into other pve players... hardly enough evidence to call sorc op. Play it for a month pure pvp and you'll see that they aren't nearly as strong as people pretend they are.

Ocelot9x

Stam dk
7th+bone pirate+bloddspawn
I'm not a sorc hater,I find the class perfectly balanced. It's not so easy to go on offensive while maintaining shields up,it requires skill (as it should be). Unskilled sorc are the easiest class to kill and skilled sorc are really hard to kill,as it should be.

Gnozo

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Stam dk
7th+bone pirate+bloddspawn
I'm not a sorc hater,I find the class perfectly balanced. It's not so easy to go on offensive while maintaining shields up,it requires skill (as it should be). Unskilled sorc are the easiest class to kill and skilled sorc are really hard to kill,as it should be.

Thank you

usmguy1234

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Stam dk
7th+bone pirate+bloddspawn
I'm not a sorc hater,I find the class perfectly balanced. It's not so easy to go on offensive while maintaining shields up,it requires skill (as it should be). Unskilled sorc are the easiest class to kill and skilled sorc are really hard to kill,as it should be.

@Ocelot9x Thank you for the information. I really feel for stamdks. I hope y'all get a decent class spammmable soon. I run 7th/ww hide/blood spawn on mine. Survivability is amazing but you really have to be on top of your combos to kill good players.

ak_pvp

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

Do you even understand how wings works lmao.

Things that don't work on wings: rune, pulse, fury, curse, any status effects too, so you can concuss them and basically everything but frags. So, you LA 4x and just delete the hyperexpensive wings, eating the damage for mag with your harness, or because lets be real in OW/BGs you are never alone, la 2x or less and they will drop.

If you think a sorc is useless vs wings, your probably just a useless sorc.

How do you burst a stamDK? Use rune, time ur *** for when block drops cause its so expensive, or when they go offensive, Maybe even an OL gankish build that can chew through tanks.

Vanzen

I ve switched from Stam to Mag sorc for the first time since summerset.

I do only BG.

I wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

Well ... beeing on the receiving end til then, I had a pretty idea but not to that extent ...

I can tell you that with 2h change et Rune cage, Mag sorc is so Op its not even funny.

Shackle/lich/Infernal

I sacrifice nothing

I have everything : sustain/damage/heal/triple shield/mobility/cc etc etc (I spam shield non stop and dont even go oom ...) (the combo curse/shock/wrath/cage/frag is ... well I dont even have word to describe this.)

The one that pretends that everything is just fine with sorc is either lying or a nice noob happy and delusional enough to think that he's a skilledf player wrecking everyone.

usmguy1234

Vanzen wrote: »

I ve switched from Stam to Mag sorc for the first time since summerset.

I do only BG.

I wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

Well ... beeing on the receiving end til then, I had a pretty idea but not to that extent ...

I can tell you that with 2h change et Rune cage, Mag sorc is so Op its not even funny.

Shackle/lich/Infernal

I sacrifice nothing

I have everything : sustain/damage/heal/triple shield/mobility/cc etc etc (I spam shield non stop and dont even go oom ...) (the combo curse/shock/wrath/cage/frag is ... well I dont even have word to describe this.)

The one that pretends that everything is just fine with sorc is either lying or a nice noob happy and delusional enough to think that he's a skilledf player wrecking everyone.

@Vanzen seeing that you said you just switched you are probably being grouped against other low ranked people. Keep playing and get your rank up and see how it goes.

Tonturri

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

I ve switched from Stam to Mag sorc for the first time since summerset.

I do only BG.

I wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

Well ... beeing on the receiving end til then, I had a pretty idea but not to that extent ...

I can tell you that with 2h change et Rune cage, Mag sorc is so Op its not even funny.

Shackle/lich/Infernal

I sacrifice nothing

I have everything : sustain/damage/heal/triple shield/mobility/cc etc etc (I spam shield non stop and dont even go oom ...) (the combo curse/shock/wrath/cage/frag is ... well I dont even have word to describe this.)

