[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

Chrlynsch

Chrlynsch wrote: »

This is not a nerf other sources of healing post.

I want to compare the werewolf heal to other DD's healing capabilities. I am using Molag Kena, New Moon Acolyte, and Clever Alchemist. This will give us close to top tooltip numbers for our DD heals, while also focusing Effective damage.

Remember werewolf ability are now balanced on a 25% more powerful 25% more costly factor.

Here we are in werewolf form with the sets procced with close to 28k Health.


In pvp we are looking at a little over a 7k burst self heal.

1.1640574564 health restored/ resource spent.

Now let's look at what the human form can pull with its vigor.

12.5k health restored over 4 seconds
3.5736891095 health restored/ resource spent.



2.69 health restored/ resource spent.

7.8k health restored over 5 seconds

The next two I swap over to a magic spected toon. Using the same gear.

4.27 health restored/ resource spent.

Almost 12.5k health


7,481 health restored
1.50 health restored/ resource spent
3.77 if we use it on a target that is below 75% health

Here one of the most expensive heals in the game outpaces Hircine's fortitude in terms of healing effectiveness.

Summary:
In order for werewolf to remain competitive in pvp, the healing properties of Hircine's Heal needs to be adjusted. It is a tank heal, that does not fit into Werewolf's damage dealing archetype that ZOS has stated that werewolf is.

As other DD gain damage they also gain survival through the strength of their heal. In order for werewolf to gain survival they must sacrifice their damage by investing into Health, Magicka, and Magicka regen. This goes against their 25% more powerful abilities for 25% more cost.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

On top of that, classes and weapons have access to many healing passives that can help boost those heals either through major and minor Mending buffs as well as unique %based heals.

Many of the linked abilities can also heal allies as well which also means that someone can use them on you as well, werewolf is completely selfish and adds no group survival. This probably would be ok if they boasted the best single target damage and self heal in the game but as we see that just isn't possible.

Other dd classes also have their primary heal cost their primary resource... werewolf does not.

Slimebrow

newtinmpls wrote: »

SosRuvaak wrote: »

the devs dont care

Well, they do care what upper management tells them to do.

They do care about keeping their jobs.

I find this difficult to believe. :l

Tommy_The_Gun

ScardyFox wrote: »

... yes I said class. It will always be a class to me - hopefully someday it will be to them too.

Yep. I agree with you. WW is, and should be treated at least as "mini-class". And a "mini-class" that has serious drawback of being unable to slot any other skill, other than WW skill, and has no ulti.

Imagine if for example after using necro's Bone Goliath Transformation ulti, you could only slot & use Bone Tyrant skills and you would lose weapon passives... What you would get is a very limited and "handicapped" build.

Imho devs should "look into it" and either treat WW as a "special case" or maybe take ALL the drawbacks WW has and treat it a "kiss - curse" (you have penalty for something, so you get stronger at something else).
The big reason imho WW is how it is now, is that they applied their "standardization" to something that is "abnormal" and works differently than anything else in the game.

Jaraal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The big reason imho WW is how it is now, is that they applied their "standardization" to something that is "abnormal" and works differently than anything else in the game.

I agree. They didn't take into consideration our limitations when applying the 'formula'. Limit everybody else to our choices and then apply your across the board nerfs. (And my apologies for saying it was 30%-30% earlier, Chrlynsch is correct with 25%)





Another indication that they don't actually play the class, or they would have compensated for the lost passives, pressure to maintain form, inherent weaknesses with no way to purge, extremely limited combat options, heal from our off resource, etc.

Assume we have at least 25% (more like 50-75%) less combat choices than other classes... would it be unbalanced to have 25% more damage for the same cost? And that would still do nothing to compensate for our vulnerabilities. And even at less cost for our skills, they have nerfed our damage so much that we would still not be competitive.

Kilcosu

I would like to see the development team do a showcase of what exactly they believe the "indented goal of the Werewolf experience" is because it contradicts everything the player base would like to see in said experience.

