[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - June 7

Mojomonkeyman

Checkmath wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
I think the priority that you guys should understand is that the topics discussed should be taken with a grain of salt.

Overall you already have a very good game. The ability to differentiate between what is possible and what is excessive whining is key here.

If it becomes a situation where the development team tries to massively overhaul something and brakes many things in the process the turn out will inevitably be worse.

It would be better served to focus on upgrading or enhancing the ability/process to do testing and bug fixes around potential new implementations and in a faster and more efficient manner.

Decrease your batch processing size making it a single flow, so you can do patching more often regarding enhancements without the high risk of breaking things.

Let these discussions serve as strategic talking points for potential areas of investigation for improvement, rather than an outcry for change for change sake.

glhf,
-Kai

the feedback we gave the devs already was filtered by us reps, thats why we should have a deep understanding of the classes and skills. we already separated whining and constructive feedback. you might think that stuff like a nerf to incap or rune cage bases on the whining of all non sorcs or non nightblades, but this isnt the case. we got the same feedback even from experienced nightblades and sorcs that those two skills for example are overtuned.

the devs already know, that huge changes should not be the way to go, they wont change everything, what we discussed during the meeting. they will implement some changes and will hopefully do that every time we meet. soon the pts for the next update will be available and another rep meeting is coming during that pts circle, so already feedback from the pts will be gathered and discussed. this already is an improvement to the procedure and will hopefully result in better communication between community, reps and devs.

So how is the procedure exactly on your part? I mean, officially it is "pain points" only being discussed, widely understood as clunky gameplay mechanics being improved by incorporating and filtering swarm intelligence. But in reality you also touch balancing issues, in fact those are the most discussed and mentioned issues across pretty much all public "pain point threads". Most are pure "buff my class" threads and people mentioning negative painpoints (example: rune cage in sorcerer thread) being borderline insulted for ruining sorcerers chances of getting what they want.

I am a little confused here, I can see that gathering mass input for clunky gameplay mechanics can make it easier to prioritize according to popular demand. Balance on the other hand, balance never was and never will be a democrazy thingy. It basically exists only at levels where the least number of mistakes is being made, how is gathering mass input here going to improve anything?

By you experienced guys filtering it and basically eliminating the 90% flawed input based on flawed play? There is no satifying answer to that, because this stunt is conceptualized as a PR-everybody-is-involved-thing. But improving the game balancing wise (not gameplay mechanics) would require very selective feedback, rendering the effort of 90% of the people participating moot.

I don't get where you (or ZOS) will draw the line after making this a thing for everyone to participate in - even the light-attack-only guys. And on the other hand, there is not enough quality in the rep lineup to rep all classes balance concerns equally (example: PvP Magwarden, you can count the quality ones on one hand on PC EU, none being rep) to even filter properly, no offense.

I am honestly wondering:
1) What is your mission (gameplay "pain points" versus balance - both demand entirely different approaches)?
2a) If pain points only: since almost only balance suggestions are being provided on the relevant threads, are you going to ignore these and forward filtered pain points only?
2b) If pain points and balance: Are you free to ignore whatever feedback on balance you deem unqualified (good) or will you summarize everything based on popular demand and forward to ZOS (bad)?

President_PUG

Tasear wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Ramber wrote: »

Was fixing the lag issues even talked about?
I am sorry to hear that. If you share more data or links to the threads then we can note concern better for you.

Funny You should ask that question I was looking for a REASONABLE place to insert The Material You are asking for.
It' lot info compressed in a few paragraphs, I hope it makes sense.
Last year Steam recorded 75k complaints a day.
The company responds to accusations of slow customer service by pointing out it's not just you.

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
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My Personal Curious search for a Technical Reason for the Snafu.
List of Possible reasons YOU experience lag or CANNOT LOG INTO ESO GAME.
^#1The player's fault. Nope, All N/A players were affected.
#2Steam. Steam is only the operator that connects your call to ESO and validate what content you should be able to allowed to use.
Once considered the way to stop pirating, The Middle Man (STEAM) Just Tells ESO you are Who you say You are.
#3MEGASERVERS The Ghost in The Soul of a Ghost, talking to Other Ghosts. That may or May not but you in the same instance as Your group. Every get the feeling I'm here, but where exactly is Here, and where is My group?
This is actually a very cool feature unique to ESO (MEGASERVER)and not some fly-by-night MMO's. I have to say It works as Advertised, some Complaints In PvP areas, but that's been an issue long before mega servers. Mega servers are an attempt to get Massive amounts people together on One World to Instantly try to make everyone else leave. One of the first attempts to stop MMOPRG Nightmare The EMPTY WORLD!
That was supposed to be the Selling point. The point so many Pople love PvP, but It's become the Chokepoint for Lots information In and Out. The best solution, Help The Devs with considerate useful feedback and don't Threaten to take your money to somewhere else, The Devs need Encouragement to work all Those Unpaid overtime Hours so you can enjoy your experience, after all, He/She doesn't get paid unless someone is actually ONLINE PLAYING THE GAME! Telling The Dev its Crap is not helping Him/Her identify Your particular Crap this time. Is it The same old, same old crap? or is it New Crap now? Be clear this affects which fix needs Fixing.
#4Recent Updates to the game are Unstable. The one update I found that might affect this is The "MULTI-CORE UPDATE. Is it stable yet? Said Earlier Works as advertised, stay tuned.
#5ESO servers lack the ability to handle so many players at the same time. Here is where it starts getting interesting.
Before I could actually trace the problem from My house to Steam to ESO servers, I found out something no one has mentioned yet.
ESO North American server is located in Baltimore, Maryland. Public Knowledge. What's the big deal?
On the days That ESO lost the ability to give access authority to Players, Baltimore reported Comcast lost all internet service.
If you think ESO community forums are Harsh, I feel bad for The Comcast Person answering That phone.
There is a Communication problem with The Service Provider, and This is Just Me, not a professional Person, ESO might not even be Using Comcast. But if they are, you might feel less hostile toward ESO and Steam, now knowing they could not reach You cause They didn't have service in Baltimore Maryland at the Time. This information probably only entertaining and informative to Me. Better than placing blame and being wrong.

