[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

Chrlynsch

ccfeeling wrote: »

Who is the WW class Rep?
If these changes go live, all pve ww will be dead, we need your help

Why do you say pve wolf will be dead?

Jaraal

Chrlynsch wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Who is the WW class Rep?
If these changes go live, all pve ww will be dead, we need your help

Why do you say pve wolf will be dead?

I can't speak for him/her, but I played my werewolf on test with the new changes, and it's just not worth it. Being locked into a rigid skill set that is far less effective than my regular Nightblade is just a waste of time. Plus my wolf is even more useless in groups than before, and won't be invited to any trials.

The only use for werewolf now will be strictly role playing. The skill points will be much more useful elsewhere.

Chrlynsch

Jaraal wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Who is the WW class Rep?
If these changes go live, all pve ww will be dead, we need your help

Why do you say pve wolf will be dead?

I can't speak for him/her, but I played my werewolf on test with the new changes, and it's just not worth it. Being locked into a rigid skill set that is far less effective than my regular Nightblade is just a waste of time. Plus my wolf is even more useless in groups than before, and won't be invited to any trials.

The only use for werewolf now will be strictly role playing. The skill points will be much more useful elsewhere.

I really didn't notice huge a change in performance in pve after going from pack leader to Berserker.

What numbers were you pulling?

Jaraal

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Who is the WW class Rep?
If these changes go live, all pve ww will be dead, we need your help

Why do you say pve wolf will be dead?

I can't speak for him/her, but I played my werewolf on test with the new changes, and it's just not worth it. Being locked into a rigid skill set that is far less effective than my regular Nightblade is just a waste of time. Plus my wolf is even more useless in groups than before, and won't be invited to any trials.

The only use for werewolf now will be strictly role playing. The skill points will be much more useful elsewhere.

I really didn't notice huge a change in performance in pve after going from pack leader to Berserker.

What numbers were you pulling?

I haven't tried it on a dummy, just my regular public dungeon route. It takes nearly twice as long to kill groups of trash, and much longer to kill bosses. 15% damage reduction from Minor Maim (and snare that doesn't even work on bosses) has no comparison to the lack of DPS from the nerfed pets as well as my complete loss of bleed and 17% LA damage reduction. I can't tell the pets to go focus casters while I tank any more, their attacks are so random that their effectiveness is lost. They are buggy and wander off and teleport back, or stand inside of each other. Plus I have to heal more often with the reduction in heal effectiveness....... it's just not worth the effort to me. I can just press R again or stop eating, and go back to my regular Nightblade self and clear the dungeon faster. And I don't have to waste time Devouring or worrying about keeping the timer up.

The damage reduction and dumbing down of the dires basically just sucked the fun out of werewolfing.

Tsar_Gekkou

The least they could do now that they're gutting werewolf is make it a toggle or lower the cost by a large amount.

ccfeeling

Same gear , Kena , Relequeen , Bloodmoon

Wolfhunter - 42k
Nerfmire - 37k
Coming patch - IDK

Chrlynsch , that's impressive you made some good parser results , but that's what I hit in the console .

I have changed 4 different classes WW back to the normal stam dps due to the dps lost and fit my guild trial progression , if the new parser drop below 37k , I will change my last templar WW as well .

If you guys feel there are no big impacts to WW since Nerfmire , I think I am the main problem lol .

cmvet

ccfeeling wrote: »

Same gear , Kena , Relequeen , Bloodmoon

Wolfhunter - 42k
Nerfmire - 37k
Coming patch - IDK

Chrlynsch , that's impressive you made some good parser results , but that's what I hit in the console .

I have changed 4 different classes WW back to the normal stam dps due to the dps lost and fit my guild trial progression , if the new parser drop below 37k , I will change my last templar WW as well .

If you guys feel there are no big impacts to WW since Nerfmire , I think I am the main problem lol .