I want to see a proper developer werewolf build in what they feel is balanced in both pve and pvp scenarios to show the players who advocate most for the werewolf play style just how wrong we are in every assumption we've made about the balance teams decisions.

as it stands now werewolves are at an all time low and such a vocal minority that we simply lack the support of a large enough player base to be noticed and it is too easy for the combat team to simply write off what feedback we give as "it's fine, we already balanced that"

Nord_Raseri

I only login to do daily crafting these days, and lately I've been skipping that as well. My pve main is a ww. Lost 22k+ dps and it feels so weak these days. Completely spec'd for ww and I still have the same, if not more, dps and definitely more survivability in human form. Same goes for 2 of my pvp toons. Not as fun to play them anymore without ww.

Jaraal

Kilcosu wrote: »

I would like to see the development team do a showcase of what exactly they believe the "indented goal of the Werewolf experience" is because it contradicts everything the player base would like to see in said experience.

It would certainly be entertaining to watch a developer-played werewolf in a deathmatch vs an average player running some poison gear and Silver Leashing / Dawnbreakering + stun locking or fearing + defiling and executing them. Werewolf would be spending all his time and stamina trying to break free and wouldn't even be able to use his 25% damage bonus. And after you blow all your magicka with two heals, it's game over.

Yes, I would like to see that on a live stream some time!

SosRuvaak

Kilcosu wrote: »

I would like to see the development team do a showcase of what exactly they believe the "indented goal of the Werewolf experience" is because it contradicts everything the player base would like to see in said experience.

I want to see a proper developer werewolf build in what they feel is balanced in both pve and pvp scenarios to show the players who advocate most for the werewolf play style just how wrong we are in every assumption we've made about the balance teams decisions.

as it stands now werewolves are at an all time low and such a vocal minority that we simply lack the support of a large enough player base to be noticed and it is too easy for the combat team to simply write off what feedback we give as "it's fine, we already balanced that"

i guarantee you if they did that, it wouldn't be what the community likes.... they dont play the game, i mean they dont play like you and i do, they literally cant perceive the game as a player.
they dont really have a grasp on the community's playstyles, which is why they made community ambassadors.

Faulgor

With Greymoor coming up I thought I'd try WW in PvE again with the New Moon Acolyte set, because you're not using a lot of skills anyway, so it seems like a good choice to go along with Molag Kena. Besides, Blood Moon and New Moon are fitting, right?

Boy, what a disaster. I almost regretted subscribing again after seeing that parse. 30% behind other stam chars and almost no group synergy is excessively bad. Maybe I can get out more by replacing Blood Moon with Rele/Lokk, but still. It's just not there.

Chrlynsch

Faulgor wrote: »

With Greymoor coming up I thought I'd try WW in PvE again with the New Moon Acolyte set, because you're not using a lot of skills anyway, so it seems like a good choice to go along with Molag Kena. Besides, Blood Moon and New Moon are fitting, right?

Boy, what a disaster. I almost regretted subscribing again after seeing that parse. 30% behind other stam chars and almost no group synergy is excessively bad. Maybe I can get out more by replacing Blood Moon with Rele/Lokk, but still. It's just not there.

Best single target parse still comes from Kena, Rele, Bloodmoon.

AmericanSpy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

• Revert the changes to bleed damage so that they once again ignore physical resistance

One thing that could be done is to give WW some strong physical penetration bonus. That way bleed would still be strong on a WW, but in non ww form / non ww build it would not cause problems.

I agree with this 100%. I think this is a very finessed way to help keep WW relevant without affecting the overall game balance. They can even keep WW's current 25%/25% design and do all balancing through WW passives. It's more logical to balance WW based on the passives since they have a limited skill pool to pull from.

I think they need to re-approach the morphs again. They gave Pack Leader a buff because it wasn't used. With the removal of the bleed they have reverted the changes and it yet again no longer adds any benefit over the Berserker. I think a solution for this would be to add Ultimate specific morphs to the skills. Example: The pack leader could get morphs that allow them to control/coordinate the attacks of the wolf companions. This will allow the morphs to have completely unique play styles as well as put the wolf companions more in line with other summon able pets.

Ultimately, I agree that Zenimax should release a statement about what their vision of WW play style exactly is. It clearly is not aligning with player expectations.