Final thoughts?
There is a lot of information online and most problems while being frustrating, are Generally just that FRUSTRATING.
The ONE Thing That actually causes More Harm than any other possible Thing you could do?
Pointing fingers and Trying to second Guess, make false statements that None of The Game Makers and Providers care You cant play the Game.
Hello! That's HOW They Make MONEY is when You are actually playing the Game. What good would It do for them to ignore you?
Your Public shaming them is retaliation and unfounded. But Take Good Cheer every Forum I visited had Your Clone There also too, so IT's Not Just YOU!
Is there a fix? Some said Game Coding is at Fault, THE ESO Game Code is POTATOE! Some Said Going somewhere else is Their choice.
Guess what? Game Code fix probably already outsourced and in current development. We will get back to you when We catch up to The Future.
In other words, We used what was available to Us at the time. What you are using was not around then.
If We shift what We are Using now, it would still be behind the Hardware and Software Technology say around 5-10 years?
You cant make a Dual- OctiCoreMega Computer game if a Dual-OctiCoreMega Computer doesn't exist.
When you find a Computer Application that works and is Stable, keep it. Not only is it Cheaper savings for all, its Safe, You try and put Code based on Single Core into Game and Make it Multi-Core, Game is still only gonna work when it talks to ONE CORE AT A TIME. That's a subject for another day.
Remember My example, It's more fun to learn about the system when it's not working, then sit around and complain till it is working again.
Steam said, "... to accusations of slow customer service by pointing out it's not just you."

If this is an inappropriate place to put this information, instead of deleting it can you notify Me, and allow its moval to a more relevant category?
Keep Up The Good work, RNGESUS is watching over You!

Checkmath

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
I think the priority that you guys should understand is that the topics discussed should be taken with a grain of salt.

Overall you already have a very good game. The ability to differentiate between what is possible and what is excessive whining is key here.

If it becomes a situation where the development team tries to massively overhaul something and brakes many things in the process the turn out will inevitably be worse.

It would be better served to focus on upgrading or enhancing the ability/process to do testing and bug fixes around potential new implementations and in a faster and more efficient manner.

Decrease your batch processing size making it a single flow, so you can do patching more often regarding enhancements without the high risk of breaking things.

Let these discussions serve as strategic talking points for potential areas of investigation for improvement, rather than an outcry for change for change sake.

glhf,
-Kai

the feedback we gave the devs already was filtered by us reps, thats why we should have a deep understanding of the classes and skills. we already separated whining and constructive feedback. you might think that stuff like a nerf to incap or rune cage bases on the whining of all non sorcs or non nightblades, but this isnt the case. we got the same feedback even from experienced nightblades and sorcs that those two skills for example are overtuned.

the devs already know, that huge changes should not be the way to go, they wont change everything, what we discussed during the meeting. they will implement some changes and will hopefully do that every time we meet. soon the pts for the next update will be available and another rep meeting is coming during that pts circle, so already feedback from the pts will be gathered and discussed. this already is an improvement to the procedure and will hopefully result in better communication between community, reps and devs.

So how is the procedure exactly on your part? I mean, officially it is "pain points" only being discussed, widely understood as clunky gameplay mechanics being improved by incorporating and filtering swarm intelligence. But in reality you also touch balancing issues, in fact those are the most discussed and mentioned issues across pretty much all public "pain point threads". Most are pure "buff my class" threads and people mentioning negative painpoints (example: rune cage in sorcerer thread) being borderline insulted for ruining sorcerers chances of getting what they want.

I am a little confused here, I can see that gathering mass input for clunky gameplay mechanics can make it easier to prioritize according to popular demand. Balance on the other hand, balance never was and never will be a democrazy thingy. It basically exists only at levels where the least number of mistakes is being made, how is gathering mass input here going to improve anything?

By you experienced guys filtering it and basically eliminating the 90% flawed input based on flawed play? There is no satifying answer to that, because this stunt is conceptualized as a PR-everybody-is-involved-thing. But improving the game balancing wise (not gameplay mechanics) would require very selective feedback, rendering the effort of 90% of the people participating moot.

