[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

Jaraal

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

great burst, mobility and healing

Burst: all other classes can do more damage per second with optimized skills.

Mobility: all other classes can purge snares and other cc.

Healing: Other classes have access to better heals in their natural resource pool.



Why not try playing a werewolf before making these absurd statements?

Qbiken

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

-Savage Strength:
Increases your Armor and Stamina 10000.

@Nefas @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

aggree in general, but this *** should gone into oblivion.
Beast with so great burst, mobility and healing should not be tanky. At all

If werewolf actually had great burst, mobility and healing and would agree with you (even though any non stamina build has tankiness on top of that so I don't see why werewolf shouldn't have it as well, but whatever), but ww has none of it.......

Chrlynsch

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

-Savage Strength:
Increases your Armor and Stamina 10000.

@Nefas @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

aggree in general, but this *** should gone into oblivion.
Beast with so great burst, mobility and healing should not be tanky. At all

Human form has access to better Better Burst, mobility, and healing.

Werewolf really isn't tanky compared to human mode. 10k armor does provide 15% reduction to Physical and Spell damage. But really that is all werewolf has for defense. Now that is countered with their weaknesses that makes them take 20% more damage from Fighters Guild and Poison abilities.

Human classes all have access to and at least in pvp the majority of players use major resolve. This ability provides close to 8% damage mitigation. Werewolf however does not have access to this ability.

But in eso tankyness doesn't come from armor alone, it comes from multiple sources. Minor maim on opponents 15%, Major Protection 30%, Minor Protection 8%, Major Resolve 8%, Major Evasion 20% (aoe), Minor Evasion 10% (aoe). These are all buffs that reduce incoming damage that humans can have access to with using their fancy second bar.

As for healing, werewolf's primary heal is horrible compared to human forms capabilities, while good for a quick recovery from burst damage it is massively expensive and impossible to sustain without making great sacrifices to damage.

On top of that werewolf has no access to major or minor Mending, they have no access to major or minor Vitality. So even with the Healing done/resource spent being one of the worst of the heals in the game. It gets even worse in comparison when compared with buffs like these active.

On mobility, all the speed in the world does you no good when snares stack, there is a speed cap, and you have no snare removal tool in your kit. Imagine if they removed all snare removals from the game... how many players would riot?

Aznox

Here is my current (March 2020) position about what could be a nice way to help Werewolf :

- Ability to crouch/sneak like anyone else, associated with a significant timer slowing when in stealth (something like 80-90%)
- - this would help to maintain form between fights in group PVE, while keeping the need to manage timer during fights
- - same for Battleground, lowering the pressure to jump back in a fight alone, while your team is respawning
- - in solo PvP (like IC) this would give an option to avoid fights you could not disengage from
- - this change would not increase werewolf's 1v1 power

- Adding a short root/slow immunity after the leap
- - this would be a nice touch to help werewolf presence in group PvP

Chrlynsch

Aznox wrote: »

Here is my current (March 2020) position about what could be a nice way to help Werewolf :

- Ability to crouch/sneak like anyone else, associated with a significant timer slowing when in stealth (something like 80-90%)
- - this would help to maintain form between fights in group PVE, while keeping the need to manage timer during fights
- - same for Battleground, lowering the pressure to jump back in a fight alone, while your team is respawning
- - in solo PvP (like IC) this would give an option to avoid fights you could not disengage from
- - this change would not increase werewolf's 1v1 power

- Adding a short root/slow immunity after the leap
- - this would be a nice touch to help werewolf presence in group PvP

Very nice suggestions Aznox!

Skoomah

Werewolf is GOD mode. TRUTH

Nord_Raseri

Skoomah wrote: »

Werewolf is GOD mode. TRUTH

SGT_Courtney

@Chrlynsch any differences with the buff to Molag Kena on live? Seems like LA/Roar would be much more sustainable in between bloodmoon procs.

Chrlynsch

SGT_Courtney wrote: »

@Chrlynsch any differences with the buff to Molag Kena on live? Seems like LA/Roar would be much more sustainable in between bloodmoon procs.

Was about a 400dps increase on a 6mil, and no increase on a trial dummy as sustain wasn't an issue on it before the buff.

Nord_Raseri

Everyone ready for the 78% LA damage reduction and loss of molag kena? It's going to be fantastic.

Jaraal

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

Everyone ready for the 78% LA damage reduction and loss of molag kena? It's going to be fantastic.

The loss of DPS on my unplayed werewolves will not be noticeable.

