[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - June 7

SturgeHammer

I am a little relieved that the incap strike opionion leaned more toward making the cc conditional again as opposed to straight up removal. I play a non-cloaking NB build in pvp and the cc on incap is much more relevant for defense than offense. Offensively, incap strike is usually a follow up to a different cc like mass hysteria so not a lot would change after reverting to the old cc condition. Defensively, incap stirke's instant cc is an important tool for defusing burst and reapplying pressure, which is a quality the old cc condition also maintains.

idk

Very good information and points listed here.

@Masel92 for FYI sake, what will be the informaiton source of your pie charts?

Hexys

Derra wrote: »

The comment about sorcerer barspace and use of darkdeal in pve has destroyed every last bit of hope i had that we´d see something good happening.

Honestly it´s baffling how the lead dev can be so disconnected from one of the classes he should be knowing inside out because that´s his job.

Not only is the thought of using darkdeal in pve absolutely unrealistic in it´s current state because it returns to few resources for one cast, has 1.2s casttime + 0.2s animation delay which disrupts rotation - no most importantly it costs stamina which you don´t have in pve builds and makes no sense to gear for to use a lackluster mechanic in the first place.
That he thinks sorc has too many good abilities is just the mindboggling cherry on top of the cake here. Doublebar magelight + aegis and or pets.
What a freaking sad joke.

I´m hugely disappointed.

Wrobel didnt say that sorcerer has to many good abilities. After discussing the bar slots he asked if not slotting anything else is because of to many good abilities or if sorcerer just doesnt have enough barslots

Integral1900

Oh I do love being wrong, doesn’t happen often but by Talos it’s nice when it does

Masel

idk wrote: »

Very good information and points listed here.

@Masel92 for FYI sake, what will be the informaiton source of your pie charts?

The feedback form and the forum threads.

Peekachu99

I thought I would cringe at the results, but these are pretty well spread out across the player spectrum and I don’t find much to disagree with.

Good work, contributors. Now let’s see what ZOS actually does with this info.

P.S. I want to be a werewolf tank, pls and thx. Make this happen already.

anitajoneb17_ESO

DeathStalker wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

ITT: people taking incomplete notes passed around through multiple sets of hands as complete, courtroom-accurate transcripts of the meeting.

It's a shame these meetings can't be recorded and then uploaded to twitch later for all of us to watch.

Come on... let' them WORK. Speech isn't the same in small circles and in front of an audience.
I think the minutes are awesome : concise, detailed, precise, to the point. We don't need more.

Dillpat

seeing stuff materialise from this program is really nice to see but i guess the proof will come in the pudding

greenmachine

testd4n1 wrote: »

greenmachine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS

• Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”

I've got a bad feeling about this

In what aspect? I highly doubt they will add more slots as controllers are used to their full potential as is. Everything is mapped.

Concern about Magicka regen being a pain point in PvE is answered by suggesting sorcs have too many good abilities. That's what makes me uneasy, not that there aren't enough buttons on controllers.

Not much about no-pet PvE magsorcs here, I wonder how many of the class reps main a no-pet PvE magsorc? Looking through the [Class Rep] Sorcerer Feedback Thread, I see one comment by a class rep, and that's by Joy_Division. Joy knows a lot about the game and has my total respect (especially for the vMA guide), but mains a Templar, no? Maybe I'm wrong. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean the sorc class rep isn't reading it, but I would think they would make some kind of post there.

I'm not trying to impugn anybody or throw mud. I want to be optimistic about the class rep program. I'm just voicing my apprehension based on what seems like an offhand reply to what I think is a valid question.

Also , now that you mention it, who do I talk to to get more buttons on these controllers?

Recremen

Interesting breakdown of pain points, though I have to admit some seem a bit off. Since when, for instance, are PvPers moving away from vampire? It's one of the most important toolkits for large group Cyrodiil fights, for instance. But whatever, we'll see where that leads.

I totally wouldn't mind Obsidian Shard being reworked, though. Stam DK completely lacks anything of value to offer a large-group PvP team, so if this skill were reworked to operate more like proxy/shalk that could seriously make them a more competitive choice to bring to raid. As it stands, though, if you're in a large organized PvP guild and running a damage-oriented stam build that isn't a Warden you're basically bringing your team down. Slight exception for stam sorc due to their ability to bring negates. Really that whole delayed-AoE-damage paradigm should be accessible for all stam builds, as it currently is for magicka builds.

technohic

Thinking about the cloak being either too strong or too weak comment; how would you go about changing that? Make cloak require a cast time but yet have it more gauranteed when it goes off? Have mark/detect pots/ whatever just make the cast time longer?

Tasear

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Reserved for pie charts.