I don't get where you (or ZOS) will draw the line after making this a thing for everyone to participate in - even the light-attack-only guys. And on the other hand, there is not enough quality in the rep lineup to rep all classes balance concerns equally (example: PvP Magwarden, you can count the quality ones on one hand on PC EU, none being rep) to even filter properly, no offense.

I am honestly wondering:
1) What is your mission (gameplay "pain points" versus balance - both demand entirely different approaches)?
2a) If pain points only: since almost only balance suggestions are being provided on the relevant threads, are you going to ignore these and forward filtered pain points only?
2b) If pain points and balance: Are you free to ignore whatever feedback on balance you deem unqualified (good) or will you summarize everything based on popular demand and forward to ZOS (bad)?

to put it rather simply: pain points maybe are the wrong word, since you may understand clunky mechanics, while others understand under pain point the worst part of a class.
therefore after your definition, we gather feedback about both, pain points and balance issues.
to answer the question in 2b, the feedback we get are mostly quantitative and less qualitative. we are chosen, since we have a lot of knowledge about this game, therefore we can separate quality from quantity. what we in the end give to ZoS is feedback, which includes both quality and quantity. for an example lets take rune cage: atm a lot of people complain about it and state it to be OP. thats quantity. but we also got a lot of feedback regarding rune cage from experienced sorcerer players, which say, that it is strong and makes sorcerer to play boring and unattractive, since the gamestyle merged to one thing in pvp: an unavoidable combo of meteors, curses, frags and executes landing at the same time and finish off most enemies. those experienced sorcerers themselves dont want to play such generic cookie cutter stuff. so basically thats then the quality feedback. if we get both, we acknowledge it and will give it to the devs.

Mojomonkeyman

Checkmath wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
I think the priority that you guys should understand is that the topics discussed should be taken with a grain of salt.

Overall you already have a very good game. The ability to differentiate between what is possible and what is excessive whining is key here.

If it becomes a situation where the development team tries to massively overhaul something and brakes many things in the process the turn out will inevitably be worse.

It would be better served to focus on upgrading or enhancing the ability/process to do testing and bug fixes around potential new implementations and in a faster and more efficient manner.

Decrease your batch processing size making it a single flow, so you can do patching more often regarding enhancements without the high risk of breaking things.

Let these discussions serve as strategic talking points for potential areas of investigation for improvement, rather than an outcry for change for change sake.

glhf,
-Kai

the feedback we gave the devs already was filtered by us reps, thats why we should have a deep understanding of the classes and skills. we already separated whining and constructive feedback. you might think that stuff like a nerf to incap or rune cage bases on the whining of all non sorcs or non nightblades, but this isnt the case. we got the same feedback even from experienced nightblades and sorcs that those two skills for example are overtuned.

the devs already know, that huge changes should not be the way to go, they wont change everything, what we discussed during the meeting. they will implement some changes and will hopefully do that every time we meet. soon the pts for the next update will be available and another rep meeting is coming during that pts circle, so already feedback from the pts will be gathered and discussed. this already is an improvement to the procedure and will hopefully result in better communication between community, reps and devs.

So how is the procedure exactly on your part? I mean, officially it is "pain points" only being discussed, widely understood as clunky gameplay mechanics being improved by incorporating and filtering swarm intelligence. But in reality you also touch balancing issues, in fact those are the most discussed and mentioned issues across pretty much all public "pain point threads". Most are pure "buff my class" threads and people mentioning negative painpoints (example: rune cage in sorcerer thread) being borderline insulted for ruining sorcerers chances of getting what they want.

I am a little confused here, I can see that gathering mass input for clunky gameplay mechanics can make it easier to prioritize according to popular demand. Balance on the other hand, balance never was and never will be a democrazy thingy. It basically exists only at levels where the least number of mistakes is being made, how is gathering mass input here going to improve anything?

By you experienced guys filtering it and basically eliminating the 90% flawed input based on flawed play? There is no satifying answer to that, because this stunt is conceptualized as a PR-everybody-is-involved-thing. But improving the game balancing wise (not gameplay mechanics) would require very selective feedback, rendering the effort of 90% of the people participating moot.

I don't get where you (or ZOS) will draw the line after making this a thing for everyone to participate in - even the light-attack-only guys. And on the other hand, there is not enough quality in the rep lineup to rep all classes balance concerns equally (example: PvP Magwarden, you can count the quality ones on one hand on PC EU, none being rep) to even filter properly, no offense.