SosRuvaak

AmericanSpy wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

• Revert the changes to bleed damage so that they once again ignore physical resistance

One thing that could be done is to give WW some strong physical penetration bonus. That way bleed would still be strong on a WW, but in non ww form / non ww build it would not cause problems.

I agree with this 100%. I think this is a very finessed way to help keep WW relevant without affecting the overall game balance. They can even keep WW's current 25%/25% design and do all balancing through WW passives. It's more logical to balance WW based on the passives since they have a limited skill pool to pull from.

I think they need to re-approach the morphs again. They gave Pack Leader a buff because it wasn't used. With the removal of the bleed they have reverted the changes and it yet again no longer adds any benefit over the Berserker. I think a solution for this would be to add Ultimate specific morphs to the skills. Example: The pack leader could get morphs that allow them to control/coordinate the attacks of the wolf companions. This will allow the morphs to have completely unique play styles as well as put the wolf companions more in line with other summon able pets.

Ultimately, I agree that Zenimax should release a statement about what their vision of WW play style exactly is. It clearly is not aligning with player expectations.

you could control the wolves with a fully charged heavy attack.
it was very useful, and i very much miss the pack leader morph before they ruined it. it was literally perfect where it was, just thinking about what happened with it is irritating. I could heavy attack one mob to get my wolves on it for damage reduction, while still being able to attack. they literally saved me dozens of times.
pack leader needs to be a morph that is good on its own, not just in a group. nobody wants to play on their own time on a toon that can only work with someone else.

Jaraal

SosRuvaak wrote: »

i very much miss the pack leader morph before they ruined it.

Same.

Taking away pets that we could strategically control and replacing them with a dumb, uncontrollable, ineffective, and redundant in group play DoT is the worst thing they did to our playstyle. And it backfired on the battlefield whiners because before, they could target our pets and root, fear, stun, or snare them so they could focus on burning us down, but now they get to deal with an untargetable annoying DoT that follows them around everywhere they go.

I like the idea of giving Pack Leader their own set of skills and making them a viable pet class once again. As it is, I have never seen anybody playing that morph since they wrecked it. Taking our bleed completely away makes us even less effective that the current Berserker.

I wish they would explain their vision for werewolf, because being a "fast paced threat that is a terrifying foe on the battlefield" is NOT what they have achieved. Everything I have heard lately from non-werewolf players is that we are a joke and people look forward to cc'ing and burning us down on the battlefield now.

Drako_Ei

Everytime i see a werewolf at battlegrounds, i see a free kill.

Everytime get a werewolf dps at my dungeon, im already expecting a very long and painful run.

SosRuvaak

Jaraal wrote: »

SosRuvaak wrote: »

i very much miss the pack leader morph before they ruined it.

...Taking away pets that we could strategically control and replacing them with a dumb, uncontrollable, ineffective, and redundant in group play DoT is the worst thing they did to our playstyle.

yep. i really was surprised how they focused on making werewolf *** out of the blue. they literally focused on it. it was pretty balanced before. nobody was complaining much about werewolves being too strong and zenimax thought it would be a good idea to just assume ww was doing too well from numbers they collected(i assume) and trashed it. their idea of 'beast' is weak. its literally weak. like a Chihuahua that comes up to attack your feet.... you arent intimidated by a werewolf by any means anymore.
BEAST? ..what beast? a beast can heal through damage that would slay a regular man. Maybe the combat team needs to understand fear and terror more. a beast is terrifying. there were games even as someone who plays as a werewolf, i felt like i was being hunted. it was nerve wracking. but thats what hircine is all about. before the combat adjustment, i think werewolf was in its best condition. maybe also before vvardenfel dropped too.

the current combat team (which ruined much more than ww) i think needs more actual combat practice, IRL.
maybe with angry werewolves...

or atleast a couple werewolf dreams like i know most of us hardcore ww players have had.

Chrlynsch

Here is another healing comparison same build both heals scale off health and provide some additional damage.



7422+4330= 11752 heal

7422 heal to an ally

Aoe Dot





10783 heal

Major Brutality

32% more expensive

Ishkaral

SosRuvaak wrote: »

the current combat team (which ruined much more than ww) i think needs more actual combat practice, IRL.
maybe with angry werewolves...