The one that pretends that everything is just fine with sorc is either lying or a nice noob happy and delusional enough to think that he's a skilledf player wrecking everyone.

@Vanzen seeing that you said you just switched you are probably being grouped against other low ranked people. Keep playing and get your rank up and see how it goes.

I can second this. I tried across all the classes I had - starting off, battleground quality is wonky as heck and I rarely meet anyone decent no matter what I'm playing (so most of the time they all get rekt - I had two entire teams beating on my light armor templar in one match and they seemed to be just...mostly light attacking, somehow).

bardx86

Gnozo wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Stam dk
7th+bone pirate+bloddspawn
I'm not a sorc hater,I find the class perfectly balanced. It's not so easy to go on offensive while maintaining shields up,it requires skill (as it should be). Unskilled sorc are the easiest class to kill and skilled sorc are really hard to kill,as it should be.

Thank you

No Joke, Post of the year!

Vaoh

grannas211 wrote: »

The only thing overperforming is rune cage. Give us back the stun on frag and we'll be straight.

^^^^ EXACTLY

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..

Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.

Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes

Can a mod please mute this troll for a week or two? He obviously just joined the forums to annoy other players with his l2p issues.

@Swimguy You're new to the game and you're already an expert on class & ability balance? This is exactly why the game is completely screwed, because of players LIKE THIS.

Anyone reading this comment, if you ever wonder why the game is becoming less & less balanced with its proc meta, class imbalances, please remember this post here, this is exactly why. Because Zenimax listens to players like this.

bardx86

Vaoh wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

The only thing overperforming is rune cage. Give us back the stun on frag and we'll be straight.

^^^^ EXACTLY

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..

Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.

Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes

Can a mod please mute this troll for a week or two? He obviously just joined the forums to annoy other players with his l2p issues.

@Swimguy You're new to the game and you're already an expert on class & ability balance? This is exactly why the game is completely screwed, because of players LIKE THIS.

Anyone reading this comment, if you ever wonder why the game is becoming less & less balanced with its proc meta, class imbalances, please remember this post here, this is exactly why. Because Zenimax listens to players like this.

Disagree. Frags never landed. We needed help with perm-dodgers and perm-blockers. Not sure this was the best solution but going back to just having stun on frags is also not a good solution.

DDuke

bardx86 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

The only thing overperforming is rune cage. Give us back the stun on frag and we'll be straight.

^^^^ EXACTLY

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..

Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.

Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes

Can a mod please mute this troll for a week or two? He obviously just joined the forums to annoy other players with his l2p issues.

@Swimguy You're new to the game and you're already an expert on class & ability balance? This is exactly why the game is completely screwed, because of players LIKE THIS.

Anyone reading this comment, if you ever wonder why the game is becoming less & less balanced with its proc meta, class imbalances, please remember this post here, this is exactly why. Because Zenimax listens to players like this.

Disagree. Frags never landed. We needed help with perm-dodgers and perm-blockers. Not sure this was the best solution but going back to just having stun on frags is also not a good solution.

If you couldn't connect frags that's on you (and partly on the *** infinite sustain some people are able to get for dodge rolling/blocking). There always were opportunities for frag comboing someone, for instance after/when they Ambush or a counter-burst after Incap vs stamblades.

You know, actually having some skill as a player to land it at an opportune time instead of getting maximum burst just handed to you on a silver platter.


But if you wanted a CC that ignores those defensive mechanics Rune Cage was still there, it just had an opportunity cost in that it dealt no damage and thus lowered the maximum burst (instead of increasing it).

Streak was another option for CC'ing stamina builds (here's a video of mine from 2015 for example, a duel vs a very strong sorc player who beat me more times than I beat him: https://youtu.be/fEjhVhSLKN4?t=10m53s )

I.e. it was balanced before.

Vaoh

bardx86 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

The only thing overperforming is rune cage. Give us back the stun on frag and we'll be straight.

