[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

Wuuffyy

Skoomah wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

Nefas was trying to make a point from a roleplay perspective. Calm down and redirect your frustration at ZOS for having multiple personality disorder.

Nefas

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

Chrlynsch

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

The problem is ZOS has officially taken the stance that Werewolf is not supposed to tank.

Their latest stance about morphs stated;

The werewolf morphs were initially designed to have Pack Leader emphasized on utility, while Berserker was meant to be the offensive and raw damage choice. Due to the Direwolves' damage and attack speed, Berserker was constantly eclipsed, and Pack Leader wasn't provided much utility other than causing target complications for enemies. Now, Pack Leader allows your doggos to enfeeble your foes, while Berserker lets you rip and tear.

And if we are talking actual wolf pack hunting dynamics, we would point out that the pack leaders are most commonly actually the matriarchs (Pack Leaders) . Oddly enough focus on teaching the heavier hitters (Berserkers) on how to effectively exicute a kill (adding extra direct damage to allies).

Wuuffyy

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

The problem is ZOS has officially taken the stance that Werewolf is not supposed to tank.

Their latest stance about morphs stated;

The werewolf morphs were initially designed to have Pack Leader emphasized on utility, while Berserker was meant to be the offensive and raw damage choice. Due to the Direwolves' damage and attack speed, Berserker was constantly eclipsed, and Pack Leader wasn't provided much utility other than causing target complications for enemies. Now, Pack Leader allows your doggos to enfeeble your foes, while Berserker lets you rip and tear.

And if we are talking actual wolf pack hunting dynamics, we would point out that the pack leaders are most commonly actually the matriarchs (Pack Leaders) . Oddly enough focus on teaching the heavier hitters (Berserkers) on how to effectively exicute a kill (adding extra direct damage to allies).

Right. Its not doing any of that now though.

Wuuffyy

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

The problem is ZOS has officially taken the stance that Werewolf is not supposed to tank.

Their latest stance about morphs stated;

The werewolf morphs were initially designed to have Pack Leader emphasized on utility, while Berserker was meant to be the offensive and raw damage choice. Due to the Direwolves' damage and attack speed, Berserker was constantly eclipsed, and Pack Leader wasn't provided much utility other than causing target complications for enemies. Now, Pack Leader allows your doggos to enfeeble your foes, while Berserker lets you rip and tear.

And if we are talking actual wolf pack hunting dynamics, we would point out that the pack leaders are most commonly actually the matriarchs (Pack Leaders) . Oddly enough focus on teaching the heavier hitters (Berserkers) on how to effectively exicute a kill (adding extra direct damage to allies).

Right. Its not doing any of that now though.

And the morph is still not efficient OR fun.

Tommy_The_Gun

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

The problem is ZOS has officially taken the stance that Werewolf is not supposed to tank.

Their latest stance about morphs stated;

The werewolf morphs were initially designed to have Pack Leader emphasized on utility, while Berserker was meant to be the offensive and raw damage choice. Due to the Direwolves' damage and attack speed, Berserker was constantly eclipsed, and Pack Leader wasn't provided much utility other than causing target complications for enemies. Now, Pack Leader allows your doggos to enfeeble your foes, while Berserker lets you rip and tear.

And if we are talking actual wolf pack hunting dynamics, we would point out that the pack leaders are most commonly actually the matriarchs (Pack Leaders) . Oddly enough focus on teaching the heavier hitters (Berserkers) on how to effectively exicute a kill (adding extra direct damage to allies).

Right. Its not doing any of that now though.

Agree. That Is why I proposed the tank idea. Right now, Pack Leader does not seem to have any benefit. Trading all that DMG over a weak de-buff that is only applied by pets is simply not worth it and (from the lack of better word) pathetic.

Also, think of how pets work in this game. You do not have much controlled over them, and they tend to attack one enemy at once. So even if you have 2 pets, the de-buff will be applied to one mob at the time. Also, bosses are immune to snares so that is kinda a pointless de-buff.