I am honestly wondering:
1) What is your mission (gameplay "pain points" versus balance - both demand entirely different approaches)?
2a) If pain points only: since almost only balance suggestions are being provided on the relevant threads, are you going to ignore these and forward filtered pain points only?
2b) If pain points and balance: Are you free to ignore whatever feedback on balance you deem unqualified (good) or will you summarize everything based on popular demand and forward to ZOS (bad)?

to put it rather simply: pain points maybe are the wrong word, since you may understand clunky mechanics, while others understand under pain point the worst part of a class.
therefore after your definition, we gather feedback about both, pain points and balance issues.
to answer the question in 2b, the feedback we get are mostly quantitative and less qualitative. we are chosen, since we have a lot of knowledge about this game, therefore we can separate quality from quantity. what we in the end give to ZoS is feedback, which includes both quality and quantity. for an example lets take rune cage: atm a lot of people complain about it and state it to be OP. thats quantity. but we also got a lot of feedback regarding rune cage from experienced sorcerer players, which say, that it is strong and makes sorcerer to play boring and unattractive, since the gamestyle merged to one thing in pvp: an unavoidable combo of meteors, curses, frags and executes landing at the same time and finish off most enemies. those experienced sorcerers themselves dont want to play such generic cookie cutter stuff. so basically thats then the quality feedback. if we get both, we acknowledge it and will give it to the devs.

Thanks for the feedback! Answered my questions.

Xsorus

I was laughing at the whole let’s remove crit from cp to nerf heavy even more.

tunepunk

Yo solve problem with hitboxes, some skills could be ground target instead of enemy target. Some skills I think could work well with ground target instead. Especiallty: Dragon leap, explosive charge, since they are esentially ranged aoe.

"Hit Boxes/lack or reliable means of targeting. Hit boxes are big, this is nice for DPS, but makes it really hard for tanks to taunt/target dangerous adds" - Some ground based/ranged taunt would be good?

"Devour synergy requires precise targeting and direct line of sight without other characters in the way, making it clunky and unwieldy to use in fights". Another case of something that could be ground based target?

"Sweeps channel is long, doesn’t make some DPS rotations, hard to hit targets in PVP."
The channel is not the problem. Slightly less AOE damage, more damage to main target. Templar already have plenty of AOE.

BohnT

well guess it's another 3 months without stamdk

Finedaible

This is literally everything they have already said before.

AlexHound

I really hope, that they will work on it. I'm afraid that it's gonna stay only on paper.
But really happy that devs started a big and nice work to improve a lot.

LapisLazuli99

I just want to say I appreciate seeing that the reps are very genuine in fairness and improving the experience rather than blindly "buff this nerf this" like a lot of the community is.

Koolio

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Below you'll find the topic points we discussed with the Class Reps during our meeting yesterday. The main goal was to have them to present the biggest pain points and concerns for each class, which we'll be digesting and taking into consideration for any future changes. This is not a list of everything that will be changing, and may not include every piece of feedback that was received. Again, they were asked only to focus on the biggest pain points from the community at large.

Dragonknights

• Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
• Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
• PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
• Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff.
• Several concerns were brought up for Magicka DK:
  • Power Lash misses a lot
  • Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE.
  • Sustain needs help
  • Not wanted for melee DPS
• Key abilities like Flame Lash, Burning Breath and Burning embers feel clunky to use (different ranges, cone not hitting hit boxes, et al)

Nightblades

• The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground.
• Obvious/bad morph choices that limit diversity. Debilitate, Power Extraction, and Manifestation of Terror for example. Also, some morphs have good ideas but need a bit more. Dark Cloak is a good heal, but minor protection buff is too short for example
• Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.
• Some Nightblades have indicated some non-cloak defense options would help when they do get marked or detect potted.
• Nightblades dominate as DPS, but underperform as tanks pigeonhole them and limit diversity
  • The “sap” tank playstyle, for instance, is no longer possible
• Some players would rather have Agony back than Malevolent Offering.

Sorcerers

• Mobile themed class doesn’t feel mobile. Bolt Escape “whiplash” effect, losing momentum especially up/down hills. Very susceptible to snares/roots. Class should be able to kite better
• Pets in PvP. Hard to control/die/have a mind of their own. Steals buffs from players. Paradox in a way, because in duels a “zookeeper” Sorcerer is a nightmare to fight (especially now they can cast them while CC immune). The more chaotic PvP gets, pets quickly lose their usefulness.
• The post Crystal Frag version has lost a lot of what was once a defining feature. Sorcerer now feel formulaic and boring, especially now that dual wield isn’t really a thing. Destro Reach sorcerers are cookie-cutter and require specific reward weapon, rune cage auto stun while meteor drops feels cheap and is certainly unsatisfying for the target.
• Stamina based sorcerers are unhappy they don’t feel much they get much out of the class as Hurricane is the only damage ability they used.
  • The idea of a stamina Air Atronach morph (ala Ra Kotu from Hel Ra) was mentioned by several people.
  • Also a number of sorcerer passives don’t help the Stamina sorcerer
• Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS
  • Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”
  • Yes and no. Sorcerer has good abilities, but must slot them to play well. For example, Sorcerer and Nightblade both have +8 % magicka boosts, sorcerer needs to slot a skill that does no damage, the Nightblade does not. Also Pets take up dead bar spots
• Masel’s chart has 46% of concern pet-oriented. Aside from boss fights that preclude pets (like Mage in AA), the Twilight tormentor morph was seen as particularly weak and the Clannfear too expensive for taking up two skills and dies to mechanics.