^^^^ EXACTLY

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..

Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.

Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes

Can a mod please mute this troll for a week or two? He obviously just joined the forums to annoy other players with his l2p issues.

@Swimguy You're new to the game and you're already an expert on class & ability balance? This is exactly why the game is completely screwed, because of players LIKE THIS.

Anyone reading this comment, if you ever wonder why the game is becoming less & less balanced with its proc meta, class imbalances, please remember this post here, this is exactly why. Because Zenimax listens to players like this.

Disagree. Frags never landed. We needed help with perm-dodgers and perm-blockers. Not sure this was the best solution but going back to just having stun on frags is also not a good solution.

No, it was perfect before.

Frags landed just fine if you were careful. It’s not always supposed to land, but you were rewarded for making it land. You had to time your burst, look for openings, etc. It was skilled play on the part of the Sorc to win and allowed lots of counterplay to the opponent as there should be.

Perma-dodgers can’t dodge forever. Wait until they roll too much and will have a great loss of Stam from rolling again, then attack. If they Cloak you can Streak through them.
I have never, not once since launch, had an issue against a “perma-dodger”. You have to know how to fight your enemy. Heck, wait for the ballerina NB to stop roll dodging because they’ll inevitably gapclose -> Ult you. Block cast your burst right then to put them down. Aka.... skill mattered back then.

Permanent-blockers can’t actually block forever. If they can they will deal too little damage to care since they’re a tank anyway. You can fight these players easily by LA -> Entropy -> Repeat spam on them to rapidly drain their stam. You could also just spam Resto heavies. Eventually you can catch them. There was, again, *counterplay* for both sides.

Rune Cage ignores block. Rune Cage ignores dodge. Rune Cage ignores targets with projectile reflect.

Frags was fine. You hate both Rune Cage and Frags so really there’s no way to make you happy

OdinForge

Vaoh wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

The only thing overperforming is rune cage. Give us back the stun on frag and we'll be straight.

^^^^ EXACTLY

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..

Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.

Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes

Can a mod please mute this troll for a week or two? He obviously just joined the forums to annoy other players with his l2p issues.

@Swimguy You're new to the game and you're already an expert on class & ability balance? This is exactly why the game is completely screwed, because of players LIKE THIS.

Anyone reading this comment, if you ever wonder why the game is becoming less & less balanced with its proc meta, class imbalances, please remember this post here, this is exactly why. Because Zenimax listens to players like this.

Disagree. Frags never landed. We needed help with perm-dodgers and perm-blockers. Not sure this was the best solution but going back to just having stun on frags is also not a good solution.

No, it was perfect before.

Frags landed just fine if you were careful. It’s not always supposed to land, but you were rewarded for making it land. You had to time your burst, look for openings, etc. It was skilled play on the part of the Sorc to win and allowed lots of counterplay to the opponent as there should be.

Perma-dodgers can’t dodge forever. Wait until they roll too much and will have a great loss of Stam from rolling again, then attack. If they Cloak you can Streak through them.
I have never, not once since launch, had an issue against a “perma-dodger”. You have to know how to fight your enemy. Heck, wait for the ballerina NB to stop roll dodging because they’ll inevitably gapclose -> Ult you. Block cast your burst right then to put them down. Aka.... skill mattered back then.

Permanent-blockers can’t actually block forever. If they can they will deal too little damage to care since they’re a tank anyway. You can fight these players easily by LA -> Entropy -> Repeat spam on them to rapidly drain their stam. You could also just spam Resto heavies. Eventually you can catch them. There was, again, *counterplay* for both sides.

Rune Cage ignores block. Rune Cage ignores dodge. Rune Cage ignores targets with projectile reflect.

Frags was fine. You hate both Rune Cage and Frags so really there’s no way to make you happy

This. I never had a problem landing frags if I was just careful about it, but frags never should have been a guaranteed hit. Everyone wants a guaranteed mechanic in this game to benefit them and forgets about counter-play, even the devs apparently.