SGT_Courtney

Was about a 400dps increase on a 6mil, and no increase on a trial dummy as sustain wasn't an issue on it before the buff.[/quote]

Thanks much!

Nord_Raseri

Jaraal wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

Everyone ready for the 78% LA damage reduction and loss of molag kena? It's going to be fantastic.

The loss of DPS on my unplayed werewolves will not be noticeable.

True, but I've just been running with the same build in human form throwing some aoes and dots in the interim and I'm sitting at 50k .I'm a mediocre player with severe nerve damage in most of my fingers, and this build is the best I can physically do for dps. I will definitely be taking a hit.

Jaraal

Ok, so I decided to load up one of my guys who hasn't had his werewolf skill points refunded on the PTS, and went to a public dungeon that I farm a lot on live. I zoned in, transformed, hit Pounce... and slowly(!) jumped high in the air and came down on the first pack of six mobs.

I started spamming light attack.... and they have slowed it down to where I get ONE swipe for every three left clicks on the mouse. So I charged up a heavy attack, and it takes about twice as long for one swing! The hit knocked one guy out of the picture (my guy has the Pack Leader morph, so no splash damage), but the other five guys pounding on and nuking me had me spamming Hircine's just to stay alive!

I managed to barely stay alive and kill the last mob, but it took me about 20 seconds. In my regular form, with regular skills the pack is dead in 5 seconds. I just camped out at that point, no sense in struggling to complete a simple public dungeon. I wanted it to work.... I really did, but there's no hope for us if these changes go live as-is. You folks who like to PvP in wolf form will be in for a rude awakening.

Qbiken

https://youtu.be/SJNzJoS35M0

Another werewolf content creator quitting werewolf due to how bad it currently is. ZOS, when are you going to take the feedback we've posted is this thread seriously?

When I thought that werewolf couldn't get nerfed any further (be it directly or indirectly) you managed to reduce werewolf damage even further by reducing light attack damage by 78%. And with the additional changes to bloodmoon you're forcing people to run that set if they want to do decent dps on a ww. Previously there were other option of you didn't have access to the BiS gear for PvE werewolfs to be somewhat competitive, now there is non.

And don't get me started on PvP. If anything, a damage nerf was the absolute last thing werewolfs needed. Do us and yourselves a favour and read the feedback in this thread dating back to Elsweyr and forward, all you need to know about making werewolf viable again is in there.

Nord_Raseri

I think the combat team needs to be tagged in this post daily.

Jaraal

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

I think the combat team needs to be tagged in this post daily.

They've already proven that they can ignore us through 33 pages. I honestly don't think tagging anyone will change that.

Nord_Raseri

Jaraal wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

I think the combat team needs to be tagged in this post daily.

They've already proven that they can ignore us through 33 pages. I honestly don't think tagging anyone will change that.

I believe you're correct. Though, to be fair, there are a LOT of threads on these forums to look through. I just wish they'd actually look at this one and take our ideas to heart.

Chrlynsch

Caius: Molag Kena and Light attacks are the cornerstone of Werewolf dps

ZOS: Hold my beer

Skoomah

Please stop. I die to werewolves all the time in PVP. A LOT.

Tommy_The_Gun

Skoomah wrote: »

Please stop. I die to werewolves all the time in PVP. A LOT.

Where ? In Cyro ? Do you mean those WW mobs between Sej & Drake ?

Nord_Raseri

Skoomah wrote: »

Please stop. I die to werewolves all the time in PVP. A LOT.

That's what happens when you do the redgaurd dance completely naked while letting that werewolf attack you for 15 minutes before your character finally dies of pity.

Ishkaral

I'm planning to quit if that PTS idea is actually going to roll out into live one day, it just terrible overall... even if I already pre-ordered Grey moor chapter I don't feels hesitate for it it's direct hit to werewolf LA performance anyway [yes I have tested on PTS about 7k dps loss for me, sounds not that bad but still I have spent a lot of time investing on my main trying to make him good, using him helping people through dungeons or trials and such... my enjoyment seems to almost drop to the end after more nerfs and nerfs and nerfs, 180 degree changes and such]

Disclaimer I'm not using kena so the nerf have no hit for me, I'm an orc warden using bloodmoon + relequen + velidreth. I don't find kena being useful in humanoid form.

My performance is not the best but DPS usually around 60-65K in trials depends on how the boss love to move away and such.