I like this and I would volunteer for angriest angry werewolf position

Jaraal

Ishkaral wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

the current combat team (which ruined much more than ww) i think needs more actual combat practice, IRL.
maybe with angry werewolves...

I like this and I would volunteer for angriest angry werewolf position

Misquote, perhaps? Those aren't my words.

Ishkaral

Jaraal wrote: »

Misquote, perhaps? Those aren't my words.

Yeah sorry, removed the wrong tag. And fixed now!

Chrlynsch

I want to compare the werewolf heal to other DD's healing capabilities. I am using Molag Kena, New Moon Acolyte, and Clever Alchemist. This will give us close to top tooltip numbers for our DD heals, while also focusing Effective damage. The toon has a 28.5k health bar in heavy armor.

Remember werewolf ability are balanced on a 25% more powerful 25% more costly factor.

Today lets compare a Stam Warden's staple heal, Soothing spores, to Werewolf's staple heal Hircine's Fortitude.


Here we have Hircine Fortitude, Single target, high magicka cost, based on health. No werewolf passives to increase the heal, or help reduce the cost, or regenerate the resource.

14425 Heal
6483 Magicka cost

But if you heal yourself as a Warden werewolf your passive kicks in granting you 10% more health. So while active your heal will increase.

15501 Heal
6483 Magicka cost


Now here is the base ability of soothing spores, I since you yourself are within 8m of the heal you receive an additional 15% increased heal as well as 2% additional healing done. This is reflected in the tooltip.

When you heal a target with a green balance ability you gain back 200 magicka or stamina whichever is lower for the sake of argument let's say since you are using a stamina ability you are getting stamina back. So the cost of using the ability goes from 4409 to 4209.

13031 Heal
4209 Stamina cost


Let's not forget that Warden's Green Balance tree has the ability to grant major mending.

16254 Heal
4209 stamina cost.

Remember that if we were to put on medium our heals in human form would benefit more because our weapon damage gained influences our heals. Where werewolves would lose both their extra health and their healing received bonus lowering their healing effectiveness if they chose to put on Medium.

Both abilities at max potential including available passives:

Soothing Spores:
-AOE Heal healing yourself and allies in 20m cone in front of you.
-16254 Heal (on self and allies within 8m), 13031 Heal on those past 8m.
-4209 stamina cost (with refund)
-Grants allies healed including self minor toughness.

Utilizes primary resource, allowing heavy attack restore to help sustain healing.

Hircine's Fortitude:
-Self Heal
-15501 Heal (5% less powerful)
-6483 Magicka cost (35% more expensive)
-Grants self minor toughness

Remember werewolf ability are balanced on a 25% more powerful 25% more costly factor.
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Kilcosu

@ZOS_GinaBruno

how can we conform to the ideology of that our abilities cost 25% more resource to deal 25% per cast, heal 25% more per cast vs. like abilities when compared to them (as seen above) the abilities are outright beated in both effectiveness and cost efficient

Chrlynsch

As long as the Werewolf heal does not fit into the archetype of swift damage dealer it will constantly be outclassed by their humanoid counterparts, and remain an underwhelmingly broken novelty.

-Werewolf shouldn't have a boring tank heal...
-Packleader is dull...
-Pounce is still bare...
-Transforming lowers your survival
-Transforming disables your ability heal/ support allies
-Transforming lowers your single target damage
-Transforming lowers your aoe damage
-Transforming kills your mobility (no snare removal)
-Without changing anything on the werewolf on pts, you still somehow managed to break devour and pounce...

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler Ask yourself, with all these limitations and drawbacks, why would anyone want to bring a werewolf to any content, and why would anyone be happy to see an ally bring one?

Aztlan

This. 1000% this.

Chrlynsch

I want to compare the werewolf damage to other DD's capabilities. I am using Molag Kena, New Moon Acolyte, and Clever Alchemist. This will give us close to top tooltip numbers for our DD abilities, while also focusing Effective damage. The Templar toon has a 28.5k health bar in heavy armor.