They nerfed frag damage and the stun under the guise that it did too much damage, and as a result shouldn't stun.

But in doing so created an even bigger problem by both removing what sorcs loved about the class, and also a new way to guarantee damage which is never a good idea.

Looking back at homestead frag, what was wrong with it, and why is the current system better for balance?

It isn't.

grannas211

Swimguy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..

Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.

Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes

who's man is this?

Lord-Otto

Frags need both nerfs reversed, damage and CC.


The situation used to be as follows:

If you carefully connected your frag to stun, you'd have a strong burst, as it dealt damage and stunned at the end of the burst combo, allowing for another Force Pulse. So careful timing got rewarded.

If you couldn't get the frag to land, due to a permadodger, you could forego the frag stun with Pulse follow-up and Streak or Cage through dodge to guarantee the frag hit. Basically, sacrificing burst damage to counter a playstyle. Thanks to Frag's original damage, that was enough if you pressured enough beforehand.


There was nothing wrong about that, there was an origonal design reason why it was that way. After the nerfs to Frags and the buffs to Cage, we experienced both extremes: Frags don't have enough damage to kill with an external CC (Dragon Bones), and having damage on an unavoidable CC is really frustrating (Summerset).
Just revert the nerfs, and we'll be just fine.

IZZEFlameLash

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Frags need both nerfs reversed, damage and CC.


The situation used to be as follows:

If you carefully connected your frag to stun, you'd have a strong burst, as it dealt damage and stunned at the end of the burst combo, allowing for another Force Pulse. So careful timing got rewarded.

If you couldn't get the frag to land, due to a permadodger, you could forego the frag stun with Pulse follow-up and Streak or Cage through dodge to guarantee the frag hit. Basically, sacrificing burst damage to counter a playstyle. Thanks to Frag's original damage, that was enough if you pressured enough beforehand.


There was nothing wrong about that, there was an origonal design reason why it was that way. After the nerfs to Frags and the buffs to Cage, we experienced both extremes: Frags don't have enough damage to kill with an external CC (Dragon Bones), and having damage on an unavoidable CC is really frustrating (Summerset).
Just revert the nerfs, and we'll be just fine.

It is just mindboggling that why they nerfed Frag in the first place.

Minalan

Vaoh wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

The only thing overperforming is rune cage. Give us back the stun on frag and we'll be straight.

^^^^ EXACTLY

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Swimguy wrote: »

StamDK

Shackle-Veli/trollking

magsorcs are busted as ***. 13k shields, free 100% crit resist, immune to resistant debuffs, burst heals, and heals on crit, 0 counterplay stun with 3 skills made for bursting people down that is EASY to stack and time.

there is literally NOTHING challenging about magsorc except for not responding to hate mail. If you main a magsorc thats just pathetic

Seems like a bunch of noobs have infested the forum while i've been away and a lot of long terms players quit.

How do you even lose to a sorc on a dk? Slot wings and the sorc is useless. How do sorcs even burst a stam dk?

Immune to what debuffs? What burst heal? Heal ward isn't a burst heal.

lol i do slot wings and its obv so good sorcs just hit me with 4 LAs and even then Curse hits through meteor hits through rune cage hits through endless fury hits through wings and so does the destro spammable I can refelct LA and frags...... thats it. Wings is borderline useless lmao..

Crit surge and dark deal......+sheilds make sorcs invincible just becasue im new to the game doesnt mean im bad becasue i cant kill sorcs with 13k shields every *** 2 seconds and just as much healing as stam. Its clearly OP and sorc mains just suck.

Stamdks are apparently one of the worst PvP classes right now and i dont really feel like that but I def feel slightly behind other classes

Can a mod please mute this troll for a week or two? He obviously just joined the forums to annoy other players with his l2p issues.

@Swimguy You're new to the game and you're already an expert on class & ability balance? This is exactly why the game is completely screwed, because of players LIKE THIS.