Here is my parse for various werewolf sets following Elsweyr on the 25mil raid dummy.
https://youtu.be/YpAZadgfNHg
Essentially 70k dps on console, in sub optimal gear (purles, only 1 bloodthirsty, no kena) running relquen + blood moon + selene. Will also retest when changes go live as I'm not on pts.

Shortb0y

1. Up time... It would be good if the time we get from hitting mobs was increased. This would mean stopping in battle to feed would not be such a hassle. People standing in the way or even my own dire wolves have cost me a transformation on mor than one occasion.
2. Wolf colour... Yes it is only window dressing but being able to change fur colour would make WW more interesting. If I could suggest there is a plain coat model and a two tone model (or strips etc) again so there is more variation.

I am a casual WW player so I understand if these are not top priority for keen WW players.

cmvet

Shortb0y wrote: »

1. Up time... It would be good if the time we get from hitting mobs was increased. This would mean stopping in battle to feed would not be such a hassle. People standing in the way or even my own dire wolves have cost me a transformation on mor than one occasion.
2. Wolf colour... Yes it is only window dressing but being able to change fur colour would make WW more interesting. If I could suggest there is a plain coat model and a two tone model (or strips etc) again so there is more variation.

I am a casual WW player so I understand if these are not top priority for keen WW players.

How about not losing transformation during load screens? Seems simple but how many times do people lose werewolf because of a "This is an unusally long load time" or when resurrecting in imperial sewers, ect.

cmvet

So lets review the patch notes.

Developer Comments: ".... With our ongoing ability standard audit, we’ve taken Werewolf and set their abilities to be 25% “more” per cast, meaning when compared to a similar ability category, the Werewolf version should deal 25% more damage but cost 25% more....."

"Hircine’s Bounty:
Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 25%.
Reduced the healing to 37.5% of your Max Health from 45% of your Max Health, which is 25% stronger than the standard 30%."
...... Who the hell does the math at ZOS. How is "reduced the healing to 37.5% from 45%" a 25% boost? Are they teaching something new in school these days?

"Hircine’s Fortitude (morph): This morph is now 25% stronger in heal potency compared to the base, which will result in an approximate 16% reduction in healing compared to the previous value."
......Definition of an oxymoron. Something can not be "25% stronger in heal potency" while at the same time providing "16% LESS healing" than what it provides now while costing 25% more.

"Werewolf Transformation:
Reduced the damage dealt by your Light and Heavy Attacks with this ability and its morphs by approximately 17%."
"....This ability and the Pack Leader morph no longer apply a bleed to enemies hit with Light Attacks, or deal area damage with Heavy Attacks...."
......Yep, that sounds 25% stronger......definitely 25% stronger.

"Piercing Howl: Reduced the cost of this ability to 2869 from 3510, and reduced the damage dealt by approximately 14%."
.....Sounds about 25% stronger to me, how about you?

"Infectious Claws:
Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 3442 from 3240.
Increased the damage of the initial hit by 25%.
Reduced the Damage over Time of these abilities by approximately 11% per tick."
.....Ok, there is the 25% damage and cost boost, but oh wait, what is this 11% Damage reduction. *** it no longer equals a 25% boost while costing more.

"Werewolf Berserker (morph): Increased the damage of the bleed from your Light Attacks by 25%."
..... I see it, there is a 25% boost to the only bleed we now apply (remember base and pack leader do not apply bleed), but oh wait, no 25% bonus to light attack damage which instead took a 17% damage reduction according to "werewolf transformation"

So loads of sarcasm in my post but really, how do they quantify us doing 25% more damage while costing 25% more. There is nothing but less damage and less healing across the board while costing significantly more. This *** is getting worse the more i re-read it.

Chrlynsch

cmvet wrote: »

So lets review the patch notes.

Developer Comments: ".... With our ongoing ability standard audit, we’ve taken Werewolf and set their abilities to be 25% “more” per cast, meaning when compared to a similar ability category, the Werewolf version should deal 25% more damage but cost 25% more....."