Remember werewolf abilities are balanced on a 25% more powerful 25% more costly factor.

Today let's compare some charge abilities, Critical Rush and Explosive Charge, to Werewolf's gap closers, Feral Pounce, and Brutal Pounce.

There are a lot of factors that go into damage, passives are one of them, remember that Werewolf losses the majority of its class and all of its weapon passives when transforming.



Critical Rush:
-8422 Damage (Using greatsword)
-3969 Stamina
-Always does Critical Damage, reliable source of increased damage in pve, variable damage increase in pvp based on target's critical resistance
-50% more damage based on range
-12,633 Damage charging at full range before factoring in Crit damage.


Feral Pounce:
-11446 Damage (26% more powerful vs base tooltip at 0m, 10% weaker at 22m Crit Rush range)
-4338 Stamina (9% more expensive)
-Adds 4 seconds



Explosive Charge:
-6m Radius
-9864 Damage
-3791 Magicka
-Can interrupt, Stun, and set target off balance if casting.
-Minor Protection for 6 seconds
-25% chance for an additional 7039 damage
-10% additional damage vs block
-10% additional crit damage


Brutal pounce:
-5m radius (20% smaller radius)
-11804 damage (19.6% more damage)*
-4338 stamina (14% more expensive)

If you hit 4 targets, and a burning light proc goes off with one crit.

Brutal: 53,118
Explosive: 52,413.4

Remember werewolf abilities are balanced on a 25% more powerful 25% more costly factor.

It is becoming more and more obvious as we cross examine werewolf ability tooltips that we can not take them at face value, there are far too many passive and residual effects of the abilities that simply are not being taken into account.

These Werewolf abilities are not 25% more powerful, at 25% increased cost. These werewolf abilities are under loaded and underwhelming.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert

Fix werewolf!

Qbiken

Awsome work @Chrlynsch , hopefully ZOS will see this and make the propper adjustments werewolf needs to be viable in PvP again (and PvE for that matter).

Jaraal

Chrlynsch wrote: »

These Werewolf abilities are not 25% more powerful, at 25% increased cost. These werewolf abilities are under loaded and underwhelming.

And they should add another variable to the equation = (at least) 25% more vulnerable. These other classes you reference can cleanse debuffs and crowd controls, and don't take extra damage from certain sources, like we do.

Kilcosu

Jaraal wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

These Werewolf abilities are not 25% more powerful, at 25% increased cost. These werewolf abilities are under loaded and underwhelming.

And they should add another variable to the equation = (at least) 25% more vulnerable. These other classes you reference can cleanse debuffs and crowd controls, and don't take extra damage from certain sources, like we do.

so to recap werewolves get.
vulnerable to poisons.
vulnerable to snares.
vulnerable to fighters guild skills.
vulnerable to prismatic enchants.
handicapped in disabled weapon passives.
handicapped in 25% cost increase.
handicapped in lower tooltip damage.

apologizes if I missed anything @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
it's a LONG list

ScardyFox

The more and more valid points I see (aside from my own thoughts,valid or not) the more I realize they don't and never have listened. There really is no re

Kilcosu wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

These Werewolf abilities are not 25% more powerful, at 25% increased cost. These werewolf abilities are under loaded and underwhelming.

And they should add another variable to the equation = (at least) 25% more vulnerable. These other classes you reference can cleanse debuffs and crowd controls, and don't take extra damage from certain sources, like we do.

so to recap werewolves get.
vulnerable to poisons.
vulnerable to snares.
vulnerable to fighters guild skills.
vulnerable to prismatic enchants.
handicapped in disabled weapon passives.
handicapped in 25% cost increase.
handicapped in lower tooltip damage.

apologizes if I missed anything @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
it's a LONG list

I love how well this illustrates the point succinctly yet with such great veracity.

ZOS, you actually going to do anything about it or we still pretending everything is in order.

SosRuvaak

I did say zos doesnt care

Jaraal

SosRuvaak wrote: »

I did say zos doesnt care

I think they care. But either apathy or ignorance of how werewolf actually plays in game versus how they think it should compare on a spreadsheet keeps them from making changes to keep us relevant.