Anyone reading this comment, if you ever wonder why the game is becoming less & less balanced with its proc meta, class imbalances, please remember this post here, this is exactly why. Because Zenimax listens to players like this.

Disagree. Frags never landed. We needed help with perm-dodgers and perm-blockers. Not sure this was the best solution but going back to just having stun on frags is also not a good solution.

No, it was perfect before.

Frags landed just fine if you were careful. It’s not always supposed to land, but you were rewarded for making it land. You had to time your burst, look for openings, etc. It was skilled play on the part of the Sorc to win and allowed lots of counterplay to the opponent as there should be.

Perma-dodgers can’t dodge forever. Wait until they roll too much and will have a great loss of Stam from rolling again, then attack. If they Cloak you can Streak through them.
I have never, not once since launch, had an issue against a “perma-dodger”. You have to know how to fight your enemy. Heck, wait for the ballerina NB to stop roll dodging because they’ll inevitably gapclose -> Ult you. Block cast your burst right then to put them down. Aka.... skill mattered back then.

Permanent-blockers can’t actually block forever. If they can they will deal too little damage to care since they’re a tank anyway. You can fight these players easily by LA -> Entropy -> Repeat spam on them to rapidly drain their stam. You could also just spam Resto heavies. Eventually you can catch them. There was, again, *counterplay* for both sides.

Rune Cage ignores block. Rune Cage ignores dodge. Rune Cage ignores targets with projectile reflect.

Frags was fine. You hate both Rune Cage and Frags so really there’s no way to make you happy

I love frags, I love it more than cage. But the fact is, without empower - the good times on frags aren’t coming back.

10% damage nerf (**** ZOS)
20% damage loss on empower
Shadow mundus nerf (%@#&$! Anyone else remember how awesome this was?)
Loss of the stun.

Put the stun back and you’re hitting people with an 8K stun that’s blockable, dodgeable, and reflectable. Yay.. That’s going to leave us in a heap of garbage as a class. The days of 16K frags that stun (and I loved every single one of them that landed) are gone, they aren’t coming back.

So I’ll take Cage. I don’t like it, but it works.

Lord-Otto

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Frags need both nerfs reversed, damage and CC.


The situation used to be as follows:

If you carefully connected your frag to stun, you'd have a strong burst, as it dealt damage and stunned at the end of the burst combo, allowing for another Force Pulse. So careful timing got rewarded.

If you couldn't get the frag to land, due to a permadodger, you could forego the frag stun with Pulse follow-up and Streak or Cage through dodge to guarantee the frag hit. Basically, sacrificing burst damage to counter a playstyle. Thanks to Frag's original damage, that was enough if you pressured enough beforehand.


There was nothing wrong about that, there was an origonal design reason why it was that way. After the nerfs to Frags and the buffs to Cage, we experienced both extremes: Frags don't have enough damage to kill with an external CC (Dragon Bones), and having damage on an unavoidable CC is really frustrating (Summerset).
Just revert the nerfs, and we'll be just fine.

It is just mindboggling that why they nerfed Frag in the first place.

Same reason they wrecked DW sorcs, really. Big boi Wrobel has a fancy idea (Undaunted should be about synergies, non-NB skills should have no more than two effects), and he simply pushes it through with his lack of gameplay knowledge and refusal to get counsel from people who have. And then his false pride prevents us from having bad changes reverted.

CyrusArya

OdinForge wrote: »

Looking back at homestead frag, what was wrong with it, and why is the current system better for balance?

It isn't.

Looking back, homestead was the last patch that was truly great in regards to gameplay. Even tho I like the morrowind sustain changes, putting an emphasis on heavy attacks rather than champion points, that’s where it should have ended. Champion point readjustment and done. Instead they went nerf happy and sucked the soul out of both the classes I main, stamplar and mag sorc and I’m sure other classes feel the same way. I realize in this moment that homestead was the watershed moment. Game has been straight downhill since then, with bummerset bringing us to the most uninspiring low point of the game I can personally recollect.