"Hircine’s Bounty:
Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 25%.
Reduced the healing to 37.5% of your Max Health from 45% of your Max Health, which is 25% stronger than the standard 30%."
...... Who the hell does the math at ZOS. How is "reduced the healing to 37.5% from 45%" a 25% boost? Are they teaching something new in school these days?

"Hircine’s Fortitude (morph): This morph is now 25% stronger in heal potency compared to the base, which will result in an approximate 16% reduction in healing compared to the previous value."
......Definition of an oxymoron. Something can not be "25% stronger in heal potency" while at the same time providing "16% LESS healing" than what it provides now while costing 25% more.

"Werewolf Transformation:
Reduced the damage dealt by your Light and Heavy Attacks with this ability and its morphs by approximately 17%."
"....This ability and the Pack Leader morph no longer apply a bleed to enemies hit with Light Attacks, or deal area damage with Heavy Attacks...."
......Yep, that sounds 25% stronger......definitely 25% stronger.

"Piercing Howl: Reduced the cost of this ability to 2869 from 3510, and reduced the damage dealt by approximately 14%."
.....Sounds about 25% stronger to me, how about you?

"Infectious Claws:
Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 3442 from 3240.
Increased the damage of the initial hit by 25%.
Reduced the Damage over Time of these abilities by approximately 11% per tick."
.....Ok, there is the 25% damage and cost boost, but oh wait, what is this 11% Damage reduction. *** it no longer equals a 25% boost while costing more.

"Werewolf Berserker (morph): Increased the damage of the bleed from your Light Attacks by 25%."
..... I see it, there is a 25% boost to the only bleed we now apply (remember base and pack leader do not apply bleed), but oh wait, no 25% bonus to light attack damage which instead took a 17% damage reduction according to "werewolf transformation"

So loads of sarcasm in my post but really, how do they quantify us doing 25% more damage while costing 25% more. There is nothing but less damage and less healing across the board while costing significantly more. This *** is getting worse the more i re-read it.

Think ZOS was talking about comparable abilities.

Sunra

the whole concept of eso is 'play the way you want to play' and 'make the game your own'. it applies to classes, so why should werewolves be an exception?


This
I want werewolf to scale off max stat so i can play one as a magicka build 😥

Tommy_The_Gun

Jaraal wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Who is the WW class Rep?
If these changes go live, all pve ww will be dead, we need your help

Why do you say pve wolf will be dead?

I can't speak for him/her, but I played my werewolf on test with the new changes, and it's just not worth it. Being locked into a rigid skill set that is far less effective than my regular Nightblade is just a waste of time. Plus my wolf is even more useless in groups than before, and won't be invited to any trials.

The only use for werewolf now will be strictly role playing. The skill points will be much more useful elsewhere.

Yep. Can confirm. Even if they would make WW ulti cheaper or even a toggle, it would be not worth it. It is a big shame imho. Considering that on live server, I was building my character to be good & effective in WW form and farmed gear... I mean I have put so much time into this. 100+ runs in Direfrost Keep to get Draugr Hulk weapons & jewellery... another 75+ in Blackheart Haven to get Bone Pirate weapons & jewellery (I swap gear, dependent on content I am doing).

I do really hope that WW changes wont go live as they are now. Pack leader will be dead & rip, and WW Berserker will be "meh" at best. The thing that hurt the most is even if I am using a niche build and mostly doing PvE stuff, I am punished for some one playing in pre-made BGs as WW....

Chrlynsch

After spending a good deal of time testing the werewolf changes on pts, dueling, damage phrasing and in VMA, I wanted to give my feedback and suggestions.


Many Werewolf skills have been adjusted in terms of damage, cost, and healing, to ensure that they meet the intended goal of the Werewolf experience - a fast paced threat that is a terrifying foe on the battlefield. Activating Werewolf abilities should feel distinct in nature from other abilities in terms of their consequences; they should feel more powerful, but more costly. With our ongoing ability standard audit, we’ve taken Werewolf and set their abilities to be 25% “more” per cast, meaning when compared to a similar ability category, the Werewolf version should deal 25% more damage but cost 25% more. Note this value is subject to change. We're also aware of some Werewolf abilities feeling "bare" in nature (such as Pounce) and are currently investigating some additional variation to help spice up their combat approach.