Templars

• Offensive skills are too awkward/impractical/just not very good. Solar Barrage cast time ruins flows of nice DPS rotation. Radiant Destruction execute is a DPS loss. Sweeps channel is long, doesn’t make some DPS rotations, hard to hit targets in PVP.
• Poor stamina management. Makes tanking hard. Makes a long DPS rotation against bosses unsustainable.
  • Repentance needs actual corpses and an enemy not to repent them first. Causes arguments with allies in Teamspeak who gets to use the skill.
• Rune Focus and more generally the “House.” Having to cast and recast an armor buff that doesn’t actually do anything exciting every 8 seconds is frustrating. “House” is too hard to manage because mechanics in PvP and PvE compel movement and healing nerfs make “stand your ground” unmanageable.
• Radial Sweep ultimate. Both morphs. Just not very good. Range is too short, damage is too low, often misses, other non-class ultimates are better/more versatile.
• Only class without a pro-active/preventative defense (no more blinding flashes, no reflect, no non-health scaling shields, etc.) has led to PvP archetype nobody like: the “Healbot” who holds block with sword and shield and hits Breath of Life
• Templar CC is seen as lacking and no AoE root make tanking hard and slow class feel slower
  • Shards not CCing still a sore spot
  • Eclipse CCs enemies without CCing them; ability can sometimes feel worthless vs experienced players
• There is a feeling that a lot of Templar passives are situational, restrictive, or weak.

Wardens

• The Bear. People like it. People are frustrated with how the Warden (good) DPS is so tied to it that when the Bear dies/can’t be controlled/takes up an AoE ultimate option, they feel let down by it. Bear getting CCed a lot was brought up several times.
  • Console players say it’s hard to control because they have to use heavy attacks
• No class-unique form of CC. Players don’t just want a generic stun ala Destro staff, but something awesome that comes from playing a Warden
• As a DPS, Wardens don’t really offer something unique or interesting to a group. So, if their DPS isn’t top notch, there isn’t really a reason to have them in that role.
• The desire to be an Ice-themed DPS was something that got a lot of mention.
• Players feel that the class has so many buff skills that come at the detriment of good combat options (such as an Ice DoT).
  • Coupled with damage skills that don’t offer Wardens tactical options make playing the class stale and hard in PvP (For example Dive [both morphs] just does damage and Growing Swarm morph seen as weak).
• Warden players feel as though some obvious needs have been neglected (non-Bear Magicka DPS, the lack of class CC).

Tanks

• Dragonknights are great tanks, but some tank players feel “forced” to play them rather than say a Warden tank because the Engulfing Flames buff is deemed necessary
  • Wrobel Question: “Why can’t a DK DPS provide this?
  • They can, but magicka DPS is seen as undesirable because this means taking a spot away from a stamina NB, which offers so much more.
  • It’s not an easy problem to solve as we would *like* classes to offer unique things to groups. This issue is when only the DK tanks offers something awesome and none of the other 4 classes offer some alternative awesome thing.
• The Hardened Armor morph is undesirable as the little shield is gone almost immediately after activation.
• Tanks want to aid the group, but the current mechanics of group buffs 1) limit to only 6 players and 2) continue to only hit the same 6 players upon further activations (it’s the old purge bug)
  • My PvP group tested this just last night. A DK igneous weapon only ever hits 6 people in our group and it’s always the same 6 players. Upon this realization, our DK immediately unslotted Igneous Weapons.
• Hit Boxes/lack or reliable means of targeting. Hit boxes are big, this is nice for DPS, but makes it really hard for tanks to taunt/target dangerous adds. The Asylum Sanctorium Saint Llothis for example hides behind a huge Dragon and even if it’s tab-targeted, he’s hard to taunt and interrupt.
• Lack of Gear Diversity. The Ebon / Alkosh combination is still seen as better than anything offered since.
• Templar and Nightblades stamina management

Healers

• Often don’t feel needed. Tank + 3 DPS is seen as more efficient and higher scoring.
• A lot of new Healer toys/mechanics just offer heals, but healers also want to buff their group. For example, the new Cinderstrom Dragonknight morph offers a nice heal, but the skill is really expensive, the area is really small, and doesn’t offer anything to allies except heals that might not even be needed.
• DPS dominates gameplay and when players have enough of it to skip mechanics, healers do not feel part of the team. Relegated to side-kicks
• Healers would like some class identity. People trust templars because they bring something recognizable to raid. What does a sorcerer bring?
• The Force Siphon (both morphs) is seen as “wrong” because everything it provides can be acquired elsewhere more efficiently
  • The double resto staff healer for example is viewed with suspicion
• PvP line of sight checks are too punishing. Small boxes and branches act as impenetrable walls.