Chrlynsch

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

All classes have a unique buff that they bring to a group, while in were form they do not provide that buff to the group. Werewolf should be given a unique buff to their pounce that grants a group or raid that buff.

That's a pretty interesting idea.

@Nefas thanks for chiming in.

Here is the same idea but fully fleshed out.

Pounce on an enemy, dealing x Physical Damage.
You and your group members within 30 meters gain Ravenous for 20 seconds, increasing damage over time by 8%

A werewolf deals roughly 30k dot damage on pts, so they would gain roughly 2.4k dps on an iron target dummy.


I had this posted about packleader in another thread.


Pack leader should drop the direwolves and move to something more thematic.

Pack Leader 200 ult:

Transform into a beast, fearing nearby enemies for 3 seconds.
You and your group members within 30m gain an additional 20% to the call of the pack bonus and deal an additional 8% direct damage.
While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.

Pack leader for solo play would have a more manageable timer but lower dps.

In group play they would provide a powerful boon to a group or raid. That would increase overall raid dps enough to make up for their lower dps values.

Thematically and min/max, you wouldn't want to bring more than one pack leader to a raid or pvp group as their buffs wouldn't stack.

Due to the variable nature and needs of group composition I would make one unusual request. Allow werewolves to change ult morph at any time. So when you make up a new group you can easily establish who is the packleader and who will be Berserker, without a trip to the shrine every time you switch content or group comp (Switching ults while transformed will make you lose your form and revert to human form as it does now).

Not a bad idea. Would certainly help getting werewolves into some of the vet trials because they would bring something valuable to the table for overall dps. Don't even really need to lose the direwolves. They could provide their own unique buff/debuff every so often. Maybe whatever enemy they have aggro on could be the target of a low % increased damage from light attacks or direct damage or some effect.

This way it only really affects one enemy, can be changed with a heavy attack, and still provides a small buff for groups that only run with one werewolf in situations where you can't pounce due to mechanics.

I played around with some %'s and it looks like 6% bonus damage would be the magic number, to add value without becoming meta or required.

Pounce:
Pounce on an enemy, dealing x Physical Damage.
You and your group members within 30 meters gain Ravenous for 20 seconds, increasing damage over time by 6%

Pack Leader:
Transform into a beast, fearing nearby enemies for 3 seconds.
You and your group members within 30m gain an additional 20% to the call of the pack bonus and deal an additional 6% direct damage.
While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.

I played around with some %'s and it looks like 6% bonus damage would be the magic number to add value without becoming meta or required.

With a 100% uptime.

Scalebreaker dps on Iron Dummy:
Berserker 84k
Packleader 69k

With dot damage buff: (from pounce)
Berserker 85.8k (+1.8k)
Packleader 69.9k (+.9k)

With direct damage buffs: (from pack leader)
Berserker 86.2k (+3.2k)
Packleader 72.2k (+3.2k)

Both buffs:
Berserker 89k (+5k)
Packleader 73.1k (+4.1k)

Trial Scenario 1:
8 dps @ 100k w/ no werewolves = 800k dps.

Trial Scenario 2:
7 dps @ 103k w/ 1 Berserker @ 85.8 = 806.8k dps.

Trial Scenario 3:
7 dps @ 106k w/ 1 Packleader @ 73.1k = 815.1k

The more werewolves you add to a group the lower the potential dps drops but the easier it would be to keep transformation up the entire fight. With 3 Berserkers and 1 Pack Leader you would hold werewolf form without fear of dropping it. The overall total dps increases without overturning the Pack Leader or Berserker dps raw damage, and in turn throw off pvp balance.

Edited for content*

cmvet

But is maintaining werewolf really that hard? I can't think of many situations in PVE that I ran out of transformation whether that was in solo, 4 man, or trials when I was the only werewolf. If you use feral pounce right along with the ww passives you don't even need to devour.