This seams like a great goal to shoot for. Overall I can get behind much of what their goals are. To balance this way there will have to be some fundamental changes to how the werewolf abilies scale or perform.

Hircine’s Bounty:
Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 25%.
Reduced the healing to 37.5% of your Max Health from 45% of your Max Health, which is 25% stronger than the standard 30%.
Hircine’s Rage (morph): Increased the duration of the Major Brutality to 30 seconds from 20 seconds at its final rank.
Hircine’s Fortitude (morph): This morph is now 25% stronger in heal potency compared to the base, which will result in an approximate 16% reduction in healing compared to the previous value.

First ability up to bat and probably the most impactful of the patch, this wont be short.

In past updates werewolf has had to not only increase its health pool but also increase the amount of magicka regen it had in order to maintain Similar levels of survival that meta magicka and stamina builds provided.

Admittedly Hircine's Fortitude was overtuned and frustrating to fight against as it became more powerful the more "Tanky" T
the wolf is. The ability to rapid fire this ability makes it one of the greatest burst recovery tools in the game. But we need to remember that Werewolf's only reliable unique survival tool is its expensive burst heal, it is without stackable hots, purges, cloak, damage shields, blocking passives, or snare removals.

Remember that similar abilities across the game are useful to tank builds and classes that have other abilities that scale off of their max health, and have reliable ways regenerate the magic needed to sustain their continual use. The scaling of this ability has no place to be scaling off of Health, and costing absurd amounts magicka to use. The werewolf is not a tank or a magic character.


Solution:

Make the heal scale off of max stam and weapon damage. The fortitude heal will be roughly 18k on a regular specced stamina pvp toon (tooltip) but cost 3k stamina, give it the cost increase cooldown fatigue (like Streak and Roll dodge). The more you invoke Hircine's blessing the higher the cost of the ability. This will keep werewolf in line with the new vision, powerful but costly. The cooldown cost could be adjustable as well as the increase%. But I think 4 second, 33% would be a good place to start.


Infectious Claws:
Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 3442 from 3240.
Increased the damage of the initial hit by 25%.
Reduced the Damage over Time of these abilities by approximately 11% per tick.

Good change bringing it in line with the rest of the game's mechanics. A good choice between powerful hot in pve, or crippling aoe defile in pvp.

Piercing Howl: Reduced the cost of this ability to 2869 from 3510, and reduced the damage dealt by approximately 14%.
Howl of Agony (morph): This morph no longer ranks up in 1.1% damage, but instead increases the damage dealt on a Feared target, up to 33%.

Ok

Pounce: Decreased the base cost for this ability and its morphs to 4016 from 4050.
Brutal Pounce (morph): The AoE damage dealt from this morph now deals the same damage as the initial hit.

Still needs something added to give pounce flavor. Execute mechanic?

Roar:
Increased the cost of this ability to 4304 from 4163.
Reduced the radius to 6 meters from 8 meters.
Increased the duration of the fear to 4 seconds from 3.3 seconds at Rank IV. All morphs now last 4 seconds in total duration.
Deafening Roar (morph): This ability now properly applies Major Fracture to up to 6 enemies, regardless if they were feared or not.
Ferocious Roar (morph): This ability now ranks up in cost reduction, rather than Fear duration. The final base cost is now 4034.


Defening roar should grant a unique debuff (dots or direct damage for x seconds) this would give a reason to use the ability on bosses when you have a tank in your group.

Ferocious Roar should also increase the off balance effect for 3 seconds if it hits a target that is already off balance. This would increase the effectiveness of trial groups, while not buffing this ability too much in pvp.