A boring atro dummy test on live
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/372734201612599299/691780576415580250/20200324054804_1.jpg

And another boring test from PTS
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/372734201612599299/691780509789061210/20200324053137_1.jpg

I was having a lot of nice time playing this game, meet new people good accomplish lots of goal I set up but still have two things that I really want are to get Beast Personality and Sable Man-Beast. Which vMoS and vMHK were designed in the higher power level era, when they nerfed stuff they didn't bring dungeon difficulty down with it [AoE nerfed make it harder to clear all the mobs for speed runs always 3 mins late for me and my group that I have tried with on vMoS, vMHK I don't even dare to try it]

I will just see how the things goes and will decide what to do afterward.

FenrisWolf1136

Qbiken wrote: »

Kilcosu wrote: »

@Alcast for the sake of curiosity.
is the class rep program still running?
does this thread even matter anymore or is it just a consolidation of mostly like minded players that is ultimately ignored.

I ask only because I notice the other "class rep" threads have mostly gone inactive so did we not get a memo?

Give @Chrlynsch and hour or two with the devs and they can fix ww

Yeah, not in a long shot.
There are many changes that need to happen, and focusing on just some skill changes is too narrow in scope to fix the issues.

Ww needs reworked all together given its trying to play as a class when its just an ultimate. Its too limited. It needs expanded upon and brought up to be something more. I mained my werewolf for 2 years, now i can't because they can't handle the harder pve content that i play now.

They are stuck and underperforming in the current state, and even more of the same after the "reworked" ideas above. Ww seems like it was an afterthought and got stuck somewhere inbetween ult and full on class. Sad to see given how much i love playing as one.

Jaraal

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

There are many changes that need to happen, and focusing on just some skill changes is too narrow in scope to fix the issues.

All they need to do is roll us back to Wolfhunter again, when we were relevant. When they revamped us then, they put us on par with regular classes damage wise, but we still had our limitations and weaknesses that could be used against us.

Werewolf was fun to play then, and with vampire being reworked and buffed with Greymoor, they should bring us back to at least be competitive once again.

notyuu

Lets take a look at werewolf


as you can see..the bad outweigh the good by a fair amount, so what can be done to fix this?

well, the poison weakness, time limit, power limit and ult cost are just part of the gig, so we can't really address those, as for the other issues

Half the morphs are useless

• Feral pounce: it's fine, grants way to increase transformation time at a range
• Hircine's Rage: have it grant frenzy [faster light attack buff] for 5 seconds
• Ferocious roar: Replace off balance with major maim
• Howl of despair: allow the user to also get empower from the syngery
• Claws of life: increase damage by 100%

Stamina Recovery bonus requires giving up ult slot
Have werewolf gain permanent +5% stamina recovery while in mortal form, bonus increases to 15% when werewolf ult is slotted

main heal costs ~50% of max magicka
Reduce the cost of the main heal significantly but make it half burst, half hot WITHOUT reducing the total end value of the healing

DoT Heal is comically weak
See morphs list, increasing damage of claws of life by 100% would make the healing just weak instead of comically weak

mag players gets diddly squit
Make it so that in ww form all abiltites scale from the highest of your stam&wep/mag&spell

No access to weapon enchantments
Allow access to weapon enchantments but with a 50% longer cooldown on proc [i've seen what happens when enchants are just stright up allowed..it was chaos]

no access to poisons
grant access to poisons

no access to weapon passives
Give WW tweaked weapon passives while in beast form

• dagger = +5% crit damage
• axe = +2 second dot duration
• sword = WW powers cost 2.5% less
• mace = WW transformation lasts 2 seconds longer
• Great-sword = WW powers cost 5% less
• Maul = 4 second increased duration
• Battle-axe = +4 second dot duration
• Restro staff = healing also heals allies for 20% the amount
• destro staff = +1K max stamina for every 3K max magicka
• shield = heavy attacks taunt and debuff

Powers cost too much stamina
Reduce the power cost across the board by about 15%

Powers are pitifully weak
Make it so that every time the werewolf is hit in beast form they gain a stack of rage which grants them +3% damage, lasts 5 seconds, stacks 10 times [to prevent ww ganking among other nonsence]

pack leader morph is literally useless due to wolves being unviable
Make the wolves move 35% faster, deal damage and apply snare, remove the maim

Bleed on berserker morph are so weak it's funny
Make the bleed bypass resistance

werewolf models look outdated
Take the Hulking werewolf model, make a grey version, a black version and a white version, then rig it and apply as the players werewolf form appearance.