I would like to see a unique buff the ww could provide to group or up to 4 members or something. I think the pack leader morph is a perfect morph for that. Like I said earlier, let each color direwolf provide a specific buff or debuff. We currently have 3 colors and you get two up at a time. They just have to code it so you don't get two of the same color. Maybe one gives damage boost to "up to 12" group members, one provides 1k max stam or mag, the last provides minor toughness or something.

They just need to give pack leader some better utility to get people to have a reason to choose that morph. As it stands now with a severe DPS loss compared to Beserker morph, and the direwolves no longer targetable or able to draw agro I just don't see why people would choose it.

Chrlynsch

cmvet wrote: »

But is maintaining werewolf really that hard? I can't think of many situations in PVE that I ran out of transformation whether that was in solo, 4 man, or trials when I was the only werewolf. If you use feral pounce right along with the ww passives you don't even need to devour.

I would like to see a unique buff the ww could provide to group or up to 4 members or something. I think the pack leader morph is a perfect morph for that. Like I said earlier, let each color direwolf provide a specific buff or debuff. We currently have 3 colors and you get two up at a time. They just have to code it so you don't get two of the same color. Maybe one gives damage boost to "up to 12" group members, one provides 1k max stam or mag, the last provides minor toughness or something.

They just need to give pack leader some better utility to get people to have a reason to choose that morph. As it stands now with a severe DPS loss compared to Beserker morph, and the direwolves no longer targetable or able to draw agro I just don't see why people would choose it.

Did you happen to read my post earlier about wanting pack leader providing extra direct damage to everyone in your group?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6238183/#Comment_6238183

I will clean up my last post to better explain it to people just joining the thread.

FenrisWolf1136

cmvet wrote: »

But is maintaining werewolf really that hard? I can't think of many situations in PVE that I ran out of transformation whether that was in solo, 4 man, or trials when I was the only werewolf. If you use feral pounce right along with the ww passives you don't even need to devour.

I would like to see a unique buff the ww could provide to group or up to 4 members or something. I think the pack leader morph is a perfect morph for that. Like I said earlier, let each color direwolf provide a specific buff or debuff. We currently have 3 colors and you get two up at a time. They just have to code it so you don't get two of the same color. Maybe one gives damage boost to "up to 12" group members, one provides 1k max stam or mag, the last provides minor toughness or something.

They just need to give pack leader some better utility to get people to have a reason to choose that morph. As it stands now with a severe DPS loss compared to Beserker morph, and the direwolves no longer targetable or able to draw agro I just don't see why people would choose it.

It certainly can be In situations where there are no enemies or mechanics prevent much movement, ill use march of sacrifices for a quick and easy example. During the hunt phase on the indrik boss, there are no enemies to hit, devour, or pounce to. Keeping ww up between phases is extremely hard because you have to be exact in the timing. Even then, depending on the wisp, you can fall out of form before the next phase. It doesn't need much adjustment, but either being able to bring ww form up faster or keep it up for just a bit longer would certainly be a helpful step in the right direction for those situations. Trials are the same after a mistake wipe, the group won't pull right away to reset and prep and ww form falls off.

TankHealz2015

"Werewolf tank, probably never, werebear someday, maybe."


WW Pack Leader = utility/ group support (current PTS the pups are useless/ need better utility)

WW Beserker = DPS = players on PTS are posting big numbers (big for normal players/ average for elite players)

WEREBEAR = 3rd morph option = have ability to taunt either through WB morph, skill, or (Tormentor) armor set... ?

Jaraal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

The problem is ZOS has officially taken the stance that Werewolf is not supposed to tank.

Their latest stance about morphs stated;

The werewolf morphs were initially designed to have Pack Leader emphasized on utility, while Berserker was meant to be the offensive and raw damage choice. Due to the Direwolves' damage and attack speed, Berserker was constantly eclipsed, and Pack Leader wasn't provided much utility other than causing target complications for enemies. Now, Pack Leader allows your doggos to enfeeble your foes, while Berserker lets you rip and tear.