The range on this ability is pretty low and now pretty hard to judge as we have no abilies or visuals to indicate when we are in fact in range. This results in missing casts. Suggest increasing the range to 7m same as a light attack. So if we can whack them we can fear them.

I also suggest that this ability now cost magic if we move Hircine's heal to stamina cost. Stamina classes have always used utility abilities that cost magicka, wings, cloak, clense, armor buffs, regen tools. No reason Werewolf shouldn't have a magic utility ability.

Werewolf Transformation:
Reduced the damage dealt by your Light and Heavy Attacks with this ability and its morphs by approximately 17%.
Increased the range of the Light Attacks to 7 meters from 5 meters, and the Heavy Attacks to 10 meters from 7 meters. This was done to help preserve the same distance from standard forms, since your character size increase was not applying to the range of your abilities, causing your attacks to appear as if they lost range.

The Light attack range feels great, and the heavies connect so much more beautifully. The loss in damage is made up by the fact that you can actually connect reliability on bosses and players.

This ability and the Pack Leader morph no longer apply a bleed to enemies hit with Light Attacks, or deal area damage with Heavy Attacks.
Pack Leader:
The Direwolves can no longer be targeted or die.
Reduced the damage of the Direwolves’ Gnash attack by approximately 70%, and decreased the frequency of its attack speed to 2 seconds from 1 second.
Gnash now applies Minor Maim to enemies hit for 4 seconds.
Reduced the damage of the Lunge attack by approximately 60%.
Lunge will now be cast every 10 seconds, rather than have a 25% chance every 3 seconds to cast.
Lunge will now snare enemies hit by 30% for 4 seconds.
The Direwolves will now return to your side if you travel far enough away from them, since they are lost and confused without their leader of the pack.

Take this back to the drawing board, pack leader was straight neutered. I know the direwolves took 2 years to fix. But they have been nothing but annoying to fight against. Unique buffs or debuffs are the way to go. Why would one be excited to have a packleader in their group? Does it feel helpful, does it make up for the loss of 10k dps in pve?

Werewolf Berserker (morph): Increased the damage of the bleed from your Light Attacks by 25%.

Ok

In conclusion, the heal needs serious improvements, if it goes live we will see an extinction level event of werewolves in pvp.

For pve there is still no reason to bring a werewolf to a trial. Making Feeding frenzy able to be synergized by multiple allies would be a good start (think orb treatment), as well as able to be activated by the caster.

Overall the floor has been lowered this last patch for wolves in pve too much. Some of these suggested changes would give reasons to have a couple in your trials group.

Chrlynsch

[Bug]
Medium armor pieces do not reduce the cost of roll dodge while in werewolf form.

ccfeeling

If WW dps is worser than a normal build in the limited time, there is no reason we spend so much ultimate to transform into WW.

LA , HA nerfed 17%, its not OK, pack leader nerfed is insane , we are not debuffer , we are pure DPS , minor maim is useless in PVE .

The dev team should realize that we already have huge dps lost without WW form currently .
We build it base on the werewolf abilities and burst damage in WW form .

I think most of the nerfs come from pvp perspective against low MMR , no high level players run WW , easy counter , to all noobs in BG , LTP .

I didn't see one WW in a month, I believe i wont see one in 3 months after patched.
I am the only WW in the guild ... WW OP ? WTF ?

In PVE, WW will be back to the dark age of per-Wolfhunter .

Can WW REP speaks something to ZOS , please don't let the nerfs come true .

SirLeeMinion

Chrlynsch wrote: »

cmvet wrote: »

So lets review the patch notes.... So loads of sarcasm in my post but really, how do they quantify us doing 25% more damage while costing 25% more. There is nothing but less damage and less healing across the board while costing significantly more. This *** is getting worse the more i re-read it.

Think ZOS was talking about comparable abilities.