Oh I can’t wait! Masel your data was very helpful and insightful.

Hmm now I want pie..

Me too

MalcolM24

Very nice list ^^ I'm glad this program works, and that the reps form a solid team without any drama amongst eachother. Or at least for as far as I can see

Zer0oo

testd4n1

Minyassa wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] More uptime in werewolf form. Potentially a way to add time to their werewolf form actively, such as by dealing damage or casting werewolf abilities. This might enable werewolf dps in trials where tanks hold aggro, werewolf RP, and running for long distances between fights. When asked if werewolves being able to permawolf would necessarily be perceived as a bad thing, I didn’t really get pushback from werewolves or non-werewolf players alike. Many were unsure if they would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat, though. Werewolves want to play as werewolves without necessarily having to worry about taking damage, pouncing on things, or looking for Devour synergies.

Yes please!! I, for one, am very sure that I would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat. For werewolf RP that's a must. Since they can't do most emotes, even role-players would break form every so often to use those, but it would definitely "feel more werewolfy".

I would also love to see some moon-based passives. We have moon phases in the game, I think it would be neat if a passive got stronger with the full moon(s).

I can imagine Cyro on a full moon.

Vaoh

As a whole this list is better than I thought it would be. Of course there are many more issues too which should be mentioned but that’s fine I guess. Like just look at how short the Warden issue list was.....

If even a quarter of what’s written here gives way to solutions that solve their issues, I’ll be amazed.

Nerftheforums

testd4n1 wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] More uptime in werewolf form. Potentially a way to add time to their werewolf form actively, such as by dealing damage or casting werewolf abilities. This might enable werewolf dps in trials where tanks hold aggro, werewolf RP, and running for long distances between fights. When asked if werewolves being able to permawolf would necessarily be perceived as a bad thing, I didn’t really get pushback from werewolves or non-werewolf players alike. Many were unsure if they would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat, though. Werewolves want to play as werewolves without necessarily having to worry about taking damage, pouncing on things, or looking for Devour synergies.

Yes please!! I, for one, am very sure that I would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat. For werewolf RP that's a must. Since they can't do most emotes, even role-players would break form every so often to use those, but it would definitely "feel more werewolfy".

I would also love to see some moon-based passives. We have moon phases in the game, I think it would be neat if a passive got stronger with the full moon(s).

I can imagine Cyro on a full moon.

I could fap to that...but the lag would make the experience lacklustre...

Btw, nice job guys. There are still some things that have not been discussed and have been talked about in the discords and forums, but I do believe they have not been brought up because of lack of time. As a starting point, kudos to everybody! And thank you very much to all reps for the effort and time you guys put in this initiative. We all owe you guys a beer!

Zagnut123Zagnut123

There isn't going to be anything left to talk about for the next meeting slow down. What I'd like to know is which points do zos developers agree on.

Minalan

Hexys wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The comment about sorcerer barspace and use of darkdeal in pve has destroyed every last bit of hope i had that we´d see something good happening.

Honestly it´s baffling how the lead dev can be so disconnected from one of the classes he should be knowing inside out because that´s his job.

Not only is the thought of using darkdeal in pve absolutely unrealistic in it´s current state because it returns to few resources for one cast, has 1.2s casttime + 0.2s animation delay which disrupts rotation - no most importantly it costs stamina which you don´t have in pve builds and makes no sense to gear for to use a lackluster mechanic in the first place.
That he thinks sorc has too many good abilities is just the mindboggling cherry on top of the cake here. Doublebar magelight + aegis and or pets.
What a freaking sad joke.

I´m hugely disappointed.

Wrobel didnt say that sorcerer has to many good abilities. After discussing the bar slots he asked if not slotting anything else is because of to many good abilities or if sorcerer just doesnt have enough barslots

Let’s be honest, it’s because

1. We have THREE shields slotted. That’s our optimal setup. We have to stack, because with just one shield we’re dead after one stun. Damage is just outrageous, especially from stamina builds. Shields have NOT scaled with the rest of the CP power creep. Sorcs do not have the sustain or damage to run heavy armor, and our spell costs are too damn high.

2. Pets have to be double and triple barred. Four slots for just two pets leave PVE Sorcs short on space. How can ZOS not know this?!

3. We MUST slot a Destro skill even if we don’t want to use it to get the ancient knowledge passive bonus. I’d rather use the psijic skill personally, but I CANT. You need force pulse there..

4. We MUST use a Destro staff this patch, dual wield builds are pretty much dead outside of niche overload gank builds. So we are essentially forced to slot one skill many of us do not want.