Chrlynsch

notyuu wrote: »

Lets take a look at werewolf


as you can see..the bad outweigh the good by a fair amount, so what can be done to fix this?

well, the poison weakness, time limit, power limit and ult cost are just part of the gig, so we can't really address those, as for the other issues

Half the morphs are useless

• Feral pounce: it's fine, grants way to increase transformation time at a range
• Hircine's Rage: have it grant frenzy [faster light attack buff] for 5 seconds
• Ferocious roar: Replace off balance with major maim
• Howl of despair: allow the user to also get empower from the syngery
• Claws of life: increase damage by 100%

Stamina Recovery bonus requires giving up ult slot
Have werewolf gain permanent +5% stamina recovery while in mortal form, bonus increases to 15% when werewolf ult is slotted

main heal costs ~50% of max magicka
Reduce the cost of the main heal significantly but make it half burst, half hot WITHOUT reducing the total end value of the healing

DoT Heal is comically weak
See morphs list, increasing damage of claws of life by 100% would make the healing just weak instead of comically weak

mag players gets diddly squit
Make it so that in ww form all abiltites scale from the highest of your stam&wep/mag&spell

No access to weapon enchantments
Allow access to weapon enchantments but with a 50% longer cooldown on proc [i've seen what happens when enchants are just stright up allowed..it was chaos]

no access to poisons
grant access to poisons

no access to weapon passives
Give WW tweaked weapon passives while in beast form

• dagger = +5% crit damage
• axe = +2 second dot duration
• sword = WW powers cost 2.5% less
• mace = WW transformation lasts 2 seconds longer
• Great-sword = WW powers cost 5% less
• Maul = 4 second increased duration
• Battle-axe = +4 second dot duration
• Restro staff = healing also heals allies for 20% the amount
• destro staff = +1K max stamina for every 3K max magicka
• shield = heavy attacks taunt and debuff

Powers cost too much stamina
Reduce the power cost across the board by about 15%

Powers are pitifully weak
Make it so that every time the werewolf is hit in beast form they gain a stack of rage which grants them +3% damage, lasts 5 seconds, stacks 10 times [to prevent ww ganking among other nonsence]

pack leader morph is literally useless due to wolves being unviable
Make the wolves move 35% faster, deal damage and apply snare, remove the maim

Bleed on berserker morph are so weak it's funny
Make the bleed bypass resistance

werewolf models look outdated
Take the Hulking werewolf model, make a grey version, a black version and a white version, then rig it and apply as the players werewolf form appearance.

Enchants and Poisons do work in werewolf form.

perditioner

You also missed that you lose access to any ultimate when transformed, and the ability to charge it.

Tommy_The_Gun

Imho the biggest flaw of ww, if I were to point 3.. or hell, only 1, biggest WW flaw, that would be:

1. Lack of Snare removal / immunity. Without it there is no way to use WW as devs described it:

"A fast paced thread that is a terrifying foe on the battlefield."

It is not fast. There is no way to play fast and move fast. You have to constantly spam CC-break in order to move at all...

If I were to point 2nd biggest flaw it would be:
2. Lack of negative effects removal. Without this, every dot or de-buff is basically either a death-sentence for you or means that you have no sustain / recover or dmg. Sure, you can out-heal the dmg, but it will burn through your resources, meaning that you basically have no sustain. As for the de-buffs (reducing dmg/crit/resistance) - there is nothing you can do.

If I were to point 3rd biggest flaw it would be:
3. Healing. WW healing is almost non-existent, since you have to build for magincka sustain on a stamina build. Basically - you have to hybridize - to have either larger magicka pool or magicka recovery. Also the heal is way to expensive for what it does.

"We're also aware of some Werewolf abilities feeling "bare" in nature"

Devs themselves have said it. WW skills should have more effects on them.

I can see a solution:
Hircine's Bounty - magicka burst heal
1 Morph - adds negative effect removal.
2 Morph - converts to stamina ability, and heal is converted to dot-heal (basically vigor for ww).

Pounce (they even mentioned it is bare lol):
This is the perfect "candidate" for a skill granting snare removal / immunity buff. I don't know if it should be added to base morph or the one of 2 morphs - but either way it would be unique, because in order to remove snare - you would have to play aggressive. You would have to deal dmg with this skill (it needs a target) for the snare removal to work. So risk - reward would still be there.

Jaraal

perditioner wrote: »

You also missed that you lose access to any ultimate when transformed, and the ability to charge it.

Also increased damage taken from Fighters Guild skills and Prismatic Onslaught glyphs. Also no way to purge DOTs or remove snares.