And if we are talking actual wolf pack hunting dynamics, we would point out that the pack leaders are most commonly actually the matriarchs (Pack Leaders) . Oddly enough focus on teaching the heavier hitters (Berserkers) on how to effectively exicute a kill (adding extra direct damage to allies).

Right. Its not doing any of that now though.

Agree. That Is why I proposed the tank idea. Right now, Pack Leader does not seem to have any benefit. Trading all that DMG over a weak de-buff that is only applied by pets is simply not worth it and (from the lack of better word) pathetic.

Also, think of how pets work in this game. You do not have much controlled over them, and they tend to attack one enemy at once. So even if you have 2 pets, the de-buff will be applied to one mob at the time. Also, bosses are immune to snares so that is kinda a pointless de-buff.

Ideally, there should be three morphs. Pack Leader (utility), Berserker (DPS), and Wolf Champion (or some other name, tank.)

Give the third morph a taunt, damage shield, and a couple of skills related to sword and board. That would end the debate about whether ww should tank or not. And make it slightly less capable than a standard tank, so that it doesn't become the new meta tank that others will complain about, while still being effective enough to not be insta-kicked from trials or groups.

hailtomichigan

1.transformation ultimate times feel short for PvE world questing. In open PvE world I don't want to be devouring all the time. If you want to keep short timer for dungeons or PvP that's ok, I just want to relax in open PvE world and play slow.

2.Needs a good damage AoE of its own. Maybe new skill line for PvE.

Dubhliam

Since we are talking about WW tanking here, I'd like to point out that the Tormentor set does not proc from the WW Pounce skill.

It seems as if the game does not count Pounce as a gap closer?

I organised a WW roleplay normal trial some time ago, and the fact that tanks could not hold aggro even with Tormentor kind of ruined the experience.

I don't think that WW should inherently have tanking embedded into their skillset, but I also think that Tormentor is not supposed to discriminate.

Chrlynsch

The entire pts cycle goes by, not a single adjustment to the skill line. I'm really not to sure what to say at this point. Has ZOS missed everything its player base has taken time to test? Or, even worse have they just completely ignored all of our concerns?

No comments from any of the devs the entire time. No additional effects added to pounce (like they said they were looking to do). Pack Leader completely gutted.

Nothing left to do but sit here and sing the song of my people.

HOOOWWWLLLLLL

Qbiken

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Gilliam

Imagine ignoring an entire PTS cycle of feedback when you make changes that have more impact on werewolfs in PvE and PvP than the rework in Wolfhunter had...

But seeing the rest of the changes to other classes and skillines with scalebreaker, it just shows how out of touch the developers are with their own game, so I'm not even surprised at this when you fail over and over again to listen and implement feedback from players who spend time testing this mess.....

Dashmatt

Is there still a Werewolf class rep?

All of the player testing and feedback was completely ignored for the entire PTS. Not even a single comment. What was that note about Pounce in 5.0.1? Was that seriously meant for the next update?

Lots of other feedback was heard and many other changes were adjusted/reverted. Why the silence? This form of Werewolf can’t possibly fit any sort of “vision.”

Chrlynsch

@Nefas has chimed in a few times in the werewolf threads since pts started and new reps announced.

But who knows how frequently the reps actually get to relay the information and feedback they have gathered.

Tommy_The_Gun

SosRuvaak

none of these changes to the ult morphes were needed, this patch has effectively made pack leader useless.

Reduced the damage dealt by your Light and Heavy Attacks with this ability and its morphs by approximately 17%.

This ability and the Pack Leader morph no longer apply a bleed to enemies hit with Light Attacks, or deal area damage with Heavy Attacks.

what do i even do in ww form with the pack leader morph now?

Amdar_Godkiller

Chrlynsch wrote: »

@Nefas has chimed in a few times in the werewolf threads since pts started and new reps announced.

But who knows how frequently the reps actually get to relay the information and feedback they have gathered.