5. Overload is bugged and clunky. Entering and exiting isn’t smooth. Half the time exiting overload doesn’t show a weapon, or it actually shows a weapon INSIDE of overload (wear an outfit and try it!). The transition into overload is slow, and requires a GCD, and doesn’t work half of the time. It’s so bad many choose not to use it at all, it is NOT a solution to our bar skill problems.

6. Our skills aren’t multi-use, there are too many we have to slot to survive. Sure bound aegis gives a neat Max Magicka buff, but that’s basically the same damn one that everyone else gets from mage light. The active effect on it is not a good defense or replacement for a damage shield. So why would you slot this over one? Make it competitive, it’s supposed to summoned Daedric armor, shouldn’t that be heavy armor? An 8% Magicka boost and Heavy armor active effect with a short duration (6s) and a shield (6s) we could do.

Starlight_Knight

Good feedback all round - Just wish Warden class execute would of been considered for mag wardens.
A sorc gets the best execute for pvp and then has the implosion passive - ijs

Vaoh

technohic wrote: »

Thinking about the cloak being either too strong or too weak comment; how would you go about changing that? Make cloak require a cast time but yet have it more gauranteed when it goes off? Have mark/detect pots/ whatever just make the cast time longer?

These are the changes that worry me the most. The reason that the removal of Frags CC, Spear Shards CC, Deep Fissure CC, Puncturing Strikes CC, and drastic changes to how a class plays caused by changes like the nerfing to death of Sun Shield, lack of need for Puncturing Sweeps, huge DK nerfs because they were OP at one point, etc. These things change the original intent of a class’s design. I used mostly Templar examples but you get the idea - this happened to all classes except NB (at least not as much). These sorts of nerfs have *massively crippled build diversity* which gives way to pretty much all of the separate issues listed above.

So now how will they change Cloak? If they do nerf it then I will honestly lose hope for any of the unpopular nerfs being reverted from other classes. NB is currently the only class with lots of build diversity due to the sole reason that so many of the skills tied to their original class design are still intact and working the exact same way. Their playstyle is still very similar to how it was originally at launch. DKs? Barely. Sorcs? Barely. Templars? Nope.
And now Wardens have been pounded with nerfs since their release - some justified, some highly disapproved of.

So yeah, the whole issue of homogenization that ESO has been suffering from over the past two years (especially since Morrowind)..... I’m getting worried that instead of fixing the issues/solving literally every balance problem by returning class’s their former identities while simultaneously solving individual class issues that have always been there and random imbalances, we’ll see NB feel more and more generic.

Derra

Hexys wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The comment about sorcerer barspace and use of darkdeal in pve has destroyed every last bit of hope i had that we´d see something good happening.

Honestly it´s baffling how the lead dev can be so disconnected from one of the classes he should be knowing inside out because that´s his job.

Not only is the thought of using darkdeal in pve absolutely unrealistic in it´s current state because it returns to few resources for one cast, has 1.2s casttime + 0.2s animation delay which disrupts rotation - no most importantly it costs stamina which you don´t have in pve builds and makes no sense to gear for to use a lackluster mechanic in the first place.
That he thinks sorc has too many good abilities is just the mindboggling cherry on top of the cake here. Doublebar magelight + aegis and or pets.
What a freaking sad joke.

I´m hugely disappointed.

Wrobel didnt say that sorcerer has to many good abilities. After discussing the bar slots he asked if not slotting anything else is because of to many good abilities or if sorcerer just doesnt have enough barslots

Edited my original post due to this clarification statement.

The point on darkdeal still stands. It´s absolutely unrealistic to see this ability used in pve ever in the current state of the game.

Vaoh

Hayden_Knight wrote: »

Very pleased with the warden feedback - agree with all that - 10/10 would pay money just for a quality of life update that addressed these things

Wow.... ZOS is genius at marketing

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

GandTheImpaler

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

Zachary_Shadow

This feels like it would be a good thing. From what I see, a lot of the points people made are on this list. Two of the things I talked about and many others have talked about are on this list (for me, I talked about an option to hide vampirism and more options for stam sorcs). Seeing this list makes me really hopeful and optimistic. It has been a long time since I last believed ZOS was listening to us, but I think they finally are with these Class Reps. Thank you!

Joy_Division

greenmachine wrote: »

testd4n1 wrote: »

greenmachine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS

• Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”

I've got a bad feeling about this

In what aspect? I highly doubt they will add more slots as controllers are used to their full potential as is. Everything is mapped.

Concern about Magicka regen being a pain point in PvE is answered by suggesting sorcs have too many good abilities. That's what makes me uneasy, not that there aren't enough buttons on controllers.