Lord-Otto

Ah, yes. Homestead. A damage set, a sustain set, a monster proc set in PvP. Full light attack rotation in PvE, Frags and Fury in a pet build.
Good times.
=')

Feanor

The reality is people will complain about Sorcs as long as there is 1 Sorc ability on the death recap. In my opinion Sorcs were lacking a lot in noCP pre Summerset. But people still complained. It goes right back to players hopping on the class, killing bad players easily with it, and confusing this with the class being OP.

Just look like @Vanzen posting above. The 2H change did nothing at all if you are running Shackle/Lich/Monsterset because you could always back bar Lich. Yet we have statements like “OMG I have everything and don’t have to sacrifice”. I wouldn’t say a setup that involves 2 sustain sets doesn’t sacrifice...

Sorc’s dilemma is being great at killing potatoes.

Vanzen

Feanor wrote: »

The reality is people will complain about Sorcs as long as there is 1 Sorc ability on the death recap. In my opinion Sorcs were lacking a lot in noCP pre Summerset. But people still complained. It goes right back to players hopping on the class, killing bad players easily with it, and confusing this with the class being OP.

Just look like @Vanzen posting above. The 2H change did nothing at all if you are running Shackle/Lich/Monsterset because you could always back bar Lich. Yet we have statements like “OMG I have everything and don’t have to sacrifice”. I wouldn’t say a setup that involves 2 sustain sets doesn’t sacrifice...

Sorc’s dilemma is being great at killing potatoes.

I will fine tune my opinion ...

If you consider the ratio skill/performance, the Sorc class is way above any other class.

Way way above.

You dont need an once of skill to do OK, (I said OK ...) with a sorc.

But with superior skills, I think that DK will outshine everyone, reason why DK has been nerfed over and over.

Feanor

Vanzen wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The reality is people will complain about Sorcs as long as there is 1 Sorc ability on the death recap. In my opinion Sorcs were lacking a lot in noCP pre Summerset. But people still complained. It goes right back to players hopping on the class, killing bad players easily with it, and confusing this with the class being OP.

Just look like @Vanzen posting above. The 2H change did nothing at all if you are running Shackle/Lich/Monsterset because you could always back bar Lich. Yet we have statements like “OMG I have everything and don’t have to sacrifice”. I wouldn’t say a setup that involves 2 sustain sets doesn’t sacrifice...

Sorc’s dilemma is being great at killing potatoes.

I will fine tune my opinion ...

If you consider the ratio skill/performance, the Sorc class is way above any other class.

Way way above.

You dont need an once of skill to do OK, (I said OK ...) with a sorc.

But with superior skills, I think that DK will outshine everyone, reason why DK has been nerfed over and over.

What exactly is doing OK though? Who measures what’s OK and what’s subpar? And what’s an ounce of skill? Skill is a very relative thing. Is it skill to be a good theorycrafter and create builds that are overpowered while being a subpar player? I’d say yes. Is it skill to slap on green random dropped gear and still beat players? Of course.

I do not say that playing a Sorc is exactly hard. It is a very beginner friendly, forgiving class. But you have to see as well that this low floor comes with a low ceiling as well. A good player will be able to do everything better on any other class than a Sorc.

If you face bad players exclusively you can very well think that Sorc is OP as they don’t have a clue how to get through the shields. This changes quickly once you encounter players who know what they do. And it’s completely absurd once you throw in oblivion damage and proc sets.

Furthermore, Sorc is based on a CP enabled play style. NoCP is considerably harder on Sorc (excluding BGs, they are a different thing altogether). There are a lot of things that kill a Sorc easily if you don’t have available LoS. One of the most annoying: A magBlade coming out of stealth with a Zaan and Sloads proc on top of Incap. There is so much *** in the game now that a mighty 12k shield stack of Hardened and Healing Ward saves you for one second while you have damage ticking beneath the shield.

So no, the ratio of skill/performance isn’t good on a Sorc. It is only if the skill of your opponents is below decent.