Agreed, Chrlynsch. But, @ Zos an ability that takes 1/5 of your bar space (WW has one bar, no ultimate) is in no way comparable to one that takes up 1/12. If WW had a back bar for buffs, de-buffs, HoTs and DoTs as well as ultimates on both bars, the comparison would make sense. As it is, it does not. Whoever suggested and approved the 25% nonsense either doesn't get or doesn't like WW. The way it is now, they should just put a WW polymorph in the crown for RPers, delete the sub-class and call it good.

cmvet

Hmmmm, how about giving the direwolves from pack leader specific bonuses. Different color direwolves provide a different buff or regen bonus, ect. We have black, brown, and white, make it something similar to the engine guardian pet but with buffs. You would have 2 out of 3 at a time.

They need something. As it stands now, they will be useless in PVE as minor maim is useless on boss fights, and their DPS will be pathetic. In PVP there are so many other options for minor maim it feels unneeded. Sure, I see it being usefull in 1v1, 1vx situations, but in group play its not useful. Those who play organized groups know that there are usually a few people already applying minor maim. Want to run a group of werewolves? Guess what, they don't all need minor maim. Woohoo, 4 people applying minor maim to the same target, oh wait, it doesn't stack.

If i wanted/needed to apply minor maim, I would simply run shadowrend as my monster set. Hell, I'd be curious to know if the clanfear from shadowrend out DPS' the direwolves on PTS.

Chrlynsch

All classes have a unique buff that they bring to a group, while in were form they do not provide that buff to the group. Werewolf should be given a unique buff to their pounce that grants a group or raid that buff.

Werewolf damage and cost of abilites are being standardized to be 25% more powerful and costly. Hircine's heal which is comparable to the tank heals in the game needs to be addressed, werewolf shouldn't have to stack max health or magicka recovery to sustain the single most expensive self heal in the game. Doing so would weaken their attack that is supposed to be 25% more powerful.

The heal should be comparable to the standard stamina heal that is used both in pvp and pve, Vigor.

Nefas

Chrlynsch wrote: »

All classes have a unique buff that they bring to a group, while in were form they do not provide that buff to the group. Werewolf should be given a unique buff to their pounce that grants a group or raid that buff.

That's a pretty interesting idea.

Chrlynsch

Nefas wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

All classes have a unique buff that they bring to a group, while in were form they do not provide that buff to the group. Werewolf should be given a unique buff to their pounce that grants a group or raid that buff.

That's a pretty interesting idea.

@Nefas thanks for chiming in.

Here is the same idea but fully fleshed out.

Pounce on an enemy, dealing x Physical Damage.
You and your group members within 30 meters gain Ravenous for 20 seconds, increasing damage over time by 8%

A werewolf deals roughly 30k dot damage on pts, so they would gain roughly 2.4k dps on an iron target dummy.


I had this posted about packleader in another thread.


Pack leader should drop the direwolves and move to something more thematic.

Pack Leader 200 ult:

Transform into a beast, fearing nearby enemies for 3 seconds.
You and your group members within 30m gain an additional 20% to the call of the pack bonus and deal an additional 8% direct damage.
While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.

Pack leader for solo play would have a more manageable timer but lower dps.

In group play they would provide a powerful boon to a group or raid. That would increase overall raid dps enough to make up for their lower dps values.

Thematically and min/max, you wouldn't want to bring more than one pack leader to a raid or pvp group as their buffs wouldn't stack.

Due to the variable nature and needs of group composition I would make one unusual request. Allow werewolves to change ult morph at any time. So when you make up a new group you can easily establish who is the packleader and who will be Berserker, without a trip to the shrine every time you switch content or group comp (Switching ults while transformed will make you lose your form and revert to human form as it does now).

FenrisWolf1136

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

All classes have a unique buff that they bring to a group, while in were form they do not provide that buff to the group. Werewolf should be given a unique buff to their pounce that grants a group or raid that buff.

That's a pretty interesting idea.

@Nefas thanks for chiming in.

Here is the same idea but fully fleshed out.