Non-class/role related issues

• Defile is very strong.
  • Defile is necessary but it’s very accessible and too easily applied and reapplied:
  • Wrobel Question: Can this be countered by Healing stars in Champion system?
  • It’s hard. Befoul scales a lot better. Befoul in Green tree means players can damage and defile at same time..
  • We talked that it was fine for a player to spec specifically for defile and being strong/effective, but it’s too easy to be an effective defiler without really trying.
  • Unhealthy consequence: players a re forced to build tanky and inexperienced player get deleted.
• More synergies. It was mentioned that there was no need to bring a magicka sorcerer into a competitive raid environment *except* the Conduit synergy. So, more synergies mean more reasons to use perceived non-meta classes. Nightblades, for instance, don’t offer a synergy. It’s not a big deal now because they are DPS meta, but a NB healer is out of luck. Also, before this patch DKs felt unwanted in PvP raids. Now, with the synergy change, DKs feel they make legit contributions with all the synergies they offer. It’s a win-win.
• Some synergies are too finicky. The Trapping Webs synergy from undaunted requires a range and angle that is so narrow it‘s too hard to activate it. Nova, an ultimate that players already feel is too expensive and overshadowed by Warhorn needs to have it’s synergy activated and players can’t do this without moving to the absolute center.
• Sload’s set. On its own and in isolation it’s not too bad. Coupled with things like a defile Set, a Zaan Proc, and a no CP environment it’s too much. Also, this set raises the overall toxicity in PvP because of its perception which I’d argue is a bigger concern than balance (seriously, I average 1 hate tell every 3-4 MONTHS. I got 4 in a single night just using this set).
• Content for anything between 4 and 12 players is desired by many, because 12 is hard to organize and 4 is too little for many groups of friends, would also bring new group compositions.
• Heavy armor still seen as more desirable for PvP, especially for stamina builds. The idea of moving the critical hit passive from the Champion tree to the Light and Medium armor skills was floated around.
• If you are a “stamina” player, there is little distinction between the classes as weapon abilities are predominate. Only the Nightblade feels like a fluid from a stamina perspective. We mused about how some lesser used abilities like the DK Obsidian Shard could be used to help create more of a unique stamina class identity.
• Mobility came up as pain points for three classes (sorcerers, DKs, Templars) and are seen as particularly punishing vs. magicka
  • This perhaps is less an issue with classes as the snare system needs reform
  • Wrobel question: “Does the new Psijic Skills help?”
  • They do, but it’s still a pain point for several reasons
    • Major expedition does not remove snares like Shuffle/Forward Momentum or Mist Form.
    • The Channeled Acceleration has a cast-time (bashable, you’re slower at the time you want most to be faster). The Race Against Time Morph duration is really short.
    • Mist Form is still a lot better because nothing can stop a player from going to point A to point B and gets 75% mitigation to boot.
• More Group oriented passives: They are something that gives what many players want, identity to their class and the feeling they are offering something useful to their group/team.

The following was not discussed during the meeting as we ran out of time, but notes were forwarded to the Dev Team afterwards:

Werewolves

• What werewolves DO NOT want
  • To become overpowered. They realize they teeter on the line.
  • To get the best dps or to become meta, or even to get directly competitive dps. They don’t want a werewolf in every group. Werewolves like feeling special and needing to exert greater effort to achieve the same or even just shy of the same results in PvE.
  • Large, sweeping reworks or changes to core mechanics.
  • For Hircine’s Bounty to scale off of stamina/weapon damage OR to cost stamina. To make it cost stamina would pressure their sustain too much. Stam sustain is already tough on werewolves. And to make it scale off of physical stats would eliminate the hybrid leaning of werewolf builds, turning werewolf build patterns into a mirror of the rest of the stamina meta and requiring damage nerfs to compensate the new builds. For example, Pelinal’s + Fury + 2 Kena (a common build and Caius’ current favorite) would become Fury + Seventh Legion + 2 Kena. Werewolves like their hybridy build patterns the way they are. Do you want to fight a werewolf with 1k more weapon damage than they already have?
• What werewolves DO want
  • Roar to cost magicka. It’s a utility spell.
  • To be a legitimate and playable choice that can somewhat compete with other builds for PvE dps. The werewolf community is split on whether they should be able to tank or not.
  • Quality of life fixes and bug fixes. They want to be updated to the current state of the game.
  • More uptime in werewolf form. Potentially a way to add time to their werewolf form actively, such as by dealing damage or casting werewolf abilities. This might enable werewolf dps in trials where tanks hold aggro, werewolf RP, and running for long distances between fights. When asked if werewolves being able to permawolf would necessarily be perceived as a bad thing, I didn’t really get pushback from werewolves or non-werewolf players alike. Many were unsure if they would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat, though. Werewolves want to play as werewolves without necessarily having to worry about taking damage, pouncing on things, or looking for Devour synergies.
  • More support for pack or group play, such as synergies, cross healing, or unique buffs.
• Top quality of life concerns
  • Can’t res allies
  • Can’t use synergies
  • Can’t sneak
  • Devour synergy requires precise targeting and direct line of sight without other characters in the way, making it clunky and unwieldy to use in fights