He appears to agree with the nerfs and hasn't played WW in years, so really he's the opposite of a WW class rep.

Qbiken

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

@Nefas has chimed in a few times in the werewolf threads since pts started and new reps announced.

But who knows how frequently the reps actually get to relay the information and feedback they have gathered.

He appears to agree with the nerfs and hasn't played WW in years, so really he's the opposite of a WW class rep.

you can ask any "pve-rep" and they´ll all say werewolf is overperforming to a certain degree, even though werewolf has never been used in any serious raiding scene.....

Really sad that none of the reps (or devs) have little to no insight in neither the PvE or PvP perspective of werewolf, hence why the feedback and responses to werewolf get so skewed.

Mr_Wolfe

Y'know, I stopped playing (and canceled my plus membership/stopped buying crowns) because the devs were constantly ignoring feedback and puling blatant underhanded cash grabs.

Now I finally decided to give the game another chance, and it seems they're still at it. Interesting that they decided to gut werewolf now that they're selling cures in the crown store.

Dubhliam wrote: »

Since we are talking about WW tanking here, I'd like to point out that the Tormentor set does not proc from the WW Pounce skill.

It seems as if the game does not count Pounce as a gap closer?

I organised a WW roleplay normal trial some time ago, and the fact that tanks could not hold aggro even with Tormentor kind of ruined the experience.

I don't think that WW should inherently have tanking embedded into their skillset, but I also think that Tormentor is not supposed to discriminate.

It's intentional.

This has been an issue for years, and seems to get brought up every few months, but the devs have only addressed it maybe twice in that time. Once to say that they didn't want AOE taunts to be a thing in this game, (Pounce has a morph that does AOE damage. No word on why they couldn't just exclude that and have the single target damage still proc Tormentor.) and once to say that werewolves "shouldn't tank." (Despite having just introduced changes that increased WW's resistances and healing while nerfing their damage.) It's dumb, but unlikely to change.

As far as doing a WW trial though, it is possible. (Or at least it was last time I tried it, which was several patches ago.) Doing endgame stuff with an all WW group requires a different approach though. Try having whoever pulls aggro turtle up and focus on defense/healing while the rest of the pack lays into the boss, trading off as the boss switches targets. It's not as simple as having everyone stand in formation while the one guy who knows the mechanics tanks and everybody else just spams rotations, but IMO it's a lot more dynamic and fun. The one upside to werewolf is that they can do a little bit of everything (DPS, Tank, and Heal), they're just not especially good at any of it.

SosRuvaak

-17% tho
Wth did that idea come from.

Sharee

For what its worth, i took my WW for a spin last night, and it was actually fine. Survivability is down to about where it was before the heal got the last huge buff (heal is still strong, but cant be used as often), offense may be weaker, too - however, i found that the opponents are now easier to take down. The nerfs to sets, protective, sorc shields, etc. are showing. I actually took a sorc down 1v1 that i know i would have fought to a standstill last patch.

YMMW, of course.

(salvation/shacklebreaker/chudan, 5H, DW/SS orc DK)

Qbiken

While two days worth of testing ain´t much to draw any major conclusions from (even though I spend quite a lot of time on the PTS testing werewolf out this patch) I´m still trying to figure out what went through the developers mind when they made these Changes (speaking purely from a PvP Point of view). So far I´ve done a few hours in, Cyrodil (CP-Campaign), IC (CP) and a few battlegrounds on my werewolf. Done a bit of dueling too, but not that much. Been using similar setup to what I used last patch with a few changes.

To understand my perspective, I play a solo-setup (aka, I can´t expect to be assisted by a healer) with focus on "permawolf" where the goal is to utilize werewolf form for as much as possible.

My opinion so far:

Hircine´s Bounty (with morphs):
While I agree with Sharee about the heal still being potent, the cost of the heal is way too much. Depending on what class and race you´re on your werewolf, it will cost anywhere between 5,4 - 5,7k magicka, which makes it the 2nd most costly skill in the game. The amount of investment you´ve to put into sustaining your selfheal is absolutely ridicilous. No other stamina based class or setup are forced to make that investment into their off-stat in order to heal. The cost of the heal needs to be reverted, end of story.