Not much about no-pet PvE magsorcs here, I wonder how many of the class reps main a no-pet PvE magsorc? Looking through the [Class Rep] Sorcerer Feedback Thread, I see one comment by a class rep, and that's by Joy_Division. Joy knows a lot about the game and has my total respect (especially for the vMA guide), but mains a Templar, no? Maybe I'm wrong. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean the sorc class rep isn't reading it, but I would think they would make some kind of post there.

I'm not trying to impugn anybody or throw mud. I want to be optimistic about the class rep program. I'm just voicing my apprehension based on what seems like an offhand reply to what I think is a valid question.

Also , now that you mention it, who do I talk to to get more buttons on these controllers?

For clarification.

I do play a sorc, I do PvE with it, and I do not and won't use pets no matter how "meta" they are.

Non-pet PvE was brought up. It was mentioned that there was no need to bring a magicka sorcerer into a competitive raid environment *except* the Conduit synergy because a mag NB can do the same thing but better. That's in the notes, just not under Sorcerer since it was used as an example for how we think more synergies can be make more classes useful/desirable/fun (just didn't want to repeat stuff).

The question about why sorcerers would not use Dark Deal is a fair one and, I'd argue, a necessary one if good changes that don;t make the game worse are going to be made. Dark Deal is a strong skill that is on many many sorcerer bars for Pvp sustain. It's a good ability. It is. It has been suggested as a legit alternative in PvE by good players posting guides. After the crystal frag nerf, I saw a good parse in which a player dropped frags and replace it with Dark Conversion to get the minor crit buff and sustain. It may be more ideal for PvP, but it's still a good ability and simply accepting suggestions to buff sorcerer sustain when they already have a good sustain ability without even questioning why said ability can't be used would be irresponsible. All the questions asked by Wrobel were in my mind legitimate and a necessary part of the discussion process and quite frankly I'd be worried if he didn't ask them. In my mind the burden should be on the people who claim "X ability is trash it can't be used to Y." For years, sorcerer put Dark exchange on their Overload bar and pretty much trivialized resource management in Vet Maelstrom arena in a way a templar or DK could not do and that was a one big reason, among others, why the class was considered easy mode for farming. Wrobel was 100% right to ask whether or not the issue was whether or not sorcs did not want slot it as opposed to sorcs could not slot it without sacrificing too much in other areas.

The other thing I was say is that I get the feeling as if I and the other reps are supposed to be omniscient. Masel and I went through every single post in Sorc forum thread and tabulated what were the players highest priorities. Non-pet PvE DPS, while maybe a concern to some, was not a pressing concern to those who replied on the forum. ZoS is NOT going to redo the sorcerer class for update 19. Instead, they are going to address a FEW priority pain points (which was why we asked for 2). Even though non-pet sorc DPS wasn't listed as a high priority at all, it *still* got brought up in the meeting - what exactly is not making you optimistic? I did not get a single message in my email saying, "Hey Joy, I don't play pets but still feel overshadowed as a DPS," yet it still got brought up. In fact I only received 1 message at all during this entire process.

See: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5209938/#Comment_5209938 for actual clarification.

Vaoh

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

Were there any suggestions *in particular* for how to change pet controls for console players, rather than just the idea brought up in conversation?

I would suggest that a button and/or button combination was added that specifically controlled pets. If this were to happen, it would be beneficial to furthermore allow for players to customize their controller button layout like PC players can.
If not, maybe (on PS4) we could press something like Triangle+Square to control pets, or maybe Hold Down Triangle. Or maybe both could be added to control separate pet functions? Just a thought.

Masel

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

Masel

Derra wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The comment about sorcerer barspace and use of darkdeal in pve has destroyed every last bit of hope i had that we´d see something good happening.

Honestly it´s baffling how the lead dev can be so disconnected from one of the classes he should be knowing inside out because that´s his job.

Not only is the thought of using darkdeal in pve absolutely unrealistic in it´s current state because it returns to few resources for one cast, has 1.2s casttime + 0.2s animation delay which disrupts rotation - no most importantly it costs stamina which you don´t have in pve builds and makes no sense to gear for to use a lackluster mechanic in the first place.
That he thinks sorc has too many good abilities is just the mindboggling cherry on top of the cake here. Doublebar magelight + aegis and or pets.
What a freaking sad joke.

I´m hugely disappointed.

Wrobel didnt say that sorcerer has to many good abilities. After discussing the bar slots he asked if not slotting anything else is because of to many good abilities or if sorcerer just doesnt have enough barslots

Edited my original post due to this clarification statement.

The point on darkdeal still stands. It´s absolutely unrealistic to see this ability used in pve ever in the current state of the game.

No it is not, it is a very strong resource tool, it restores a ton of resources and I started using it with Summerset.