Vampires

• Many have requested an option to toggle off vamp appearance
• People consider vampirism incomplete
  • Want more active abilities
  • Want more meaning to vamp stages
  • Want active and deliberate shifting between stages. Want more decision making
  • But people understand that this isn’t a high priority
• Unequal risk/reward between PvE and PvP
  • Dawnbreaker is the main ultimate for ⅗ stamina classes, and fire damage is everywhere. Destro ult + Vicious Death are the main kill tools for large scale play, siege and especially oils are in every keep fight, mDKs deal predominantly fire damage, and this patch has shifted magicka builds more to using fire staves than ever before.
  • PvPers are shifting away from using vamp, as they find it more punishing than beneficial. They don’t consider it “risky” at this point -- it just hurts to be a vamp because the damage types to which you incur weaknesses are so prevalent. The only archetypes which still widely use vamp are gankers, bombers, and immobile magicka things which need mist form to not be pinned down. Gankers and bombers do not really intend to take damage from players, and mDKs and magplars for example get rekt by snares. Magplars can’t realistically spam that purge like people can spam snares, and wings doesn’t have immunity, leaving mDKs pinned back in place as snares are quickly reapplied.

literally exactly what was changed.

A core mechanic was The heal scaling with magic.

Now I’ll just run two damage set but with 45k health. Man I don’t want to have to run 45k health in pvp.

Which self respecting small scale player want to run 45k health to heal themselves. This changed bothers me multiple times a day.

Darkmage1337

So, when is the next Official Class Rep meeting with ZOS?

Katahdin

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Just a thought on the process/approach being used (that's kind of my job so stuff like this sometimes stands out).

Those piecharts, I wonder if we need different ones for pve/pvp.. If these are a significant driver in what areas should be looked at first, I fear that pve will always prioritise PvP, simply because there are more pve players, and therefore more pve-related responses.

Good stuff overall though.

This is false actually, I will post statistics concerning the share of pve/pvp as well later today, it varies pretty greatly between classes, pvp/pve and roles

Ah, ok. If you also have the info represented separately and are using it, then all good.

It varies per class actually, nightblades had a higher share of pvp, while others had a pretty much equal participation. It's likely because nightblades are in a very good spot in PvE at the moment, but we definitely took that into account!

MAG Nightblades are in a good spot pve wise but NOT STAMblades.

As @mr_wazzabi asked early in the thread, was ANYTHING mentioned about stam dps not being welcome in certain end game content AT ALL????

It's been brought up many times, but nothing was discussed?

I tried to do vet HM Scalecaller on my stam NB . I put 2 pieces of heavy armor on. Had 20K resistances and 25k health but still in died 2 seconds from the health debuff from the ice statues. The mag dps just shield an good to go. Couldn't stay alive long enough.

I should not have to respec my stam nightblade to magicka to complete content EVER!!!!!!!!

BohnT

Katahdin wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Just a thought on the process/approach being used (that's kind of my job so stuff like this sometimes stands out).

Those piecharts, I wonder if we need different ones for pve/pvp.. If these are a significant driver in what areas should be looked at first, I fear that pve will always prioritise PvP, simply because there are more pve players, and therefore more pve-related responses.

Good stuff overall though.

This is false actually, I will post statistics concerning the share of pve/pvp as well later today, it varies pretty greatly between classes, pvp/pve and roles

Ah, ok. If you also have the info represented separately and are using it, then all good.

It varies per class actually, nightblades had a higher share of pvp, while others had a pretty much equal participation. It's likely because nightblades are in a very good spot in PvE at the moment, but we definitely took that into account!

MAG Nightblades are in a good spot pve wise but NOT STAMblades.

As @mr_wazzabi asked early in the thread, was ANYTHING mentioned about stam dps not being welcome in certain end game content AT ALL????

It's been brought up many times, but nothing was discussed?

I tried to do vet HM Scalecaller on my stam NB . I put 2 pieces of heavy armor on. Had 20K resistances and 25k health but still in died 2 seconds from the health debuff from the ice statues. The mag dps just shield an good to go. Couldn't stay alive long enough.

I should not have to respec my stam nightblade to magicka to complete content EVER!!!!!!!!

Scalecaller is doable on any spec and every combination of those specs.
Slot vigor and deadly cloak, throw caltrops and volley on the furthest statue away, then focus the closest one while the other DD kills the third. If you use an ult you can do all 3 on your own.
Is it easier on ranged specs? Yes absolutely but it's doable on any spec.

Letho2469

Yet - as I see it - the fact that magBlades are far too desirable with their PASSIVE! group heal has not even been mentioned. This mechanic devalues all other classes, stamina especially. Please discuss this problem and fix it asap as it's the game's biggest issue in endgame raiding atm.

BohnT

Any Updates from the last meeting?

Tasear

BohnT wrote: »

Any Updates from the last meeting?

Notes will be coming out next week.

Mojomonkeyman

Tasear wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Any Updates from the last meeting?

Notes will be coming out next week.

Any heads up on magicka warden issues?

Joy_Division

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Any Updates from the last meeting?

Notes will be coming out next week.

Any heads up on magicka warden issues?

We made it clear mag wardens did not feel their concerns were addressed on the PTS and spent time talking specific pain points that often come up (swarm needs improvement, CC, buffs too short, legit Ice damage, etc.)

Mojomonkeyman

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Any Updates from the last meeting?