Bleed-damage:
Probably the biggest hit to werewolf damage. With bleed not ignoring resistance, it´s so obvious how weak the sustained pressure is from werewolf. This becomes even more obvious when you fight someone using Vigor or Rapid Regen since your DoT´s can´t outdamage neither of these healing abilites. The 25% damage buff to the berserker bleed can´t even be called a compensation......
Make the werewolf bleed a unique bleed that continues to ignore resistance. Make werewolf to ultimate counter for "tanky-builds" as they´re supposed to be.

Light attack damage:
Another ridicilously un-neccessary nerf. I´ve lost count of how many times ZOS have nerfed werewolf light attack damage. There´s no reason to do this whatsoever. Just swallow the pride and revert this change too.

Summary:
As it stands right now, werewolfs has worse defense, offense and sustain than more or less any non-werewolf setup. I could understand if ZOS wanted to reduce werewolf´s ability to withstand alot of incoming damage by reducing their defensive capacities, but in return giving them significantly more offensive power. But when I see ZOS nerfing both ther survivability and offensive capacities I´m not sure why I would even bother playing werewolf when it doesn´t give me any advantage in a combat situation. Werewolf is in such a sad state that you could even allow them in official dueling tournaments because they´re not unbalanced or "cheesy" in 1v1 anymore.

The fun aspect of werewolf (PvP) has always been the theorycrafting with combining different sets to make it work somehow. By changing the way the heal scaled in Wolfhunter, ZOS opened up for a lot more build-diversity since you were no longer forced into running Pelinal if you wanted to have a decent self-heal. But every single patch after that, the amount of viable builds for solo-play (permawolf) has been reduced more and more for each patch. And during the scalebreaker PTS I´ve only seen 1-2 setups that can sustain and be viable in open world PvP from a solo perspective.

The statement/vision that werewolf should feel "25% more powerful" couldn´t be further away from the truth at this point. What makes it even worse is the constant lack of feedback from the developers regarding the subject, and how you keep ignoring all the feedback that is given.

ccfeeling

Qbiken wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

@Nefas has chimed in a few times in the werewolf threads since pts started and new reps announced.

But who knows how frequently the reps actually get to relay the information and feedback they have gathered.

He appears to agree with the nerfs and hasn't played WW in years, so really he's the opposite of a WW class rep.

you can ask any "pve-rep" and they´ll all say werewolf is overperforming to a certain degree, even though werewolf has never been used in any serious raiding scene.....

Really sad that none of the reps (or devs) have little to no insight in neither the PvE or PvP perspective of werewolf, hence why the feedback and responses to werewolf get so skewed.

Still OP ? Sounds cool .

Jaraal

Qbiken wrote: »

But when I see ZOS nerfing both ther survivability and offensive capacities I´m not sure why I would even bother playing werewolf when it doesn´t give me any advantage in a combat situation.

Exactly this. If it's not competitive, the only people playing it will be RPers..... which is a very small percentage of the player base.

Why they work so hard to make their game unattractive is beyond me. Definitely "killing it", in the worst way.

Katahdin

I run 11K magicka on my STAMblade.

Let me repeat, my STAMBLADE

MAG characters DON'T RUN WEREWOLF

5K mag for heals is so beyond rediculous.
Get in a bad situation and you can hit that twice and if your lucky, survive. Mag regen is low, because, you know, STAM. Get any further dots on you and you're dead.

Wolfchild07

In <50 BGs the heal barely makes the health bar move.

Also, players noobier than me still die...players that know what they're doing still kill me.
So nothing changed really in <50 which is presumably where the problems were? Wanna revert the changes ZOS and make packleader what it was? I know the pets made it difficult to target the werewolf but people should know that you can tab target by now.