Pounce on an enemy, dealing x Physical Damage.
You and your group members within 30 meters gain Ravenous for 20 seconds, increasing damage over time by 8%

A werewolf deals roughly 30k dot damage on pts, so they would gain roughly 2.4k dps on an iron target dummy.


I had this posted about packleader in another thread.


Pack leader should drop the direwolves and move to something more thematic.

Pack Leader 200 ult:

Transform into a beast, fearing nearby enemies for 3 seconds.
You and your group members within 30m gain an additional 20% to the call of the pack bonus and deal an additional 8% direct damage.
While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.

Pack leader for solo play would have a more manageable timer but lower dps.

In group play they would provide a powerful boon to a group or raid. That would increase overall raid dps enough to make up for their lower dps values.

Thematically and min/max, you wouldn't want to bring more than one pack leader to a raid or pvp group as their buffs wouldn't stack.

Due to the variable nature and needs of group composition I would make one unusual request. Allow werewolves to change ult morph at any time. So when you make up a new group you can easily establish who is the packleader and who will be Berserker, without a trip to the shrine every time you switch content or group comp (Switching ults while transformed will make you lose your form and revert to human form as it does now).

Not a bad idea. Would certainly help getting werewolves into some of the vet trials because they would bring something valuable to the table for overall dps. Don't even really need to lose the direwolves. They could provide their own unique buff/debuff every so often. Maybe whatever enemy they have aggro on could be the target of a low % increased damage from light attacks or direct damage or some effect.

This way it only really affects one enemy, can be changed with a heavy attack, and still provides a small buff for groups that only run with one werewolf in situations where you can't pounce due to mechanics.

Tommy_The_Gun

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ? WW has some CC & gap closer build in, and since the DMG is gone from Pack Leader it could get a taunt on heavy attacks & some build in block cost reduction, maybe somehow tied in to pets ? (if your pets deal dmg you get +x% block cost reduction, stacking up to x%)

^ Just an idea. If Pack Leader is lacking dmg it should have higher survivability. Also making so would would be coherent with ZOS vision of this morph.

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ? WW has some CC & gap closer build in, and since the DMG is gone from Pack Leader it could get a taunt on heavy attacks & some build in block cost reduction, maybe somehow tied in to pets ? (if your pets deal dmg you get +x% block cost reduction, stacking up to x%)

^ Just an idea. If Pack Leader is lacking dmg it should have higher survivability. Also making so would would be coherent with ZOS vision of this morph.

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Nefas

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Skoomah

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

ZOS keeps changing how werewolves are played... and each time making it worse.

First... it was high damage but squishy.

Then... medium damage but more durable.

Now... average bland not special dot damage and average durability.

Not good to burst down tanky targets anymore. All kinds of weak humanoid form to make half decent werewolf form. What’s the point?

Xarc

I had some problems in Maelstrom Arena, in the 4th arena with spores/feeding.

Chrlynsch

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Werewolf tank, probably never, werebear someday, maybe.

Wuuffyy

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

Skoomah

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.

Regarding this idea of Werewolf tanking that seems prevalent among some players, it seems completely antithetical to everything Lycanthropy has ever been about in an Elder Scrolls game, or even the idea of actual wolves in real life.

WWs have always been about jumping in, terrifying prey into scattering in all directions, chasing down the ones separated from the herd, and mauling them to death one at a time (and then eating them of course).

Wolves in real life similarly will scare herds into running in all directions, then separate the weakest prey and chase it until it collapses from exhaustion..and then eat them.

A tank has to do the complete opposite of that, going deliberately for the strongest enemies and gathering them up instead of chasing them away.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Since Pack Leader is suppose to be a utility / support, how about making this a tank morph ?

As a tankier morph maybe but not an actual tank imo.

Well dude. Pack leader is obviously now suppose to be the "tank" morph like it or not. It might as well be usuable too. Dumb af comments honestly. Just cause you don't like change or want it doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen.

Nefas was trying to make a point from a roleplay perspective. Calm down and redirect your frustration at ZOS for having multiple personality disorder.