Notes will be coming out next week.

Any heads up on magicka warden issues?

We made it clear mag wardens did not feel their concerns were addressed on the PTS and spent time talking specific pain points that often come up (swarm needs improvement, CC, buffs too short, legit Ice damage, etc.)

Thanks for the feedback to ZOS, any mention worthy reply you can share?

Blobsky

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Any Updates from the last meeting?

Notes will be coming out next week.

Any heads up on magicka warden issues?

We made it clear mag wardens did not feel their concerns were addressed on the PTS and spent time talking specific pain points that often come up (swarm needs improvement, CC, buffs too short, legit Ice damage, etc.)

Thanks for the feedback to ZOS, any mention worthy reply you can share?

I think thats a no for our MagWardens mate xD

Mojomonkeyman

Blobsky wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Any Updates from the last meeting?

Notes will be coming out next week.

Any heads up on magicka warden issues?

We made it clear mag wardens did not feel their concerns were addressed on the PTS and spent time talking specific pain points that often come up (swarm needs improvement, CC, buffs too short, legit Ice damage, etc.)

Thanks for the feedback to ZOS, any mention worthy reply you can share?

I think thats a no for our MagWardens mate xD

Yeah, unfortunately it seems so.

Long_Jon_Nefty

I am against removing malevolent offering, it is the only skill in the NB kit that makes the burst healing aspect feel unique. Path isn't as good as healing springs IMO, it does damage and gives major expedition but a healer shouldn't necessarily be focused on damage and nightblades have so many options to provide expedition.

Offering is also my oh sh** button for allies nearing death. Nightblade healers need one of those you know?
Remove this and its back to path/ resto skills. Without a good panic button option. As for self healing dark cloak works great, but we need our own unique burst heal for allies.
Leave as is I'm begging you!

Katahdin

BohnT wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Just a thought on the process/approach being used (that's kind of my job so stuff like this sometimes stands out).

Those piecharts, I wonder if we need different ones for pve/pvp.. If these are a significant driver in what areas should be looked at first, I fear that pve will always prioritise PvP, simply because there are more pve players, and therefore more pve-related responses.

Good stuff overall though.

This is false actually, I will post statistics concerning the share of pve/pvp as well later today, it varies pretty greatly between classes, pvp/pve and roles

Ah, ok. If you also have the info represented separately and are using it, then all good.

It varies per class actually, nightblades had a higher share of pvp, while others had a pretty much equal participation. It's likely because nightblades are in a very good spot in PvE at the moment, but we definitely took that into account!

MAG Nightblades are in a good spot pve wise but NOT STAMblades.

As @mr_wazzabi asked early in the thread, was ANYTHING mentioned about stam dps not being welcome in certain end game content AT ALL????

It's been brought up many times, but nothing was discussed?

I tried to do vet HM Scalecaller on my stam NB . I put 2 pieces of heavy armor on. Had 20K resistances and 25k health but still in died 2 seconds from the health debuff from the ice statues. The mag dps just shield an good to go. Couldn't stay alive long enough.

I should not have to respec my stam nightblade to magicka to complete content EVER!!!!!!!!

Scalecaller is doable on any spec and every combination of those specs.
Slot vigor and deadly cloak, throw caltrops and volley on the furthest statue away, then focus the closest one while the other DD kills the third. If you use an ult you can do all 3 on your own.
Is it easier on ranged specs? Yes absolutely but it's doable on any spec.

That's the point, it's "bring mag or dont come at all" for most groups. You cant do all 3 statues with a single target ult

Jabbs_Giggity

@Masel92 Great summary provided!

I would like to point out on the remarks against Stamina Characters.
1. Not enough class morphs for Stamina-based abilities (All classes)
2. Not enough diversity from used Weapon Skill-lines (Either Two-handed or Bow)
a. Two Handed has ALL necessary abilities. CC, Gap Closer, Execute
b. Bow gives a ranged option with powerful DoT's or "Severe Cancer" that is Snipe *& Morphs.

Can the idea of reworking Dual Wield skills to include one or more of: Gap Closer (Rending Slash), CC/Root (Blade cloak on activate?) & Execute (Hidden Blade)
*Whirlwind is too powerful as an AOE execute coupled with DW Passives and new option for Bloodthirsty trait.

aquiella

Definitely agree with pet concerns for Sorc and Warden. I really hope console players can get more control over pets and also ability for additional bars if you slot pets. Agree they do take up one to two slots on bar that could be utilized for other skills.

keto3000

Sorc pets could be put on a timer.h en only 1 bar would be necessary. Perhaps choose a longer duration like rune cage.

aquiella wrote: »

Definitely agree with pet concerns for Sorc and Warden. I really hope console players can get more control over pets and also ability for additional bars if you slot pets. Agree they do take up one to two slots on bar that could be utilized for other skills.

Svidrir

There should be the same thing as on the sorcerer strike, a cost increase if cast quickly

ESO_Nightingale

Svidrir wrote: »

There should be the same thing as on the sorcerer strike, a cost increase if cast quickly

stop necroing posts.

Tyreal1974